I still would like to see the "green rookie tag" extended past the 3-4 hours or whatever it is now. Was in a green server yesterday with no green players yet got met with several ground skulks running flat on the ground. I left after a overly dominate marine round and a fun gorge round. I still think in general people are more forgiving to new players who they clearly see are new.
And to respond to the person above I used to have it unchecked until I was tired of waiting to play. Usually didn't have to wait long (if i had to at all) but sometimes I did have to wait a while so I unchecked it. I shouldn't need to wait to play a game because 50+% of the servers in my area are marked green. And some like Mavicks server comp players and competent pubbers frequent and the quality of the game there can be good at times.
Unless I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure KKG and guns & lerks are 24p servers, and isn't mavick's pub a green server? Regardless, lots of players don't like to play on 24p servers because it doesn't provide as much of a quality experience as a 12-16p server. I know that I personally will always avoid 24p servers if possible and will go to a green server before I go to 24p.
The quality of experience, no matter the size of the server, is all based on the players in that server. Mavick's, while listed as a green server, has a large regular player base community that usually just plays on that server. There is certainly just as much of a "quality experience" on it compared to smaller servers.
I think you are missing his point. It has nothing to do with the players, it's because NS2 wasn't designed with that large of servers in mind. It throws the balance off completely, giving marines a huge advantage and forcing aliens to always go shift first to avoid egglock.
There's nothing stopping Aliens from Skulk-rushing the Marine base and winning that way. Thankfully, I don't often see teams going for the quick-win rushes, which is obviously good because there's little satisfaction to be had from such a tactic. To a decent extent, I think players and teams manage themselves in this regard.
If I've misunderstood your point, I apologise. I assume you were referring to an early-game situation as opposed to a late-game one.
can we all tone down on the hate?
This is in essence a beautiful topic which I hope we can friendly and constructively explore.
Sure, as soon as said person is banned or said post deleted. I got censored and warned because I wrote "fuck". I sure as hell hope posting regional discriminations lead to the same kind of punishment.
Sure, as soon as said person is banned or said post deleted. I got censored and warned because I wrote "fuck". I sure as hell hope posting regional discriminations lead to the same kind of punishment.
What are you on about? What discriminatory thing did he say? It really seems like you are being uber-sensitive and overreacting.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
*sighs*.
I ment that the actual idea of the topic to talk about competitive players on rookie tagged servers is in itself a beautiful topic.
I also noticed it almost selfdestruct at post 2, but atleast I am trying.
People here in general think harsh words, cursing and the works get your point across. It never does. All what happens is you piss of some mods, and the person you were trying to convince.
@ezay. Take it up with the mods. If your points are valid, I am sure they will act acordingly. I think they already did because I read back a bit and I saw nothing wrong. (Or I misunderstand you completely)
Nethertheless, keep hate outside the topic please, and constructive comments inside!
I for one want to promote BOTH sides. Yes we must be careful not to scare of the newbies. But what do the newbies think us 'experienced folk' do after the gazilionth newbie we teached? We try to find a good match. Keyword is try.
I saw more skill in rookie servers at many times because many non rookie folk think they know how to play the game, and play it poorly. (A rookie atleast listens and screws up less)
Even I have times I am actively looking for good matches with skilled players to up my own skill, and theres noone to be found.
Now I am definitely not as good as a competitive player, so how the hell are they going to spot the difference. If mid skilled players like me can hardly find non rookie servers, how are they going to do it?
The best one I heared so far is convince some admins to be not rookie friendly & get those communities active!
I like this idea and hope to find some communities where skill is available.
Saying to them to just not play on rookie servers is in reality not going to work. Repeating a non working solution will just annoy both sides.
then I have 150 ping european servers with a bunch of people who also don't understand the game (can't help them as I've tried but european players just bad mouth you when you try and give them tips from my experience)
-
The "discrimination" comment being spoken about by @Ezay is this. ^^^^^
Unless I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure KKG and guns & lerks are 24p servers, and isn't mavick's pub a green server? Regardless, lots of players don't like to play on 24p servers because it doesn't provide as much of a quality experience as a 12-16p server. I know that I personally will always avoid 24p servers if possible and will go to a green server before I go to 24p.
The quality of experience, no matter the size of the server, is all based on the players in that server. Mavick's, while listed as a green server, has a large regular player base community that usually just plays on that server. There is certainly just as much of a "quality experience" on it compared to smaller servers.
I think you are missing his point. It has nothing to do with the players, it's because NS2 wasn't designed with that large of servers in mind. It throws the balance off completely, giving marines a huge advantage and forcing aliens to always go shift first to avoid egglock.
Yes, actually it was. The determination of whether they pulled it off successfully is completely up to the individual, but don't cloud statements with your assumption of what the dev's set out to do. Either way, that line of discussion is completely off-topic and has been debated to death in other threads.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
edited May 2013
---------------------------------------------------------- Discrimination is the prejudicial
and/or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on their actual
or perceived membership in a certain group or category, "in a way that
is worse than the way people are usually treated."[1]
It involves the group's initial reaction or interaction, influencing
the individual's actual behavior towards the group or the group leader,
restricting members of one group from opportunities or privileges that
are available to another group, leading to the exclusion of the
individual or entities based on logical or irrational decision making. ----------------------------------------------------------
He does not harm the european group in any way with that comment, which is why I initially missed it as the problem. He states he had bad luck teaching europeans as they bad mouth. It just does not fit discrimination. Lets be realistic here and not change something the size of a fly to a elephant.
At most it could be slander. Please do not use such serious terms on stuff which does not deserve it, as it diminishes the stuff which does deserve it.
And yes, I myself have experienced the same insane behavior on eu servers (as I am eu) from various players. Some just already losing it when you hop in and say 'hello'. (I am talking green names) I just do not believe this is merely eu, but I am positive from reading posts that it occurs community wide.
In regards to the topic I am trying to discuss here. It is just a invalid comment, not helping the cause of the competitive players, hence I ignored it. Just as there are also many comments on the rookie side filled with stuff which simply isnt true, if you check in a broader scope.
Sure, as soon as said person is banned or said post deleted. I got censored and warned because I wrote "fuck". I sure as hell hope posting regional discriminations lead to the same kind of punishment.
What are you on about? What discriminatory thing did he say? It really seems like you are being uber-sensitive and overreacting.
" And if those are empty, then I have 150 ping european servers with a bunch of people who also don't understand the game (can't help them as I've tried but european players just bad mouth you when you try and give them tips from my experience)"
If that for you isn't discriminatory, you don't understand the word. If you fail to understand, replace the word "european" by "black people"; does that sound discriminatory yet ?
Or should I push with "not all arab people are terrorists, but from my experience all of them are trying to explode themselves in crowds" ? Generalisation is generalisation, whether it is "europeans" or "black people" or "women" or "handicaped people". I may be sensitive on the subjet, but not over-reacting.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Discrimination is the prejudicial
and/or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on their actual
or perceived membership in a certain group or category, "in a way that
is worse than the way people are usually treated."[1]
It involves the group's initial reaction or interaction, influencing
the individual's actual behavior towards the group or the group leader,
restricting members of one group from opportunities or privileges that
are available to another group, leading to the exclusion of the
individual or entities based on logical or irrational decision making.
* Is it worse then how we eu are normally treated? - No, we do not play with the guy due to his actions.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
what he said was not discrimination, it was narrow-minded slander. nothing more, nothing less... can we just drop it and continue the conversation that this topic is intended for please?
Europe is a continent, filled with several countries; of people from every single ethnicity; you're steering your own ship replacing the word with black people
I already wrote in a post afterwards in which I tagged you in; explaining exactly what happens when "I" play on "European" servers from "my own personal" experience
I'm done discussing this, let the thread continue with its intended purpose. *snip*
Removed inciting remarks. Let's allow the thread to get back on track - Ironhorse
It's been said already, if it's your server, you can do whatever the fuck you like. If you think people are ruining the experience of your server, kick them, if they come back and keep doing it, give them temp bans, or perm bans if you want.
I think you are missing his point. It has nothing to do with the players, it's because NS2 wasn't designed with that large of servers in mind. It throws the balance off completely, giving marines a huge advantage and forcing aliens to always go shift first to avoid egglock.
While you may say "balance" is completely off on larger player count servers, you would be wrong.... last I checked on Mavick's server, before ns2stats went wonky after the patch, the win/loss ratios of aliens/marines was just about perfectly in line with the average.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Can we get a mod to delete these "discrimination" comments please?.... this is meant to be an opinionated debate about servers, not a discussion about who is hyper-sensitive and political correctness.
Im a ns2 mentor. I like rookie servers, I play them often. But I believe we need less rookie servers at the moment.
I will do my best convincing the few admins I do know to swap to non rookie. Still leaves well over 3/4 of my favorites list as rookie server.
Methinks this is the first useful post this page. Go ahead and do that, it might help!
As for 16/18 vs 24/bigger... I would not say the bigger servers are imbalanced or anything, but they do feature (sometimes vastly) different playstyles. I can understand how some players prefer one style over the other. Taking a look at the available servers and choosing to fill gaps by decreasing or increasing the available playerslots on their servers (in addition to promoting/cross promoting different preferred skill levels for their server/s) should also be part of the job for a good server administrator.
I would guess a good distribution would be: 30% Rookie; 45% Normal/Casual; 25% Skilled. Of course there are not as many pro/competetive players as there are "skilled" servers in this scenario, but if those servers are filled with the more "skilled" portion of the pub playerbase it would straighten out the distribution of skill between players/servers in general and give pro players a wider variety of servers to choose from (and make them easier to distinguish). The distribution of small vs. big and combat/modded vs. vanilla should be figured out on the fly I guess (Or in other words: I don't play mods and as such can't figure out what numbers would make sense ).
Side note: I do not care whether the remarks about europeans count as discrimination or whatever, I feel insulted by it period. Especially since I try my hardest not to judge others by generalization, even though some people here try really hard to match their corresponding clichés.
Can we get a mod to delete these "discrimination" comments please?.... this is meant to be an opinionated debate about servers, not a discussion about who is hyper-sensitive and political correctness.
Done.
Everyone please keep it on topic.
If you have another subject or tangent you wish to continue, please do so in PMs.
Thanks
I'm stepping out of this thread, it's gone crazy. Someone can do a tl;dr version of it one day, if they like, then post it somewhere as an easy-to-read digest. Or not. Peace out.
Here's the reality of the situation. The rookie flag attracts more players for multiple reasons both bad and good. (Conversely the mod flag scared off players for both good and bad reasons). More players = more desirable by server admins. Since the flag isn't enforced, servers will use that flag. The playerbase is not large enough to support non-enforced flags. Either remove the rookie friendly flag, or enforce it. Then you will see true rookie servers and non-rookie servers. Until then it just highlights server in the browser really.
I think the rookie flag's purpose has been served already.. We're not dealing with droves of new players anymore. It only serves to confuse now.
If a server wishes to be rookie only they can put it in their server name?
My two cents
And this is another point adding on to what I said above: There's not enough rookies incoming to the game right now to support rookie-only servers. Perhaps the best solution is enable rookie-only servers when a steam sale or free weekend happen, and only allow UWE to run those servers. This basically puts all normal servers on the same playing field. This is just a reverse mod-flag situation really, where the flag actually increases population.
We don't get many new players but we do still get some. I prefer leaving my green labelled because several of our regulars actually do a good job of bringing new ones along. The rookie friendly (not read as rookie only as some people apparently are attempting to interpret it) is not the hanging point on how I would enforce it. Even if I had never set it up as a rookie friendly I'd still actively discourage highly skilled players from repeatedly stacking teams, because, again, it's just not fun to anyone else to get stomped repeatedly.
Comments
And to respond to the person above I used to have it unchecked until I was tired of waiting to play. Usually didn't have to wait long (if i had to at all) but sometimes I did have to wait a while so I unchecked it. I shouldn't need to wait to play a game because 50+% of the servers in my area are marked green. And some like Mavicks server comp players and competent pubbers frequent and the quality of the game there can be good at times.
I think you are missing his point. It has nothing to do with the players, it's because NS2 wasn't designed with that large of servers in mind. It throws the balance off completely, giving marines a huge advantage and forcing aliens to always go shift first to avoid egglock.
There's nothing stopping Aliens from Skulk-rushing the Marine base and winning that way. Thankfully, I don't often see teams going for the quick-win rushes, which is obviously good because there's little satisfaction to be had from such a tactic. To a decent extent, I think players and teams manage themselves in this regard.
If I've misunderstood your point, I apologise. I assume you were referring to an early-game situation as opposed to a late-game one.
Sure, as soon as said person is banned or said post deleted. I got censored and warned because I wrote "fuck". I sure as hell hope posting regional discriminations lead to the same kind of punishment.
What are you on about? What discriminatory thing did he say? It really seems like you are being uber-sensitive and overreacting.
I ment that the actual idea of the topic to talk about competitive players on rookie tagged servers is in itself a beautiful topic.
I also noticed it almost selfdestruct at post 2, but atleast I am trying.
People here in general think harsh words, cursing and the works get your point across. It never does. All what happens is you piss of some mods, and the person you were trying to convince.
@ezay. Take it up with the mods. If your points are valid, I am sure they will act acordingly. I think they already did because I read back a bit and I saw nothing wrong. (Or I misunderstand you completely)
Nethertheless, keep hate outside the topic please, and constructive comments inside!
I for one want to promote BOTH sides. Yes we must be careful not to scare of the newbies. But what do the newbies think us 'experienced folk' do after the gazilionth newbie we teached? We try to find a good match. Keyword is try.
I saw more skill in rookie servers at many times because many non rookie folk think they know how to play the game, and play it poorly. (A rookie atleast listens and screws up less)
Even I have times I am actively looking for good matches with skilled players to up my own skill, and theres noone to be found.
Now I am definitely not as good as a competitive player, so how the hell are they going to spot the difference. If mid skilled players like me can hardly find non rookie servers, how are they going to do it?
The best one I heared so far is convince some admins to be not rookie friendly & get those communities active!
I like this idea and hope to find some communities where skill is available.
Saying to them to just not play on rookie servers is in reality not going to work. Repeating a non working solution will just annoy both sides.
Discrimination is the prejudicial and/or distinguishing treatment of an individual based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category, "in a way that is worse than the way people are usually treated."[1] It involves the group's initial reaction or interaction, influencing the individual's actual behavior towards the group or the group leader, restricting members of one group from opportunities or privileges that are available to another group, leading to the exclusion of the individual or entities based on logical or irrational decision making.
----------------------------------------------------------
He does not harm the european group in any way with that comment, which is why I initially missed it as the problem.
He states he had bad luck teaching europeans as they bad mouth. It just does not fit discrimination. Lets be realistic here and not change something the size of a fly to a elephant.
At most it could be slander. Please do not use such serious terms on stuff which does not deserve it, as it diminishes the stuff which does deserve it.
And yes, I myself have experienced the same insane behavior on eu servers (as I am eu) from various players. Some just already losing it when you hop in and say 'hello'. (I am talking green names)
I just do not believe this is merely eu, but I am positive from reading posts that it occurs community wide.
In regards to the topic I am trying to discuss here. It is just a invalid comment, not helping the cause of the competitive players, hence I ignored it. Just as there are also many comments on the rookie side filled with stuff which simply isnt true, if you check in a broader scope.
" And if those are empty, then I have 150 ping european servers with a bunch of people who also don't understand the game (can't help them as I've tried but european players just bad mouth you when you try and give them tips from my experience)"
* Is it worse then how we eu are normally treated?
- No, we do not play with the guy due to his actions.
* Does he restrict us eu with his actions?
- no
* More privilages we do not have?
- no
Slander on the other hand...
But I believe we need less rookie servers at the moment.
I will do my best convincing the few admins I do know to swap to non rookie. Still leaves well over 3/4 of my favorites list as rookie server.
While you may say "balance" is completely off on larger player count servers, you would be wrong.... last I checked on Mavick's server, before ns2stats went wonky after the patch, the win/loss ratios of aliens/marines was just about perfectly in line with the average.
Methinks this is the first useful post this page. Go ahead and do that, it might help!
As for 16/18 vs 24/bigger... I would not say the bigger servers are imbalanced or anything, but they do feature (sometimes vastly) different playstyles. I can understand how some players prefer one style over the other. Taking a look at the available servers and choosing to fill gaps by decreasing or increasing the available playerslots on their servers (in addition to promoting/cross promoting different preferred skill levels for their server/s) should also be part of the job for a good server administrator.
I would guess a good distribution would be: 30% Rookie; 45% Normal/Casual; 25% Skilled. Of course there are not as many pro/competetive players as there are "skilled" servers in this scenario, but if those servers are filled with the more "skilled" portion of the pub playerbase it would straighten out the distribution of skill between players/servers in general and give pro players a wider variety of servers to choose from (and make them easier to distinguish). The distribution of small vs. big and combat/modded vs. vanilla should be figured out on the fly I guess (Or in other words: I don't play mods and as such can't figure out what numbers would make sense
Side note: I do not care whether the remarks about europeans count as discrimination or whatever, I feel insulted by it period. Especially since I try my hardest not to judge others by generalization, even though some people here try really hard to match their corresponding clichés.
Done.
Everyone please keep it on topic.
If you have another subject or tangent you wish to continue, please do so in PMs.
Thanks
I'm stepping out of this thread, it's gone crazy. Someone can do a tl;dr version of it one day, if they like, then post it somewhere as an easy-to-read digest. Or not. Peace out.
If a server wishes to be rookie only they can put it in their server name?
My two cents
Rookie mode can be turned off manually via options
Everyone else can enter rookie servers, for the purpose of teaching or whatever.