I've never understood the whole "HMG would make LMG obsolete so it shouldn't be in the game" argument. The LMG is free and the HMG would cost resources, so it would only make sense for the HMG to be more effective. Does anyone complain about Armor 3 making Armor 0 obsolete? Or the Fade/Onos being better at killing marines than a skulk?
Besides, as it stands now the shotgun effectively makes the LMG obsolete anyway. Once the entire alien team is lerk or fade there isn't much of a reason to use the LMG over the SG unless you don't have the res for it.
Implying there was any combination other than HA + HMG.
Implying there was any combination other than JP + HMG or JP + Shotgun.
Implying it was anything more than a missed opportunity to recreate NS1.
In NS2 it's basically JP+SG as the SG took the place of the HMG. All other weapons are not as good(they are great for 1 or 2 thing and suck in every other aspect).
I've never understood the whole "HMG would make LMG obsolete so it shouldn't be in the game" argument. The LMG is free and the HMG would cost resources, so it would only make sense for the HMG to be more effective. Does anyone complain about Armor 3 making Armor 0 obsolete? Or the Fade/Onos being better at killing marines than a skulk?
Besides, as it stands now the shotgun effectively makes the LMG obsolete anyway. Once the entire alien team is lerk or fade there isn't much of a reason to use the LMG over the SG unless you don't have the res for it.
I think it was a different story in NS1 when there was only team resources. If NS2 got an HMG, what would it cost? Considering what the HMG was like in NS1, I would think that double the price of the shotgun would be more than fair. So you are basically looking at an HMG, or a single Exo.
Major disappointment since i got NS2, due the fact exos are useless in advancing solo where as a jetpack with hmg can easily reach hive and also does damage to fades/onos.
I've never understood the whole "HMG would make LMG obsolete so it shouldn't be in the game" argument. The LMG is free and the HMG would cost resources, so it would only make sense for the HMG to be more effective. Does anyone complain about Armor 3 making Armor 0 obsolete? Or the Fade/Onos being better at killing marines than a skulk?
Besides, as it stands now the shotgun effectively makes the LMG obsolete anyway. Once the entire alien team is lerk or fade there isn't much of a reason to use the LMG over the SG unless you don't have the res for it.
LMG is better for chasing down Onos because it's faster reload speed gives it higher DPS. It is also great for shooting things more than 20 feet away. Skulks are useful by virtue of being expendable forces that can be used to chew unguarded extractors or power nodes, even into the late game when sending a Fade or Onos wouldn't be as resourceful. The Armor 3 comparison doesn't apply to a HMG argument because it's not a player's pres choice. Basically, HMG feels like a direct weapon upgrade that wouldn't contribute to the complexity of the current metagame. It would absolutely destroy aliens when used by players with competitive-level aim, without any real counter from the alien side.
In Ns1, in order to have hmg would require advanced armor and cost @ 25 res. While lmg may be good for chasing onos, it takes multiple clips to kill onos. in this case, hmg would be a better option to chase down fully upgraded onos.
LMG is better for chasing down Onos because it's faster reload speed gives it higher DPS. It is also great for shooting things more than 20 feet away. Skulks are useful by virtue of being expendable forces that can be used to chew unguarded extractors or power nodes, even into the late game when sending a Fade or Onos wouldn't be as resourceful.
And yet nobody who can afford a shotgun or a fade would willingly go LMG or skulk. Those are some very small, niche benefits that don't make up for the general usefulness of the higher lifeforms/weapons.
Basically, HMG feels like a direct weapon upgrade that wouldn't contribute to the complexity of the current metagame. It would absolutely destroy aliens when used by players with competitive-level aim, without any real counter from the alien side.
If we're going to count extremely small, situational benefits, then it's worth pointing out that the HMG reloads a whole lot slower than the LMG and also does half damage to alien structures. So it isn't a direct upgrade. The counter to it for the alien side would be the same counter they have to the LMG - they are capable of moving really quickly and unpredictably and can dodge the majority of the shots. Players with competitive-level aim are already capable of completely destroying aliens on public servers as it is, so I don't see that as being a major problem in regards to adding the weapon.
I'd rather see an upgrade to LMG to make it piercing damage (Uranium Ammo)
Buy it to change the bullet type for 5-10 Pres
Obvious trade off is that the LMG would not be able to take down structures for better lifeform killing power
No flat upgrades
No single gun that is better at everything in every situation
Everyone wins.
Maybe you don't realize that the HMG already did reduced damage to alien structures. So your suggestion is really just a different name for the HMG, only cheaper and with a faster reload speed.
Lets pretend for a moment that simply by making the HMG cost resources, that good enough to not make it a direct upgrade.
Consider how you would balance the HMG. Do this by comparing it to minigun. The minigun is an example of a weapon that the HMG cannot even nearly be as powerful as.
Lets pretend for a moment that simply by making the HMG cost resources, that good enough to not make it a direct upgrade.
Consider how you would balance the HMG. Do this by comparing it to minigun. The minigun is an example of a weapon that the HMG cannot even nearly be as powerful as.
-Longer reload
-Less damage vs. buildings
Already it's not a direct upgrade! Also, I wouldn't balance it with minigun exos because I would rather remove the exos from the game entirely.
Already it's not a direct upgrade! Also, I wouldn't balance it with minigun exos because I would rather remove the exos from the game entirely.
The first HMG had a marginally longer reload time than the LMG, if at all, considering it fired 3 times the bullets before needing it.
Also, what does "less damage vs buildings" mean? Less damage than what? It would certainly do more damage than an LMG or a shotgun in the vast majority of cases.
Also, what does "less damage vs buildings" mean? Less damage than what? It would certainly do more damage than an LMG or a shotgun in the vast majority of cases.
"Less damage" meaning it does 50% damage vs. buildings, considerably less than the LMG or shotgun. Did you play NS1? It took forever to kill structures with that thing.
And yet nobody who can afford a shotgun or a fade would willingly go LMG or skulk. Those are some very small, niche benefits that don't make up for the general usefulness of the higher lifeforms/weapons.
Personally, I'll take a JP before Shotgun if I don't have enough res for both. I'll probably even get a welder before SG depending on how many ARCs/Exos/MACs my team is fielding. The shotgun is not a direct upgrade to the LMG due to its slow reload and short range. It is generally more useful at self-defense, but that doesn't the LMG obsolete at all. As for alien life-forms, every pres Fade bought is one less 'early' 'Onos your team has for the end-game. Which leads to my next point...
The counter to it for the alien side would be the same counter they have to the LMG - they are capable of moving really quickly and unpredictably and can dodge the majority of the shots. Players with competitive-level aim are already capable of completely destroying aliens on public servers as it is, so I don't see that as being a major problem in regards to adding the weapon.
Onos can't dodge shots, and Fades have relatively low HP. W3/A3 JP Marines with HMG would wreck every Alien lifeform 1v1 and make the SG obsolete as well as the LMG and Exosuits. They also could be recycled by other marines, making them harder to destroy than Fades or Onos. Precisely because players with competitive-level aim are already capable of completely destroying aliens on public servers, adding this weapon would give further advantages to such players that this forum is already filled with complaints about.
Also, what does "less damage vs buildings" mean? Less damage than what? It would certainly do more damage than an LMG or a shotgun in the vast majority of cases.
"Less damage" meaning it does 50% damage vs. buildings, considerably less than the LMG or shotgun. Did you play NS1? It took forever to kill structures with that thing.
Well, considering the bullets did double the damage of an LMG, and it fired faster, it still killed them faster than the LMG. It just required more bullets to do it.
Also, I don't even remember it doing low damage to structures in general. I remember it raping hives quite well.
Also, what does "less damage vs buildings" mean? Less damage than what? It would certainly do more damage than an LMG or a shotgun in the vast majority of cases.
"Less damage" meaning it does 50% damage vs. buildings, considerably less than the LMG or shotgun. Did you play NS1? It took forever to kill structures with that thing.
As the HMG had double damage compared to the LMG, 50% against buildings only recudes it to the level of the LMG, not making it worse. Taking into account the faster ROF, it actually dealt more DPS against buildings than the lmg. The faster reload time is very situational, since the 2,5 times bigger clip means that you have to reload it once for every 2,5 times you'd have to reload the LMG. The drawbacks of the HMG compared to the LMG are much smaller and more situational than the drawbacks between the SG and the LMG in current NS2, to say the least.
In NS1 nobody really thought that the HMG should have drawbacks compared to the LMG, since there we had two higher-tier weapons with different roles: the SG and the HMG. The HMG was arguably better overall than the SG, and justifiably so, being higher in tier and in price, but the differences were tangible enough for it to be a real choice between them.
I'd love to see the HMG return for thesame reason I'd like to see the gl and flamethrower made a bit more viable, because the more options the better. It would need some serious tweaking though.
Its also important to realise that, in NS1, the marine team almost never just started walking around with all HMGs or all shotguns. Marines were vanilla until a concerted attack was coming, at which point heavies or the like would be outfitted, and given better weapons.
Due to the pres nature of NS2, it is unavoidable that, at a certain point in the game, the marines will all but stop using LMGs at all, and upgrade to another weapon. You see it now with the shotgun. Eventually the entire enemy team is either walking around in an exo, or walking around with a shotgun. Imagine the same thing but with HMGs. It makes me scared.
Metal ManJoin Date: 2011-11-13Member: 132717Members
Just have to say this. What is with all this maddening talk about no direct upgrades? I am a bit confused. Every single hive evolution and marine armor/weapons is a direct upgrade. Every single new move acquired by the aliens (bile bomb, spores, leap, blink, etc.) is a direct upgrade. Jetpack is a direct upgrade. The REASON these are direct upgrades is because they cost resources AND time. I understand that the shotgun and flamethrower have some tradeoffs, but they provide a distinct and unique roll. Certain things understandably need tradeoffs. However, that doesn't mean certain things can't or shouldn't be, more or less, direct upgrades. Ideally, at least in NS1, the HMG was a required direct upgrade to the LMG to scale into the late game. LMGs and SGs were not enough to deal with fades and, especially, the onos.
The exos were implemented to replace the HMG late game but unknown worlds placed too many limitations on them for the same reasons many of you are shouting - "No weapon should be superior in every way to another." There is no chasing ability and the results in turtles and walls of push. Its so stagnant. Like two walls rubbing against eachother for centuries until one happens to give way. I hate to sound negative but I think this is a terrible mindset in trying to balance this game. Especially in regards to the development of Exo suits. They made them sooooo situational by giving them extreme power while sacrificing mobility. No phase no beacon. There is almost NO strategy or variation involved in the late game because of these limitations. Save up, stick together, defend or push in a linear path. It is very frustrating and boring gameplay.
Either bring back the HMG or change the Exos to be weaker but phaseable and beaconable (real words), Make this game chaotic and mobile and fast and DYNAMIC. NO MORE WALLS OF PUSH PLEASE
Also, what does "less damage vs buildings" mean? Less damage than what? It would certainly do more damage than an LMG or a shotgun in the vast majority of cases.
"Less damage" meaning it does 50% damage vs. buildings, considerably less than the LMG or shotgun. Did you play NS1? It took forever to kill structures with that thing.
What?
It took a little while yes but you carry a million bullets for the HMG, and you have as long as you need because, seeing as you're carrying an HMG, you can murder anything that tries to stop you killing structures better than you can with... well... any other weapon in the game.
Less damage vs structures is not a reason to stop using the HMG, it's a reason to build a siege turret or have one guy bring a GL along, just as you already would.
It's like saying, oh I don't know, that... fades aren't better than skulks because they're not great at killing buildings. That's technically correct but the fade is still MILES better than the skulk because it can kill everything else and you can kill buildings under sheer weight of numbers.
It's not a situational drawback if it's not a significant drawback.
Just have to say this. What is with all this maddening talk about no direct upgrades? I am a bit confused. Every single hive evolution and marine armor/weapons is a direct upgrade. Every single new move acquired by the aliens (bile bomb, spores, leap, blink, etc.) is a direct upgrade. Jetpack is a direct upgrade. The REASON these are direct upgrades is because they cost resources AND time. I understand that the shotgun and flamethrower have some tradeoffs, but they provide a distinct and unique roll. Certain things understandably need tradeoffs. However, that doesn't mean certain things can't or shouldn't be, more or less, direct upgrades. Ideally, at least in NS1, the HMG was a required direct upgrade to the LMG to scale into the late game. LMGs and SGs were not enough to deal with fades and, especially, the onos.
The exos were implemented to replace the HMG late game but unknown worlds placed too many limitations on them for the same reasons many of you are shouting - "No weapon should be superior in every way to another." There is no chasing ability and the results in turtles and walls of push. Its so stagnant. Like two walls rubbing against eachother for centuries until one happens to give way. I hate to sound negative but I think this is a terrible mindset in trying to balance this game. Especially in regards to the development of Exo suits. They made them sooooo situational by giving them extreme power while sacrificing mobility. No phase no beacon. There is almost NO strategy or variation involved in the late game because of these limitations. Save up, stick together, defend or push in a linear path. It is very frustrating and boring gameplay.
Either bring back the HMG or change the Exos to be weaker but phaseable and beaconable (real words), Make this game chaotic and mobile and fast and DYNAMIC. NO MORE WALLS OF PUSH PLEASE
While the NS2 upgrade system leaves a lot to be desired, I do have to say that at the very least, it doesn't have any straight upgrades other than from the very basic equipment. That in itself is still a problem, because it means in the later game that if you don't spend money, you're basically useless.
But it is not as much of a problem as the NS1 issue, which was that, in the later game, if you didn't spend money on an HMG you were basically useless. The HMG wasn't just better than the LMG, it was better that everything else for the most part. You would take perhaps one grenade launcher per squad, and the rest of the time it's simply a choice between HA or JP, and HMG. The only reason you don't use HMGs is because you can't afford them.
NS2 at the very least requires that you sort of consider weapon diversity, the team benefits from all of the weapon upgrades, sticking the HMG back in would make every other weapon upgrade useless, or, if it didn't, it would simply be the better version of the rifle, in which case it only exacerbates the existing worthlessness of the starting class in the lategame. Neither of these are positive outcomes.
Exosuits are not supposed to replace HMGs, because if they were you wouldn't need to use anything else, the idea is that exos fill part of the required role of the marine force, which they do, they carry a tonne of firepower and can level large amounts of enemy buildings and players in a short amount of time, and they can keep doing it as long as they're alive. They are however, quite slow, and a little fragile in return, so you need to screen them with a variety of other players using other weapons, they are a part of the marine team, not the entire marine team.
There is no gun or class or upgrade in NS2 that does what the HMG did, that is the idea, because the HMG did everything in NS1, aside from maybe three things. It could not 1. Weld. 2. Explode. or 3. Shoot through walls.
So, to fix that, you give everyone a welder too, build a siege turret, and give one guy a grenade launcher. Everything else is taken care of by the HMG.
In NS2, you need to use more things to achieve the same effect.
Comments
Personally, I'll take a JP before Shotgun if I don't have enough res for both. I'll probably even get a welder before SG depending on how many ARCs/Exos/MACs my team is fielding. The shotgun is not a direct upgrade to the LMG due to its slow reload and short range. It is generally more useful at self-defense, but that doesn't the LMG obsolete at all.
As for alien life-forms, every pres Fade bought is one less 'early' 'Onos your team has for the end-game. Which leads to my next point...
Onos can't dodge shots, and Fades have relatively low HP. W3/A3 JP Marines with HMG would wreck every Alien lifeform 1v1 and make the SG obsolete as well as the LMG and Exosuits. They also could be recycled by other marines, making them harder to destroy than Fades or Onos. Precisely because players with competitive-level aim are already capable of completely destroying aliens on public servers, adding this weapon would give further advantages to such players that this forum is already filled with complaints about.
Would love to see an alternative to shotgun while the game transitions into the lategame.
As the HMG had double damage compared to the LMG, 50% against buildings only recudes it to the level of the LMG, not making it worse. Taking into account the faster ROF, it actually dealt more DPS against buildings than the lmg. The faster reload time is very situational, since the 2,5 times bigger clip means that you have to reload it once for every 2,5 times you'd have to reload the LMG. The drawbacks of the HMG compared to the LMG are much smaller and more situational than the drawbacks between the SG and the LMG in current NS2, to say the least.
In NS1 nobody really thought that the HMG should have drawbacks compared to the LMG, since there we had two higher-tier weapons with different roles: the SG and the HMG. The HMG was arguably better overall than the SG, and justifiably so, being higher in tier and in price, but the differences were tangible enough for it to be a real choice between them.
The exos were implemented to replace the HMG late game but unknown worlds placed too many limitations on them for the same reasons many of you are shouting - "No weapon should be superior in every way to another." There is no chasing ability and the results in turtles and walls of push. Its so stagnant. Like two walls rubbing against eachother for centuries until one happens to give way.
I hate to sound negative but I think this is a terrible mindset in trying to balance this game. Especially in regards to the development of Exo suits. They made them sooooo situational by giving them extreme power while sacrificing mobility. No phase no beacon. There is almost NO strategy or variation involved in the late game because of these limitations. Save up, stick together, defend or push in a linear path. It is very frustrating and boring gameplay.
Either bring back the HMG or change the Exos to be weaker but phaseable and beaconable (real words), Make this game chaotic and mobile and fast and DYNAMIC. NO MORE WALLS OF PUSH PLEASE
It took a little while yes but you carry a million bullets for the HMG, and you have as long as you need because, seeing as you're carrying an HMG, you can murder anything that tries to stop you killing structures better than you can with... well... any other weapon in the game.
Less damage vs structures is not a reason to stop using the HMG, it's a reason to build a siege turret or have one guy bring a GL along, just as you already would.
It's like saying, oh I don't know, that... fades aren't better than skulks because they're not great at killing buildings. That's technically correct but the fade is still MILES better than the skulk because it can kill everything else and you can kill buildings under sheer weight of numbers.
It's not a situational drawback if it's not a significant drawback.
While the NS2 upgrade system leaves a lot to be desired, I do have to say that at the very least, it doesn't have any straight upgrades other than from the very basic equipment. That in itself is still a problem, because it means in the later game that if you don't spend money, you're basically useless.
But it is not as much of a problem as the NS1 issue, which was that, in the later game, if you didn't spend money on an HMG you were basically useless. The HMG wasn't just better than the LMG, it was better that everything else for the most part. You would take perhaps one grenade launcher per squad, and the rest of the time it's simply a choice between HA or JP, and HMG. The only reason you don't use HMGs is because you can't afford them.
NS2 at the very least requires that you sort of consider weapon diversity, the team benefits from all of the weapon upgrades, sticking the HMG back in would make every other weapon upgrade useless, or, if it didn't, it would simply be the better version of the rifle, in which case it only exacerbates the existing worthlessness of the starting class in the lategame. Neither of these are positive outcomes.
Exosuits are not supposed to replace HMGs, because if they were you wouldn't need to use anything else, the idea is that exos fill part of the required role of the marine force, which they do, they carry a tonne of firepower and can level large amounts of enemy buildings and players in a short amount of time, and they can keep doing it as long as they're alive. They are however, quite slow, and a little fragile in return, so you need to screen them with a variety of other players using other weapons, they are a part of the marine team, not the entire marine team.
There is no gun or class or upgrade in NS2 that does what the HMG did, that is the idea, because the HMG did everything in NS1, aside from maybe three things. It could not 1. Weld. 2. Explode. or 3. Shoot through walls.
So, to fix that, you give everyone a welder too, build a siege turret, and give one guy a grenade launcher. Everything else is taken care of by the HMG.
In NS2, you need to use more things to achieve the same effect.