matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Good god how are people so oblivious to this... The .1 second fire rate cap does not work, and never has. It even says in the code that is not working currently.
You can fire a shot every client command interval, so 30 shots a second. That translates to about 300 ms to fire all 10 shots with a script. I would be quite surprised if anyone can click 30 times per second, even if they have just one finger on the mouse and are click spamming like crazy.
If you adjust the server move rate even higher, the problem becomes instantly noticeable. Perhaps I will just record a short video showing this so people will realize that this still is a problem.
As for the fix, there are two ways it can be fixed, one which is quite easy (5 minutes is no lie) and the other being a little more involved.
Mmm... simplest way of testing is to up the pistol ammo to 50 or so, and change it into auto-fire (kClipSize = 50 and return false from GetPrimaryAttackRequiresPress). When I did that, the limit was about 0.085 seconds or so, or about 12 rounds/sec. Slightly too fast, but less than 30 rounds/sec (or possibly 15; non-auto-fire requires that the previous move did not have the attack key pressed, so the theoretical maximum fire rate for any non-autofire weapon would be 15 rounds per sec).
So there is indeed a small flaw in the animation that controls the pistol ROF; it allows the pistol to be emptied 10-20% faster than intended. Unfortunately, that animation does not have a speed control, so you need to go into 3DStudio to adjust that.
Personally, I would prefer an 8-round pistol that emptied in 1.2 sec (ie 0.15 sec per round) and kept about the same damage per clip. Would make pistol scripting mostly silly.
But if anyone have a video (or even better, a recording) showing how to empty a pistol in .3 seconds, I will definitely submit a proper bug report for it.
I think Matso hit the nail on the head. The best fix is to lower the amount of bullets in a clip, decrease the ROF, and keep the potential damage per clip the same.
So a massive nerf to the pistol to fix a problem in 1000 hrs of ns2 I don't think Ive seen in game more then 5 times? I don't believe this is as big of a problem as people think it is.
So a massive nerf to the pistol to fix a problem in 1000 hrs of ns2 I don't think Ive seen in game more then 5 times? I don't believe this is as big of a problem as people think it is.
What's a massive nerf? A 0.1 seconds rate limit isn't a massive nerf. What matso is describing isn't a massive nerf.
The funny thing is I actually ran a test version of the mod on the server once, and not a single person complained about the pistol, which means that the actual fix has 0 impact for most players, which is how I would expect it. Fixing the fire rate is not a 'nerf' for the pistol, we just on the previous page saw most people struggled to even break 10 clicks/second..... Why would you even suggest that?????
I will record the video later showing what is possible with a pistol script on the default moverate, the firerate with a pistol 'fix', and also what is possible with a script when the moverate is increased.
Good god how are people so oblivious to this... The .1 second fire rate cap does not work, and never has. It even says in the code that is not working currently.
You can fire a shot every client command interval, so 30 shots a second. That translates to about 300 ms to fire all 10 shots with a script. I would be quite surprised if anyone can click 30 times per second, even if they have just one finger on the mouse and are click spamming like crazy.
If you adjust the server move rate even higher, the problem becomes instantly noticeable. Perhaps I will just record a short video showing this so people will realize that this still is a problem.
As for the fix, there are two ways it can be fixed, one which is quite easy (5 minutes is no lie) and the other being a little more involved.
If you can really shoot it that fast with a script I have to say that I haven't seen many pistol scripters in the nearly 700 hours I've played.
Whenever they fix it I don't think the interval needs to be increased, .1 is fine. I tried the clicking test on the first page and I could get 70-90 quite steadily while still keeping my entire hand on the mouse for aiming.
The .1 second fire rate cap does not work, and never has. It even says in the code that is not working currently.
This is not entirely true, it did work at one point but was removed due to a bug regarding Onos stomp.
Important to consider that a cap would not stop scripting until it becomes something so incredibly low that it's effectiveness is severely impacted for all.
After testing it, it does appear that perhaps some recent changes (I believe what your saying about having a move command sent without fire being pressed is required, so it now requires 20 moves to complete), have actually impacted this, reducing the benefits of the script. Here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxdnbArG9CU is a video I recorded back in Feburary which shows what was possible on a default server with a script. It took me 20 frames to fire 10 shots there, or about 300ms. When tested today, it took on average about 40 frames @ 60 fps to fire 10 shots (so ~6-700ms). As a note, by hand I was able to hit 50 frames to fire all 10 shots, and that's while holding the mouse normally and not going all out. That said, it also increased the impacts of running the pistol 'fix', since it would appear that ends up adding some missed move time to the .1s, resulting in ~85 frames @ 60fps (1.38s) to fire a full clip. IMO the ideal rate cap is probably closer to .08, which will allow you to still achieve near 1s to empty the pistol clip, while fixing the advantage you can get using a script. Increasing the moverate did have the impacts I expected where the pistol can fire extremely quickly, buts that's mainly for use as an example that the animations are not blocking. With a moverate of 200 I could fire all 10 shots in 12 frames, or about 200ms.
Final point about the cap is more to eliminate the speed benefits of using the script - it will ways make aiming easier to simply hold a button rather than spamming one, but the people that gain most from that generally have subpar tracking already, which makes its impacts pretty minimal.
The problem I see is that we have players from teh comp scene saying "I can click 10 times a second" and the casual gamers who struggle to click 4-5 times a second (consistently).
This just in. Pro players click quickly, its the first step to being good.
Clearly your missing the whole point to my post...if you read some of the posts below yours people are saying they get roughly 7-8 clicks per second max...and these are people who are pro players. I played enough counterstrike, DoD and other games to know what people can do. I also played enough NS1 to see what scripters do...10 rounds a second is too many for even most comp players to do consistently without a script. This is why scripting is so popular...heck most CS players use scripts bound to m-wheel to get maximum rate of fire without needing to actually click.
I would much rather see the pistol script work around be fixed, some of us can fire as a pretty decent rate...and I would hate to be hampered at something I can do naturally (much to the shigrin that some dummies I can only do with a script otherwise). :P
I fire middle finger (right mouse) and I find I can readily fire it much faster than my index.
so let's just make the 0.1 limit actually be the 0.1 limit and fix that so scripts cant circumvent it and empty a clip in .5 or .6 seconds
That being said I'd would absolutely love to see a slower firing MUCH MORE POWERFUL MAGNUM type pistol be added for purchase at the armory.
If a person fires too rapidly, lower accuracy dramatically. Prevents the machine pistol sniping of lerks/onos/fades while still allowing a player to survive skulk attacks up close.
No, pistol scripting can not be deterred, let alone prevented. The only solution is an automatic pistol. The bug fix is irrelevant, hardly anyone uses a script to blatantly shoot faster than 0.1 per shot anyway unless they want to get banned.
No one will ever agree on whether or not pistol scripts are prevalent, so let's skip that and get to the heart of the matter - scripts aside, is the pistol really better for being semi-auto? What does clicking the mouse rapidly add to the game? Yes it distinguishes it better from the rifle, but that's the only positive. More importantly it makes the pistol extremely difficult to use to the point that it's just an ineffective weapon for most players. I suppose being able to aim while clicking the button really fast could be called a skill curve, but just tracking aliens in and of itself takes plenty of skill as it is. Secondary weapons should be weaker than primary weapons, that doesn't mean they should be dramatically less accessible.
Also some people confuse pistol scripting with mouse software settings. Example I have a Razer mouse along with the software, I've got the update settings and the mouse clicking settings on pretty much the highest it can go (use to it at work) and the speed you can fire pistol bullets at is crazy. I'll try and post a video of it when I get home.
Also some people confuse pistol scripting with mouse software settings. Example I have a Razer mouse along with the software, I've got the update settings and the mouse clicking settings on pretty much the highest it can go (use to it at work) and the speed you can fire pistol bullets at is crazy. I'll try and post a video of it when I get home.
I don't confuse them, I consider both equally exploitative.
If the clip size and ROF get nerfed, then a faster reload speed or damage increase would have to happen, so either reload a lot faster, or shoot slower and do more damage
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
After testing it, it does appear that perhaps some recent changes (I believe what your saying about having a move command sent without fire being pressed is required, so it now requires 20 moves to complete), have actually impacted this, reducing the benefits of the script. Here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxdnbArG9CU is a video I recorded back in Feburary which shows what was possible on a default server with a script. It took me 20 frames to fire 10 shots there, or about 300ms. When tested today, it took on average about 40 frames @ 60 fps to fire 10 shots (so ~6-700ms). As a note, by hand I was able to hit 50 frames to fire all 10 shots, and that's while holding the mouse normally and not going all out. That said, it also increased the impacts of running the pistol 'fix', since it would appear that ends up adding some missed move time to the .1s, resulting in ~85 frames @ 60fps (1.38s) to fire a full clip. IMO the ideal rate cap is probably closer to .08, which will allow you to still achieve near 1s to empty the pistol clip, while fixing the advantage you can get using a script. Increasing the moverate did have the impacts I expected where the pistol can fire extremely quickly, buts that's mainly for use as an example that the animations are not blocking. With a moverate of 200 I could fire all 10 shots in 12 frames, or about 200ms.
Final point about the cap is more to eliminate the speed benefits of using the script - it will ways make aiming easier to simply hold a button rather than spamming one, but the people that gain most from that generally have subpar tracking already, which makes its impacts pretty minimal.
Nice. A simple way of showing that its not limited is to use "cheats 1; speed 0.1" and seeing that you are still firing at the same rate.
That the limits is close to 13-15 ROF due to move rate limitations is probably why it wasn't detected earlier... but in the future, it's quite likely that move rate will be increased a bit, so might as well fix it.
Patch submitted, should be included in 247. Limits you to empty your pistol in 1.0 seconds.
Pistol scripting would take about 5 minutes to fix.
Pistol scripting is still non-adressed.
@ezekel I've never seen an atom. Atoms therefore don't exist.
What's the solution?
inb4 you think that the main issue with pistol scripting is the speed at which players fire, rather than the fact that they fire without having to push or click anything.
Limit RoF drastically. Never said I had the perfect solutions I'm saying an average solution is ten times better than ignoring the problem. When you get flat tire, you use the spare one, even it's the "only 50 miles" one, you don't keep rolling with it hoping that it will go away if you ignore it.
Some people suggested limit RoF, boost damage. I like that, but really, lots and lots of other suggestions have been made, which are probably better than what I could come up with.
Pistol scripting would take about 5 minutes to fix.
Pistol scripting is still non-adressed.
@ezekel I've never seen an atom. Atoms therefore don't exist.
"adressed" isn't a word, also after that statement I can conclude you're a -snip-
I still make errors in a language I learned by myself online; sue me. Also, using spelling arguments simply shows you have no other way to defend your point of view. Bad points for you.
put in muzzle climb already, no one even professionals can one hand shoot a pistol that fast and be accurate, WHILE JUMPING and strafing.
the only hackers and scripters are always marines, it's funny
In addition to what current1y said above, I've also no sure that arguing that hackers and scripters choose the ranged combat side in a ranged vs melee game as a point against the pistol specifically is particularly valid.
Also some people confuse pistol scripting with mouse software settings. Example I have a Razer mouse along with the software, I've got the update settings and the mouse clicking settings on pretty much the highest it can go (use to it at work) and the speed you can fire pistol bullets at is crazy. I'll try and post a video of it when I get home.
I don't confuse them, I consider both equally exploitative.
I said naught about macroing, just like in windows you can change your mouse settings, as you can in Razer software, double click speed to the highest and the polling rate set to highest.
I would still like to see a time limit put on the pistol so that everyone shoots the same no matter what mouse they have.
Edit: Oops wrong quote, was supposed to be the one down.
the netcode is wonky in the sense that you will still get damage all at once from any of the weapons. in terms of receiving damage, NS2 with 50 ping feels like other games with 300 ping
even if they "fix" the pistol issue it will still feel very lame when you get killed, which is where the problem comes from
No, pistol scripting can not be deterred, let alone prevented. The only solution is an automatic pistol. The bug fix is irrelevant, hardly anyone uses a script to blatantly shoot faster than 0.1 per shot anyway unless they want to get banned.
No one will ever agree on whether or not pistol scripts are prevalent, so let's skip that and get to the heart of the matter - scripts aside, is the pistol really better for being semi-auto? What does clicking the mouse rapidly add to the game? Yes it distinguishes it better from the rifle, but that's the only positive. More importantly it makes the pistol extremely difficult to use to the point that it's just an ineffective weapon for most players. I suppose being able to aim while clicking the button really fast could be called a skill curve, but just tracking aliens in and of itself takes plenty of skill as it is. Secondary weapons should be weaker than primary weapons, that doesn't mean they should be dramatically less accessible.
THIS FOR THE LOVE OF GAMING THIS.
Can we stop pretending that the the ROF bug is the issue? Yes it makes Pistol Scripts worse but that is all it does, it makes Pistol Scripts worse. It does not enable Pistol Scripts. Pistol Scripts will always be in the game as long as you are forced to click to fire.
What does clicking the button as fast as possible do for the gameplay? Clicking that fast is a skill, but it is not a useful or desired one for the game. People that script will always have an advantage, and making it auto would change nothing about the game.
Comments
So there is indeed a small flaw in the animation that controls the pistol ROF; it allows the pistol to be emptied 10-20% faster than intended. Unfortunately, that animation does not have a speed control, so you need to go into 3DStudio to adjust that.
Personally, I would prefer an 8-round pistol that emptied in 1.2 sec (ie 0.15 sec per round) and kept about the same damage per clip. Would make pistol scripting mostly silly.
But if anyone have a video (or even better, a recording) showing how to empty a pistol in .3 seconds, I will definitely submit a proper bug report for it.
Really? OMG what news? /end sarcasm
Clearly your missing the whole point to my post...if you read some of the posts below yours people are saying they get roughly 7-8 clicks per second max...and these are people who are pro players.
I played enough counterstrike, DoD and other games to know what people can do.
I also played enough NS1 to see what scripters do...10 rounds a second is too many for even most comp players to do consistently without a script.
This is why scripting is so popular...heck most CS players use scripts bound to m-wheel to get maximum rate of fire without needing to actually click.
I would much rather see the pistol script work around be fixed, some of us can fire as a pretty decent rate...and I would hate to be hampered at something I can do naturally (much to the shigrin that some dummies I can only do with a script otherwise). :P
I fire middle finger (right mouse) and I find I can readily fire it much faster than my index.
so let's just make the 0.1 limit actually be the 0.1 limit and fix that so scripts cant circumvent it and empty a clip in .5 or .6 seconds
That being said I'd would absolutely love to see a slower firing MUCH MORE POWERFUL MAGNUM type pistol be added for purchase at the armory.
Also some people confuse pistol scripting with mouse software settings.
Example I have a Razer mouse along with the software, I've got the update settings and the mouse clicking settings on pretty much the highest it can go (use to it at work) and the speed you can fire pistol bullets at is crazy. I'll try and post a video of it when I get home.
@rockymarc a macro is the same exact thing
That the limits is close to 13-15 ROF due to move rate limitations is probably why it wasn't detected earlier... but in the future, it's quite likely that move rate will be increased a bit, so might as well fix it.
Patch submitted, should be included in 247. Limits you to empty your pistol in 1.0 seconds.
I said naught about macroing, just like in windows you can change your mouse settings, as you can in Razer software, double click speed to the highest and the polling rate set to highest.
I would still like to see a time limit put on the pistol so that everyone shoots the same no matter what mouse they have.
Edit: Oops wrong quote, was supposed to be the one down.
Can we stop pretending that the the ROF bug is the issue? Yes it makes Pistol Scripts worse but that is all it does, it makes Pistol Scripts worse. It does not enable Pistol Scripts. Pistol Scripts will always be in the game as long as you are forced to click to fire.
What does clicking the button as fast as possible do for the gameplay? Clicking that fast is a skill, but it is not a useful or desired one for the game. People that script will always have an advantage, and making it auto would change nothing about the game.