um, Scent of fear is great as a fade.. you know which marine to target, and how many more hits it takes to kill them (go in for the slash kill, or spray from afar). But it either sacrifices a movement chamber for those turbo-cannon super duper OMG I spray-spammed you to death Fades or it's endgame and doesn't really matter (only speeding up the endgame).
<!--QuoteBegin--Chopper Dave+Jan 4 2003, 01:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chopper Dave @ Jan 4 2003, 01:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just want you all to know that I love NS, so please hold off on the "if you don't like the game, make one yourself" comments. Kthx.
I've gotten kinda worried about NS as of late. This "First Person Strategy" is starting to lose what makes it special - its strategy.
In most strategy games, commanders have a wide variety of options as to how they can go about winning against a foe. They can use their funds to rush when the game is just starting up, catching the opponent with their pants down. They can use their funds to create a variety of defenses and turtle up in their base, waiting for their opponents to make an offensive and then going for the kill with a counter-offensive. They can beat the enemy by teching up and using stronger units. They can secure all resources on the map, generating a gargantuan cash flow but spreading the commander's forces a little thin. All these options are what make strategy fun.
But NS doesn't really allow such diversification anymore, not so much in clan games as in public games. You have to follow a certain build order on both sides, and if you don't, your team castagates you and usually, you lose.
For example, let's take a look at marines. In every SINGLE game in the past month, the only times I've seen anyone win is when they follow a specific build order: infantry portal, infantry portal, ammo dispenser, radar, phase gate, phase gate, phase gate. Marine victory basically operates on expansion, and nothing but expansion. A commander can't build a turret factory before he builds a phase gate anymore without getting kicked. He can't try to use his early funds to try to grab and control key resource nodes. Hell, he can't even use them to try to get an early technology advantage and win that way. It's ALWAYS hive, resource node, resource node, resource node, tech, siege win. It's mind-numbingly boring.
And the aliens - how repititious they have gotten. Resource node, resource node, resource node, defense tower, defense tower, hive. Sound familiar? That's because EVERY SINGLE DAMNED GAME follows that exact order. Well, unless the marines get an early hold on both hives, which just leads to a boring game. If you are a gorge and you try to build anything but a defense tower in the early game, not only do you get castagated by your entire team but you lose. If you try to build anything but a movement tower upon getting the second hive, not only does the team hate you, but generally, you lose. This is LAAAAAME. Why is the game designed so sensory = death? Why is it that the aliens are pretty much forced to abandon their original hive in order to fortify and secure an empty one as quickly as possible? Why can't there be some VARIATION in the strategy without the aliens losing.
/rant
I can't really say anything more then that. I'm sure at least some of you have thought the same thoughts at some point, though. Comments? Suggestions? I have a few suggestions of my own, but this rant is already too long, so I'll post 'em later.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can see your are unfamilar with the RTS genre. Chooper what you basically say is that you have some kind of complaint against build orders. Well the early game is crucial and "build order" has become standard RTS terminology. Most RTS games will follow an efficient order to achieve a certain end for mostly the early game due to the lack of options since of course at the beginning of any RTS game all start with the all the basic stuff. It is natural that if you want to use a phase gate early you would want a 2 IP, 1 Armory, 1 Obs build. Of course you won't see much organized building later as you have to respond to certain conditions in the game later. So I disagree. The only thing I agree with you is that the lack of diverse startegy mostly due to the fact that if marines rush they lose tech, but if they don't aliens gain tech. Flayra and co has to find a way to balance things out so that both sides may make use with all their toys on the battlefield. What I'm basically saying is that IS no mid-game. There is an early-game and late-game i.e. in NS the late-game means one or the others demise.
<!--QuoteBegin--Immacolata+Jan 4 2003, 03:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Jan 4 2003, 03:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jan 4 2003, 08:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jan 4 2003, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as general strategy stagnation, I agree to an extent. There are clear strategies that are superior to others at the moment, and all I can say is be patient and give it time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I hope the ressource model is on your mind as well for marines. Apart from the brutal 2-hive phase gate rush, which doesn't work always on pub servers at least, I find the most stagnating of problems is that a 6-8 man marine team is struggling hard to earn enough ressources to counter 2-hive aliens (fades and umbra lerks) efficiently - they need upgrades or better weapons, and they cannot afford due to the way res is coming in.
Cannot entirely rule out that marines just cant play the res game well due to skill lack, but having tried it many times I do feel there's somewhat of a tippe scale in favour of aliens when it comes to controlling res in medium and small scale games. That is why comms have learned to work hard towards hive lockdowns instead of competing for ressources on the map. Where I play, I see rarely servers above 16, so I have no experience with gargantuan 32 player battles <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The resource model should be more static and not depend too much on the number of players or make costs increase as well with the number of players, but I'm in more in favor of the former.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
If it was static imagine small games as compared to large games. Who do you design it for? if you design it for large games then you get insane resources in small games and it goes so fast its hard to keep up. Or you design it for small games. In those cases its so slow that in large 20+ servers its so slow the games last forever. The fact its scalable allows for different sized servers. Just be happy with it. if you didnt have it you would fish about it anyway.
Comments
I was here before you came, and will be after you leave legion.
Kinda weird, you were so pumped for the game now...meh
I've gotten kinda worried about NS as of late. This "First Person Strategy" is starting to lose what makes it special - its strategy.
In most strategy games, commanders have a wide variety of options as to how they can go about winning against a foe. They can use their funds to rush when the game is just starting up, catching the opponent with their pants down. They can use their funds to create a variety of defenses and turtle up in their base, waiting for their opponents to make an offensive and then going for the kill with a counter-offensive. They can beat the enemy by teching up and using stronger units. They can secure all resources on the map, generating a gargantuan cash flow but spreading the commander's forces a little thin. All these options are what make strategy fun.
But NS doesn't really allow such diversification anymore, not so much in clan games as in public games. You have to follow a certain build order on both sides, and if you don't, your team castagates you and usually, you lose.
For example, let's take a look at marines. In every SINGLE game in the past month, the only times I've seen anyone win is when they follow a specific build order: infantry portal, infantry portal, ammo dispenser, radar, phase gate, phase gate, phase gate. Marine victory basically operates on expansion, and nothing but expansion. A commander can't build a turret factory before he builds a phase gate anymore without getting kicked. He can't try to use his early funds to try to grab and control key resource nodes. Hell, he can't even use them to try to get an early technology advantage and win that way. It's ALWAYS hive, resource node, resource node, resource node, tech, siege win. It's mind-numbingly boring.
And the aliens - how repititious they have gotten. Resource node, resource node, resource node, defense tower, defense tower, hive. Sound familiar? That's because EVERY SINGLE DAMNED GAME follows that exact order. Well, unless the marines get an early hold on both hives, which just leads to a boring game. If you are a gorge and you try to build anything but a defense tower in the early game, not only do you get castagated by your entire team but you lose. If you try to build anything but a movement tower upon getting the second hive, not only does the team hate you, but generally, you lose. This is LAAAAAME. Why is the game designed so sensory = death? Why is it that the aliens are pretty much forced to abandon their original hive in order to fortify and secure an empty one as quickly as possible? Why can't there be some VARIATION in the strategy without the aliens losing.
/rant
I can't really say anything more then that. I'm sure at least some of you have thought the same thoughts at some point, though. Comments? Suggestions? I have a few suggestions of my own, but this rant is already too long, so I'll post 'em later.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see your are unfamilar with the RTS genre. Chooper what you basically say is that you have some kind of complaint against build orders. Well the early game is crucial and "build order" has become standard RTS terminology. Most RTS games will follow an efficient order to achieve a certain end for mostly the early game due to the lack of options since of course at the beginning of any RTS game all start with the all the basic stuff. It is natural that if you want to use a phase gate early you would want a 2 IP, 1 Armory, 1 Obs build. Of course you won't see much organized building later as you have to respond to certain conditions in the game later. So I disagree. The only thing I agree with you is that the lack of diverse startegy mostly due to the fact that if marines rush they lose tech, but if they don't aliens gain tech. Flayra and co has to find a way to balance things out so that both sides may make use with all their toys on the battlefield. What I'm basically saying is that IS no mid-game. There is an early-game and late-game i.e. in NS the late-game means one or the others demise.
I hope the ressource model is on your mind as well for marines. Apart from the brutal 2-hive phase gate rush, which doesn't work always on pub servers at least, I find the most stagnating of problems is that a 6-8 man marine team is struggling hard to earn enough ressources to counter 2-hive aliens (fades and umbra lerks) efficiently - they need upgrades or better weapons, and they cannot afford due to the way res is coming in.
Cannot entirely rule out that marines just cant play the res game well due to skill lack, but having tried it many times I do feel there's somewhat of a tippe scale in favour of aliens when it comes to controlling res in medium and small scale games. That is why comms have learned to work hard towards hive lockdowns instead of competing for ressources on the map. Where I play, I see rarely servers above 16, so I have no experience with gargantuan 32 player battles <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The resource model should be more static and not depend too much on the number of players or make costs increase as well with the number of players, but I'm in more in favor of the former.