Lerks
Khyron
Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
Skilled lerks dominate early game more than any other skill based play, and by a huge margin. In other words, the skill ceiling for lerking is way out of proportion to everything else in the game.
Lerks have too much combat flexibility with the highest maneuverability, a ranged attack, a strong melee attack and a poison DOT.
The hitbox for lerks is tiny.
The lerk can't be "countered" with a shotgun because it will simply chose not to engage. It has an unparalleled capability to chose favorable engagements.
This has been a problem for many, many builds.
And yet, I remember clearly during the beta how the Lerk struggled to find a role as it also struggled to become a viable way to spend pRes.
I'd like to know if anybody has ideas for improving the situation.
Lerks have too much combat flexibility with the highest maneuverability, a ranged attack, a strong melee attack and a poison DOT.
The hitbox for lerks is tiny.
The lerk can't be "countered" with a shotgun because it will simply chose not to engage. It has an unparalleled capability to chose favorable engagements.
This has been a problem for many, many builds.
And yet, I remember clearly during the beta how the Lerk struggled to find a role as it also struggled to become a viable way to spend pRes.
I'd like to know if anybody has ideas for improving the situation.
Comments
I think the 'skill based' part is the main reason for this.. I assume you're talking about public games Neoken where this might be the case .. most competitive games I've seen have, in alot of the time, 2 lerks out in the field early game.
If you've ever seen a skilled lerk in a public game, they dominiate.. but I think this is as it should be ... SKILL is the difference .. and it should be
I think lerk is good as it is
Of course we choose favourable engagements, I'm not going to fly in to 5 marines (except by mistake... so embarrassing). I'm going to pick you off one by one while you all hesitate at the door instead of rushing me and forcing me out of the room while skulks move up behind you and finish you off.
If you catch a Lerk, close quarters with a shotty, we drop like a rock like everything else.
Lerks are also good with bacon. But, only if you can catch them.
Because while they dominate the early game, they quickly become next to useless once fades COULD be out, and if you don't dominate to the point of a win early when you've all gone lerk, gg for you.
Lerks are good for early/mid game that is it. Once fades are out the lerk shifts to a more harrassing role rather than out right killer. Once spores are up, its the lerks job to spore the battlegrounds while the rest clean up.
You are right, skilled lerks on pub games own. If you want to kill a lerk, get a shotgun and gank the lerk you know is coming after your buddies, works for me nearly everytime.
I know, that's why I said it, that's why lerks aren't OP. You can't afford to have more than two without risking your mid-late game.
Most pub commanders won't provide the lerk egg, though, thinking that they lose map control because of not being able to expand quickly. This is in par with the fact that most public players don't realise that map control is gained by winning engagements, not spreading cysts or building power nodes. That early lerk will win you those engagements.
That being said, this isn't a problem with the lerk. This is a problem of skill difference. That same player would dominate the early game skulks as a marine too, but we're not going to nerf marines because of that, now are we?
What he is effectively saying (and here is the nuance) is that the skill ceiling of the lerk is such that a great lerk player will destroy the marine team utterly (provided everything else on both marine and alien is equal - for good measure) whereas a great fade will not quite do as much damage because the fade has a lower skill ceiling (it does - if you disagree you are wrong).
If your lerk is decimating the marine team early on you can acquire and hold onto more harvesters. This might mean you lose out on fade in the later game, but it might also mean that you get 4 fades at 8 minutes instead of 12, which is surely a better tradeoff when one considers the alien commander also has at their disposal the requisite res to purchase a fade egg when the time comes...
As for the other stuff, I've played a hella lot of NS2 and will probably continue to for years to come. Just haven't played as much as usual in the past couple of months,
@Balmark - I understand, it's just that an equivalently skilled marine really is no match for a lerk.
Rantology makes a good point, as usual.
I also agree with those who said a Lerk becomes less useful in the late game, relative to a Fade. Often the game is decided by that time.
I still think there's an underlying problem with Lerks - it becomes more obvious in pubs where the range of skills on both teams is more exaggerated. It's not so much of an issue in the really competitive games, I think.
Hihi
A good marine can deal with a lerk easily, assuming the commander is getting upgrades and such. If the lerk was really so OP we would see competitive teams all go lerk as soon as they have the res, but you almost never see more than 2 at any point
Lerk's are a risky play. I consider myself a decent lerk as I can usually survive from the moment I get my lerk egg at 30pres until my fade egg at 50 res or or res count is really good, onos. But sometimes in games, I'll suddenly play really bad, get stuck or pick a terrible engagement. I've died at times just turning a corner and seeing 5+ marines gun me down before I can react.
Aren't lerks by design supposed to dominate marines early game until they get +weapon upgrades and shotguns out? They are there to gain ground and map control for a period of time until fades come out.
The current public meta game seems to be built around the philosophy of a pendulum. Considering equally skilled teams:
1. Marines work better at the start of the game vs skulks and therefore gain ground and map control
2. Aliens get up carapace or celerity and start pushing marines back
3. Mines come out and possibly +weapon upgrades, phase gates also likely to be up
4. Lerks start coming out and aliens start securing RT positions with gorges or defensive positioning and force marines back while skulks harass
5. Marines get shotguns up and +weapon and armor upgrades, skulks become significantly less powerful but adopt a more harassment style of play
6. Marines start making pushes into alien territory with commander support, they start to take forward and central RTs down and possibly setup forward bases
7. Fades enter the field and once again, start forcing marines back and re-securing RT positions and begin pushing 3rd tech point locations.
8. Bigger upgrades and possibly now jetpacks are out, fades become less potent and coordinated marine pushes become dangerous, ARCs may also be a threat
9. Onos are still a few minutes away, Fades are now more likely to be killed and jetpacks become a problem
10. Exosuits are out and really start to decimate aliens and push forward
11. Multiple Onos are likely to be out, marines are significantly more cautious, aliens start pushing away exo pushes through coordinated play or they counter to a marine base to destroy or force a beacon. Aliens counterattack the exos and destroy them. Aliens reclaim ground and may take a 3rd base.
12. Game is not determined by the current res count and upgrade count for both teams and how much economy and whether or not a marine 3rd tech point is retained.
Without these lerks dominating in the early-mid game, marines would completely roll over aliens.
If you were to consider a lerk nerf, I can't think of a nerf that could have severe repercussions to their viability later in the game and how dangerous it would be in the early game. Remember, Lerks are 30 res and the same cost as a shotgun+jetpacker which imo, are far more dangerous than a lerk simply due to how late jetpacks are. Lerks are designed to be strong and aggressive early game whereas in the late game, they are simply support. They allow aliens the transition from basic skulk to fade to onos in a safer way.
Name me another asymmetrical FPS with resource management as its fundamental concept that has a competitive scene. This is one of the most unique FPS games out there, comparing it to other games that have no asymmetry is completely fruitless. You wouldn't use the gameplay foundations of Quake Live as you would for NS2, your comparison makes no sense.
Despite that, this isn't the idea that you simply win because of your lifeform or class, it's much more deep than that, there is no black and white. A better team/player will still end up winning eventually and capitalize as much as possible even if they are at a statistical disadvantage.
Games like StarCraft do follow the mindset of better player wins but they also have this progression of advantage/disadvantage and so does NS2, why does Archaea dominate the scene right now? They are just better. StarCraft to a lesser extent dictates that you simply are at a disadvantage because of the current state of the game that includes you and your opponent. Based on your race, you might be less capable in one part of the game compared to another race. Protoss on 2base for example can't expand freely or put on big pressure on the opponent without going all-in or being extremely greedy, Zerg has complete map control but it's reclaimed later in the game. It's a similar concept to lerking, you're setting up for the late game.
Fact is on top of the 244-245 whatever patch had marine upgrade nerfs, lerks became relevant for even longer because marines were no longer rocking 1-1 by 7-8 mins in a good game and 2-2 by 9-12 mins in an average game. You can't artificially extend the potential early/mid game tech for marines out by 3-5 minutes and come on the forums and pretend the 30 pres lifeform up by 2:30-3:30 is somehow shit at 9 mins.
Once again another thread has been Xao'd. He is right, 100%. Now the ups cost so much a GOOD lerk can smash marines and effectively hold a whole section of the map just using spikes.
EDIT: There are two types of Lerks on the US servers. The straight flying variety and the near extinct ground lerk.