I'm not worried about that at all.. grenades are free in battlefield. I'm assuming they'd either have a cost or be non-refillable in this game.
Just wait till a 10 marine hive rush with grenades on a pub server. I'm not saying that you can't make a non-spammable grenade system, but most of the games I've seen with grenades result in undesirable spam.
Just another reason to limit the amount of players to 6-8 per team
jkjk
I get what you're saying but I don't think it really matters that much if 10 marines baserush with grenades... 10 marines baserushing with anything is going to be brutal
Gas grenades were voted down hard in the Google Moderator group when Flayra proposed them. Ordinary hand grenades are cool, I don't know why they need special effects.
Now if we do get our hand grenades change the pulse grenade to an EMP grenade. We know the marines have the technology for it. (it's an upgrade for macs if you didn't know.)
In my mind, the only reason you'd want grenades is to clear vents. Currently, the only way to block off a vent sans-JP is to mine it or camp it, and some can't be mined. If grenades are too powerful, it'll take away the small glory the GL has. I trust they'll get it right.
In my mind, the only reason you'd want grenades is to clear vents. Currently, the only way to block off a vent sans-JP is to mine it or camp it, and some can't be mined. If grenades are too powerful, it'll take away the small glory the GL has. I trust they'll get it right.
It'll be great for getting skulks that are biting RT's. Throw a grenade behind the RT, and they'll be forced to either try and soak the damage or to leave cover and open themselves up to be shot.
Now if we do get our hand grenades change the pulse grenade to an EMP grenade. We know the marines have the technology for it. (it's an upgrade for macs if you didn't know.)
EMP is about to be removed from MACs. It already happened in the Balance mod.
After all it's not really logical that an "EMP" causes aliens to lose their biological energy while mechanical marine assets stay completely unaffected.
I did not like them when they got introduced into ns1, was about the time combat mod was released (or soon after) and simply meant early game aliens were not safe in vents.
I don't see them being brought into NS2 as being a good thing, after all its often touted that smart aliens hide and don't engage in direct combat but wait until marines have passed and then attack from behind. Not being able to hide in a vent thanks to grenades makes this all the harder.
It'll be great for getting skulks that are biting RT's. Throw a grenade behind the RT, and they'll be forced to either try and soak the damage or to leave cover and open themselves up to be shot.
I kind of enjoy the RT-dance. It's like playing that slapping game except now you're using teeth and guns and can feel manly about it.
I did not like them when they got introduced into ns1, was about the time combat mod was released (or soon after) and simply meant early game aliens were not safe in vents.
I don't see them being brought into NS2 as being a good thing, after all its often touted that smart aliens hide and don't engage in direct combat but wait until marines have passed and then attack from behind. Not being able to hide in a vent thanks to grenades makes this all the harder.
This is true, but it also eliminates the problem of combating vents before jetpacks/GLs arrive. Skulks can also choose to wait until marines are gone and then just base attack or RT attack. I think you're right though - by introducing a solution to something, another problem rises.
I did not like them when they got introduced into ns1, was about the time combat mod was released (or soon after) and simply meant early game aliens were not safe in vents.
I don't see them being brought into NS2 as being a good thing, after all its often touted that smart aliens hide and don't engage in direct combat but wait until marines have passed and then attack from behind. Not being able to hide in a vent thanks to grenades makes this all the harder.
This is true, but it also eliminates the problem of combating vents before jetpacks/GLs arrive. Skulks can also choose to wait until marines are gone and then just base attack or RT attack. I think you're right though - by introducing a solution to something, another problem rises.
Aliens should have the vents to themselves prior to either JP's or GL's...otherwise why bother with either.
Marines should need to make some strategic decisions..and not have a way around every advantage aliens have.
In NS1 after grenades came out you used to die a lot more as a skulk in a vent and had to hide around corners to avoid splash damage.
Skulks are not exactly the best unit in this game...and adding grenades just further reduces any influence they can have in the small window of the early game.
Jp's or GL's can be up very early (if rushed I think even around 5 min mark is not unachievable (though I dont time these things so could be a min or so out)).
aliens have a hard time pegging in pro-active marine teams and holding any ground...being able to sneak up into a vent is often the only escape (as if a marine can see you he can shoot you).
I always thought Grenades had no place in NS1...and feel the same about NS2.
So Marines will get Xenocide? I would LOVE to see a Marine rush with Cluster Grenades instead of Shotguns, all cooking a grenade in their hand and standing around the Hive, haha.
You still can avoid easily the grenades in the majority of the vents, you are just not totally unattainable anymore, that's all.
And I totally think it's a good thing.
So Marines will get Xenocide? I would LOVE to see a Marine rush with Cluster Grenades instead of Shotguns, all cooking a grenade in their hand and standing around the Hive, haha.
No they dont get xenocide...these grenades sound like they will actually kill aliens....xenocide for aliens cant kill an a3 marine...
Well all I have to say Regnareb is that is the same thing ppl said in NS1...but it was what caused me to stop playing...sure I tried to learn to like it but it just felt cheap and turned me off the game.
It became a case of ;
"if you think there is a skulk camping a door way waiting to ambush, simply lob a grenade, whilst it may not kill him it should do enough damage to allow you to finish them off or cause them to flee as the recognise that without full health they are more likely to die than kill".
Now add in an ability for marines to close down a corridor with gas grenades or have a cluster grenade thats 4 grens in one....
Meanwhile lerks will still have to trail spores (because sitting in teh distance firing gas was soo unfun for marines and presented no risk to the lerk).....
But I guess its balanced because we all know how dangerous it is to lob a grenade at an enemy that relies on melee...I mean you might risk having them aliens seeing you...and then what..guess you might have to shoot them.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Balance wise:
I think at a maximum it should be 1 grenade per marine per life - and you can choose which type of grenade for a certain purpose but they all cost the same. (much easier to balance and sends the signal of purpose instead of one being better than the rest)
OR 1 grenade per marine but they are detrimentally expensive like 5 to 10 pres. Though I shudder when i imagine pubs with marines armory humping and farming grenades to continue a turtle.
Area denial over time, area clearing, and whatever the heck pulse grenades do?
They should be loud, giving away the marine's position from a distance, but should not come with the typical long delays that are used when weapon switching.. should be a fast throw due to situations when they are needed, or else it wont be worth switching to them.
Lastly none of these grenades should :
A) inhibit movement for either player create any visually obstructing effects
C) take a pre existing weapon slot
D) be immune from last inv
E) be unable to "cook" a grenade
F) be serverside predicted (clientside looks WAY better, see BT mod's GL nades now)
G) be further thrown than what a 45 degree angle leap can accomplish, distance wise
H) bounce off of /collide with friendly players
I) be without a HUD outline/indicator to see where your grenade trajectory went in chaotic moments
J) be silent when glancing or bouncing off of surfaces and objects
K) make the GL obsolete (except for finally removing player damage from GLs - the "anti structure" weapon)
L) be effected by offset and invisible world clipping - the player expects to bank shots off of the visible geometry - not that invisible wall which is angled differently.
Well.. that would be my start for design, at least.
Well all I have to say Regnareb is that is the same thing ppl said in NS1...but it was what caused me to stop playing...sure I tried to learn to like it but it just felt cheap and turned me off the game.
It became a case of ;
"if you think there is a skulk camping a door way waiting to ambush, simply lob a grenade, whilst it may not kill him it should do enough damage to allow you to finish them off or cause them to flee as the recognise that without full health they are more likely to die than kill".
Now add in an ability for marines to close down a corridor with gas grenades or have a cluster grenade thats 4 grens in one....
Meanwhile lerks will still have to trail spores (because sitting in teh distance firing gas was soo unfun for marines and presented no risk to the lerk).....
But I guess its balanced because we all know how dangerous it is to lob a grenade at an enemy that relies on melee...I mean you might risk having them aliens seeing you...and then what..guess you might have to shoot them.
It was really really really easy to avoid the grenades in NS1, with the huge sound when the marine remove the clip, and the timer between that time and the time he can throw the grenade (and then for it to explode). In fact it can be a huge handicap for the marine, because it tales a long time for him to throw his grenade, and you can surprise him unarmed a lot easily. It was a great thing in NS1. It's just a matter of balance.
I really don't see the problem with that. If you click and your grenade is thrown immediately and it explodes with huge damages, of course it won't be good. But be serious, it won't be like that.
The grenades were more made for suppressive fire, especially for defending the RTs.
I do not really see how offering different ammo types for the grenade launcher is going to offer Marines with any majorly new tactics or strategies. Unless the new ammo types are extremely powerful, I feel as though marines will still be faced with the fact that it is a 25 Pres investment that is only useful in a number of small situations, and requires constant covering from friendly players to prevent ganks.
However I do like the idea of new ammo types for weapons. It would be cool if most of the marine weapons had different ammo choices available with players able to choose from the stock ammunition type ( When the weapon is purchased ) or a specialized ammo type for additional Pres. If new ammunition types were to implemented, I would prefer that it was not added to the Marine teams available tech though a specific research option per ammo type so that the available choices are not controlled directly by the teams commander like Alien evolutions. If all available ammo purchases became available through and advanced armory for example, the player will have more freedom of choice for how they wish to alter their currently held weapon. These ammunition types could also make the advanced armory a more enticing Team Investment and not just a simple Tech-milestone requirement on the way to Jet packs.
If new ammunition types were available I would imagine it would implemented with the majority of Marine's purchased weapons receiving an all around damage/accuracy nerf as well as a general Pres price cut. For example the Shotgun could be lowered to a 15 Pres purchase with overall damage, accuracy lowered ( The rate of fire could also be increased / decreased to get it to act differently from other ammo types ). To get the shotgun to behave more like the current Shotgun, the Player could then choose the ammo type that reflects that for an additional 5 Pres bringing it up to the same cost and profile of the current shotgun. However the Player could also choose from maybe 1-2 other ammo types with different effects, maybe a low damage round that slows opponents, or incendiary rounds.
Another idea for ammunition types could be for it to help scale up weapons like the Rifle for marines with excess Pres in the mid to late game. Ammo types for the rifle for example could be bought for Pres to increase that weapon's ammo capacity or tweak its accuracy, fire rate, or damage to change what it is better suited for.
Without the Price reduction to all stock weapons however new ammunition types would still not be all that enticing and would probably be seen more as a gimmick in the current state of the game. Even in the late game with marines a large amount of map control and several resource extractors, a player would still be more focused on not running out of Pres for Exos, the JP and shotgun combo, or support items like welders and mines. This same sought of pricing system appears to already be taking place on the Alien's team in the new 'Sewlek Balance mod' with the majority of the higher lifeforms receiving a slight reduction in initial Pres cost with additional Pres purchases needed for additional evolutions.
Oh...Well I never liked the thrown Grenades, kinda cheap that you always spawn with one. In NS2 I do not really see the NEED for them to have them, all it will do is add a whole bunch of spam or cheap after death kills. Being killed by a grenade or getting kills with a grenade is nowhere near as engaging or in your face as the majority of NS2's combat and to me it would damage my gameplay experience to be constantly killed by someone I cant see. Hand grenades would also make groups of lower lifeforms completely obsolete and attacking marine bases and phase gates even more difficult.
The mines are working fine to keep most of the aliens out of vents and differ from Grenades as they require thoughtful positioning from a marine and bad observation skills from an alien to be successful. Mines also have a number of effective counter measures to remove them. Grenades however can only be effected by whips (Which are overly expensive and hard to position in places where thrown hand grenades would be encountered) or the old version of the Vortex which is no longer available.
In situations where a gorge is able to shoot at a base from a protected vent early in the game in public servers on say...Refinery for example, is more a case of a mistake in the map's design rather than a representation of the current team balance so that kind of situation should not add to the need for Grenades in early game. I have yet to see any unfair vent advantages granted to aliens in the standard competitive maps.
I like IronHorse's idea. But I definitely think that they should cost ~5 res. You can buy as many as you want but you can only hold one at a time. I think with a cost of 5 res it will be hard to turtle, 5 res per throw gets really expensive after like 1 minute lol.
I like IronHorse's idea. But I definitely think that they should cost ~5 res. You can buy as many as you want but you can only hold one at a time. I think with a cost of 5 res it will be hard to turtle, 5 res per throw gets really expensive after like 1 minute lol.
I think that if Grenades had to be put in, they would need a minimum cost close to that of Mines (15 Pres) so that a marine would not be able to afford to get them every single re-spawn. I think there is a very important reason why mines always come in a three pack. If I could always by a single Mine for 5 res nearly every spawn, that would be a major advantage for me in nearly every first engagement as I could always secure a entrance path from alien attack.
Forcing a minimum cost for things like Mines or grenades would make players think more of how best to use them and also creates a strong Pro / Con effect to the games economy by making Pres purchases later in the game more difficult if the entire team bought mines or grenades in the early game similar to an Alien team evolving Lerks will reduce the number of available Fades later in the game.
This same kind of system should be included for the Hand grenades to prevent them from appearing at nearly every single re-spawn or engagement as it would just be overly demoralizing for an Alien player to have to encounter them so much. Dieing while still holding a single grenade would also not have anywhere near as meaningful an effect on the Marine player as losing an expensive weapon like the Shotgun or full pack of Mines.
5 Pres is quite expensive for a one-time grenade. It's essentially equivalent to a single mine. Let's say it costs 5 res.
A grenade is an active area denial weapon. The marine determines when and where it should be used, thus requiring his presence and potential alert to aliens. If it had to be switched to, this would leave the marine vulnerable for a period of time. Grenades are limited to being thrown according to the arc/distance available.
A mine is a passive area denial weapon. The marine determines where it should be used, but not exactly when it is used. Mines can also be rendered useless by lerks or by other higher lifeforms tanking the mine and running away/healing. Since mines are fire and forget weapons, marines would hardly be vulnerable when using them. Mines are limited to being placed where marines can place them.
5 Pres sounds like a good price to me for what they should accomplish. I also like Iron Horse's proposals, except that grenades could take the place of mines. I think the amount of time you should be vulnerable when throwing grenades should be equivalent to about 3/4 the time it takes to reload the LMG. I also propose light damage, else we'd see a feed gate turn into a "Everyone throw your nades on 1...2...3..." and all the fades die.
Well all I have to say Regnareb is that is the same thing ppl said in NS1...but it was what caused me to stop playing...sure I tried to learn to like it but it just felt cheap and turned me off the game.
It became a case of ;
"if you think there is a skulk camping a door way waiting to ambush, simply lob a grenade, whilst it may not kill him it should do enough damage to allow you to finish them off or cause them to flee as the recognise that without full health they are more likely to die than kill".
Now add in an ability for marines to close down a corridor with gas grenades or have a cluster grenade thats 4 grens in one....
Meanwhile lerks will still have to trail spores (because sitting in teh distance firing gas was soo unfun for marines and presented no risk to the lerk).....
But I guess its balanced because we all know how dangerous it is to lob a grenade at an enemy that relies on melee...I mean you might risk having them aliens seeing you...and then what..guess you might have to shoot them.
It was really really really easy to avoid the grenades in NS1, with the huge sound when the marine remove the clip, and the timer between that time and the time he can throw the grenade (and then for it to explode). In fact it can be a huge handicap for the marine, because it tales a long time for him to throw his grenade, and you can surprise him unarmed a lot easily. It was a great thing in NS1. It's just a matter of balance.
I really don't see the problem with that. If you click and your grenade is thrown immediately and it explodes with huge damages, of course it won't be good. But be serious, it won't be like that.
The grenades were more made for suppressive fire, especially for defending the RTs.
Sorry I think we might just disagree on this one.
I dont see it being that risky for anyone but a lone marine (and lone marines are rare)....and if your in the vent you not exactly likely to try to run through a grenade to attack the marine.
As in NS1 personal grenades simply made it too easy for marines early game and removed the need to get GL's or JP's to counter the vents.
The fact that a skulk cant use the extractor to shield himself from the marine further hampers any ability to harrass.
The marine could safley lob a grenade that will kill the skulk...removing the need to position for LOS to actually shoot....at teh very least it will severly damage the skulk making finishing him off easy.
You say it wont be a grenade that does lots of damage...umm a cluster grenade is 4 grenades in 1...does not sound like it will do low amounts of damage....seriously who has a 4x grenade that does not do large amounts of damage?
This whole grenade concept is a very bad idea...as I said before...it was what resulted in me (and many friends) to stop playing NS1....I am already struggling to find much pleasure playing aliens anymore as it is, there is very little fun or enjoyment unless there are serious team balance issues (and that in itself is not fun).
I can happily play marines and be enjoying myself, even when its clear aliens are winning.
On the flip side most alien victories I encounter are almost a surprise...you feel like your losing right up to the point you win (or marines conceded).
The enjoyment level of playing aliens was far greater around the time of release than it is now.
Changes like adding personal grenades to the marine inventory will do nothing to help the enjoyment of alien gameplay...instead just add another way to no doubt 1 shot aliens.
If you are in a vent, like I said, in the majority of the vents, you only had to strafe when you heard the grenade going and you were safe.
Regarding the RT, the grenade is a direct counter and it is great! Especially in NS2 where the RT are huge shield for the aliens (while it shouldn't help them). The marine throw his grenade, forcing the alien to go out and attack him/flee, if you stay behind the RT you die. Easy. It's exactly what NS2 is missing and it will solve a lot of problems.
Btw by the time the marine have to throw his grenade and take his weapon you were usually near him and ready to bite. Everything as to be balanced, that's all.
I have never seen anybody complaining about grenades in NS1 after they were balanced. I really don't see how you can complain about them, it's a great addition and is needed in a lot of situation, while being very easily countered by the aliens.
nades? Well ok but then I want something that can counter this, maybe the Hydras can destroy them or the babblers?
Whips already counter GLs to a ridiculous degree. Where is the Marine counter for bile bomb?? Oh there isn't one, but nobody seems to mind. I'd be perfectly happy if marines got hand grenades that would not be countered by anything, even whips.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The one thing I don't like about grenades is that they always use damage spheres. Is there anything wrong with a damage disc spreading out, across the floor?
Comments
Just another reason to limit the amount of players to 6-8 per team
jkjk
I get what you're saying but I don't think it really matters that much if 10 marines baserush with grenades... 10 marines baserushing with anything is going to be brutal
It'll be great for getting skulks that are biting RT's. Throw a grenade behind the RT, and they'll be forced to either try and soak the damage or to leave cover and open themselves up to be shot.
EMP is about to be removed from MACs. It already happened in the Balance mod.
After all it's not really logical that an "EMP" causes aliens to lose their biological energy while mechanical marine assets stay completely unaffected.
I don't see them being brought into NS2 as being a good thing, after all its often touted that smart aliens hide and don't engage in direct combat but wait until marines have passed and then attack from behind. Not being able to hide in a vent thanks to grenades makes this all the harder.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Oy3HNK3u9Q4
This is true, but it also eliminates the problem of combating vents before jetpacks/GLs arrive. Skulks can also choose to wait until marines are gone and then just base attack or RT attack. I think you're right though - by introducing a solution to something, another problem rises.
that's one bad BF3 player IMO
Grenades would be just.... swell
So many times I've been like man.. would it ever be nice to have a grenade right about now.
Aliens should have the vents to themselves prior to either JP's or GL's...otherwise why bother with either.
Marines should need to make some strategic decisions..and not have a way around every advantage aliens have.
In NS1 after grenades came out you used to die a lot more as a skulk in a vent and had to hide around corners to avoid splash damage.
Skulks are not exactly the best unit in this game...and adding grenades just further reduces any influence they can have in the small window of the early game.
Jp's or GL's can be up very early (if rushed I think even around 5 min mark is not unachievable (though I dont time these things so could be a min or so out)).
aliens have a hard time pegging in pro-active marine teams and holding any ground...being able to sneak up into a vent is often the only escape (as if a marine can see you he can shoot you).
I always thought Grenades had no place in NS1...and feel the same about NS2.
And I totally think it's a good thing.
Well all I have to say Regnareb is that is the same thing ppl said in NS1...but it was what caused me to stop playing...sure I tried to learn to like it but it just felt cheap and turned me off the game.
It became a case of ;
"if you think there is a skulk camping a door way waiting to ambush, simply lob a grenade, whilst it may not kill him it should do enough damage to allow you to finish them off or cause them to flee as the recognise that without full health they are more likely to die than kill".
Now add in an ability for marines to close down a corridor with gas grenades or have a cluster grenade thats 4 grens in one....
Meanwhile lerks will still have to trail spores (because sitting in teh distance firing gas was soo unfun for marines and presented no risk to the lerk).....
But I guess its balanced because we all know how dangerous it is to lob a grenade at an enemy that relies on melee...I mean you might risk having them aliens seeing you...and then what..guess you might have to shoot them.
I think at a maximum it should be 1 grenade per marine per life - and you can choose which type of grenade for a certain purpose but they all cost the same. (much easier to balance and sends the signal of purpose instead of one being better than the rest)
OR 1 grenade per marine but they are detrimentally expensive like 5 to 10 pres. Though I shudder when i imagine pubs with marines armory humping and farming grenades to continue a turtle.
Area denial over time, area clearing, and whatever the heck pulse grenades do?
They should be loud, giving away the marine's position from a distance, but should not come with the typical long delays that are used when weapon switching.. should be a fast throw due to situations when they are needed, or else it wont be worth switching to them.
Lastly none of these grenades should :
A) inhibit movement for either player
C) take a pre existing weapon slot
D) be immune from last inv
E) be unable to "cook" a grenade
F) be serverside predicted (clientside looks WAY better, see BT mod's GL nades now)
G) be further thrown than what a 45 degree angle leap can accomplish, distance wise
H) bounce off of /collide with friendly players
I) be without a HUD outline/indicator to see where your grenade trajectory went in chaotic moments
J) be silent when glancing or bouncing off of surfaces and objects
K) make the GL obsolete (except for finally removing player damage from GLs - the "anti structure" weapon)
L) be effected by offset and invisible world clipping - the player expects to bank shots off of the visible geometry - not that invisible wall which is angled differently.
Well.. that would be my start for design, at least.
I really don't see the problem with that. If you click and your grenade is thrown immediately and it explodes with huge damages, of course it won't be good. But be serious, it won't be like that.
The grenades were more made for suppressive fire, especially for defending the RTs.
However I do like the idea of new ammo types for weapons. It would be cool if most of the marine weapons had different ammo choices available with players able to choose from the stock ammunition type ( When the weapon is purchased ) or a specialized ammo type for additional Pres. If new ammunition types were to implemented, I would prefer that it was not added to the Marine teams available tech though a specific research option per ammo type so that the available choices are not controlled directly by the teams commander like Alien evolutions. If all available ammo purchases became available through and advanced armory for example, the player will have more freedom of choice for how they wish to alter their currently held weapon. These ammunition types could also make the advanced armory a more enticing Team Investment and not just a simple Tech-milestone requirement on the way to Jet packs.
If new ammunition types were available I would imagine it would implemented with the majority of Marine's purchased weapons receiving an all around damage/accuracy nerf as well as a general Pres price cut. For example the Shotgun could be lowered to a 15 Pres purchase with overall damage, accuracy lowered ( The rate of fire could also be increased / decreased to get it to act differently from other ammo types ). To get the shotgun to behave more like the current Shotgun, the Player could then choose the ammo type that reflects that for an additional 5 Pres bringing it up to the same cost and profile of the current shotgun. However the Player could also choose from maybe 1-2 other ammo types with different effects, maybe a low damage round that slows opponents, or incendiary rounds.
Another idea for ammunition types could be for it to help scale up weapons like the Rifle for marines with excess Pres in the mid to late game. Ammo types for the rifle for example could be bought for Pres to increase that weapon's ammo capacity or tweak its accuracy, fire rate, or damage to change what it is better suited for.
Without the Price reduction to all stock weapons however new ammunition types would still not be all that enticing and would probably be seen more as a gimmick in the current state of the game. Even in the late game with marines a large amount of map control and several resource extractors, a player would still be more focused on not running out of Pres for Exos, the JP and shotgun combo, or support items like welders and mines. This same sought of pricing system appears to already be taking place on the Alien's team in the new 'Sewlek Balance mod' with the majority of the higher lifeforms receiving a slight reduction in initial Pres cost with additional Pres purchases needed for additional evolutions.
They are talking about individual, personal, hand-held grenades, not different ammo for the GL.
The mines are working fine to keep most of the aliens out of vents and differ from Grenades as they require thoughtful positioning from a marine and bad observation skills from an alien to be successful. Mines also have a number of effective counter measures to remove them. Grenades however can only be effected by whips (Which are overly expensive and hard to position in places where thrown hand grenades would be encountered) or the old version of the Vortex which is no longer available.
In situations where a gorge is able to shoot at a base from a protected vent early in the game in public servers on say...Refinery for example, is more a case of a mistake in the map's design rather than a representation of the current team balance so that kind of situation should not add to the need for Grenades in early game. I have yet to see any unfair vent advantages granted to aliens in the standard competitive maps.
I think that if Grenades had to be put in, they would need a minimum cost close to that of Mines (15 Pres) so that a marine would not be able to afford to get them every single re-spawn. I think there is a very important reason why mines always come in a three pack. If I could always by a single Mine for 5 res nearly every spawn, that would be a major advantage for me in nearly every first engagement as I could always secure a entrance path from alien attack.
Forcing a minimum cost for things like Mines or grenades would make players think more of how best to use them and also creates a strong Pro / Con effect to the games economy by making Pres purchases later in the game more difficult if the entire team bought mines or grenades in the early game similar to an Alien team evolving Lerks will reduce the number of available Fades later in the game.
This same kind of system should be included for the Hand grenades to prevent them from appearing at nearly every single re-spawn or engagement as it would just be overly demoralizing for an Alien player to have to encounter them so much. Dieing while still holding a single grenade would also not have anywhere near as meaningful an effect on the Marine player as losing an expensive weapon like the Shotgun or full pack of Mines.
A grenade is an active area denial weapon. The marine determines when and where it should be used, thus requiring his presence and potential alert to aliens. If it had to be switched to, this would leave the marine vulnerable for a period of time. Grenades are limited to being thrown according to the arc/distance available.
A mine is a passive area denial weapon. The marine determines where it should be used, but not exactly when it is used. Mines can also be rendered useless by lerks or by other higher lifeforms tanking the mine and running away/healing. Since mines are fire and forget weapons, marines would hardly be vulnerable when using them. Mines are limited to being placed where marines can place them.
5 Pres sounds like a good price to me for what they should accomplish. I also like Iron Horse's proposals, except that grenades could take the place of mines. I think the amount of time you should be vulnerable when throwing grenades should be equivalent to about 3/4 the time it takes to reload the LMG. I also propose light damage, else we'd see a feed gate turn into a "Everyone throw your nades on 1...2...3..." and all the fades die.
Sorry I think we might just disagree on this one.
I dont see it being that risky for anyone but a lone marine (and lone marines are rare)....and if your in the vent you not exactly likely to try to run through a grenade to attack the marine.
As in NS1 personal grenades simply made it too easy for marines early game and removed the need to get GL's or JP's to counter the vents.
The fact that a skulk cant use the extractor to shield himself from the marine further hampers any ability to harrass.
The marine could safley lob a grenade that will kill the skulk...removing the need to position for LOS to actually shoot....at teh very least it will severly damage the skulk making finishing him off easy.
You say it wont be a grenade that does lots of damage...umm a cluster grenade is 4 grenades in 1...does not sound like it will do low amounts of damage....seriously who has a 4x grenade that does not do large amounts of damage?
This whole grenade concept is a very bad idea...as I said before...it was what resulted in me (and many friends) to stop playing NS1....I am already struggling to find much pleasure playing aliens anymore as it is, there is very little fun or enjoyment unless there are serious team balance issues (and that in itself is not fun).
I can happily play marines and be enjoying myself, even when its clear aliens are winning.
On the flip side most alien victories I encounter are almost a surprise...you feel like your losing right up to the point you win (or marines conceded).
The enjoyment level of playing aliens was far greater around the time of release than it is now.
Changes like adding personal grenades to the marine inventory will do nothing to help the enjoyment of alien gameplay...instead just add another way to no doubt 1 shot aliens.
Regarding the RT, the grenade is a direct counter and it is great! Especially in NS2 where the RT are huge shield for the aliens (while it shouldn't help them). The marine throw his grenade, forcing the alien to go out and attack him/flee, if you stay behind the RT you die. Easy. It's exactly what NS2 is missing and it will solve a lot of problems.
Btw by the time the marine have to throw his grenade and take his weapon you were usually near him and ready to bite. Everything as to be balanced, that's all.
I have never seen anybody complaining about grenades in NS1 after they were balanced. I really don't see how you can complain about them, it's a great addition and is needed in a lot of situation, while being very easily countered by the aliens.
Whips already counter GLs to a ridiculous degree. Where is the Marine counter for bile bomb?? Oh there isn't one, but nobody seems to mind. I'd be perfectly happy if marines got hand grenades that would not be countered by anything, even whips.