Things like that have to be said occasionally. Usually people approach these discussions with the mindset of "me" without being to look at a broader scope. Wisdom doesn't exactly overflow on the internet.
There aren't enough servers as is. Besides, rookie friendly means a server where rookies can learn from more experienced players, not that it is rookie only.
I have done all those things you claim "good 30-5" players do. Despite that, I have run up against so many people that claim I'm "ruining their game"(Including admins) that I've pretty much quit. There's no servers, except possibly for KKG, where really good non-teamed players can go. I have neither the time nor money to host a dedicated server, and why should I be penalized for being a good player?
Your childish belief that hardcore/competitive-focused players are "selfish bad guys" and should be banned at-will because "we don't care and don't listen" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
I've spent hours and hours teaching rookies how to play the game.
I've been kicked from a green server... for countering an admin that was going 40-2.
I've team switched multiple times on servers to the point where I was shadow-boxing with my previous actions.
Why are you going so far out of your way to insult me, when you don't even know me?
Why should I focus only on the experience of other people, to the detriment of my own?
You're not getting it. A good players doing 30-5's is fine. When two comp players get on one side (and never switch) killing everyone on sight, that's not fine. The difference isn't that hard to get.
You're not getting it. A good players doing 30-5's is fine. When two comp players get on one side (and never switch) killing everyone on sight, that's not fine. The difference isn't that hard to get.
That's not what I was talking to Hozz about. Nor did he say anything about that specifically to me.
People stacking a team together is definitely abusive.
Please actually read my post before you respond to something I've not given my opinion on. I chose not to say anything about that specific problem, because it has already been adequately addressed.
I have a problem with Hozz acting extremely abrasive and insulting me for my honest opinion.
Your childish belief that hardcore/competitive-focused players are "selfish bad guys" and should be banned at-will because "we don't care and don't listen" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
...
Why should I focus only on the experience of other people, to the detriment of my own?[/b]
Contradicting yourself in the same post? By focusing on your experience, to the detriment of other people... you're selfish xD .
It's only natural, you neither have to deny it nor make up stupid excuses for it. You might be "teaching noobs" but let's face it, 99% of them will never be as good as you or some comp. players - even if they played 16 hours a day for years.
ESRB "online play is not rated, experience may vary"
No discrimination towards anyone; just from my personal experience when I was on european servers and tried to offer tips to some of the beginners, I was
1) trash talked
2) made sounds at, like "bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh mcdonalds"
First off, I'm a marathon runner and don't go near fast food such as mcdonalds; anyway going way off topic. point is that was my experience, if that's all you got out of my post then shame on you
What an interesting thread. In the spirit of the what the original poster asked for, I'll give my two cents on the matter as a "Comp Player".
Firstly, I think as many other posters have said, it's important to distinguish the difference between 'being good at ns2' and 'acting like you are a legend of ns2 in your own mind'. Many people fit both roles; they are both good at ns2, and act like they are good at ns2. However, there are a number who are good but have some humility, and some who are not good but have no humility whatsoever.
I would argue, TCO-admin-guy, that your community needs to be banning the people with the second trait and disregarding the first trait altogether. My K:D should have nothing to do with your choices as an administrator, or a community leader, because that is nothing but pure bias; if we both play the game, one of us will kill the other. Someone's going to have the K:D, and if it's got to be the better player, so be it. However, the second trait, the arrogance and disregarding or intentional 'trolling' of lesser skilled players is a behavior which I have never thought unworthy of punishment.
You should not be here asking about "Competitive Players" and how they "Ruin your games", in my eyes. You should be here asking for feedback on banning people who treat others poorly, are rude and discordant, and lower the quality of your games altogether. This has nothing to do with personal skill, but personal social skill and self control. I do not think there is a valid correlation between the 'Comp community' and 'Rude asshats'; there are rude asshats in every spectrum of skill, from the derping rookies to the elegant professionals.
Having been on the receiving end of a "Ban" for "Being a competitive player", I can say that this leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Bar Room Heroes(?) bans 'Competitive players' at will, because they 'Do not want to play with people better than the average player'. (This is a quote received from their leadership, on their own forums).
I would argue that I am a player who is decent at NS2, and I do run fairly high K:D's in public games (although I avoid green servers, for sake of game quality), but I also strive to be respectful and maintain politeness with all I deal with. I do not 'troll'; nor do i call names or act the ass in a public scenario. I think you should appreciate that often when a competitive player joins a server, they are immediately under verbal attack and abuse by half of the server for 'Being competitive', and that by simply having a positive K:D ratio, they get treated poorly, accused of cheating, and attacked by those with envy-complexes on the server.
I would argue that anyone, regardless of K:D, who treats others like poop, should be banned by any responsible administrator. I think you're just tunnel-visioned on the Comp scene because it gets more a spotlight simply due to the fact that it has a K:D attached to it, and the individual players weigh more in the games they play.
Also, competitive players have a lot more to offer rookies in the way of teaching, as we can provide game sense insight, get people involved in comp, gathers, explain and teach them better movement, aiming techniques, etc... instead of just making random assertions and totally 'incorrect' statements regarding the game, which does nothing but keep a rookie a rookie.
TL:DR ; Comp players stand out more, they aren't more rude than anyone else (as an average). Rude players exist in all strata, and often Comp players are verbally attacked without doing anything but simply playing the game due to having decent K:D's or game sense. Bans should be based on motive and behavior, rather than K:D or Team-tag.
Respectfully submitted for your perusal,
All-In | Colt
in my experience of playing many other FPS's competitively, the second type of player you describe is typically a "newly good" person (ie they found a new game with a small enough playerbase that they can be labeled as 'good'), were never 'top level' at another game, or are new at competition in general [refer back to 'newly good']. looking back, the players who have a history of being at the top of a competitive scene tend to already be over the ego phase and go out of their way to help newer players.
Heh, so true. Nothing goes to someones head faster than finding out youre actually good at a videogame.
Anyone who talks trash and generally wants to put others down is worth banning. That has absolutely nothing to do with being a comp player. Comp players are going to play the game. Sometimes they'll be in your server. Most are friendly and happy to teach people the ropes or offer suggestions. Some are jerks. I find there are far more trash talking pubstars than comp players. Just kick the idiots and let people play regardless of their skill level. Most comp players are on pubs because the community is so tiny that they have nothing else they can do. Suggesting that good players should have less opportunity to play the same game is ridiculous.
Ban the attitude, not the skill. If someone is being an asshole, warn them, then ban them. Ignore K:D.
I started a topic about setting up a peer based 'rating' or 'ranking' system a long time ago.. then allowing server admins to only allow players of a certain rank range to join their server.
Since that idea has a lot of flaws , mostly, the effort involved in making it work - perhaps a better idea is to simply count the number of hours a player has in NS2, and if they are over something like 100 hours they get booted. Or maybe just notified that "warning, you are over 100 hours. If you continue to play here you may be asked to leave to join more advanced servers." This would leave the admins open to say "Hey bud, you are too good, sorry but I have to ask you to disconnect. " and if they refuse, you have every right to ban them. Pro players stacking teams IS definitely ban worthy if you wish to keep the teams even on a generally lower skilled server. The pro players have no excuse for stacking a single team, they could split up and make the teams even but they don't because they don't care, they think its funny, and they just like to play together even though they fully know its ruining the game for everyone else.
If you want to be a respected member of the community it does not just mean having a lot of skill, it also means knowing when you are ruining the game for others and to DO something about it (switch teams, split your group up, don't all stack one team). If you are playing by yourself then maybe just switch teams partway through the game. Play on marines for 3 minutes until they are winning, then switch to aliens and see if you can turn the game around. Give yourself a real challenge.
And I 100% disagree with people who think a noob playing with pros will learn anything from getting rolled.. you learn nothing, except maybe "this game sucks I just die constantly, uninstall time!" .. you need to be able to actually LIVE for more than 10 seconds to learn how to use lerk, fade, etc.. Once you have 100+ hours then MAYBE you can know enough to learn from watching pros but until then, please.. people who use that excuse just say that to make themselves feel better about rolling a bunch of noobs for an ego boost.
Bar Room Heroes(?) bans 'Competitive players' at will, because they 'Do not want to play with people better than the average player'. (This is a quote received from their leadership, on their own forums)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play with people close to your own skill level.
Having been on the receiving end of a "Ban" for "Being a competitive player", I can say that this leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Don't take it personally. There's nothing wrong with you, and there's nothing wrong with being banned for being too good for the skill level the server admins are trying to cater to.
And I 100% disagree with people who think a noob playing with pros will learn anything from getting rolled.. you learn nothing, except maybe "this game sucks I just die constantly, uninstall time!" .. you need to be able to actually LIVE for more than 10 seconds to learn how to use lerk, fade, etc.. Once you have 100+ hours then MAYBE you can know enough to learn from watching pros but until then, please.. people who use that excuse just say that to make themselves feel better about rolling a bunch of noobs for an ego boost.
Suggesting that someone needs 100+ hours to pick up on informed strategic and gameplay decisions is an insult to basic human intelligence.
And I 100% disagree with people who think a noob playing with pros will learn anything from getting rolled.. you learn nothing, except maybe "this game sucks I just die constantly, uninstall time!" .. you need to be able to actually LIVE for more than 10 seconds to learn how to use lerk, fade, etc.. Once you have 100+ hours then MAYBE you can know enough to learn from watching pros but until then, please.. people who use that excuse just say that to make themselves feel better about rolling a bunch of noobs for an ego boost.
Suggesting that someone needs 100+ hours to pick up on informed strategic and gameplay decisions is an insult to basic human intelligence.
Really? Find me someone with under 100 hours in ns2 that could make a competent member of any competitive group. But for the sake of argument, call it 50 hours. 25. Whatever constitutes a 'new' player in your mind.. my point remains valid.
You weren't banned for being a comp player you were banned for being a try hard amongst people with a lot less skill than you, otherwise called pub stomping or dumpstering people for your own enjoyment. He didn't single out the "comp scene" for any the reasons you mentioned, he singled "comp players" out because nexzil was shitting up his server, it's a fair assumption to make if that's how #1 clan in NA carries themself around then the majority of other clans do quite the same, I doubt there'd be a lot of people in NA that have nice things to say about ADHD despite how good a player he is.
lol @ ur words of wisdom on how to get good at FPS m80, do you think the cross talked about his travels with Jesus with the same reverence for the journey and not the destination?
when NS1 came out ... everyone was a rookie ... and alot of pro players today were those same rookies, yet now we cant possibly allow rookie only servers because noobs need to get raped by pros in order to get good at the game
If half these comp players actually read the OP they might realise he's actually trying to figure out a way to balance his server to allow comp players to play there without ruining it for everyone else.
The problem he was running into was certain comp players not giving a crap about the other newer players on the server and stacking and bad-mouthing other players when called out on it.
The OP was never about "But where else can we go?" but if you want to follow that train of thought then where do rookie players go when rookie servers start getting stacked full of trash talking comp players on the regular?
They quit.
If they are stacking repeatedly and bad mouthing other players then ban them. While rookie servers should allow comp players to play on them those same players should also realise the type of server they joined and at least be helpful. Basically you have at least two admins posting here about trying to provide the best fun for as many people as they can on their servers in tk-421 and Mavick and then you have a lot of people telling them they shouldn't do what they are trying to do.
@Colt
You weren't banned for being a comp player you were banned for being a try hard amongst people with a lot less skill than you, otherwise called pub stomping or dumpstering people for your own enjoyment.
This is simply factually incorrect, as was explained to me by multiple forum replies and a private message from someone touting themselves as the head admin over there. They decreed, in plain terms, that they simply do not want to play with "Competitive" players. Period. If you've played with me, or spent time around me, you'd be aware I'm not a troll nor do i "Dumpster" people for "My own enjoyment". Your hastily sketched, hate-infused accusations towards me ring hollow against the behavior I exhibit towards every and anyone in this community. Thanks.
I doubt there'd be a lot of people in NA that have nice things to say about ADHD despite how good a player he is.
This is entirely true, nor does anyone defend ADHD's troll-like behavior. A good example is that he is banned on the KKG servers, where I am an admin. I know why he is banned, and the way he sometimes treats others and speaks about others is very understandably punishable by community operators and administrators. He is not 'banned' for being a competitive player, but for the way he presents himself to others and treats other players in the game. On a semi-sidenote, ADHD's actually a decent person... with a very large obsession with the 'trolling'. At least, in my experience.
If I can find a reasonable challenge on a server, that's good enough. Conversely, if someone is so good that they should not be able to find a reasonable challenge among a server's population, than they shouldn't be there. Logically it shouldn't be any fun for them to play on that server anyway, so that would make them leaving a win-win.
I have to say this problem is only going to get worse. Most of the servers in the browser that have people in them are green labeled and the people who continue to develop their skill and play regularly are only getting better where the casual/new people can't keep pace. With a small community and the game only having between 400-1200 concurrent players online at any given time there often is no other place to play. While joining a server and only playing 1 side over and over and going 10:1+ kdr game after game emptying the server is not good for the community neither is banning people purely due to their kdr. Being good doesn't mean you are being disruptive to the server and a jackass looking to pub stomp every one to farm kills.
Not to mention the balance mod where movement is skill based. If/when that is implemented you'll see even larger skill gaps.
Quite frankly i'm not sure what the solution is. Banning every experienced player who comes across your server as I said before is a bad idea and the whole "veterans only server" has failed time and time again, the player base isn't big enough to provide constant places to play. Perhaps a start would be to extend the green rookie label to 100-150 hrs so people know they are new. I know if I see a team of 70% greens i behave differently then If I see none. I think many experienced players would say the same thing.
I have to say this problem is only going to get worse. Most of the servers in the browser that have people in them are green labeled and the people who continue to develop their skill and play regularly are only getting better where the casual/new people can't keep pace. With a small community and the game only having between 400-1200 concurrent players online at any given time there often is no other place to play. While joining a server and only playing 1 side over and over and going 10:1+ kdr game after game emptying the server is not good for the community neither is banning people purely due to their kdr. Being good doesn't mean you are being disruptive to the server and a jackass looking to pub stomp every one to farm kills.
Not to mention the balance mod where movement is skill based. If/when that is implemented you'll see even larger skill gaps.
Quite frankly i'm not sure what the solution is. Banning every experienced player who comes across your server as I said before is a bad idea and the whole "veterans only server" has failed time and time again, the player base isn't big enough to provide constant places to play. Perhaps a start would be to extend the green rookie label to 100-150 hrs so people know they are new. I know if I see a team of 70% greens i behave differently then If I see none. I think many experienced players would say the same thing.
Tbh most players experienced or new play for their own enjoyment and do not feel a need to adjust behavior. If it were the other way around there would not be an issue. I mean there was a thread a while back during the free weekend that had people posting their "killer scores" when steamrolling new players which says a lot. Nothing wrong with this or playing with friends but at the state the game is in, admins will probably not tolerate their servers clearing out due to a few people stacking the same team when comparing them to the large numbers of average players that just want a good time. It's a no brainer. Just how these experienced players play for their own enjoyment the admins on the other side also play for their enjoyment and if removing players helps makes better games in their eyes they will do it and nothing will change their minds because it is their server in the end.
Previously it was not as big of an issue because there were a lot of players to dilute the really good one's and finding servers was easy. At this point increasing the player count will be difficult and with less and less people to dilute these players it will start taking it's toll on the remaining population faster which may result in less players after a few weeks.
I have to say this problem is only going to get worse. Most of the servers in the browser that have people in them are green labeled and the people who continue to develop their skill and play regularly are only getting better where the casual/new people can't keep pace. With a small community and the game only having between 400-1200 concurrent players online at any given time there often is no other place to play. While joining a server and only playing 1 side over and over and going 10:1+ kdr game after game emptying the server is not good for the community neither is banning people purely due to their kdr. Being good doesn't mean you are being disruptive to the server and a jackass looking to pub stomp every one to farm kills.
Not to mention the balance mod where movement is skill based. If/when that is implemented you'll see even larger skill gaps.
Quite frankly i'm not sure what the solution is. Banning every experienced player who comes across your server as I said before is a bad idea and the whole "veterans only server" has failed time and time again, the player base isn't big enough to provide constant places to play. Perhaps a start would be to extend the green rookie label to 100-150 hrs so people know they are new. I know if I see a team of 70% greens i behave differently then If I see none. I think many experienced players would say the same thing.
Agreed, and there probably isn't a perfect solution to this - but right now the situation is so dire admins are considering banning players based on skill. Can it really get much worse than this? I say UWE just needs to designate a few of their servers (lets face it they are almost all empty / idle anwyway) as green servers, rookies only (under 100 hours). And when a new player starts the game, it should open a window in the server list that states "Hey buddy you really need to practice with players of your own skill, want to join the "rookies only" server?" And if they click no, and join a server with players who have 1000+ hours, they will understand that next time the thing asks if they want to play with rookies, you click yes!
As for diminishing the population by dividing us, I don't think that would have as much of an impact as you think. I don't think any of us realize how many people have probably bought this game, played a few hours, and quit never to return because of how impossible the game felt since they were just thrown to the wolves.. "trial by fire" might sound like a totally awesome learning method to some of you but it isn't, it sucks and people generally hate it. If we didn't lose all those rookies the community would be that much larger helping it grow. Also those rookies would actually have FUN and be likely to suggest their friends go buy the game so they can play together. Then once all those rookies hit 100+ hours, they get their green tag removed and are ready to venture out and play with people who will still stomp them, but at least they know enough about the game that they can take their losses and realize it just happens some times, and try to learn from it. People who just bought the game are NOT ready for that type of 'lesson'.
Further, do skilled players really get any better by playing with rookies? I mean honestly, does your marine aim get better by going 50:1 shooting ground skulks? Does your lerk / fade get better by going 50:1 against a bunch of marines who can't aim and don't listen to anything their comm says, so they stay at a0w0 the entire game? Obviously not. So whats the big deal if those living target practice dummies get separated into their own servers until they are ready for the real world? And wouldn't it be nice to not be banned from a server for stomping all the noobs? If the noobs got stomped too badly you could simply say "sorry, there are rookie servers though maybe you should try one of those!"
@Pakars
To answer your bolded questions:
1. I didn't insult you, I explained how I see it. I can see that I might have been abrasive (learnt a new word!), sorry for that. Not meant to be insulting.
I answered your post in length as I was specifically considering the characteristics of the problematic people (as opposed to merely "good" players) when your post comes along which was such a textbook example of exactly some of the things I was thinking about... for me, it was a "wow did that really just happen?" moment.
2. You should not focus *only* about the experience of other people to your own detriment. How to balance this is up to you. I'll just add that how you treat others is also part of *your* experience. And it's the only part that influences how other people treat you.
I can see that "good" players can have legitimate problems, and other people can be stupid admins or insulting asshats, and you may have a different different but totally valid more "competitive"/"hardcore" mindset.
But in the end, you ranted about how the NS2 community has treated *you*. This is reality, this is what happened to *you*, apparently often. Is only the community to blame? I don't think so, but as you said, I don't know you. Only you can answer this question.
You should not be here asking about "Competitive Players" and how they "Ruin your games", in my eyes. You should be here asking for feedback on banning people who treat others poorly, are rude and discordant, and lower the quality of your games altogether.
I do not think there is a valid correlation between the 'Comp community' and 'Rude asshats'; there are rude asshats in every spectrum of skill, from the derping rookies to the elegant professionals.
Having been on the receiving end of a "Ban" for "Being a competitive player", I can say that this leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Bar Room Heroes(?) bans 'Competitive players' at will, because they 'Do not want to play with people better than the average player'. (This is a quote received from their leadership, on their own forums).
There are two problems:
1. The problem when someone is good AND an asshat (=selfish). Merely being an asshat does not ruin the others' game in the same way.
This problem is easily fixed, just ban those people.
2. The problem when someone is good, does nothing wrong, but in the end everyone else still would have a better game without that person. This can also happen.
This can't be directly solved because both sides have legitimate, conflicting "rights".
This is where it gets complicated.
But in the end, it's one person vs. 16 others, so the course of action is still pretty clear.
Still, further action is required, like pro pub servers, matchmaking, longer green time (great idea @ current1y), whatever, to actually fix the problem.
A big issue is that people from #1 are naturally inclined to believe they are #2, and this results in "I'm being punished because I'm too good", "I just want to play with my friends so we join the same team", "sometimes there's nowhere else for me to go than rookie servers", etc - they don't "get" it.
I think you should appreciate that often when a competitive player joins a server, they are immediately under verbal attack and abuse by half of the server for 'Being competitive', and that by simply having a positive K:D ratio, they get treated poorly, accused of cheating, and attacked by those with envy-complexes on the server.
2 scenarios:
a) a competitive player is really being treated unfairly
b) it's NOT envy. People are being aggressive because it's either the correct thing to solve problem #1, or the only way they have to (quickly!) alleviate problem #2.
I'm sure both happen.
First things first, this is coming from an (european, if anyone cares about that) mediocre player that has very limited free time to play NS2 and as such values this time a lot.
I do not mind playing against better players. As a matter of fact, I like to join servers where I know the opponents will give me a hard time, despite me being mediocre. However that is a choice I make, by consciously joining said server with better players on it.
I also had experiences with considerably better players joining rookie or casual servers, and (ignoring their behaviour towards others) can attest that sometimes they do have a strong game changing effect even if is just one of them. I can also verify that this is causing lots of unrest on the server and usually results in various insults being exchanged and people ragequitting. The problem here is that "enjoyable" is usually a different term for casual and competetive players (not only in NS2, but in any mutiplayer game). I would not go as far as trying to seperate the two factions, as I think that both sides can gain from each other. But I do think that skilled players need more alternatives to play with others of their skill level.
That being said, I can also say this is not a problem made up entirely by the "pro" players. Some of you have already mentioned it in some form, the problem is also that there is a limited number of alternatives for players of different skill levels. "75% of the servers are rookie friendly", this seems to be especially true in NA (in Europe, the rate seems to be 50/50 for rookie/regular). Considering how even some of the "regular" servers are "casual gaming" servers where the overall skill is not much higher than on a rookie server, the number of alternatives thins out a lot (in Europe we also have the problem that not all servers have people speaking english, it can be hard to work with a team of french or russian speaking people).
In this case the job is on the server owners, too. NS2 could live with a good portion of the rookie servers being turned into regular servers. I would also like server owners to rethink their way of naming a server ("Gorgestuebchen" tells me jack about what level of players they want to attract). Some server owners have made a nice step forward there, providing two or three servers for different skill levels of players to meet, and cross advertizing accordingly. Just as the playerbase the serverbase in NS2 is small compared to other titles, so the servers should at least be organized porperly. It should be good description over fancy naming. Of course, not everyone can set up multiple servers for the game, but server owners could also set up cooperations to provide a variety for their playerbase.
The next step after that is on the players. If a server that "advertizes competetive play" is not even halfway full skilled players could still join there instead of going for the rookie server that only has 2 slots free. The same applies for waiting a minute or two in case the desired server is full. This way the skilled players will meet up on one server instead of statistically distributing themselves over a dozen servers. And yes, I do the same, not that it is of any interest as I am only mediocre. If the majority of skilled (or rather, if the majority of all players) would follow this guideline I guess they would find that getting a server filled with many people of their skill level in a reasonable amount of time is very well possible.
Further, do skilled players really get any better by playing with rookies? I mean honestly, does your marine aim get better by going 50:1 shooting ground skulks? Does your lerk / fade get better by going 50:1 against a bunch of marines who can't aim and don't listen to anything their comm says, so they stay at a0w0 the entire game?
Yes, it allows us to practice movement and to not waste bullets. When i join a pub I normally SSV 10, put on some music and find the largest populated server with a slot open and join. Once i'm in if I join marines i'll practice not wasting bullets by shooting only when i think I will get the hit, or i'll practice evading as marine when there are multiple skulks on me. Plus by having the game volume so low it forces me to be more aware, to check all corners to check the minimap more often and to hear very subtle sounds.
On aliens I normally play lerk and at this time I try to practice my lerk movement and getting in and out when going for bites.
In NS1 i remember filling up a listen server with 12 alien bots and having them rush me continuously to practice my shot, this is how I practice in NS2 (that and practicing versus team members on a private server)
So you are using newbies as practice bots for aiming? Wow, just... wow. Isn't there a NS2 bot already available? Why not use that one instead of some poor guys who just want to have fun?
As for practicing your awareness, you can also do that on a server with more skilled players. Okay, the penalty for missing that skulk in a vent is bigger, but hey, respawn and give it another go.
Comments
@Hozz
I have done all those things you claim "good 30-5" players do. Despite that, I have run up against so many people that claim I'm "ruining their game"(Including admins) that I've pretty much quit. There's no servers, except possibly for KKG, where really good non-teamed players can go. I have neither the time nor money to host a dedicated server, and why should I be penalized for being a good player?
Your childish belief that hardcore/competitive-focused players are "selfish bad guys" and should be banned at-will because "we don't care and don't listen" is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
I've spent hours and hours teaching rookies how to play the game.
I've been kicked from a green server... for countering an admin that was going 40-2.
I've team switched multiple times on servers to the point where I was shadow-boxing with my previous actions.
Why are you going so far out of your way to insult me, when you don't even know me?
Why should I focus only on the experience of other people, to the detriment of my own?
That's not what I was talking to Hozz about. Nor did he say anything about that specifically to me.
People stacking a team together is definitely abusive.
Please actually read my post before you respond to something I've not given my opinion on. I chose not to say anything about that specific problem, because it has already been adequately addressed.
I have a problem with Hozz acting extremely abrasive and insulting me for my honest opinion.
Contradicting yourself in the same post? By focusing on your experience, to the detriment of other people... you're selfish xD .
It's only natural, you neither have to deny it nor make up stupid excuses for it. You might be "teaching noobs" but let's face it, 99% of them will never be as good as you or some comp. players - even if they played 16 hours a day for years.
It is what it is.
"From my experience"
ESRB "online play is not rated, experience may vary"
No discrimination towards anyone; just from my personal experience when I was on european servers and tried to offer tips to some of the beginners, I was
1) trash talked
2) made sounds at, like "bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh mcdonalds"
First off, I'm a marathon runner and don't go near fast food such as mcdonalds; anyway going way off topic. point is that was my experience, if that's all you got out of my post then shame on you
Firstly, I think as many other posters have said, it's important to distinguish the difference between 'being good at ns2' and 'acting like you are a legend of ns2 in your own mind'. Many people fit both roles; they are both good at ns2, and act like they are good at ns2. However, there are a number who are good but have some humility, and some who are not good but have no humility whatsoever.
I would argue, TCO-admin-guy, that your community needs to be banning the people with the second trait and disregarding the first trait altogether. My K:D should have nothing to do with your choices as an administrator, or a community leader, because that is nothing but pure bias; if we both play the game, one of us will kill the other. Someone's going to have the K:D, and if it's got to be the better player, so be it. However, the second trait, the arrogance and disregarding or intentional 'trolling' of lesser skilled players is a behavior which I have never thought unworthy of punishment.
You should not be here asking about "Competitive Players" and how they "Ruin your games", in my eyes. You should be here asking for feedback on banning people who treat others poorly, are rude and discordant, and lower the quality of your games altogether. This has nothing to do with personal skill, but personal social skill and self control. I do not think there is a valid correlation between the 'Comp community' and 'Rude asshats'; there are rude asshats in every spectrum of skill, from the derping rookies to the elegant professionals.
Having been on the receiving end of a "Ban" for "Being a competitive player", I can say that this leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Bar Room Heroes(?) bans 'Competitive players' at will, because they 'Do not want to play with people better than the average player'. (This is a quote received from their leadership, on their own forums).
I would argue that I am a player who is decent at NS2, and I do run fairly high K:D's in public games (although I avoid green servers, for sake of game quality), but I also strive to be respectful and maintain politeness with all I deal with. I do not 'troll'; nor do i call names or act the ass in a public scenario. I think you should appreciate that often when a competitive player joins a server, they are immediately under verbal attack and abuse by half of the server for 'Being competitive', and that by simply having a positive K:D ratio, they get treated poorly, accused of cheating, and attacked by those with envy-complexes on the server.
I would argue that anyone, regardless of K:D, who treats others like poop, should be banned by any responsible administrator. I think you're just tunnel-visioned on the Comp scene because it gets more a spotlight simply due to the fact that it has a K:D attached to it, and the individual players weigh more in the games they play.
Also, competitive players have a lot more to offer rookies in the way of teaching, as we can provide game sense insight, get people involved in comp, gathers, explain and teach them better movement, aiming techniques, etc... instead of just making random assertions and totally 'incorrect' statements regarding the game, which does nothing but keep a rookie a rookie.
TL:DR ; Comp players stand out more, they aren't more rude than anyone else (as an average). Rude players exist in all strata, and often Comp players are verbally attacked without doing anything but simply playing the game due to having decent K:D's or game sense. Bans should be based on motive and behavior, rather than K:D or Team-tag.
Respectfully submitted for your perusal,
All-In | Colt
Heh, so true. Nothing goes to someones head faster than finding out youre actually good at a videogame.
Anyone who talks trash and generally wants to put others down is worth banning. That has absolutely nothing to do with being a comp player. Comp players are going to play the game. Sometimes they'll be in your server. Most are friendly and happy to teach people the ropes or offer suggestions. Some are jerks. I find there are far more trash talking pubstars than comp players. Just kick the idiots and let people play regardless of their skill level. Most comp players are on pubs because the community is so tiny that they have nothing else they can do. Suggesting that good players should have less opportunity to play the same game is ridiculous.
Ban the attitude, not the skill. If someone is being an asshole, warn them, then ban them. Ignore K:D.
Since that idea has a lot of flaws , mostly, the effort involved in making it work - perhaps a better idea is to simply count the number of hours a player has in NS2, and if they are over something like 100 hours they get booted. Or maybe just notified that "warning, you are over 100 hours. If you continue to play here you may be asked to leave to join more advanced servers." This would leave the admins open to say "Hey bud, you are too good, sorry but I have to ask you to disconnect. " and if they refuse, you have every right to ban them. Pro players stacking teams IS definitely ban worthy if you wish to keep the teams even on a generally lower skilled server. The pro players have no excuse for stacking a single team, they could split up and make the teams even but they don't because they don't care, they think its funny, and they just like to play together even though they fully know its ruining the game for everyone else.
If you want to be a respected member of the community it does not just mean having a lot of skill, it also means knowing when you are ruining the game for others and to DO something about it (switch teams, split your group up, don't all stack one team). If you are playing by yourself then maybe just switch teams partway through the game. Play on marines for 3 minutes until they are winning, then switch to aliens and see if you can turn the game around. Give yourself a real challenge.
And I 100% disagree with people who think a noob playing with pros will learn anything from getting rolled.. you learn nothing, except maybe "this game sucks I just die constantly, uninstall time!" .. you need to be able to actually LIVE for more than 10 seconds to learn how to use lerk, fade, etc.. Once you have 100+ hours then MAYBE you can know enough to learn from watching pros but until then, please.. people who use that excuse just say that to make themselves feel better about rolling a bunch of noobs for an ego boost.
Don't take it personally. There's nothing wrong with you, and there's nothing wrong with being banned for being too good for the skill level the server admins are trying to cater to.
Suggesting that someone needs 100+ hours to pick up on informed strategic and gameplay decisions is an insult to basic human intelligence.
You need to go work in customer service....... then come back and try saying that....
Really? Find me someone with under 100 hours in ns2 that could make a competent member of any competitive group. But for the sake of argument, call it 50 hours. 25. Whatever constitutes a 'new' player in your mind.. my point remains valid.
You weren't banned for being a comp player you were banned for being a try hard amongst people with a lot less skill than you, otherwise called pub stomping or dumpstering people for your own enjoyment. He didn't single out the "comp scene" for any the reasons you mentioned, he singled "comp players" out because nexzil was shitting up his server, it's a fair assumption to make if that's how #1 clan in NA carries themself around then the majority of other clans do quite the same, I doubt there'd be a lot of people in NA that have nice things to say about ADHD despite how good a player he is.
@nezz
lol @ ur words of wisdom on how to get good at FPS m80, do you think the cross talked about his travels with Jesus with the same reverence for the journey and not the destination?
He plays on Mavick's server occasionally and the people there don't mind him at all or at least the regulars of the server.
There's really no such thing as pub stomping when it is just a single person unless you are having a group of them doing it together.
The problem he was running into was certain comp players not giving a crap about the other newer players on the server and stacking and bad-mouthing other players when called out on it.
The OP was never about "But where else can we go?" but if you want to follow that train of thought then where do rookie players go when rookie servers start getting stacked full of trash talking comp players on the regular?
They quit.
If they are stacking repeatedly and bad mouthing other players then ban them. While rookie servers should allow comp players to play on them those same players should also realise the type of server they joined and at least be helpful. Basically you have at least two admins posting here about trying to provide the best fun for as many people as they can on their servers in tk-421 and Mavick and then you have a lot of people telling them they shouldn't do what they are trying to do.
To reply at the directly "To Me" remarks made after my previous posting,
This is simply factually incorrect, as was explained to me by multiple forum replies and a private message from someone touting themselves as the head admin over there. They decreed, in plain terms, that they simply do not want to play with "Competitive" players. Period. If you've played with me, or spent time around me, you'd be aware I'm not a troll nor do i "Dumpster" people for "My own enjoyment". Your hastily sketched, hate-infused accusations towards me ring hollow against the behavior I exhibit towards every and anyone in this community. Thanks.
This is entirely true, nor does anyone defend ADHD's troll-like behavior. A good example is that he is banned on the KKG servers, where I am an admin. I know why he is banned, and the way he sometimes treats others and speaks about others is very understandably punishable by community operators and administrators. He is not 'banned' for being a competitive player, but for the way he presents himself to others and treats other players in the game. On a semi-sidenote, ADHD's actually a decent person... with a very large obsession with the 'trolling'. At least, in my experience.
Thank you for your support, WilzZz.
Respectfully,
Colt
Not to mention the balance mod where movement is skill based. If/when that is implemented you'll see even larger skill gaps.
Quite frankly i'm not sure what the solution is. Banning every experienced player who comes across your server as I said before is a bad idea and the whole "veterans only server" has failed time and time again, the player base isn't big enough to provide constant places to play. Perhaps a start would be to extend the green rookie label to 100-150 hrs so people know they are new. I know if I see a team of 70% greens i behave differently then If I see none. I think many experienced players would say the same thing.
Tbh most players experienced or new play for their own enjoyment and do not feel a need to adjust behavior. If it were the other way around there would not be an issue. I mean there was a thread a while back during the free weekend that had people posting their "killer scores" when steamrolling new players which says a lot. Nothing wrong with this or playing with friends but at the state the game is in, admins will probably not tolerate their servers clearing out due to a few people stacking the same team when comparing them to the large numbers of average players that just want a good time. It's a no brainer. Just how these experienced players play for their own enjoyment the admins on the other side also play for their enjoyment and if removing players helps makes better games in their eyes they will do it and nothing will change their minds because it is their server in the end.
Previously it was not as big of an issue because there were a lot of players to dilute the really good one's and finding servers was easy. At this point increasing the player count will be difficult and with less and less people to dilute these players it will start taking it's toll on the remaining population faster which may result in less players after a few weeks.
Agreed, and there probably isn't a perfect solution to this - but right now the situation is so dire admins are considering banning players based on skill. Can it really get much worse than this? I say UWE just needs to designate a few of their servers (lets face it they are almost all empty / idle anwyway) as green servers, rookies only (under 100 hours). And when a new player starts the game, it should open a window in the server list that states "Hey buddy you really need to practice with players of your own skill, want to join the "rookies only" server?" And if they click no, and join a server with players who have 1000+ hours, they will understand that next time the thing asks if they want to play with rookies, you click yes!
As for diminishing the population by dividing us, I don't think that would have as much of an impact as you think. I don't think any of us realize how many people have probably bought this game, played a few hours, and quit never to return because of how impossible the game felt since they were just thrown to the wolves.. "trial by fire" might sound like a totally awesome learning method to some of you but it isn't, it sucks and people generally hate it. If we didn't lose all those rookies the community would be that much larger helping it grow. Also those rookies would actually have FUN and be likely to suggest their friends go buy the game so they can play together. Then once all those rookies hit 100+ hours, they get their green tag removed and are ready to venture out and play with people who will still stomp them, but at least they know enough about the game that they can take their losses and realize it just happens some times, and try to learn from it. People who just bought the game are NOT ready for that type of 'lesson'.
Further, do skilled players really get any better by playing with rookies? I mean honestly, does your marine aim get better by going 50:1 shooting ground skulks? Does your lerk / fade get better by going 50:1 against a bunch of marines who can't aim and don't listen to anything their comm says, so they stay at a0w0 the entire game? Obviously not. So whats the big deal if those living target practice dummies get separated into their own servers until they are ready for the real world? And wouldn't it be nice to not be banned from a server for stomping all the noobs? If the noobs got stomped too badly you could simply say "sorry, there are rookie servers though maybe you should try one of those!"
To answer your bolded questions:
1. I didn't insult you, I explained how I see it. I can see that I might have been abrasive (learnt a new word!), sorry for that. Not meant to be insulting.
I answered your post in length as I was specifically considering the characteristics of the problematic people (as opposed to merely "good" players) when your post comes along which was such a textbook example of exactly some of the things I was thinking about... for me, it was a "wow did that really just happen?" moment.
2. You should not focus *only* about the experience of other people to your own detriment. How to balance this is up to you. I'll just add that how you treat others is also part of *your* experience. And it's the only part that influences how other people treat you.
I can see that "good" players can have legitimate problems, and other people can be stupid admins or insulting asshats, and you may have a different different but totally valid more "competitive"/"hardcore" mindset.
But in the end, you ranted about how the NS2 community has treated *you*. This is reality, this is what happened to *you*, apparently often. Is only the community to blame? I don't think so, but as you said, I don't know you. Only you can answer this question.
--- Very well worded. See later. Very well said. There are two problems:
1. The problem when someone is good AND an asshat (=selfish). Merely being an asshat does not ruin the others' game in the same way.
This problem is easily fixed, just ban those people.
2. The problem when someone is good, does nothing wrong, but in the end everyone else still would have a better game without that person. This can also happen.
This can't be directly solved because both sides have legitimate, conflicting "rights".
This is where it gets complicated.
But in the end, it's one person vs. 16 others, so the course of action is still pretty clear.
Still, further action is required, like pro pub servers, matchmaking, longer green time (great idea @ current1y), whatever, to actually fix the problem.
A big issue is that people from #1 are naturally inclined to believe they are #2, and this results in "I'm being punished because I'm too good", "I just want to play with my friends so we join the same team", "sometimes there's nowhere else for me to go than rookie servers", etc - they don't "get" it.
2 scenarios:
a) a competitive player is really being treated unfairly
b) it's NOT envy. People are being aggressive because it's either the correct thing to solve problem #1, or the only way they have to (quickly!) alleviate problem #2.
I'm sure both happen. As I explained, you can't entirely ignore player skill in the discussion.
Don't get me wrong, you're pretty much entirely right with everything else
First things first, this is coming from an (european, if anyone cares about that) mediocre player that has very limited free time to play NS2 and as such values this time a lot.
I do not mind playing against better players. As a matter of fact, I like to join servers where I know the opponents will give me a hard time, despite me being mediocre. However that is a choice I make, by consciously joining said server with better players on it.
I also had experiences with considerably better players joining rookie or casual servers, and (ignoring their behaviour towards others) can attest that sometimes they do have a strong game changing effect even if is just one of them. I can also verify that this is causing lots of unrest on the server and usually results in various insults being exchanged and people ragequitting. The problem here is that "enjoyable" is usually a different term for casual and competetive players (not only in NS2, but in any mutiplayer game). I would not go as far as trying to seperate the two factions, as I think that both sides can gain from each other. But I do think that skilled players need more alternatives to play with others of their skill level.
That being said, I can also say this is not a problem made up entirely by the "pro" players. Some of you have already mentioned it in some form, the problem is also that there is a limited number of alternatives for players of different skill levels. "75% of the servers are rookie friendly", this seems to be especially true in NA (in Europe, the rate seems to be 50/50 for rookie/regular). Considering how even some of the "regular" servers are "casual gaming" servers where the overall skill is not much higher than on a rookie server, the number of alternatives thins out a lot (in Europe we also have the problem that not all servers have people speaking english, it can be hard to work with a team of french or russian speaking people).
In this case the job is on the server owners, too. NS2 could live with a good portion of the rookie servers being turned into regular servers. I would also like server owners to rethink their way of naming a server ("Gorgestuebchen" tells me jack about what level of players they want to attract). Some server owners have made a nice step forward there, providing two or three servers for different skill levels of players to meet, and cross advertizing accordingly. Just as the playerbase the serverbase in NS2 is small compared to other titles, so the servers should at least be organized porperly. It should be good description over fancy naming. Of course, not everyone can set up multiple servers for the game, but server owners could also set up cooperations to provide a variety for their playerbase.
The next step after that is on the players. If a server that "advertizes competetive play" is not even halfway full skilled players could still join there instead of going for the rookie server that only has 2 slots free. The same applies for waiting a minute or two in case the desired server is full. This way the skilled players will meet up on one server instead of statistically distributing themselves over a dozen servers. And yes, I do the same, not that it is of any interest as I am only mediocre. If the majority of skilled (or rather, if the majority of all players) would follow this guideline I guess they would find that getting a server filled with many people of their skill level in a reasonable amount of time is very well possible.
Yes, it allows us to practice movement and to not waste bullets. When i join a pub I normally SSV 10, put on some music and find the largest populated server with a slot open and join. Once i'm in if I join marines i'll practice not wasting bullets by shooting only when i think I will get the hit, or i'll practice evading as marine when there are multiple skulks on me. Plus by having the game volume so low it forces me to be more aware, to check all corners to check the minimap more often and to hear very subtle sounds.
On aliens I normally play lerk and at this time I try to practice my lerk movement and getting in and out when going for bites.
In NS1 i remember filling up a listen server with 12 alien bots and having them rush me continuously to practice my shot, this is how I practice in NS2 (that and practicing versus team members on a private server)
As for practicing your awareness, you can also do that on a server with more skilled players. Okay, the penalty for missing that skulk in a vent is bigger, but hey, respawn and give it another go.