on the other hand, warsow's movement system is also arguably its biggest flaw - in that the rest of the game wasn't really designed with the implications of its movement system in mind. You have super speedy, very airborne movement, combined with small, tight maps and unsuitable weapon behaviour. while you'd think that warsow matches might be awe inspiring and cool to watch, its actually pretty ugly imo.
i think it's actually a perfect example of why its very difficult to introduce new and radical ideas into an existing framework and should serve as a moderating, rather than galvanizing influence.
The concept of BT mod is flawed, by radically changing more then one aspect (movement, spawning, damage, structure operation) you loss the ability to distinguish what change had a positive or negative effect.
This newly achieved balance is only then applicable if 100% of changes are made. So unless BT is definitively and unarguably better then vanilla it should not be implimented.
Most people left ns2 because it was confusing/challenging changing the game play won't bring them back all it will do is make the little they did understand irrelevant thus less appealing.
Now I do see a place for a mod like this, with a different name and purpose... BT -> PG. "play ground mod". Where ideas are thrown around and relevance is debated not balance.
Ex of PG-
Say for the rinse people are asking about hand Granada, laser mines, rocket launchers, or whatever... Alow the com to upgrade one new idea per round such that after a round with hand grenades both team will have a sence of whether handgranades have any viable place in the game... The idea is to not overwhelm them with a new game but to play around with new ideas...
I don´t really understand what there is to learn in vanilla NS2. Mostly it is just generall FPS skills and positioning that you could already learn from NS1. When in comes to skulk or fade movement, I mastered those in under 20 hours. There already was two beta tournaments when I started to play NS2 but that didn´t stop me playing in best team of the game with only few hours under my belt. That wouldn´t have been possible if there actually were steep learning curve.
I completely think that BT mod is better than vanilla. It does have its flaws and things to be fixed but that's what all the testing and feedback is fore, as well as the BT Cup which is happening this weekend. The skulk movement was dropped down to about 11 for skulks, which from what i see allows for marines to keep their RTs a bit longer (which has been an issue, though i still feel as though marine RTs should have more health/armor).
The concept of BT mod is flawed, by radically changing more then one aspect (movement, spawning, damage, structure operation) you loss the ability to distinguish what change had a positive or negative effect.
This newly achieved balance is only then applicable if 100% of changes are made. So unless BT is definitively and unarguably better then vanilla it should not be implimented.
Most people left ns2 because it was confusing/challenging changing the game play won't bring them back all it will do is make the little they did understand irrelevant thus less appealing.
Now I do see a place for a mod like this, with a different name and purpose... BT -> PG. "play ground mod". Where ideas are thrown around and relevance is debated not balance.
Ex of PG-
Say for the rinse people are asking about hand Granada, laser mines, rocket launchers, or whatever... Alow the com to upgrade one new idea per round such that after a round with hand grenades both team will have a sence of whether handgranades have any viable place in the game... The idea is to not overwhelm them with a new game but to play around with new ideas...
He didn't "radically change more than one aspect".
The BT mod has been around for over 3 months and Sewlek released 646 Updates in those 98 days. The way he is testing is the perfect way of doing it.
it isn't that hard to judge the tech-tree changes without looking at the movement
just pretend it's balanced and somewhat accessible (or assume it will be after cost/HP/movement/damage numbers are magically tweaked)
then look at whether the game is deeper or not...
it's not like NS2 is so awesome that they have to worry about breaking some awesome metagame...
on the other hand, warsow's movement system is also arguably its biggest flaw - in that the rest of the game wasn't really designed with the implications of its movement system in mind. You have super speedy, very airborne movement, combined with small, tight maps and unsuitable weapon behaviour. while you'd think that warsow matches might be awe inspiring and cool to watch, its actually pretty ugly imo.
you're talking about concepts which are external to movement, though. duel was awful in Warsow for the reasons you listed above (maps, ammo system), but this has nothing to do with the defrag maps, race maps, or clan arena game mode. anecdotally I recall clan arena having a huge scene over duel, and I personally found it much more enjoyable than almost any other game's CA / duel system due in no small part to its fluid movement
for those who are confused that the changes are happening "all at once" - they're not. each change has pretty much been played with individually as it became the balance mod, and I have no doubt that the changes will also phase into the live build in a similar manner. this is all completely baseless
i think clan arena is actually just as broken as any of the other modes - whilst it may be fun to rocketwj around etc, the combat was just as broken. and its largely for the same reasons imo.
anyway, the gist of my point was that designing a game is a bottom up process, parachuting new ideas (however good they are on their own) into existing frameworks wont necessarily result in a good product. i think there are loads of examples of this in BT. If NS2 had come out looking like BT does now, i think i would have laughed tbh, simply because its so shoddily put together. i think the goal here should be to produce a product with a similar level of polish and visibly consistent top to bottom design that you would expect from a game at release, something that is clearly not the case with BT imo.
anyway, the gist of my point was that designing a game is a bottom up process, parachuting new ideas (however good they are on their own) into existing frameworks wont necessarily result in a good product. i think there are loads of examples of this in BT. If NS2 had come out looking like BT does now, i think i would have laughed tbh, simply because its so shoddily put together. i think the goal here should be to produce a product with a similar level of polish and visibly consistent top to bottom design that you would expect from a game at release, something that is clearly not the case with BT imo.
I'm not sure what you consider 'bottom up' game design, but my experience is that all games go through serious revisions of base mechanics. The majority of the time this occurs before the release and is hidden from the public. Typically, I'd be opposed to serious mechanic revisions after the release of a game, but NS2 is in need of a jolt to get the playercount back up. Pair the balance mod + one or two new maps with a free weekend/sale and call it NS2 2.0 and it should work.
That's my opinion as well. With the state of the playerbase (I think it peaked at 431 last night), the community needs some fresh eyes. Release Luajit, see how many come back in 1-2 weeks. Release BT and rebrand as NS2 2.0 with a free weekend/sale. Should be enough to get us back on track.
alot more work has to be done before balance test plays properly imo. theres a serious lack of polish, and integration into vanilla will be more than just a cut and paste job. some of the new effects, sounds and animations look pretty low quality, so it would be worth touching them up. thats without mentioning new tutorials and other related content.
rushing it, and trying to release it as part of a steam summer sale sort of thing might produce a limited temporary bounce, but with the combination of competition from other games on sale, a plainly mediocre product and the natural summer lull this bounce might be short lived and do more harm than good. perhaps waiting till autumn and using that time to do things right and release a really high quality update would give a bigger and more sustained boost?
Just tried the BT for the first time...first impressions are that I hate it because of the movement system which I have not taken any time to practice makes me play alot worse.
I can see how the changes even the movement might make for a better game overall. That said it will have to be brought in very slowly. Without the draw and excitement of an all new game, can people be bothered to relearn how to move, and will new players bother to stay and learn. I doubt it as its even less intuitive then the current movement system and freeweekenders esp are quick quitters. It might create a mass exodus of casual players who like the game but are not so invested rather then revitalizing it.
I would suggest that the competitive scene is already migrating over to BT and as the ones with the stomach to relearn an entire movement system maybe a split community is actually for the best for a while.
The non-movement based changes can be slowly phased in and somewhere far down the road when the entire community is fairly experienced they can mess with the movement changes in vanilla.
Haven't had much opportunity to learn the new movement system but I know I currently get massacred as marine by skulks zipping at me. I need to make every shot count if I am to get them before they are on me. I'm not the best player in the world but I don't suck THAT much.
Maybe make the bhop speed system come in play as soon as skulks get celerity or something.
Haven't had much opportunity to learn the new movement system but I know I currently get massacred as marine by skulks zipping at me. I need to make every shot count if I am to get them before they are on me. I'm not the best player in the world but I don't suck THAT much.
Maybe make the bhop speed system come in play as soon as skulks get celerity or something.
It's not the hopping that makes skulks go so fast, it's the walljumping. But yeah, it's a bit too fast still.
Just tried the BT for the first time...first impressions are that I hate it because of the movement system which I have not taken any time to practice makes me play alot worse.
I can see how the changes even the movement might make for a better game overall. That said it will have to be brought in very slowly. Without the draw and excitement of an all new game, can people be bothered to relearn how to move, and will new players bother to stay and learn. I doubt it as its even less intuitive then the current movement system and freeweekenders esp are quick quitters. It might create a mass exodus of casual players who like the game but are not so invested rather then revitalizing it.
I would suggest that the competitive scene is already migrating over to BT and as the ones with the stomach to relearn an entire movement system maybe a split community is actually for the best for a while.
The non-movement based changes can be slowly phased in and somewhere far down the road when the entire community is fairly experienced they can mess with the movement changes in vanilla.
the competitive scene is only playing BT right now because it will supposedly replace vanilla in the near future. there is otherwise alot of skepticism and frustration about the mod, so i dont really think the entire comp scene would play it if it werent replacing vanilla. some would no doubt, but i suspect alot wouldnt aswell.
I wouldn't complain until there's a final product on the table, NS2 devs are dedicated to making this game as balanced and built properly, but of course things cannot be rushed as there's not a large amount of staff around making the game, it's still an indie dev team building this game, not a large 300 body DICE shitting out 3-5 games a year. The BT mod is receiving tons of community feedback and work allowing to push out updates constantly. Try it for yourself, and that doesn't mean for two matches before judging it and you will see why these changes are being made, there's still plenty of fine tuning to do.
We are playing BT because it is better than vanilla.
that may well be the case for you, i dont dispute that, but its certainly not the case that everyone feels like that. you can try and paint a picture of universal approval and support for BT, but its simply not the truth. there isnt really any widespread consensus about this mod, and implying otherwise is a misrepresentation imo.
the competitive scene is only playing BT right now because it will supposedly replace vanilla in the near future. there is otherwise alot of skepticism and frustration about the mod, so i dont really think the entire comp scene would play it if it werent replacing vanilla. some would no doubt, but i suspect alot wouldnt aswell.
The balance mod addresses a lot of issues both in competitive and in public play live..
Sure, it still needs tweaking and work but it's a hell of alot better than live. It's not stale, the game isn't over in 5 minutes and things just feel better and much more fun.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I just want to make this point about alien movement. If it weren't entire NON-SKILL based jumping, then it would be more valid to complain about re-learning a system. But as it is you can press jump anytime you want and you never miss a beat. This is great for public play in my opinion, and I'm not sure how it will effect competitive play at lower levels, but I doubt it matters at the upper level.
I was always happy enough with a 3-jump script in NS1, so this almost seems silly easy
There is no skill in timing jumps, as you yourself even show by stating that you used a 3-jump script, which effectively removed any timing requirements.
Go try bunnyhopping around in NS1 with just spacebar and it bound to +jump.
There is no skill in timing jumps, as you yourself even show by stating that you used a 3-jump script, which effectively removed any timing requirements.
Go try bunnyhopping around in NS1 with just spacebar and it bound to +jump.
I wasn't clear I guess, but I mean that this removes the initial barrier for new players learning a bunnyhop. I could bunnyhop in ns1 without spacebar and +jump, but not effectively enough to get near good shots. Everyone used scripts because, without atleast mwheel jumps, (next to) no one was able to skulk effectively enough
So point being, people will learn this system much more easily and I'm all for that
Not sure why people are bothering to respond to lawnenforcer. He has his opinion for 30+ pages now and won't change it, how can you argue against that?
Also i'm curious why people feel they need to relearn the movement system? THere was never a movement system to learn in the first place... now you actually get to learn one for the first time /gosh at amount of people crying.
It's almost the same movement system that we had before the gorgeous update came out. the only difference is you can carry your walljump speed by hopping on the ground. I think that advertising it as a new bunny hop based movement system was a bad idea, and is causing a lot of confusion.
We've been urging people to refrain from calling it bunnyhopping, since there is a lot of negativity towards towards the word and most importantly, it IS NOT bunnyhopping. It is walljumping pure and simple.
Comments
i think it's actually a perfect example of why its very difficult to introduce new and radical ideas into an existing framework and should serve as a moderating, rather than galvanizing influence.
This newly achieved balance is only then applicable if 100% of changes are made. So unless BT is definitively and unarguably better then vanilla it should not be implimented.
Most people left ns2 because it was confusing/challenging changing the game play won't bring them back all it will do is make the little they did understand irrelevant thus less appealing.
Now I do see a place for a mod like this, with a different name and purpose... BT -> PG. "play ground mod". Where ideas are thrown around and relevance is debated not balance.
Ex of PG-
Say for the rinse people are asking about hand Granada, laser mines, rocket launchers, or whatever... Alow the com to upgrade one new idea per round such that after a round with hand grenades both team will have a sence of whether handgranades have any viable place in the game... The idea is to not overwhelm them with a new game but to play around with new ideas...
toot toot
He didn't "radically change more than one aspect".
The BT mod has been around for over 3 months and Sewlek released 646 Updates in those 98 days. The way he is testing is the perfect way of doing it.
just pretend it's balanced and somewhat accessible (or assume it will be after cost/HP/movement/damage numbers are magically tweaked)
then look at whether the game is deeper or not...
it's not like NS2 is so awesome that they have to worry about breaking some awesome metagame...
for those who are confused that the changes are happening "all at once" - they're not. each change has pretty much been played with individually as it became the balance mod, and I have no doubt that the changes will also phase into the live build in a similar manner. this is all completely baseless
anyway, the gist of my point was that designing a game is a bottom up process, parachuting new ideas (however good they are on their own) into existing frameworks wont necessarily result in a good product. i think there are loads of examples of this in BT. If NS2 had come out looking like BT does now, i think i would have laughed tbh, simply because its so shoddily put together. i think the goal here should be to produce a product with a similar level of polish and visibly consistent top to bottom design that you would expect from a game at release, something that is clearly not the case with BT imo.
rushing it, and trying to release it as part of a steam summer sale sort of thing might produce a limited temporary bounce, but with the combination of competition from other games on sale, a plainly mediocre product and the natural summer lull this bounce might be short lived and do more harm than good. perhaps waiting till autumn and using that time to do things right and release a really high quality update would give a bigger and more sustained boost?
I can see how the changes even the movement might make for a better game overall. That said it will have to be brought in very slowly. Without the draw and excitement of an all new game, can people be bothered to relearn how to move, and will new players bother to stay and learn. I doubt it as its even less intuitive then the current movement system and freeweekenders esp are quick quitters. It might create a mass exodus of casual players who like the game but are not so invested rather then revitalizing it.
I would suggest that the competitive scene is already migrating over to BT and as the ones with the stomach to relearn an entire movement system maybe a split community is actually for the best for a while.
The non-movement based changes can be slowly phased in and somewhere far down the road when the entire community is fairly experienced they can mess with the movement changes in vanilla.
Maybe make the bhop speed system come in play as soon as skulks get celerity or something.
It's not the hopping that makes skulks go so fast, it's the walljumping. But yeah, it's a bit too fast still.
the competitive scene is only playing BT right now because it will supposedly replace vanilla in the near future. there is otherwise alot of skepticism and frustration about the mod, so i dont really think the entire comp scene would play it if it werent replacing vanilla. some would no doubt, but i suspect alot wouldnt aswell.
that may well be the case for you, i dont dispute that, but its certainly not the case that everyone feels like that. you can try and paint a picture of universal approval and support for BT, but its simply not the truth. there isnt really any widespread consensus about this mod, and implying otherwise is a misrepresentation imo.
So.. the Bt mod has a bluray player?! I don't get it.
The number is bigger. 3 > 2.
NS2 has 2 letters, NS2 BT has 4 letters. Both have a number. 4-2 = 2 letters + 1 number = 3.
Half-Life 3 confirmed.
Ugh, I think I might go find a rope and a tree, I must end my life after doing this crappy joke.
The balance mod addresses a lot of issues both in competitive and in public play live..
Sure, it still needs tweaking and work but it's a hell of alot better than live. It's not stale, the game isn't over in 5 minutes and things just feel better and much more fun.
I was always happy enough with a 3-jump script in NS1, so this almost seems silly easy
Go try bunnyhopping around in NS1 with just spacebar and it bound to +jump.
I wasn't clear I guess, but I mean that this removes the initial barrier for new players learning a bunnyhop. I could bunnyhop in ns1 without spacebar and +jump, but not effectively enough to get near good shots. Everyone used scripts because, without atleast mwheel jumps, (next to) no one was able to skulk effectively enough
So point being, people will learn this system much more easily and I'm all for that
Also i'm curious why people feel they need to relearn the movement system? THere was never a movement system to learn in the first place... now you actually get to learn one for the first time /gosh at amount of people crying.