rookies who actually want to play high skill players and get good at the game will stick around. Sadly, these people are in the minority, the vast majority of the rookies just want to have a casual gaming experience, its why theres an easy mode in almost all games. Alot of these players arent accurately represented because they dont visit these forums, and most of them have probably quit the game at this point.
NS1 had huge player retention when the game first came out, the game was far more casual as everyone was new. We all know how competitive NS1 became, and i distinctly remember this exact same problem we are faced with now, the community never really grew much as the game got older.
I mean could you imagine if you were playing a starcraft2 4vs4 game with a mixture of grandmasters and 1st time players ? It wouldnt be good for anyone, grandmasters would get pissed off at noobs, and noobs would get pissed off at grandmasters. I could see how new players would just quit the game as they had not much invested to stick around, and grandmasters would stop playing that game mode. Same thing is happening in NS2, comp players are more frequently avoiding pubs and only scrimming/playing combat, and new players are quiting.
i think what UWE is doing with sabot is a good idea, if we can get scrims going without any hassle or the long wait times, it would bring alot of comp players back to playing the game more frequently
i also think UWE should change rookie servers to rookie only, and have these servers display to rookies by default (have regular servers filtered out by default for rookies). I know some of you are against this idea, but think about free weekends with this change ... the large influx of new players would essentially not interfere as much anymore with the rest of the player base because they would all be directed (not forced) to their own servers. This is a win win in my view, i think we would be able to retain alot more new players if we followed this approach.
I played on your server the other night mavick. Seemed ok tbh, no stacking and plenty of help on the mic for people. I comm'd marines and everyone seemed to be ok. Problem is, this isnt the same all rounds. I actually came close to raging last night (which isnt me as people who play with me know), I was on yoclan too of all places. Comm wouldnt drop tech points, refused to entertain the idea of proto, ignored basics such as PGs until really pushed to. Game was strangely fun though (at least we had l3 shotguns and a pair of arcs) mainly due to a few of us doing a last stand approach. I dont think he was a new comm as he knew where to deploy ARCs outside of hives to get them, probably just bored.
Thing is, plenty of people left because of it. A couple of greens had no idea about the game - didnt know how to spend res etc. A lot of people will be put off (that being said, yoclan probably isnt the best to start on in any case).
Same happens elsewhere. Unless both comms make bad decisions the game is decided after a few minutes. The amount of games that get "concede" votes after the first major room wipeout is increasing. Ive had quite a few where aliens havent evolved fades and marines no JPs due to opposition conceding. Sure you might not "win" the game but as a new player this wont be fun. Dare I say it that combat is thriving? I have a foot in both camps so I dont care but the NS1 vets will argue for either side till blue in the face - combat will appeal to the casual player. Server owners will add a combat server, that one will fill before the "classic". Classic gets mothballed and combat gets blamed for the "death" of classic.
Little things that are annoyances to the hardcore will put new people off. Performance of the game, lack of "common" binds found in shooters, steep learning curve - particularly for aliens (most "shooters" do not play the same as a BHOP side jumping ceiling bouncing stealth skulk), add to that the unpredictability of "damage" and you can see why newbies wont bother returning. Server browser is fairly rubbish compared to the steam server browser. The irony is that the game isnt new now. NS2 has nuances such as skulk BHOP which new players wont know about; as a marine they shoot a skulk and it wont die - in fact it seems to have some huge speed advantage that they cannot get when they play aliens! What gives!
simple fact, NS2 has a learning curve. Average players might not want to devote the time into learning. They look at alternatives.
What is the answer? Who knows. Some kind of marker next to a player to denote "time played"? Not saying time played is a skill indicator but it certainly gives an idea of experience. An XP ladder system? Possibly - not for unlocks, again just as a marker as to their experience. Maybe one for marines, one for aliens.
Comm wouldnt drop tech points, refused to entertain the idea of proto, ignored basics such as PGs until really pushed to.
Sounds like you had an experienced commander who knew what he was doing and a dogmatic team accustomed to 30-second phase gates and 10-minute exo stompfests.
As a semi-decent comp player, I think I need to say a few things.
Like colt said, being on the receiving end of bans for being "too good" feels really bad, but I can perfectly understand why I was banned.
Obviously I won't name the server and the person who banned me, but the conversation was like: You were banned because you were ruining the game for other players, I've played FPS for a long time and I know that you don't cheat, but I can't just let you stomp these players.
I felt a mix of anger and sadness while reading what the admin said to me, sadness because I know what he said is true, I was ruining the game for them.
Anger because this is a competitive game by its nature, if people are getting mad because I'm killing them repeteadly, it means that they have fun when not being stomped, right? If this is true, why don't they try to get better? Do they feel good when stomping players worse than them? Isn't it a bit hypocritical?
What I said might appear to be a little selfish, because I'm not considering if these people are time restricted by work, studies, SO, whatever, but it isn't also selfish towards comp players to be simply told to leave the server or be banned? It's not like we can choose between millions of servers, and for me the situation is even worse, I'm from Brazil, I get 150-200 ping to US-E and US-C servers, KKG and Mavick's servers are almost the only decent servers for me (regarding ping and skill level of its players)
I love playing against people better than I am, the 'duel' is much more meaningful, it actually makes me go try-hard on them, I don't understand why there aren't more players with the same mindset as mine.
In conclusion: Yes, I would prefer playing against people of the same skill level or superior, but outside of scrims I most definitely wouldn't be able to.
As a semi-decent comp player, I think I need to say a few things.
Like colt said, being on the receiving end of bans for being "too good" feels really bad, but I can perfectly understand why I was banned.
Obviously I won't name the server and the person who banned me, but the conversation was like: You were banned because you were ruining the game for other players, I've played FPS for a long time and I know that you don't cheat, but I can't just let you stomp these players.
I felt a mix of anger and sadness while reading what the admin said to me, sadness because I know what he said is true, I was ruining the game for them.
Anger because this is a competitive game by its nature, if people are getting mad because I'm killing them repeteadly, it means that they have fun when not being stomped, right? If this is true, why don't they try to get better? Do they feel good when stomping players worse than them? Isn't it a bit hypocritical?
What I said might appear to be a little selfish, because I'm not considering if these people are time restricted by work, studies, SO, whatever, but it isn't also selfish towards comp players to be simply told to leave the server or be banned? It's not like we can choose between millions of servers, and for me the situation is even worse, I'm from Brazil, I get 150-200 ping to US-E and US-C servers, KKG and Mavick's servers are almost the only decent servers for me (regarding ping and skill level of its players)
I love playing against people better than I am, the 'duel' is much more meaningful, it actually makes me go try-hard on them, I don't understand why there aren't more players with the same mindset as mine.
In conclusion: Yes, I would prefer playing against people of the same skill level or superior, but outside of scrims I most definitely wouldn't be able to.
Some consider pubstomping a form of griefing so its understandable that you can get banned for it. When I find myself in a server where I'm much more skilled than the rest of the players, I usually do one of two things
- Switch servers
- Play a different class/role or comm
For example, I'm still pretty terrible as a lerk so I'll take the opportunity to practice it in a more forgiving environment. I suggest all skilled comp players try something similar on pubs. Not only will it prevent you from getting banned, but it'll actually help improve your game (I have yet to see someone who is highly skilled with every class/weapon/role).
I love playing against people better than I am, the 'duel' is much more meaningful, it actually makes me go try-hard on them, I don't understand why there aren't more players with the same mindset as mine.
That's because you reached a level where you can't get so much overplayed that your opponent is out of reach for you. I seriously doubt that you would stay and fight an opponent that kills you on sight and wins 30-0 in your duels.
Also, some people (like me) play alot of different games, because we can't always focus our attention on one. Luckily, I loved NS2 and I stayed to get better at it, but I can perfectly understand people that felt the investment in time was too big for the return in fun. When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun. I'm sure you understand that.
When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun.
Not to mention that, whether they have jobs and families or not, some people may just not be interested in becoming very good at playing a video game. And that's just fine. People should be able to enjoy playing a game no matter what their skill level is.
And they will, unless they get matched against someone vastly superior to them. In other words, they'll have fun unless a "pro" player comes along to ruin it.
I love playing against people better than I am, the 'duel' is much more meaningful, it actually makes me go try-hard on them, I don't understand why there aren't more players with the same mindset as mine.
That's because you reached a level where you can't get so much overplayed that your opponent is out of reach for you. I seriously doubt that you would stay and fight an opponent that kills you on sight and wins 30-0 in your duels.
Also, some people (like me) play alot of different games, because we can't always focus our attention on one. Luckily, I loved NS2 and I stayed to get better at it, but I can perfectly understand people that felt the investment in time was too big for the return in fun. When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun. I'm sure you understand that.
Yes, I do, but follow me for a second, do you think it's fair to tell a comp player where he should play and most importantly, when?
When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun.
Not to mention that, whether they have jobs and families or not, some people may just not be interested in becoming very good at playing a video game. And that's just fine. People should be able to enjoy playing a game no matter what their skill level is.
And they will, unless they get matched against someone vastly superior to them. In other words, they'll have fun unless a "pro" player comes along to ruin it.
Seriously? All I got from your post was :
People should be able to enjoy playing a game no matter what their skill level is.
Some consider pubstomping a form of griefing so its understandable that you can get banned for it. When I find myself in a server where I'm much more skilled than the rest of the players, I usually do one of two things
- Switch servers
- Play a different class/role or comm
For example, I'm still pretty terrible as a lerk so I'll take the opportunity to practice it in a more forgiving environment. I suggest all skilled comp players try something similar on pubs. Not only will it prevent you from getting banned, but it'll actually help improve your game (I have yet to see someone who is highly skilled with every class/weapon/role).
Or you could just play for fun, like Virsoul does. He asks viewers for challenges and handicaps both to avoid pubstomping and to have fun. Some of the most commonly suggested: as marine, drop all your weapons and kill stuff with the axe or welder (he even reserved a day for that: the Welder Wednesday). As Lerk, use only spikes to kill everything. There are many things to do to have fun and still be a reasonably effective team member.
If you want to improve your skill, then by all means do it, but as ScardyBob suggested above, if you're going to do it on a pub server full of rookies/non-comp players, practice something you're not used to.
I love playing against people better than I am, the 'duel' is much more meaningful, it actually makes me go try-hard on them, I don't understand why there aren't more players with the same mindset as mine.
That's because you reached a level where you can't get so much overplayed that your opponent is out of reach for you. I seriously doubt that you would stay and fight an opponent that kills you on sight and wins 30-0 in your duels.
Also, some people (like me) play alot of different games, because we can't always focus our attention on one. Luckily, I loved NS2 and I stayed to get better at it, but I can perfectly understand people that felt the investment in time was too big for the return in fun. When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun. I'm sure you understand that.
Yes, I do, but follow me for a second, do you think it's fair to tell a comp player where he should play and most importantly, when?
When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun.
Not to mention that, whether they have jobs and families or not, some people may just not be interested in becoming very good at playing a video game. And that's just fine. People should be able to enjoy playing a game no matter what their skill level is.
And they will, unless they get matched against someone vastly superior to them. In other words, they'll have fun unless a "pro" player comes along to ruin it.
Seriously? All I got from your post was :
People should be able to enjoy playing a game no matter what their skill level is.
Unless they are good at this game.
Pretty much were I stand on it is I will never discourage anyone from playing on my the pub server at any time, regardless of level. My philosophy towards that server has always and will always be the more players the better, of all types. Just have the sense to know if it becomes akin to your personal playground at the expense of others, be prepared to be forced to stop, whether by warning, kicking or eventually banning. I don't think I've actually banned more then a handful of players for it total over the course of time, I've certainly kicked far more. Again, usually just switching the teams around myself with web admin panel achieves the desired result with far less harm done all around.
do you think it's fair to tell a comp player where he should play and most importantly, when?
Comp players, like all players, should play whenever and wherever they can find people who want to play with them. Low skill players don't want to play with comp players because nobody enjoys a one-sided fight, and therefore comp players shouldn't play with them.
Seriously?
Seriously.
All I got from your post was : People should be able to enjoy playing a game no matter what their skill level is.
Unless they are good at this game.
No, people who are good should also be able to enjoy playing. But not if it means ruining other people's enjoyment. Go find people who want to play with you, and you can have all the fun you want.
I love playing against people better than I am, the 'duel' is much more meaningful, it actually makes me go try-hard on them, I don't understand why there aren't more players with the same mindset as mine.
That's because you reached a level where you can't get so much overplayed that your opponent is out of reach for you. I seriously doubt that you would stay and fight an opponent that kills you on sight and wins 30-0 in your duels.
Also, some people (like me) play alot of different games, because we can't always focus our attention on one. Luckily, I loved NS2 and I stayed to get better at it, but I can perfectly understand people that felt the investment in time was too big for the return in fun. When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun. I'm sure you understand that.
Yes, I do, but follow me for a second, do you think it's fair to tell a comp player where he should play and most importantly, when?
Yes. How would you feel about Cristiano Ronaldo coming to your football match, getting on other side, scoring 35 goals and telling you that you're bad and should train more ? Except being glad to see a football star, you'd be seriously pissed that someone ruined your sunday match with your friends. And that's the exact same situation with comp players coming to rookie-friendly servers and crushing everyone on the server.
Life isn't always what's fair or not; for the matter, neither is it fair to forbid a comp player to go on a server because he is good, neither it is to allow him to ruin the game for everyone else. When having to decide between unfair and unfair, one should look at few parameters, such as number people of grieved, who's grieving and so on.
To make it simple, if one person grieves 15 others, even unvoluntarily, that person is the one that should go away. Not fair, but pragmatic.
People play rookies cos they want to have fun without playing seriously. I play rookies, nothing more fun than just gorge sliding everywhere. Or try different strats as comm. I change server if i want to play seriously. Usually just gorgin' whole time, and helping others (good time, gorge slide and drinking beer). Serious servers sometimes 1 gorge is too much if it aint comm.
do you think it's fair to tell a comp player where he should play and most importantly, when?
Comp players, like all players, should play whenever and wherever they can find people who want to play with them. Low skill players don't want to play with comp players because nobody enjoys a one-sided fight, and therefore comp players shouldn't play with them.
Seriously?
Seriously.
All I got from your post was : People should be able to enjoy playing a game no matter what their skill level is.
Unless they are good at this game.
No, people who are good should also be able to enjoy playing. But not if it means ruining other people's enjoyment. Go find people who want to play with you, and you can have all the fun you want.
What? You talk like there are billions of servers dedicated to veteran players. Please show me all of them.
I love playing against people better than I am, the 'duel' is much more meaningful, it actually makes me go try-hard on them, I don't understand why there aren't more players with the same mindset as mine.
That's because you reached a level where you can't get so much overplayed that your opponent is out of reach for you. I seriously doubt that you would stay and fight an opponent that kills you on sight and wins 30-0 in your duels.
Also, some people (like me) play alot of different games, because we can't always focus our attention on one. Luckily, I loved NS2 and I stayed to get better at it, but I can perfectly understand people that felt the investment in time was too big for the return in fun. When you have a job/family, you may not have the time to invest undreds of hours in a game to get a glimpse of chance to have fun. I'm sure you understand that.
Yes, I do, but follow me for a second, do you think it's fair to tell a comp player where he should play and most importantly, when?
Yes. How would you feel about Cristiano Ronaldo coming to your football match, getting on other side, scoring 35 goals and telling you that you're bad and should train more ? Except being glad to see a football star, you'd be seriously pissed that someone ruined your sunday match with your friends. And that's the exact same situation with comp players coming to rookie-friendly servers and crushing everyone on the server.
Life isn't always what's fair or not; for the matter, neither is it fair to forbid a comp player to go on a server because he is good, neither it is to allow him to ruin the game for everyone else. When having to decide between unfair and unfair, one should look at few parameters, such as number people of grieved, who's grieving and so on.
To make it simple, if one person grieves 15 others, even unvoluntarily, that person is the one that should go away. Not fair, but pragmatic.
That's what I'm trying to understand but have failed so far, this is the first game I've ever seen someone get punished for being too good, if it bothers people that much to have a comp player on rookie friendly servers then re-name the server to ROOKIE ONLY.
I'm not "pubstomping" because I want to be the PWNzoRHaxor420 MLG Pro, I just happen to be a normal person who likes this game, be it 6v6 or 12v12, Saying that I shouldn't play this game is insanity, specially after the money I spent.
EDIT: Damn double post, was supposed to edit my previous one, sorry.
Finding people to play with is your problem, not anyone else's. If you can't find people who want to play with you, that doesn't give you the right to play with people who don't want to play with you.
Finding people to play with is your problem, not anyone else's. If you can't find people who want to play with you, that doesn't give you the right to play with people who don't want to play with you.
I don't want to play with rookies either, please tell me where I should play.
If you don't stomp the newbies then nobody will mind you playing with them. If you're so good that you just can't help but stomp them, then give yourself a handicap.
If you don't understand basic concepts of good sportsmanship, then yeah, I'd say no playing for you. Luckily, good sportsmanship is easy to learn. I'm sure you'll do just fine.
People play rookies cos they want to have fun without playing seriously. I play rookies, nothing more fun than just gorge sliding everywhere. Or try different strats as comm. I change server if i want to play seriously. Usually just gorgin' whole time, and helping others (good time, gorge slide and drinking beer). Serious servers sometimes 1 gorge is too much if it aint comm.
You are not the problem, people like you are how all competitive players should be when joining a server full of rookies. Kill them with gorge, teach them how effective gorge can be without making the game totally 1 sided every round. [quote]
I don't want to play with rookies either, please tell me where I should play.
Oh, that is also a rookie server.
This one is too.
So, no playing for me then? K.
[/Quote]
So this is why we need servers dedicated to teach rookies! Its fine that we have rookie friendly servers but what we really need are rookie only servers. That is what most of the people on my side of this argument have been getting at this entire thread!
As shocking as it might seem to you, top tier players are not the vast majority of the NS2 gaming population. Paying for a server to cater to a small crowd is, almost certainly, going to sit empty at times, and be much harder to fill up. It's not worth the trouble. I weighed this option when I first set mine up, and went with the more wortwhile option: leave it open for new players and hopefully attract better ones as well, and keep an eye on extremely good ones and coerce them into playing nice while on it. It worked for me, and I imagine more server operators than not went this route as well.
If the teams I'm playing against are at an acceptably lower level (three or four of them can't kill me), I will intentionally lower my skill level to even the fight, especially on rookie friendly servers. I find this to be the fair action to make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
I understand that some may be unwilling to do this at all. You want to always be at your best, bringing your A-game to every fight. But in that case, it's probably best you start seeding a server before you start stomping in a rookie friendly server. Have some decency.
And if your name is Shiv, and you read these forums, I apologize for running you off in a match when I was still getting the hang of NS2's mechanics. I hope you're still playing and enjoying the game.
EDIT: Removed my background of AvP2 and CS:S play to make Mavick feel better.
I'm sorry, I started to assume you were making a decent point, but somehow it got clouded in the tooting of your own horn bs I've seen from several dozens of other players who are undoubtedly just as good as you are and who I care just as less about as you.
In seriousness tho, the point you make is one that's been said here before, and valid. But quite honestly, at least half of the post you typed didn't need typed at all.
EDIT: You didn't edit it to make me feel better, you edited it because I pointed out how much the validity of the point you were attempting to make was drowned out by your self indulgent bs. Let's be honest.
im by no means a pro who can stomp people whenever i wan't. Im not in a clan. I also never play on rookie servers. Actually the only server i play on is "HeidisZiegenfarm". A german server where alot of comp people come to play.
Comp players are great for improving personal skills.
Atleast weapon aim, lerk skills and fade skills have improved dramatically from being killed by comp players. The first time a fade made it's shadowstep+jump+jump and landed directly behind me i had to go to youtube and learn how to do that. And because of that my fade style is now much improved and a much more enjoyable experience.
My point being: Go where the pros are to avoid being roflstomped in the future.
Comments
I played on your server the other night mavick. Seemed ok tbh, no stacking and plenty of help on the mic for people. I comm'd marines and everyone seemed to be ok. Problem is, this isnt the same all rounds. I actually came close to raging last night (which isnt me as people who play with me know), I was on yoclan too of all places. Comm wouldnt drop tech points, refused to entertain the idea of proto, ignored basics such as PGs until really pushed to. Game was strangely fun though (at least we had l3 shotguns and a pair of arcs) mainly due to a few of us doing a last stand approach. I dont think he was a new comm as he knew where to deploy ARCs outside of hives to get them, probably just bored.
Thing is, plenty of people left because of it. A couple of greens had no idea about the game - didnt know how to spend res etc. A lot of people will be put off (that being said, yoclan probably isnt the best to start on in any case).
Same happens elsewhere. Unless both comms make bad decisions the game is decided after a few minutes. The amount of games that get "concede" votes after the first major room wipeout is increasing. Ive had quite a few where aliens havent evolved fades and marines no JPs due to opposition conceding. Sure you might not "win" the game but as a new player this wont be fun. Dare I say it that combat is thriving? I have a foot in both camps so I dont care but the NS1 vets will argue for either side till blue in the face - combat will appeal to the casual player. Server owners will add a combat server, that one will fill before the "classic". Classic gets mothballed and combat gets blamed for the "death" of classic.
Little things that are annoyances to the hardcore will put new people off. Performance of the game, lack of "common" binds found in shooters, steep learning curve - particularly for aliens (most "shooters" do not play the same as a BHOP side jumping ceiling bouncing stealth skulk), add to that the unpredictability of "damage" and you can see why newbies wont bother returning. Server browser is fairly rubbish compared to the steam server browser. The irony is that the game isnt new now. NS2 has nuances such as skulk BHOP which new players wont know about; as a marine they shoot a skulk and it wont die - in fact it seems to have some huge speed advantage that they cannot get when they play aliens! What gives!
simple fact, NS2 has a learning curve. Average players might not want to devote the time into learning. They look at alternatives.
What is the answer? Who knows. Some kind of marker next to a player to denote "time played"? Not saying time played is a skill indicator but it certainly gives an idea of experience. An XP ladder system? Possibly - not for unlocks, again just as a marker as to their experience. Maybe one for marines, one for aliens.
Sounds like you had an experienced commander who knew what he was doing and a dogmatic team accustomed to 30-second phase gates and 10-minute exo stompfests.
Yes, I do, but follow me for a second, do you think it's fair to tell a comp player where he should play and most importantly, when?
If you want to improve your skill, then by all means do it, but as ScardyBob suggested above, if you're going to do it on a pub server full of rookies/non-comp players, practice something you're not used to.
Seriously.
No, people who are good should also be able to enjoy playing. But not if it means ruining other people's enjoyment. Go find people who want to play with you, and you can have all the fun you want.
You are not the problem, people like you are how all competitive players should be when joining a server full of rookies. Kill them with gorge, teach them how effective gorge can be without making the game totally 1 sided every round.
[quote]
[/Quote]
So this is why we need servers dedicated to teach rookies! Its fine that we have rookie friendly servers but what we really need are rookie only servers. That is what most of the people on my side of this argument have been getting at this entire thread!
I understand that some may be unwilling to do this at all. You want to always be at your best, bringing your A-game to every fight. But in that case, it's probably best you start seeding a server before you start stomping in a rookie friendly server. Have some decency.
And if your name is Shiv, and you read these forums, I apologize for running you off in a match when I was still getting the hang of NS2's mechanics. I hope you're still playing and enjoying the game.
EDIT: Removed my background of AvP2 and CS:S play to make Mavick feel better.
Actually the only server i play on is "HeidisZiegenfarm". A german server where alot of comp people come to play.
Comp players are great for improving personal skills.
Atleast weapon aim, lerk skills and fade skills have improved dramatically from being killed by comp players.
The first time a fade made it's shadowstep+jump+jump and landed directly behind me i had to go to youtube and learn how to do that. And because of that my fade style is now much improved and a much more enjoyable experience.
My point being: Go where the pros are to avoid being roflstomped in the future.