The benefit of an RT is already given in that it provides you with the resources to get the supplies produced in the first place. You want to keep them already by default. But not being able to build one more ARC because an alien munched down one of your RTs on the other side of the map seems pretty arbitrary.
Equal scaling isn't an argument either because we already have the asymmetry that 3 Hives are equal to 2 CCs in terms of tech. Aliens are also in more need of those supply points as they acquire more territory than marines do, because on the alien side it's part of the primary defense while on marine side it's more used for the offense.
The benefit is the same for rts and hives. Each give something already and both need to be defended. I find hives a lot more defended (10 times over) than rts. This adds more importance over actively defending nodes. Each side gains a benefit from owning as many rts as they can. This is not so with Tech points other than denial. A 4th hive/3rd CC means nothing and you shouldnt be forced to obtain each just for an up in unit count.
Equal scaling would be a better choice. Just because the marines can fully tech out on 2 CC's shouldnt mean they get their max unit count. They should have to work just as hard as the aliens if not harder. As you said marines have more offensive geared units while aliens are support/defensive. It will also compound the disadvantage of sitting on one base as marines or aliens with only one RT. With the TP idea it puts the aliens at a disadvantage 1 base - 1 base from the start because 2 (CC) = 3 (hives). Numbers could of course be worked but it wouldnt be intuitive.
Seems like now you're able to change direction in mid-air, in exchange for reduced speed? I don't like it tbh, I found it very frustrating. I would rather have low air control when I'm going fast than have high air control but lose speed for unclear reasons.
No, but the most successful additions to this mod have a chance of being included to Vanilla NS2. This mod is a great way to test new features and ideas without utterly breaking the vanilla NS2 game in the process.
As far as I'm concerned 90% of this mod can be considered a succesful addition :P
I'm particularly hoping the alien tech system overhaul (biomass, upgrade overhaul) in particular makes it in, it's so much superior to the current one.
I think RisingSun's idea of rt-based supply caps is interesting. With the right base cap (which I think there should be) and the right values (which don't need to be the same for both sides), I think it could be an effective way of snowballing an end-game to shorten it.
It would have no affect on the early-to-mid game ideally unless there was extreme starvation.
Seems like now you're able to change direction in mid-air, in exchange for reduced speed? I don't like it tbh, I found it very frustrating. I would rather have low air control when I'm going fast than have high air control but lose speed for unclear reasons.
IMO, just give us full air control. Gimped controls suck.
No, but the most successful additions to this mod have a chance of being included to Vanilla NS2. This mod is a great way to test new features and ideas without utterly breaking the vanilla NS2 game in the process.
So the whole purpose of this is to simply add ideas to the regular version of ns2, or is this going to be looked at as something official used in competitive servers/pugs/matches and etc, or just purely a testing ground which won't be used in that manner.
As for making more advanced movement everyone, I completely agree that both skulk AND marine should have some type of acceleration bhop which is simple to understand, yet hard to master. Nothing really comes to mind besides NS1 and hl2dm movement though, since quake is very simple, source engine is very simple (minus hl2dm) and 1.6 was actually slightly difficult to get the hang of to; but that's very similar to ns1
I think it is semi official. It tests ideas but only one functional idea made it in game so far. Last patch the only thing that made it in was allowing the com to assign MACS to follow and weld. So far nothing about balance has really been integrated.
At the state the mod is in there are so many changes that it would be difficult to say that certain changes work in vanilla NS2 without isolating the change and giving it a test run. Plus you also have to consider the fun factor and ask yourself if people would enjoy the change or will it just cause more issues in terms of enjoyability like nerfing skulk acceleration/friction by more than 50% in 240. I like some changes like the idea of merging camo/silence but at the same time there are so many questionable changes that will most likely never make it in.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
the mod should not be taken too serious, but serious enough. all features could theoretically be added to the official game, but for every single one i want to rely on community feedback. i wrote a big chunk of the game logic for vanilla ns2, so i would be the one who would in the end integrate the selected changes / features. this balance mod project has the goal to increase fun, depth and replay ability of ns2, so any changes which wont cause one of those 3 things will be removed in the end. there are also few changes which cause an alternative balance, and not really fix something (exosuit changes for example), those should be in the category fun (or fairness) but if nobody likes that alternative, it will be removed. thats the whole purpose of the mod, and its extremely convenient to be able to change things that quickly via steam work shop opposed to how the regular ns2 updates happen.
its a very good opportunity to influence the future development of ns2
It pleases me to see some prominent members of the community getting involved in the promotion of this beauty That can only bode well for the future.
Joined the group, I'll definitely be on the lookout for some games.
Ok I just joined the group, so I subscribe to the mod and enable it when joining any server running it, and disable it when i want to play normally? Or is it like any regular mod where if i go on a server not using it, it doesn't mount properly. Just a question cause last time I did any type of testing/helping for a game we had two different clients one for regular and one for testing. And question 2, this won't change any type of in-game settings or anything right? Cause I'm paranoid like crazy lol
Also I'm a competitive player, so I hope I can contribute a bit but I'm not sure if anything I say will help towards the general public play since I have that always play to win mindset :P Hope to see you guys soon
The mod is mounted automatically. It's really just like joining a Combat mod server or any other game mode. If you subscribed to the mod in the workshop, it will update as soon as there is a new version available. Otherwise it will update as soon as you join the server.
Any chance we will be able to change upgrades? Feels kind of annoying being stuck on an upgrade, sometimes it's useful to swap it out for something else as circumstances change. Perhaps re-evolving an upgrade could cost a small p.res fee? Also, any progression towards keeping upgrades auto-evolved upon spawning? I know that's something a lot of players want for sure.
Lastly, regen feels pretty great on skulks but pretty lacklustre on everything else. I was giving it a whirl on the fade but it just heals too slow to be of any use. It's way faster to just cycle between hive and frontline.
Ok after playing a bit today I'm going to break down the things I notice in a what I like and what I didn't like!
What I Like:
Faster building of macs/arcs
The new way to control jetpacks in the air with the mouse, and tapping jetpack to control the height
Being able to jump slightly higher as a marine
Keeping celerity in and out of combat
Shades blocking arcs
Power Surge
The new aura showing marines through walls for aliens
What I don't like:
That you can't build a structure to give you a raise on your build limit for macs/arcs and etc, I understand the cap but there should be a structure that you can build for tres that gives you more
Skulks losing momentum when they need to quickly turn around, feels like they don't have full control in any other direction besides forward
All air movement is controlled by the mouse, while it makes sense I feel like we're losing a lot of control of moving any other direction besides forward (mainly feels bad on skulk, it's pretty good as a lerk)
Onos boneshield regens too fast, making it easy to abuse (although I think he changed this right then and there)
Macs/Drifters not being able to attack
Macs following you as a marine and blocking your vision (also some shots don't go through the mac) -- not sure if this is even related to balance testing
Skulks and other aliens clipping with your POV as a marine (aka they get so close it looks like they go inside of you and makes them hard to hit) -- not sure if this is even related to balance testing
Armories not healing armor, guess you wanted an emphasis on teamwork with welding and using more macs?
Sound being muffled when you're at low hp
Things I'm not sure about because I didn't read the change log or try them out or just aren't sure:
New hive biomass with upgrades
and everything else I didn't get to see
Extra health on aliens regarding biomass, not sure if it stacks properly vs weapons later on in the game
Even on Skulk is Regeneration quite weak. If that's the price for having it also active during mid-combat, I'd rather have the vanilla version of it again.
Concerning Aura, since Sewlek himself said that he considers it quite OP:
Maybe give it a little nerf to the wallhack. Make it so that it only outlines enemies that would also appear on the minimap for your team. So every enemy that is in line of sight to you, one of your teammates, a Drifter or parasited will get outlined. So basically the same as the current version except that it doesn't show enemies through walls that your team has absolutely no information about.
You can experiment with increasing the range of the effect in return or give more detailed information about an enemy's remaining HP, but this way marines have at least still the chance to set up an ambush.
Comments
Equal scaling isn't an argument either because we already have the asymmetry that 3 Hives are equal to 2 CCs in terms of tech. Aliens are also in more need of those supply points as they acquire more territory than marines do, because on the alien side it's part of the primary defense while on marine side it's more used for the offense.
Equal scaling would be a better choice. Just because the marines can fully tech out on 2 CC's shouldnt mean they get their max unit count. They should have to work just as hard as the aliens if not harder. As you said marines have more offensive geared units while aliens are support/defensive. It will also compound the disadvantage of sitting on one base as marines or aliens with only one RT. With the TP idea it puts the aliens at a disadvantage 1 base - 1 base from the start because 2 (CC) = 3 (hives). Numbers could of course be worked but it wouldnt be intuitive.
No, but the most successful additions to this mod have a chance of being included to Vanilla NS2. This mod is a great way to test new features and ideas without utterly breaking the vanilla NS2 game in the process.
I'm particularly hoping the alien tech system overhaul (biomass, upgrade overhaul) in particular makes it in, it's so much superior to the current one.
It would have no affect on the early-to-mid game ideally unless there was extreme starvation.
a) Less early and midgame snowballing so the game isn't decided early
b) Faster game ending once the game has been decided
If supply caps could promote b without making a worse, I'm all for trying them out.
IMO, just give us full air control. Gimped controls suck.
So the whole purpose of this is to simply add ideas to the regular version of ns2, or is this going to be looked at as something official used in competitive servers/pugs/matches and etc, or just purely a testing ground which won't be used in that manner.
As for making more advanced movement everyone, I completely agree that both skulk AND marine should have some type of acceleration bhop which is simple to understand, yet hard to master. Nothing really comes to mind besides NS1 and hl2dm movement though, since quake is very simple, source engine is very simple (minus hl2dm) and 1.6 was actually slightly difficult to get the hang of to; but that's very similar to ns1
At the state the mod is in there are so many changes that it would be difficult to say that certain changes work in vanilla NS2 without isolating the change and giving it a test run. Plus you also have to consider the fun factor and ask yourself if people would enjoy the change or will it just cause more issues in terms of enjoyability like nerfing skulk acceleration/friction by more than 50% in 240. I like some changes like the idea of merging camo/silence but at the same time there are so many questionable changes that will most likely never make it in.
its a very good opportunity to influence the future development of ns2
edit: link for the steam group
Joined the group, I'll definitely be on the lookout for some games.
I want to make it the easiest way possible for events to start.
Also I'm a competitive player, so I hope I can contribute a bit but I'm not sure if anything I say will help towards the general public play since I have that always play to win mindset :P Hope to see you guys soon
edit: http://www.steamcommunity.com/id/ezekel
If so, can it be reduced a bit? Finding it a bit hard to chain jumps in areas were there's potential for quick wall jumps.
Lastly, regen feels pretty great on skulks but pretty lacklustre on everything else. I was giving it a whirl on the fade but it just heals too slow to be of any use. It's way faster to just cycle between hive and frontline.
What I Like:
Faster building of macs/arcs
The new way to control jetpacks in the air with the mouse, and tapping jetpack to control the height
Being able to jump slightly higher as a marine
Keeping celerity in and out of combat
Shades blocking arcs
Power Surge
The new aura showing marines through walls for aliens
What I don't like:
That you can't build a structure to give you a raise on your build limit for macs/arcs and etc, I understand the cap but there should be a structure that you can build for tres that gives you more
Skulks losing momentum when they need to quickly turn around, feels like they don't have full control in any other direction besides forward
All air movement is controlled by the mouse, while it makes sense I feel like we're losing a lot of control of moving any other direction besides forward (mainly feels bad on skulk, it's pretty good as a lerk)
Onos boneshield regens too fast, making it easy to abuse (although I think he changed this right then and there)
Macs/Drifters not being able to attack
Macs following you as a marine and blocking your vision (also some shots don't go through the mac) -- not sure if this is even related to balance testing
Skulks and other aliens clipping with your POV as a marine (aka they get so close it looks like they go inside of you and makes them hard to hit) -- not sure if this is even related to balance testing
Armories not healing armor, guess you wanted an emphasis on teamwork with welding and using more macs?
Sound being muffled when you're at low hp
Things I'm not sure about because I didn't read the change log or try them out or just aren't sure:
New hive biomass with upgrades
and everything else I didn't get to see
Extra health on aliens regarding biomass, not sure if it stacks properly vs weapons later on in the game
Concerning Aura, since Sewlek himself said that he considers it quite OP:
Maybe give it a little nerf to the wallhack. Make it so that it only outlines enemies that would also appear on the minimap for your team. So every enemy that is in line of sight to you, one of your teammates, a Drifter or parasited will get outlined. So basically the same as the current version except that it doesn't show enemies through walls that your team has absolutely no information about.
You can experiment with increasing the range of the effect in return or give more detailed information about an enemy's remaining HP, but this way marines have at least still the chance to set up an ambush.
unfortunately this is very difficult to do and comes with some performance drains. i can look into it more, but cant promise you anything
If anything I'd want parasite to give less information than the perfect outline we have now. : p
Lerk spikes shouldn't show the marine outline either.