Balance mod...is this actually being implemented into the vanilla ns2?
jewbear
Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2013-02-09 Member: 182943Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
Hello all...
So the BT hype has gotten exponentially greater in the past month. This dev's of this game have spent years balancing...and we are extremely close now, yet we want to throw all of this away? I have spent so much time (and not even as long as most players who were in the beta for example) learning the movement physics of this game. Being forced to relearn every aspect of the game, including everything down to movement is extremely frustrating and turns me away from even trying to continue going forward with this game. What would be the point to play now if these kind of changes are going to be put into effect?
I would not be against changes being implemented if they were not so sweeping (having drifters build structures, huge movement changes, and an overall change to the game). This game is not natural selection 1. Balance within an asymmetrical game is almost impossible. You can balance off of competitive games, or you can balance off of public games. You will never achieve a completely 50-50 win rate within pub play and competitive play.
Now if these changes are going to go into the game, you can guarantee that a majority of the competitive players will leave due to the depth of changes being put into the game. I will give the balance mod a fair chance if/when it gets implemented, but I do not want to relearn the entire game.
I know people don't want to hear this, and I know that a lot of people think the same way as me, but they do not want to express it. I am not very good at conveying my thought (be it through talk or text) but I just want to start a discussion on this.
I know the responses I will get...that I haven't been around the balance mod as much as I should...that i'm not giving it a fair chance...or that NS1 had changes as well and everything worked out fine. Once again this is not NS1. I do not need to put more hours into an entire new game that I have already learned previously. It puts me off. I know this will turn into a huge thread with tons of trolls who completely put this post off and call it stupid...but this needs to be said.
So the BT hype has gotten exponentially greater in the past month. This dev's of this game have spent years balancing...and we are extremely close now, yet we want to throw all of this away? I have spent so much time (and not even as long as most players who were in the beta for example) learning the movement physics of this game. Being forced to relearn every aspect of the game, including everything down to movement is extremely frustrating and turns me away from even trying to continue going forward with this game. What would be the point to play now if these kind of changes are going to be put into effect?
I would not be against changes being implemented if they were not so sweeping (having drifters build structures, huge movement changes, and an overall change to the game). This game is not natural selection 1. Balance within an asymmetrical game is almost impossible. You can balance off of competitive games, or you can balance off of public games. You will never achieve a completely 50-50 win rate within pub play and competitive play.
Now if these changes are going to go into the game, you can guarantee that a majority of the competitive players will leave due to the depth of changes being put into the game. I will give the balance mod a fair chance if/when it gets implemented, but I do not want to relearn the entire game.
I know people don't want to hear this, and I know that a lot of people think the same way as me, but they do not want to express it. I am not very good at conveying my thought (be it through talk or text) but I just want to start a discussion on this.
I know the responses I will get...that I haven't been around the balance mod as much as I should...that i'm not giving it a fair chance...or that NS1 had changes as well and everything worked out fine. Once again this is not NS1. I do not need to put more hours into an entire new game that I have already learned previously. It puts me off. I know this will turn into a huge thread with tons of trolls who completely put this post off and call it stupid...but this needs to be said.
Comments
I will not be surprised if when it comes to the next major patch day, that only a small number of highly refined and crucial changes actually make it into the Official NS2 version along with some minor changes for underused items and the games overall accessibility. I would think, and I am hoping, that they would try and use as few steps as possible in order to improve the game rather than try and implement a totally new system that could just have as many issues as the current version.
On a side note: I think that the BT mod should scale back the number of changes loaded onto the mod at any one time, and perform more precise gameplay experiments on particular aspects or changes, while asking the community for more focused feedback in separate UWE created forum threads for individual game elements or topics.
There are reasons for this, but those dead horses has been beaten since the beta and don't deserve to be brought up here.
At this point, with such low player counts and players who will never return no matter what you do, I think UWE has decided to just continue to make NS2 a living advertisement to sell/license Spark (ex. Modjam, Biodome map). I'm not sure the actual gameplay (which was such a strength for NS1) will ever get good enough to attract a legit competitive scene.
I know a lot of people leaving due to the balance mod being implemented...not just because the game is dying.
You are already at a point where many people will quit if the mod gets implemented, or if it doesn't. That's a really poor place to argue from, and your effort would be better spent dissecting the mod and the pro's and con's of the changes
My point being is that we are playing NS2, and the past should be left as the past. Do not look for some sort of nostalgia in past game play mechanics. I hope this doesn't wither you away too much.
the balance mod is worked on and constantly tweaked in the way that NS2 should have been (premature release of NS2 is another issue entirely). daily updates and immediate feedback from organized games, and heavy post-game discussion.
the beta had radically shifting balance from week to week and it had only slightly smaller activity than the current live build. in fact, most of the beta patches were around the same scale of changes as the balance mod. the largest scale change is probably the movement, which isn't even that crazy. I think it's sad that players are shifting the blame to the balance mod, when the reality is much simpler: the engine is molasses and not fun to play in a competitive environment, and that is why many players have stopped playing.
I think you may be taking my statement differently than I intended. I did not mean that the BT fade felt exactly like the NS1 fade, I meant that I had to actually consider what I was doing instead of just shadowstep+attack since shadowstep lets you get out of almost anything on the live build.
EDIT: Fixed the quote.
you keep saying this, but yesterday, my team managed to scrim all evening without any problem. there were several other games going on at the same time aswell. so i think you are seriously misrepresenting the state of the community. on the other hand, i dont see much BT activity outside of pubs filled with the very same vets every day.
@gliss&tane - i dont think anyone argues with general improvement, but rather with the sweeping approach, and with the nature and inspiration for said 'improvements'. some people simply cannot see anything different from NS1 as having any merit. NS2 is different and thats crime enough in their eyes. you also live in a bubble and have no consideration for the needs of players outside of your own tiny community. and like you say, the issue is not so much the content of the game, but the way it runs - which only serves to make the intentions of this mod all the more dubious and seem like a way for a very small, but dedicated and influential group of players to finally get their way when it comes to the gameplay. as for the fade, i personally dont see what you guys are talking about giving the fade more options or making it more creative - nothing fundamental has really changed with how you play fade and if anything, the lack of double jump and inability to chain SS could be argued as removing options just as 'telestep' might give you a new way to engage. its make it like ns1 first, justify later.
consider this - a small community of teamplay oriented gamers - Tactical Gamers, ran BT mods and were pretty much the only public community I saw give the mod a proper chance etc. they are running a poll on their website: http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural-selection-general-discussion/193350-keep-balance-test-mod.html about whether to keep it or not. clearly from the comments there are some things they like, but the results speak for themselves really.
1st of all an asymmetrical game is impossible to balance
2nd of all a completely 50-50 win rate within pub play and competitive play asymmetrical gameplay or not doesn't mean the game is balanced.
3rd of all dead game.
Are you people 80 years old or just too lazy? Or are you simply afraid of change?
Pathetic...
You have the opportunity to help shape the future of NS2 with feedback directly to the developer. Grab it with both hands!
While I don't like everything in BT Mod, it will at least keep NS2 moving and fresh. Most of your skills learned in Vanilla will transfer over to BT Mod. It won't take long to adapt if you're a 'competitive' player.
Will the btmod patch save ns2? Probably not, but it's worth a shot.
Laziness has nothing to do with it. This for example is why cod is not a serious comp game...every year a whole new game comes out with a whole new set of things to learn. People who are looking to succeed at a game don't want change, they expect a consistent game in which they can master every aspect of.
I agree with you here, the more I play it and get used to it, it starts growing on me, but so many people don't want to give it that chance due to other issues in the game that they believe need to be addressed first...
I think the point of this thread was actually to try to address that. Balance isn't what is killing this game, and more light needs to be shed on that.
How long have we had rumors of potential performance patches with our fingers crossed? What if this entire time we were all together working on sewleks performance mod? (don't get me wrong I have a lot of gratitude for the massive amount of hours Andi puts in)
If your issue is performance, why make a topic titled as this was, with the tone and direction of the initial post?...
Getting a scrim in the NA scene is completely different now then it was 2-3 months ago... There's no way you can argue this.
As for your opinions on tane and gliss I think you are mistaken. It's these people who have a huge experience base in NS and we should be listening to their ideas mostly. They have been through it all and know what works and what doesn't. There is no way though that the game is going to tailor to only competitive player needs, I think that is just pub player paranoia
anyway, i think alot of the people here are missing the wider point - outside of the competitive community (where the feelings are very mixed at best) there is no real support for many of the changes.
@obraxis "You have the opportunity to help shape the future of NS2 with feedback directly to the developer. Grab it with both hands!"
thats like letting the rest pick the colour of the curtains while the ns1 community designs the floorplan.