My opinion still after reading through the thread:
Concede is fine itself. As long as you are in a stacked overpowering team, expect a fast concede and dont cry here. Make fair teams.
Srsly, its all about the players. They need to see a light of hope, when their 2. hive gets shot down or 2. cc gets destroyed. On rines side, many players have fun turtling, cause they still have w3/a3 possible. Aliens have shit. Why should they play?
Lets see, what changes gets implemented from Sewleks mod. Maybe concede will become rarer.
Otherwise, the players should really fight for a victory and do not concede just because there are some miserable engagements.
Make concede more "cinematic" and rewarding. If a team votes to concede, they get a new objective. It's no longer killing the Hive/Command Station but about escaping/retreating and if the conceding team achieves that objective, it's a draw. These are the objectives in detail (which would need to be explained and clarified, maybe by a short cut scene mimicking the countdown and the zoom in at the beginning of the game):
X percent of the Marines would need to reach the dropship that is present in nearly every map and/or added escape pods scattered around the map. Marines are no longer able to spawn/beacon when concede is announced (so a wise Commander would issue a beacon just before the concede comes into effect)
As for the Aliens, have you ever seen an ant war? The ants try to carry their eggs to safety. So for Aliens, it's about transporting X amount of Eggs to some location (perhaps the very same dropships and escape pods, indicating that the Kharaa manages to spread to infest another day). All Aliens should be able to carry Eggs, and they get encumbered by doing so. A Skulk more than an Onos obviously. When concede is declared, all currently dead Aliens spawns a last time
This solution would break a potential deadlock due to Marine turtling, as well as give the losing team something to strive for (the draw, preventing the winning team from actually taking home the victory). Since the objective is strictly non-defensive and an all-out dash to escape, the game should be over in a few minutes (either the losing team forces a draw quickly, or the winning team wins when the loosing team is no longer able to achieve the objective, so you'll never see a single Marine hiding in a vent for five minutes).
My posts are about how to address the early to mid game to keep things a little closer by reducing the angle of the slippery slope. By the end game, one team SHOULD have the upper hand through repeatedly winning engagements and making good tactical decisions, and they SHOULD be rewarded with higher level tech than their opponents to finish the game off quickly by this point. So my argument is that concede is absolutely fine and doesn't need any change (apart from the 10 minute timer needs to be reduced for when there is a big stack going on and one team has lost right at the beginning... the other will normally not finish it at this poing but gain all the map and tech first, THEN finish it...).
I shall have to formulate my thoughts into a new thread, I think, as it seems that everyone wants to talk about the stuff that happens at the end of the game when it's way past the point of no return, not the beginning and middle of the game, which is really what needs to be addressed.
That would be almost impossible to implement without it being abused to force a draw by, for example, the marines starting this objective in the very beginning of the game, effectively making it impossible for aliens to win. You'd need to implement a buss load of factors here (certain time limit before it can be started, certain prerequisites like losing enough tech points etc.), which would be a disaster to balance.
And even if it could be balanced, I don't really see the point of offering the team that got outplayed an opportunity to force the game into a draw. That would be catastrophic from a competitive point of view, and by competitive I mean all the players who play to win a round, not only the competitive scene.
Someone could make a community mod about this, but I would never like to see something like this in the official game.
You could say there is a double-dip loss when your team loses engagements early in the game. Not only are your team dead but the other folk are now ripping into your RTs without contest and you're now playing defence, and once you stop applying pressure... well the game is pretty much decided.
Yes, this is obvious but it helps my though process.
So I think Roobubba's idea is pretty sound there. Perhaps take the point further and borrow an idea from MOBAs; Allow Commanders to deny their structures, (The act of damaging your own buildings/units to prevent the enemy getting the credit for the kill), returning the full cost.
It adds another skill level for Comms and means that Harvester you just plopped down in front of a marine may be salvaged if you can time it right.
is that another skill level or just another pointless non-choice?
Yay, 90 seconds of wasted time! So awsome. Its just like shooting a training dummy! Look how many kills you can get, must be such a great player.
~disconnect
Would you rather have that for 90 seconds, or have that for the 5-10 minutes it takes to break a marine turtle?
Because concede doesn't exist right now? And we couldn't organize three Onos and some Gorge to power down the comm chair? Then its time for a new server.
@egogamer : oh man i've wanted digest / recycling for the kham for a long time now. What a good reason to have it. I like it
Sounds pretty awesome, I would be down for it. Maybe converting it back to bio mass, or having the drifter consume it?
Anyways, on the bases of the game feeling empty when the other team concedes. I actually totally agree with this, but also recently even after going something like 20-3 and just winning the game normally, I feel nothing. I feel like there is little reward for playing, there is no unlocks, cool victory music or really anything. Its just the next round. Sure this might have been fine a few years ago, but with the way things are now, players need something extra for getting a win.
Examples
League of Legends, other team concedes. Enemy base blows up and exp/currency.
Starcraft 2, still get ladder points and exp.
Blacklight Retribution, winning and being on the top 3 you can spam you'r taunt and exp/game currency.
Though I feel the main reason I feel so little about this game on winning or losing is this. Games are not close. I am either winning or I am losing. Only a few times have I been losing and then winning or winning and then losing. I don't consider 2 Techpoints 4 RTs Aliens Losing. Though I would consider 2 Techpoint 3 RTs Aliens Losing. Similar to 2 Tech points 3 RTs Marines are Losing also. I have suggested this a few times before, and since Ironhorse is here maybe he can do some testing. I would like to see how the game fairs with a passive res gain system which would allow the resource gap to be narrower between 4-6 RT splits.
You could say there is a double-dip loss when your team loses engagements early in the game. Not only are your team dead but the other folk are now ripping into your RTs without contest and you're now playing defence, and once you stop applying pressure... well the game is pretty much decided.
Yes, this is obvious but it helps my though process.
So I think Roobubba's idea is pretty sound there. Perhaps take the point further and borrow an idea from MOBAs; Allow Commanders to deny their structures, (The act of damaging your own buildings/units to prevent the enemy getting the credit for the kill), returning the full cost.
It adds another skill level for Comms and means that Harvester you just plopped down in front of a marine may be salvaged if you can time it right.
I like this, give harvesters ability linked to maturity, and remove the 75 percent modifier from recycling extractors
[..] I feel nothing. I feel like there is little reward for playing, there is no unlocks, cool victory music or really anything. Its just the next round. Sure this might have been fine a few years ago, but with the way things are now, players need something extra for getting a win.
I really like seeing the last hive / chair being destroyed. For me, that provides all the victory reward necessary. I like it even when it's my team that's lost... it provides a nice bit of catharsis and closure, serving to end one game and lead into the next.
I feel like there is little reward for playing, there is no unlocks, cool victory music or really anything. Its just the next round. Sure this might have been fine a few years ago, but with the way things are now, players need something extra for getting a win.
Reward for playing? Honestly, this is one of the worst things to happen to gaming. Your reward for playing is the fun you had while doing so. We don't need unlocks, achievements or any other such cruft. These are distractions from playing at best.
[..] I feel nothing. I feel like there is little reward for playing, there is no unlocks, cool victory music or really anything. Its just the next round. Sure this might have been fine a few years ago, but with the way things are now, players need something extra for getting a win.
I really like seeing the last hive / chair being destroyed. For me, that provides all the victory reward necessary. I like it even when it's my team that's lost... it provides a nice bit of catharsis and closure, serving to end one game and lead into the next.
Maybe if it was a good push, most of the times the exos just roll in or 3 onos just rape the power.
I feel like there is little reward for playing, there is no unlocks, cool victory music or really anything. Its just the next round. Sure this might have been fine a few years ago, but with the way things are now, players need something extra for getting a win.
Reward for playing? Honestly, this is one of the worst things to happen to gaming. Your reward for playing is the fun you had while doing so. We don't need unlocks, achievements or any other such cruft. These are distractions from playing at best.
Maybe, but you can't deny there success. Working towards something is pretty fun. Sure the mods are cool but only you can see them. I would be pretty sweet to be able to unlock different skins for weapons/life forms or buildings. Picking up a different colored shotgun someone just dropped could tell you a bit about the person. It would just be cosmetic, maybe like logos/custom icons on the gun or different colored aliens.
Define "success". Because I don't define success as inspiring people to farm games for rewards or idle in games to get to a certain time limit to unlock such garbage as success.
Define "success". Because I don't define success as inspiring people to farm games for rewards or idle in games to get to a certain time limit to unlock such garbage as success.
Sure when done wrong it can turn into WoW BOT gear farming. Though this had more to do with gear increasing player power, not having it created a negative experience. I suppose I would consider success as something that has a large user base. A good example would be playing starcraft and having to win 1000 games to unlock a cool avatar. Its not something you grind, it something you get for just playing the game. Win 100 Marine games get camo for you'r gun. These kind of things keep some people around longer.
Lúst, Regarding reverting buildings back to biomass, I actually had an idea on the way to work about allowing Drifters to retrieve a percentage of resources if a higher life-form dies/recently died withing a certain radius of it (e.g. 20% of the cost). A sort of a-symmetry to the retrieval of marine weapons.
Any resources that are re-acquired in this way are poured into the team pool.
Would obviously wreck current balance though. But hey! Luckily I'm not on the development team. =]
I had a similar idea, but it did not require the drifter. It just requires the alien to stop moving and like press g and wait for 5 seconds. Though this would require rework on the higher lifeform power and make them all around weaker but more common.
Make concede more "cinematic" and rewarding. If a team votes to concede, they get a new objective. It's no longer killing the Hive/Command Station but about escaping/retreating and if the conceding team achieves that objective, it's a draw. These are the objectives in detail (which would need to be explained and clarified, maybe by a short cut scene mimicking the countdown and the zoom in at the beginning of the game):
X percent of the Marines would need to reach the dropship that is present in nearly every map and/or added escape pods scattered around the map. Marines are no longer able to spawn/beacon when concede is announced (so a wise Commander would issue a beacon just before the concede comes into effect)
As for the Aliens, have you ever seen an ant war? The ants try to carry their eggs to safety. So for Aliens, it's about transporting X amount of Eggs to some location (perhaps the very same dropships and escape pods, indicating that the Kharaa manages to spread to infest another day). All Aliens should be able to carry Eggs, and they get encumbered by doing so. A Skulk more than an Onos obviously. When concede is declared, all currently dead Aliens spawns a last time
This solution would break a potential deadlock due to Marine turtling, as well as give the losing team something to strive for (the draw, preventing the winning team from actually taking home the victory). Since the objective is strictly non-defensive and an all-out dash to escape, the game should be over in a few minutes (either the losing team forces a draw quickly, or the winning team wins when the loosing team is no longer able to achieve the objective, so you'll never see a single Marine hiding in a vent for five minutes).
If a team votes to concede it should never end in a possible draw... however I do agree to make it more "cinematic". My idea is to have something like if marines concede a Self destruct sequence is enabled and it turns into something like marines have to evacuate while the aliens try to kill everyone. The conceding team should have no ability to attack (kinda similar to TF2's end game where the opposing team runs for cover while the winning team gets to get critical kills). As for Aliens maybe have the hive slowly choke to death... idk At least the end game of concede should feel more rewarding like you actually finished the game (AKA hive or comm chair death).
@amoral I would be very happy with cosmetic unlocks. Wouldn't presume to know how a development team operates, but it seems like something Matt or Cory could work on while everyone else is focusing on bug hunting & balancing.
The last thing this game needs is unlocks. Please no.
I have two words for you, gorge skins. argument over, I win.
Frankly, I would rather throw $5 at UWE for alternate skins than have them as unlocks. Unlocks give tacit approval to trolls to, well, troll the game by "working on my unlocks".
I think concede as it stands is fine. I think there are problems in many pub games mostly associated with team stacking (and hopefully sabot will help with this), but also with the slippery slope, and I posted a thread about that elsewhere. Both a matchmaking/game-finding system and tweaks to the economies might be required to level the playing field a little, but these changes are there to address the root cause of the problem, meaning that the sticking plaster (/band aid) that is concede should get used less. Concede treats the symptoms. Hopefully the changes afoot will address the root cause.
Maybe, but you can't deny there success. Working towards something is pretty fun. Sure the mods are cool but only you can see them. I would be pretty sweet to be able to unlock different skins for weapons/life forms or buildings. Picking up a different colored shotgun someone just dropped could tell you a bit about the person. It would just be cosmetic, maybe like logos/custom icons on the gun or different colored aliens.
Would you like some crack? I hear crack is pretty successful! Although I would not mind aesthetic unlocks.
Well structure costs are one thing, but could potentially never been utilized with passive upgrades that work continuously like W3, so you'd have to address all those other areas as well (this was the "overall adjustment" i was referring to earlier) else it would be highly situational and map dependent, via alt routes like vents etc to even get to those structures and bypass incoming W3 marines.
Basically.. it would require a LOT of work to make this change. Many areas to consider.
Ideas like power surges, egg hatching on the hive, and Roo's idea lend to more simplistic implementations with game wide effects.
I think limiting upgrades for weapons and armour to tech points would help address the start of the slippery slope (from an alien perspective).
Aliens can hold 3-4 tech points and close enough to even split on res nodes...yet marines can simply tech up and become stronger.
The inverse is true for aliens who get weaker as hive numbers drop (fewer upgrades/damage options).
I think the main reason we brought in concede was due to aliens not being able ot break marine turtles (never seen marines unable to finish (unwilling is another matter)).
So part of the way to address the slide is to make sure both sides slide at the same rate (based on map control (tech points)).
That recycling is only available to one side has been a game breaker for a while and one that continues to be ignored.
Aliens cant recoup any res investment once they lose an area, this adds more grease to the already slippery slide created from losing hives.
Hypermutation being adapted to reduce subsequent lifeforms evolves costs (ie if you die as lerk you can re-lerk for a lower cost) could be a way to offset the ability of marines to save weapons and reduce lost res.
I dont see the marine slope being as much of an issue (as they can easily turtle and prolong games...to the point that they would recycle IP's out of boredon) and if the aliens slide is reduced then we would see games teeter around the balanced level for longer.
Comments
Would you rather have that for 90 seconds, or have that for the 5-10 minutes it takes to break a marine turtle?
Concede is fine itself. As long as you are in a stacked overpowering team, expect a fast concede and dont cry here. Make fair teams.
Srsly, its all about the players. They need to see a light of hope, when their 2. hive gets shot down or 2. cc gets destroyed. On rines side, many players have fun turtling, cause they still have w3/a3 possible. Aliens have shit. Why should they play?
Lets see, what changes gets implemented from Sewleks mod. Maybe concede will become rarer.
Otherwise, the players should really fight for a victory and do not concede just because there are some miserable engagements.
And +1 for alienrecycling
- X percent of the Marines would need to reach the dropship that is present in nearly every map and/or added escape pods scattered around the map. Marines are no longer able to spawn/beacon when concede is announced (so a wise Commander would issue a beacon just before the concede comes into effect)
- As for the Aliens, have you ever seen an ant war? The ants try to carry their eggs to safety. So for Aliens, it's about transporting X amount of Eggs to some location (perhaps the very same dropships and escape pods, indicating that the Kharaa manages to spread to infest another day). All Aliens should be able to carry Eggs, and they get encumbered by doing so. A Skulk more than an Onos obviously. When concede is declared, all currently dead Aliens spawns a last time
This solution would break a potential deadlock due to Marine turtling, as well as give the losing team something to strive for (the draw, preventing the winning team from actually taking home the victory). Since the objective is strictly non-defensive and an all-out dash to escape, the game should be over in a few minutes (either the losing team forces a draw quickly, or the winning team wins when the loosing team is no longer able to achieve the objective, so you'll never see a single Marine hiding in a vent for five minutes).My posts are about how to address the early to mid game to keep things a little closer by reducing the angle of the slippery slope. By the end game, one team SHOULD have the upper hand through repeatedly winning engagements and making good tactical decisions, and they SHOULD be rewarded with higher level tech than their opponents to finish the game off quickly by this point. So my argument is that concede is absolutely fine and doesn't need any change (apart from the 10 minute timer needs to be reduced for when there is a big stack going on and one team has lost right at the beginning... the other will normally not finish it at this poing but gain all the map and tech first, THEN finish it...).
I shall have to formulate my thoughts into a new thread, I think, as it seems that everyone wants to talk about the stuff that happens at the end of the game when it's way past the point of no return, not the beginning and middle of the game, which is really what needs to be addressed.
That would be almost impossible to implement without it being abused to force a draw by, for example, the marines starting this objective in the very beginning of the game, effectively making it impossible for aliens to win. You'd need to implement a buss load of factors here (certain time limit before it can be started, certain prerequisites like losing enough tech points etc.), which would be a disaster to balance.
And even if it could be balanced, I don't really see the point of offering the team that got outplayed an opportunity to force the game into a draw. That would be catastrophic from a competitive point of view, and by competitive I mean all the players who play to win a round, not only the competitive scene.
Someone could make a community mod about this, but I would never like to see something like this in the official game.
is that another skill level or just another pointless non-choice?
Because concede doesn't exist right now? And we couldn't organize three Onos and some Gorge to power down the comm chair? Then its time for a new server.
WTF so the other team should suffer running skulks into dual exos just so you can get you'r jollys off?
Sounds pretty awesome, I would be down for it. Maybe converting it back to bio mass, or having the drifter consume it?
Anyways, on the bases of the game feeling empty when the other team concedes. I actually totally agree with this, but also recently even after going something like 20-3 and just winning the game normally, I feel nothing. I feel like there is little reward for playing, there is no unlocks, cool victory music or really anything. Its just the next round. Sure this might have been fine a few years ago, but with the way things are now, players need something extra for getting a win.
Examples
League of Legends, other team concedes. Enemy base blows up and exp/currency.
Starcraft 2, still get ladder points and exp.
Blacklight Retribution, winning and being on the top 3 you can spam you'r taunt and exp/game currency.
Though I feel the main reason I feel so little about this game on winning or losing is this. Games are not close. I am either winning or I am losing. Only a few times have I been losing and then winning or winning and then losing. I don't consider 2 Techpoints 4 RTs Aliens Losing. Though I would consider 2 Techpoint 3 RTs Aliens Losing. Similar to 2 Tech points 3 RTs Marines are Losing also. I have suggested this a few times before, and since Ironhorse is here maybe he can do some testing. I would like to see how the game fairs with a passive res gain system which would allow the resource gap to be narrower between 4-6 RT splits.
I like this, give harvesters ability linked to maturity, and remove the 75 percent modifier from recycling extractors
I really like seeing the last hive / chair being destroyed. For me, that provides all the victory reward necessary. I like it even when it's my team that's lost... it provides a nice bit of catharsis and closure, serving to end one game and lead into the next.
Reward for playing? Honestly, this is one of the worst things to happen to gaming. Your reward for playing is the fun you had while doing so. We don't need unlocks, achievements or any other such cruft. These are distractions from playing at best.
Maybe if it was a good push, most of the times the exos just roll in or 3 onos just rape the power.
Maybe, but you can't deny there success. Working towards something is pretty fun. Sure the mods are cool but only you can see them. I would be pretty sweet to be able to unlock different skins for weapons/life forms or buildings. Picking up a different colored shotgun someone just dropped could tell you a bit about the person. It would just be cosmetic, maybe like logos/custom icons on the gun or different colored aliens.
Define "success". Because I don't define success as inspiring people to farm games for rewards or idle in games to get to a certain time limit to unlock such garbage as success.
Sure when done wrong it can turn into WoW BOT gear farming. Though this had more to do with gear increasing player power, not having it created a negative experience. I suppose I would consider success as something that has a large user base. A good example would be playing starcraft and having to win 1000 games to unlock a cool avatar. Its not something you grind, it something you get for just playing the game. Win 100 Marine games get camo for you'r gun. These kind of things keep some people around longer.
Any resources that are re-acquired in this way are poured into the team pool.
Would obviously wreck current balance though. But hey! Luckily I'm not on the development team. =]
edit: blah, @mention fail
If a team votes to concede it should never end in a possible draw... however I do agree to make it more "cinematic". My idea is to have something like if marines concede a Self destruct sequence is enabled and it turns into something like marines have to evacuate while the aliens try to kill everyone. The conceding team should have no ability to attack (kinda similar to TF2's end game where the opposing team runs for cover while the winning team gets to get critical kills). As for Aliens maybe have the hive slowly choke to death... idk At least the end game of concede should feel more rewarding like you actually finished the game (AKA hive or comm chair death).
Frankly, I would rather throw $5 at UWE for alternate skins than have them as unlocks. Unlocks give tacit approval to trolls to, well, troll the game by "working on my unlocks".
The obvious one is to give unlockable portraits or icons like in SC2, based on time played. 187combat anyone?
I think concede as it stands is fine. I think there are problems in many pub games mostly associated with team stacking (and hopefully sabot will help with this), but also with the slippery slope, and I posted a thread about that elsewhere. Both a matchmaking/game-finding system and tweaks to the economies might be required to level the playing field a little, but these changes are there to address the root cause of the problem, meaning that the sticking plaster (/band aid) that is concede should get used less. Concede treats the symptoms. Hopefully the changes afoot will address the root cause.
Roo
Would you like some crack? I hear crack is pretty successful! Although I would not mind aesthetic unlocks.
I think limiting upgrades for weapons and armour to tech points would help address the start of the slippery slope (from an alien perspective).
Aliens can hold 3-4 tech points and close enough to even split on res nodes...yet marines can simply tech up and become stronger.
The inverse is true for aliens who get weaker as hive numbers drop (fewer upgrades/damage options).
I think the main reason we brought in concede was due to aliens not being able ot break marine turtles (never seen marines unable to finish (unwilling is another matter)).
So part of the way to address the slide is to make sure both sides slide at the same rate (based on map control (tech points)).
That recycling is only available to one side has been a game breaker for a while and one that continues to be ignored.
Aliens cant recoup any res investment once they lose an area, this adds more grease to the already slippery slide created from losing hives.
Hypermutation being adapted to reduce subsequent lifeforms evolves costs (ie if you die as lerk you can re-lerk for a lower cost) could be a way to offset the ability of marines to save weapons and reduce lost res.
I dont see the marine slope being as much of an issue (as they can easily turtle and prolong games...to the point that they would recycle IP's out of boredon) and if the aliens slide is reduced then we would see games teeter around the balanced level for longer.