JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited April 2013
Giving the aliens a chance to get higher tech upgrades on one hive is great, I don't understand moving that limitation to the marines. Since concede has been implemented I don't often see turtling. Even if I do shouldn't the scaling armor of the biomass and t2 umbra help break these?
If a CC dies, do the marines lose the upgrades? Seems like they should for the system to work, since it's not too hard to hold 3 CCs temporarily. I think it's a good thing that the importance of tech points is fairly symmetrical across the teams, since the game is so much about map control.
If the idea is to prevent turtleing wouldn't it make sense to put a3/w3 on 2 tech points?
Moving a/w 3 to 3 cc doesn't make it turling (done on 1 cc) any better and at the same time it will really hurt marines chances for a comeback against onos and the higher life forms if they are stuck at a/w2 on 2 cc or god forbid a/w 1 on 1 cc.
Don't really like the concept of Exos being able to use PGs now. Sure, they got nerfed in armor, but they are still massive DPS plus instant-egglock by walking over stuff.
So as soon as the marines get a ninja PG in your base (which you can hardly avoid now thanks to infestation being useless for actually securing territory and marines being able to instantly power surge it) they can summon an entire Exo army out of nowhere. Might as well make MACs and ARCs use them as well, since there is not much of a logical reason for them not to at this point if something so big and metallic fits through as well.
Forcing a beacon to make Exos vulnerable or attacking a base where the Exos are not located is no viable tactic anymore either because the Exos can quickly escape or reinforce anywhere they want. You can't really hunt them down if they can just warp away.
While I appreciate the Exo nerfs in the mod to make them less frustrating to play against, I don't like the way how they are more and more changed to be more like a standard marine in heavy armor with infinite HMG ammo and receive buffs on other ends.
If you really want to stay with that mechanic, have some suggestions:
- Remove the Exo's ability to destroy eggs by walking over them.
- Let the Exo take more time to phase through a PG than a marine. As long as the Exo is standing inside the PG, a timer will start and go on for maybe 2-3 seconds and then phase the Exo away if he stays inside the PG for that long. From the player's perspective could the screen slowly interpolate to a pure white or light blue overlay the closer the countdown is to completion to indicate the progress of the phasing.
This gives aliens the chance to attack the Exo before he phases away and also slows his mobility even further down when using the PG, so he can't really use it to get instantly from place to place and defend everywhere at once but still utilize it to get to a target destination. Since the big Exo will also occupy the PG for a moment, it prevents an entire flood of Exos from phasing through at the same time.
- To make up for potentially getting stuck in a PG that is harassed by multiple aliens at once, add a knockback as soon as the Exo phases in.
As for the infestation changes, I am still not very fond of them.
Infestation should still have another purpose than "aliens can build stuff on it, cast some abilities on it and allows Gorges to slide faster".
There were more things that it could do, but the infestation itself has been nerfed every now and then in the past. No more healing advantage on it, no more detection of marines that walk on it and now no more blocking of structures on it. The fun gardening mechanic became pretty pointless.
I'd really like to see some buffs to it again, especially since the latest changes to the cysts fixed some issues that might have existed with previous incarnations of those features before. It is much less troublesome for marines to quickly clear infestation in a wide area away since there are less but equally vulnerable cysts that take longer to rebuild once taken out and faster receding infestation.
If marines want to establish a forward base, they can quickly get rid of the infestation instead of having to wait as long as in vanilla, so I don't think marines should be able to build structures the same way on infestation as on normal ground without repercussions. There should be some downside to the ninja attempt. Some suggestions:
- Structures built on infestation start without armor and can't get any armor until the infestation is cleared away, so it's easier for all aliens to combat intruders in their territory.
- Structures on infestation take additional damage from Bile Bomb, so Gorges and Whips can get rid faster of intruders.
- Building structures on infestation takes longer than on normal ground (instead of just stopping the build process as in vanilla), so aliens have more time to react when they spot the intruder.
To revive a previous feature:
-Foresight should be possible on enemies on infestation, but only if they sprint or are in an Exo (both cause shockwaves that are big enough for the khammander to "feel" through the infestation network - regular footsteps, crouching or firing a weapon are not causing a big enough impact and ARCs only have smooth tread movement). So marines can still sneak up unnoticed if they want, but at the cost of being limited to slower movement methods until they get jetpacks.
- auto unstuck logic ("should" always work)
- added additional 6 second respawn time when rejoining a team, suiciding or when killed by a death trigger
marine
- multiple MACs are no longer able to weld the same target
When are these changes supposed to be implemented? Sometime in April, I hope?
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
When are these changes supposed to be implemented? Sometime in April, I hope?
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
I believe after the LAN, the features that are liked most will go into a smaller BT, and then from there after tweaking they will make their way into the official game
When are these changes supposed to be implemented? Sometime in April, I hope?
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
Unfortunately, it'll take more than that for xenocide to be useful. By the time it comes out it can't even kill a marine at close range thanks to A3
When are these changes supposed to be implemented? Sometime in April, I hope?
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
Unfortunately, it'll take more than that for xenocide to be useful. By the time it comes out it can't even kill a marine at close range thanks to A3
like a3 being moved to 3 CC's? BAM! xenocide useful
When are these changes supposed to be implemented? Sometime in April, I hope?
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
Unfortunately, it'll take more than that for xenocide to be useful. By the time it comes out it can't even kill a marine at close range thanks to A3
like a3 being moved to 3 CC's? BAM! xenocide useful
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Played a few rounds tonight of the mod. Feedback:
1) Loving the no-armory armor. Instead of people asking for an armory everywhere they rely on their teammates more for welding.
2) New skulk\lerk movement changes feel good. Especially LOVE the skulk movement changes. He actually feels speedy and much more agile now, got a bit of a NS1 vibe to it. Improved bhop/walljumping is excellent.
3) Auto-weld upgrade. Not sure if I really like this yet, as its pretty similar to aliens auto health regen.
Would really like to see a small welder icon next to people's names on the scoreboard like NS1 had. I noticed hovering over a player shows this is well, but its much quicker to look at the scoreboard, especially in a combat scenario.
Whats the idea behind upgrades costing p.res for aliens? Seems like a bit of a skulk nerf (other life forms shouldnt be dieing)
It seems intended to counteract the pres drain seen from requiring marines to buy welders.
Could have sworn lifeforms were the equivalent to marines purchasing weapons and vise verse. Or the fact that a 5 res welder vs a 10 res gorge both performing the function of group support were the equivalents.
Didn't we also argue during beta that upgrades costing resources was moronic and only punishing skulks in the long run since the already gimped skulks now had waste resources just do perform subpar as the matched proceeded. I'm glad were trying horrible ideas again.
Whats the idea behind upgrades costing p.res for aliens? Seems like a bit of a skulk nerf (other life forms shouldnt be dieing)
It seems intended to counteract the pres drain seen from requiring marines to buy welders.
Could have sworn lifeforms were the equivalent to marines purchasing weapons and vise verse. Or the fact that a 5 res welder vs a 10 res gorge both performing the function of group support were the equivalents.
Didn't we also argue during beta that upgrades costing resources was moronic and only punishing skulks in the long run since the already gimped skulks now had waste resources just do perform subpar as the matched proceeded. I'm glad were trying horrible ideas again.
The skulk is very fast now when used properly, and has much better control. Not to mention with the celerity buff he can reach monstrous speeds, try before you judge
The skulk is very fast now when used properly, and has much better control. Not to mention with the celerity buff he can reach monstrous speeds, try before you judge
The celerity buff that you have to purchase with personal resources.
I don't get two shats about them being "faster" or having better control. The fact that having to purchase basic upgrades is still a moronic idea. Marines don't purchase their armor and weapons upgrade after each death do they? No? Lifeforms = Weapons. Upgrades should remain free or marines have to purchase their upgrades off of the armory. Asymmetry my arse.
The skulk is very fast now when used properly, and has much better control. Not to mention with the celerity buff he can reach monstrous speeds, try before you judge
The celerity buff that you have to purchase with personal resources.
I don't get two shats about them being "faster" or having better control. The fact that having to purchase basic upgrades is still a moronic idea. Marines don't purchase their armor and weapons upgrade after each death do they? No? Lifeforms = Weapons. Upgrades should remain free or marines have to purchase their upgrades off of the armory. Asymmetry my arse.
You're aware they multiplied the res by 100 for better scaling, so your pres barely takes a toll. Try it out before you say all this.
So far the mod is pretty much making map control much more crucial(also making the game faster), and once a team has majority of the map they will begin to snowball harder (this is the RTS part) however the losing team is still given a chance by tons of different things, like not losing tons of vital upgrades as soon as a hive goes down. Also it's to stop end-game turtling as well, marines with 1 CC now won't be able to hold out
I do feel that paying .5 res is insignificant enough that it might not be worth the psychological impact of upgrades costing money instead of being free. Everyone should take upgrades IMO. If a penalty for dying is what we want, we had that before in the form of no res while dead.
You're aware they multiplied the res by 100 for better scaling, so your pres barely takes a toll. Try it out before you say all this.
So far the mod is pretty much making map control much more crucial(also making the game faster), and once a team has majority of the map they will begin to snowball harder (this is the RTS part) however the losing team is still given a chance by tons of different things, like not losing tons of vital upgrades as soon as a hive goes down. Also it's to stop end-game turtling as well, marines with 1 CC now won't be able to hold out
You do know what players did during beta when upgrades costed p.res, do ya? They never took them on skulks. Even if upgrade costs are a drop in the bucket as you say, that'll still increase the time it will take to evolve to the next lifeform which most players during beta didn't want to do. Why? Because higher lifeforms kept the aliens in the game. Skulks are fodder that just chomp RTs since there is nothing else they could do. It'll just hurt aliens in the long run and will have a high possibility of causing passive gameplay. Once you die 3-4 times back to back in rapid succession just because they have a few exosuits grouped together, you'll stop wasting p.res on a skulk too. (Now you're even more worthless.)
Considering A/W upgrades are on the number of CCs along with the scaling health on Aliens, Slulks are not worthless lategame anymore. Stronger forms are more powerful obviously, but it is the case with both teams now.
I do feel that paying .5 res is insignificant enough that it might not be worth the psychological impact of upgrades costing money instead of being free. Everyone should take upgrades IMO. If a penalty for dying is what we want, we had that before in the form of no res while dead.
But this rule only applies to one team and mainly one life form. The rule doesn't apply to basic lmg marines. Hence the disconnect. You remove no-rwd for both teams, but then add a death penalty in the form of upgrade costs for one team. Welders do not count as a death penalty.
Considering A/W upgrades are on the number of CCs along with the scaling health on Aliens, Slulks are not worthless lategame anymore. Stronger forms are more powerful obviously, but it is the case with both teams now.
I have serious doubts the A/W per CC is going to go live. I'll be damn surprised if it does, then you'll see a huge backlash on the forums over it.
I do feel that paying .5 res is insignificant enough that it might not be worth the psychological impact of upgrades costing money instead of being free. Everyone should take upgrades IMO. If a penalty for dying is what we want, we had that before in the form of no res while dead.
But this rule only applies to one team and mainly one life form. The rule doesn't apply to basic lmg marines. Hence the disconnect. You remove no-rwd for both teams, but then add a death penalty in the form of upgrade costs for one team. Welders do not count as a death penalty.
Considering A/W upgrades are on the number of CCs along with the scaling health on Aliens, Slulks are not worthless lategame anymore. Stronger forms are more powerful obviously, but it is the case with both teams now.
I have serious doubts the A/W per CC is going to go live. I'll be damn surprised if it does, then you'll see a huge backlash on the forums over it.
I took upgrades on skulk upon every death and had no res issues, maybe if you're going 0-19 you'll have issues.
The A/W per CC makes total sense. Marines want more power, they can no longer just hold two CC's, the power will now favor whoever is controlling more of the map, and if they begin to lose majority of the map, the other team will begin to snowball (however the losing team is given a slight comeback chance for not losing every upgrade) so this prevents turtling w/ w3/a3.
Not to mention jetpacks and exos can be achieved on 1 com chair.
The whole game is faster skill wise, and requires better tracking now (I'm all for that) Now I don't agree with every single balance change, but tying things to com chairs and biomass all make tons of sense.
Again, try before you complain about it. Sewlek is actually doing a great job, and I'm happy the team is taking the initiative to make some big changes to the game. You want to give more input, then try out the BT, and post your input on the forum. Saying I hate this, I hate that and not actually using any of it is pretty silly. I feel the game is getting to a more competitive/faster stage with these changes
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Lerk movement currently has no speed gain when going from a higher altitude to a lower altitude. Feels very weird going up at 11 speed and going down at 11 speed.
Lerk movement currently has no speed gain when going from a higher altitude to a lower altitude. Feels very weird going up at 11 speed and going down at 11 speed.
It's constant, and celerity now works in combat, also the lerk has pretty much unlimited freedom when moving with your mouse now, and is really great and strafing. Using the mouse movement to aim, you should be very deadly in this build. However he is faster, so you're going to need to be able to track quickly to get the kills
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2013
I don't really need a lesson in lerking, I'm pointing out that the movement being constant up or down feels unnatural and stops me from doing certain movements that are difficult but pay off when done correctly.
EDIT: Your post really is just absolute garbage and sounds like someone who has never lerked before you seem so amazed by what it can do.. lmao. Literally everything in that list of yours was already the case, except strafing now feels less responsive, up and down movements seem less responsive. A far cry from "really great and strafing".
So thanks for the story time about what lerk can and cannot do, but you really have nothing of use to contribute on the matter.
I'm really excited about these changes Sewlek is working on. I have reservations about some items like exo's using phase gates, but by in large, i'm salivating. Nice work!
Comments
Moving a/w 3 to 3 cc doesn't make it turling (done on 1 cc) any better and at the same time it will really hurt marines chances for a comeback against onos and the higher life forms if they are stuck at a/w2 on 2 cc or god forbid a/w 1 on 1 cc.
(i am talking about both marine upgs tied to CCs and aliens upgs costing p-res)
So as soon as the marines get a ninja PG in your base (which you can hardly avoid now thanks to infestation being useless for actually securing territory and marines being able to instantly power surge it) they can summon an entire Exo army out of nowhere. Might as well make MACs and ARCs use them as well, since there is not much of a logical reason for them not to at this point if something so big and metallic fits through as well.
Forcing a beacon to make Exos vulnerable or attacking a base where the Exos are not located is no viable tactic anymore either because the Exos can quickly escape or reinforce anywhere they want. You can't really hunt them down if they can just warp away.
While I appreciate the Exo nerfs in the mod to make them less frustrating to play against, I don't like the way how they are more and more changed to be more like a standard marine in heavy armor with infinite HMG ammo and receive buffs on other ends.
If you really want to stay with that mechanic, have some suggestions:
- Remove the Exo's ability to destroy eggs by walking over them.
- Let the Exo take more time to phase through a PG than a marine. As long as the Exo is standing inside the PG, a timer will start and go on for maybe 2-3 seconds and then phase the Exo away if he stays inside the PG for that long. From the player's perspective could the screen slowly interpolate to a pure white or light blue overlay the closer the countdown is to completion to indicate the progress of the phasing.
This gives aliens the chance to attack the Exo before he phases away and also slows his mobility even further down when using the PG, so he can't really use it to get instantly from place to place and defend everywhere at once but still utilize it to get to a target destination. Since the big Exo will also occupy the PG for a moment, it prevents an entire flood of Exos from phasing through at the same time.
- To make up for potentially getting stuck in a PG that is harassed by multiple aliens at once, add a knockback as soon as the Exo phases in.
As for the infestation changes, I am still not very fond of them.
Infestation should still have another purpose than "aliens can build stuff on it, cast some abilities on it and allows Gorges to slide faster".
There were more things that it could do, but the infestation itself has been nerfed every now and then in the past. No more healing advantage on it, no more detection of marines that walk on it and now no more blocking of structures on it. The fun gardening mechanic became pretty pointless.
I'd really like to see some buffs to it again, especially since the latest changes to the cysts fixed some issues that might have existed with previous incarnations of those features before. It is much less troublesome for marines to quickly clear infestation in a wide area away since there are less but equally vulnerable cysts that take longer to rebuild once taken out and faster receding infestation.
If marines want to establish a forward base, they can quickly get rid of the infestation instead of having to wait as long as in vanilla, so I don't think marines should be able to build structures the same way on infestation as on normal ground without repercussions. There should be some downside to the ninja attempt. Some suggestions:
- Structures built on infestation start without armor and can't get any armor until the infestation is cleared away, so it's easier for all aliens to combat intruders in their territory.
- Structures on infestation take additional damage from Bile Bomb, so Gorges and Whips can get rid faster of intruders.
- Building structures on infestation takes longer than on normal ground (instead of just stopping the build process as in vanilla), so aliens have more time to react when they spot the intruder.
To revive a previous feature:
-Foresight should be possible on enemies on infestation, but only if they sprint or are in an Exo (both cause shockwaves that are big enough for the khammander to "feel" through the infestation network - regular footsteps, crouching or firing a weapon are not causing a big enough impact and ARCs only have smooth tread movement). So marines can still sneak up unnoticed if they want, but at the cost of being limited to slower movement methods until they get jetpacks.
possibly...
although imo a1/w1 with jetpack is significantly stronger than a3/w3 without jetpack.
I second this. The infestation changes really make it seem like a dull mechanic. Less strategic depth and more of a necessary chore.
It seems intended to counteract the pres drain seen from requiring marines to buy welders.
Me gusta.
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
I believe after the LAN, the features that are liked most will go into a smaller BT, and then from there after tweaking they will make their way into the official game
Unfortunately, it'll take more than that for xenocide to be useful. By the time it comes out it can't even kill a marine at close range thanks to A3
like a3 being moved to 3 CC's? BAM! xenocide useful
LOL I forgot all about that!
1) Loving the no-armory armor. Instead of people asking for an armory everywhere they rely on their teammates more for welding.
2) New skulk\lerk movement changes feel good. Especially LOVE the skulk movement changes. He actually feels speedy and much more agile now, got a bit of a NS1 vibe to it. Improved bhop/walljumping is excellent.
3) Auto-weld upgrade. Not sure if I really like this yet, as its pretty similar to aliens auto health regen.
Would really like to see a small welder icon next to people's names on the scoreboard like NS1 had. I noticed hovering over a player shows this is well, but its much quicker to look at the scoreboard, especially in a combat scenario.
Could have sworn lifeforms were the equivalent to marines purchasing weapons and vise verse. Or the fact that a 5 res welder vs a 10 res gorge both performing the function of group support were the equivalents.
Didn't we also argue during beta that upgrades costing resources was moronic and only punishing skulks in the long run since the already gimped skulks now had waste resources just do perform subpar as the matched proceeded. I'm glad were trying horrible ideas again.
The skulk is very fast now when used properly, and has much better control. Not to mention with the celerity buff he can reach monstrous speeds, try before you judge
The celerity buff that you have to purchase with personal resources.
I don't get two shats about them being "faster" or having better control. The fact that having to purchase basic upgrades is still a moronic idea. Marines don't purchase their armor and weapons upgrade after each death do they? No? Lifeforms = Weapons. Upgrades should remain free or marines have to purchase their upgrades off of the armory. Asymmetry my arse.
You're aware they multiplied the res by 100 for better scaling, so your pres barely takes a toll. Try it out before you say all this.
So far the mod is pretty much making map control much more crucial(also making the game faster), and once a team has majority of the map they will begin to snowball harder (this is the RTS part) however the losing team is still given a chance by tons of different things, like not losing tons of vital upgrades as soon as a hive goes down. Also it's to stop end-game turtling as well, marines with 1 CC now won't be able to hold out
You do know what players did during beta when upgrades costed p.res, do ya? They never took them on skulks. Even if upgrade costs are a drop in the bucket as you say, that'll still increase the time it will take to evolve to the next lifeform which most players during beta didn't want to do. Why? Because higher lifeforms kept the aliens in the game. Skulks are fodder that just chomp RTs since there is nothing else they could do. It'll just hurt aliens in the long run and will have a high possibility of causing passive gameplay. Once you die 3-4 times back to back in rapid succession just because they have a few exosuits grouped together, you'll stop wasting p.res on a skulk too. (Now you're even more worthless.)
But this rule only applies to one team and mainly one life form. The rule doesn't apply to basic lmg marines. Hence the disconnect. You remove no-rwd for both teams, but then add a death penalty in the form of upgrade costs for one team. Welders do not count as a death penalty.
I have serious doubts the A/W per CC is going to go live. I'll be damn surprised if it does, then you'll see a huge backlash on the forums over it.
I took upgrades on skulk upon every death and had no res issues, maybe if you're going 0-19 you'll have issues.
The A/W per CC makes total sense. Marines want more power, they can no longer just hold two CC's, the power will now favor whoever is controlling more of the map, and if they begin to lose majority of the map, the other team will begin to snowball (however the losing team is given a slight comeback chance for not losing every upgrade) so this prevents turtling w/ w3/a3.
Not to mention jetpacks and exos can be achieved on 1 com chair.
The whole game is faster skill wise, and requires better tracking now (I'm all for that) Now I don't agree with every single balance change, but tying things to com chairs and biomass all make tons of sense.
Again, try before you complain about it. Sewlek is actually doing a great job, and I'm happy the team is taking the initiative to make some big changes to the game. You want to give more input, then try out the BT, and post your input on the forum. Saying I hate this, I hate that and not actually using any of it is pretty silly. I feel the game is getting to a more competitive/faster stage with these changes
It's constant, and celerity now works in combat, also the lerk has pretty much unlimited freedom when moving with your mouse now, and is really great and strafing. Using the mouse movement to aim, you should be very deadly in this build. However he is faster, so you're going to need to be able to track quickly to get the kills
EDIT: Your post really is just absolute garbage and sounds like someone who has never lerked before you seem so amazed by what it can do.. lmao. Literally everything in that list of yours was already the case, except strafing now feels less responsive, up and down movements seem less responsive. A far cry from "really great and strafing".
So thanks for the story time about what lerk can and cannot do, but you really have nothing of use to contribute on the matter.