Not reporting (and using) expliots is a good way to to get yourself banned, just saying
I'm not a playtester, if I invest my time to find unintended movement benefits and other people don't why would I want to share this to simply have it removed. I've released two movement video's now for skulk, one had skulk movement nerfed within 24 hours and the other nearly completely removed walljump in the next patch.
Also who is to decide what is an exploit... What exactly will I be banned from?
BHOP was an exploit, taken & loved by old school gamers. I don't really see the difference between one unintended movement mechanic and another.
Please UWE, ban me from ns2 because you left a movement bug in the game and your playerbase discovered it. See how that goes...
Pretty stupid comment GISP
Sorry i dont think i made it clear, no UWE staff will not ban you for jumping around, and I as a admin on the UWE servers will not do it aswell.
However, most people, as you know, allso venture outside of the official servers, where UWE have no control of who is administrator and who is not.
And I as a admin on the official servers, see alot of banappeals and complaints from people being banned (on other servers) becouse of exploitations, or "clever use of game mechanics". And asked if i can lift the bans.
More so, then most others, becouse unlike other server admins, I have admin access to 100s of servers.
As for you posting speed tutorials, you may have seen that the Devs actualy take that as good feedback, and build/improve upon it.
And as a hole, its vary valueable for the devs that people like yourself take your time to test the gamecode/mechanics to its limits. (And as you do it, explain how and why)
And i think the Devs like, that people are mastering the move mechanics and are contributing whit tutorials, just as they like mappers map and modders modding. Its all beneficial to an healthy and active community.
+BHOP as a mechanic, have seen 100s of coding hours, from multible Devs, to be made posible. So dont worry about being banned from UWE servers, becouse you are faster then the average player.
As for the movement code, that is something that have been in the works and been tweaked for months, and is most likely not a direct result of your videos.
Anyways, im sorry for the confusion. But still heed my warning(this goes for all), clever usage of game mechanics might be seen as cheating on some servers. So my everlasting advice is to stick to few communities and servers, get to be a regular on 2-3 servers, where people know you. That way you minimize the risk of being banned. (And me getting ban apeals outside of UWE servers)
So after trying it out myself for about 20 minutes I can understand the basics of it and how it works...and I don't think that it is a bug/glitch for the sole fact that the movements make sense.
You are trying to spend the least amount of time on the wall in order to gain a speed boost while not capturing any friction from the wall...adds a more difficult mechanic to the already stale and easy que jumping
Well with a little practice tonight I was able to reach the second "growl" sound rather consistently with no cel or leap, I actually like it a lot. Adds a little depth into the skulk movement which is always good IMHO. It is a shame its not something one would "naturally" figure out without having any sort of prior experience with another game that did something similar. I feel most would simply need to be told how it works and it wouldn't come naturally.
The issue with this mechanic is that the majority of the extra speed comes from the mouse flick when jumping, to the point of you being able to accelerate extremely fast off of a single jump - i've seen 14+ speed on base skulk in b250 without celerity. I hope that the mouse flick speed will be fixed, but the other ones should remain IMO, as it still softcaps around 11 - 11.5 without celerity.
It's not some random flick into 14+ speed
It has precise angles and timing which to me clearly indicates it's a wanted mechanic. You can reach 14+ momentarily in like 1-2 places in maps and only in air just after qued walljumps via good route; not like you're flying off at leapspeed round the map.
No one is saying brick skulk needs to come back, im fine with 11-12 speed on base skulk without celerity. I think we all saw the problems in BT earlier when even base skulk could hit 14, it was not good. I know that it is all about angles but that does not mean its intended - I can assure you that it was not. And the speeds you can reach in a single jump is close to 14, I believe 13 being the highest I have seen in a single jump. There are other ways to abuse the same mechanic you are using in that video where you continuously accelerate beyond even 12.
Now do you want to make more assumptions that you have no clue about?
and learning new ways to control your character is a nice feature for the more hardcore gamer.
I see, so the method in which for players to learn new ways to control their character is by word of mouth and random corners of an internet gaming forum?
I'm all for leaving it in, (as long as it's capped to lower speeds than 20!!) given the varying feedback on it's complexity, but you need to make it either a) intuitive or b) communicated somehow.
I know most vote for A, so that it will be something that isn't found as often, and thus rewards the dedicated/hardcore.
Without meeting either criteria its just a hidden exploit that is out of reach from everyone else but the secret club that shares these things amongst one another.
Videos of those good players lately finding the limits of these mechanics have been incredibly helpful, feedback wise. I hope those users understand the importance of mechanics needing to meet those two criteria above though, and don't just walk away with "Well i won't be making videos anymore if they keep taking away our nice things".. i really do hope they understand the why.
Not everything needs to be intuitive to all players from the moment they start playing the game. To me this is the definition of shallow game play.
If I can understand every aspect of the game, at face value, then the game isn't deep.
Suggesting those layers means that it would in fact be intuitive to all players from the moment they start playing the game.
I think you meant "communicated", instead. To which i would agree, not everything needs to be communicated.... as long as it is intuitive.
p.s. yes powernode blocking was once deemed unintended, and efforts were made to enforce an area around it in which you could not build.. but it led to more bugs and it was eventually dropped.
The fact that you said that means that we can do better, why should we give up on skulk movement as if this is the best we can ever come up with ? And we cant even dare to question anymore otherwise we will revert to a previous even worse mechanic ? Ive seen these types of scare tactics used before by people desperate to win their arguments
Dont agree with me ? then you must want 6 minute onos back
Dont agree with me ? then you must want 30 second leap back
Dont agree with me ? then you must want lawnmower bite cone back
Usually if you have to resort to something this low then your argument isnt very strong.
Also unintuitive mechanics are bad because some people are really bad at fighting against their own intuition while others are much better at it.
I heard that skill based mechanics are also bad because some people are really bad at those while others are much better at them.
Let's just make marine running competitions instead of classic shooting and biting. You can just hold down the W key and run forward, and since everyone runs the same speed, everyone will cross the finish line at the same time! EVERYBODY WINS!
I heard that skill based mechanics are also bad because some people are really bad at those while others are much better at them.
Let's just make marine running competitions instead of classic shooting and biting. You can just hold down the W key and run forward, and since everyone runs the same speed, everyone will cross the finish line at the same time! EVERYBODY WINS!
i heard that if you are right handed, and you play using the mouse in your left hand, you become more skilled.
Lets just make competitions where everyone just plays with inverted controls, that way this game becomes retarded
I see, so the method in which for players to learn new ways to control their character is by word of mouth and random corners of an internet gaming forum?
Not a single aspect of the current skulk movement features, even the intended ones, are intuitive from the get-go. If they were, we wouldn't need tutorial videos which even you awesome on these forums.
Walking on walls makes you faster than walking on the ground.
Jumping constantly retains momentum instead of just, you know, running (the exact opposite of the marine movement by the way, how's that for contradictory?).
Strafing with A and D in retains momentum even when cornering and actually builds up speed.
You get speed boosts by hitting space bar when you're close to a wall instead of, you know, just pressing space bar when near the ground or, you know, just running.
None of these mechanics are intuitive or communicated to the player via anything else other than tutorials (which are community made), so why do we draw the line to this specific layer of the movement to call too unintuitive and known only by "word of mouth" and "random corners of an internet gaming forum"?
Feels a teeny bit like people are making a big deal out of this. It's only like 1,5 speed more than casual walljumping, innit? From 10 travel speed to 11,5 or so?
And still, a skulk coming straight atcha is usually a dead skulk. AND still, you gotta hit those bites.
I can't see this mechanic giving an immense combat advantage. And, so far, it's not easy enough to be trivial either. (Atleast for me.)
Soooo.... We're pretty good for now?
Should prolly let it be for a month or two and see what it's like.
good game design would dictate picking up speed by just holding w+spacebar or something along those lines
Had me chuckle aloud while reading this. This is the definition of the current generation of gaming. And it's horrible.
Why don't you add qwop-style movement to the game? it would be skillful as hell to just move around the map!
Oh wait, you're entirely clueless as to good game design. strafe jumping/bhop/walljump adds literally 0 skill ceiling to the game; any good player can do it with very little effort.
Then again, ns2 doesn't really have many talented players, so I can see why there would be bad players arguing for ridiculously arbitrary movement mechanics
i heard that if you are right handed, and you play using the mouse in your left hand, you become more skilled.
Lets just make competitions where everyone just plays with inverted controls, that way this game becomes retarded
I wonder if you have even tried the mechanic that was shown in the video. There is nothing unintuitive or retarded about it. It literally takes 30 minutes and you'll get it. There are things in this game that are 10 times more retarded or "unintuitive" than the jumping mechanic shown in the video.
Edit: Besides it only gives 10-20% more speed and it's fairly situational where you can use it.
Oh wait, you're entirely clueless as to good game design. strafe jumping/bhop/walljump adds literally 0 skill ceiling to the game; any good player can do it with very little effort.
You said it yourself. "Any good player can do it". Emphasis on good. A good player can do it, a bad player cannot. Isn't this the very definition of skill?
Nothing wrong with games that require only macro-level skills, i.e. intelligence, positioning, strategy etc., but if you take all technique away from NS2 and turn mechanics into your suggested "all you need to do is press W", you get one shallow game. NS2 isn't exactly deep strategy-wise.
Not a single aspect of the current skulk movement features, even the intended ones, are intuitive from the get-go. If they were, we wouldn't need tutorial videos which even you awesome on these forums.
but you need to make it either a) intuitive or b) communicated somehow.
So while wall hopping may not be intuitive for the uninitiated (because anyone following NS2 for the previous years, alpha, beta, even after launch, all had at one point played with wall hopping) it is however communicated.
Here's the problem though: The mechanic has changed constantly; so much that the communication of it (loading hints, in game tip vids, changelogs) has failed to keep up.
Lack of said A) or doesn't mean you continue on that course though.
Remedy it, don't use a non communicated, unintuitive mechanic to justify another.
Oh wait, you're entirely clueless as to good game design. strafe jumping/bhop/walljump adds literally 0 skill ceiling to the game; any good player can do it with very little effort.
You said it yourself. "Any good player can do it". Emphasis on good. A good player can do it, a bad player cannot. Isn't this the very definition of skill?
Nothing wrong with games that require only macro-level skills, i.e. intelligence, positioning, strategy etc., but if you take all technique away from NS2 and turn mechanics into your suggested "all you need to do is press W", you get one shallow game. NS2 isn't exactly deep strategy-wise.
the point is that no mechanic should be difficult for new players and trivially easy for good players. This is a fundamental root of bad skill curve design. This is part of the reason that mechanics like walljumping or bhopping are fundamentally bad mechanics for any fps game. The focus should be on making combat itself very deep, not the traveling mechanic.
the point is that no mechanic should be difficult for new players and trivially easy for good players.
Well depends what is hard. Any decent fps player who has done anykind of bhopping earlier can learn ns2 movement quickly.
It's like you should remove mouseaim from fps shooters because doom players can only turn with keys.
You should put in mechanics that are fun and work.
Aiming is a natural mechanic though, whereas bunnyhopping is odd. How you could compare the two is strange.
For some players bunnyhopping is natural in gaming enviroment as they have done it for over 10 years. Using the almost universal mouse look as a comparison as most pc gamers have done that; nothing strange there.
The movement mechanic is like learning to ride a bike.
First you see the bigger kids doing it, you want to do it and give it a go, you suck and flail all over the place, but slowly you get the hang of it and then it's HELL YEAH THIS IS FUN.
Aiming is a natural mechanic though, whereas bunnyhopping is odd. How you could compare the two is strange.
For some players bunnyhopping is natural in gaming enviroment as they have done it for over 10 years. Using the almost universal mouse look as a comparison as most pc gamers have done that; nothing strange there.
Bunnyhopping is a relic of an engine bug that got popular, being around for 10 years doesn't make it intuitive in any way. Using it because "it's what we've always done" isn't good enough of a reason.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Not to mention wall hopping is not bunny hopping ??
The best rocket arena player wouldn't know to glance off of walls when forced to play skulk?
He may eventually discover it, sure.. But this doesn't mean that it shouldn't be communicated somehow.
Aiming is a natural mechanic though, whereas bunnyhopping is odd. How you could compare the two is strange.
For some players bunnyhopping is natural in gaming enviroment as they have done it for over 10 years. Using the almost universal mouse look as a comparison as most pc gamers have done that; nothing strange there.
Bunnyhopping is a relic of an engine bug that got popular, being around for 10 years doesn't make it intuitive in any way. Using it because "it's what we've always done" isn't good enough of a reason.
It doesn't need to be intuitive, as we've been through many times in this thread. Sure, it would be a merit if it was intuitive, but we've seen that creating an intuitive and fun movement mechanic just isn't going to happen. Playing the skulk is for the first time ever fun. It has nothing to do with nostalgia.
the point is that no mechanic should be difficult for new players and trivially easy for good players. This is a fundamental root of bad skill curve design. This is part of the reason that mechanics like walljumping or bhopping are fundamentally bad mechanics for any fps game. The focus should be on making combat itself very deep, not the traveling mechanic.
Thing is that travelling mechanic is 80% of the skulks combat mechanic.
Of course we could remove walljumping and bunnyhopping from the game and skulks could just press W and go 20 speed. After that we could reduce skulks bitecone by 70%. Travelling easy - combat hard and "deep". That oughta do it!
(Note: Not really sure what you mean by making skulk combat deep without skill based movement system)
and learning new ways to control your character is a nice feature for the more hardcore gamer.
I see, so the method in which for players to learn new ways to control their character is by word of mouth and random corners of an internet gaming forum?
I'm all for leaving it in, (as long as it's capped to lower speeds than 20!!) given the varying feedback on it's complexity, but you need to make it either a) intuitive or b) communicated somehow.
I know most vote for A, so that it will be something that isn't found as often, and thus rewards the dedicated/hardcore.
Without meeting either criteria its just a hidden exploit that is out of reach from everyone else but the secret club that shares these things amongst one another.
Videos of those good players lately finding the limits of these mechanics have been incredibly helpful, feedback wise. I hope those users understand the importance of mechanics needing to meet those two criteria above though, and don't just walk away with "Well i won't be making videos anymore if they keep taking away our nice things".. i really do hope they understand the why.
Not everything needs to be intuitive to all players from the moment they start playing the game. To me this is the definition of shallow game play.
If I can understand every aspect of the game, at face value, then the game isn't deep.
Suggesting those layers means that it would in fact be intuitive to all players from the moment they start playing the game.
I think you meant "communicated", instead. To which i would agree, not everything needs to be communicated.... as long as it is intuitive.
p.s. yes powernode blocking was once deemed unintended, and efforts were made to enforce an area around it in which you could not build.. but it led to more bugs and it was eventually dropped.
Sorry, swing and a miss.
I mean not all mechanics need to be intuitive... they don't need to be communicated either. I *meant* what I said.
Think of it this way: Not all the subtleties and complexities of a game need to be apparent to a new player. In fact, it is better if they are hidden, to some extent , because the cognitive load of learning the basics and the advanced concepts at the same time is too high.
The problem is, this is really hard to explain, because by definition examples are hard to grasp unless you really understand the game the example comes from.
I'll give it a shot:
An example: Star Craft
In star craft 2, there is a unit called a Void Ray, that has a constant damage single target beam. The damage it deals ramps up over time. If spend too long with out firing, you lose your damage ramp up. This is intuitive...
What is not intuitive, is that if you rapidly change between moving and shooting you can actually move the void rays while firing with them. This is a hugely difficult thing to do intelligently, and it takes a lot of dexterity to do it well. I also never thought to try it until I read about it on a forum, because I was too lazy to experiment.
An example: Go (the ancient board game)
You have to know the game for this example to make sense, but I'll put it here any way. In go there is a concept of a set of pieces being 'alive' or 'dead.' Dead pieces can no longer be saved and will always be captured. Alive stones will on the board the rest of the game and can no longer be removed by the other player. The 'rules' for each structures are alive and which structures are dead is simple at first... but the more you learn about the game the more complex determining the life/death status of a set of stones is. I have played the game extensively, and more advance players can look at a group of stones declare it 'dead' while I really think it is alive... Then they show me why it is dead, and I still don't get it. After an hour of study it may begin to make sense to me. This is how I get better at the game.
An example: NS2
Intuitively, marines feel like they need to bunch up in order to be safe. New players will stand next to RTs, and other marines. As they play more they learn that good marine positioning is actually to maximize the distance between you and your friends while maintaining line of sight. This isn't intuitive, as I'd like to stay close to my allies. It isn't communicated either, no where in the game text, or mechanics does it explicitly show you should stay away from your team mates, while still keeping sight of them. There are no mechanics that reward this explicitly either.
Now, you can claim that this is 'intuitive' but the proof is in the pudding: new players, almost as a rule, do this wrong. To me that says it only becomes clear why you play spread out as marines, after you play a long while to learn it, or you have it explained to you by some one who has already learned it.
Also: more advance players will tell you there are plenty of times when you don't want to be too spread out as marines, once again the when and why isn't intuitive, or immediately understandable to a new player, or even a relatively experienced player... always learning...
Also: Knowing, understanding, and exploiting game knowledge is a perfectly legitimate skill. Should I feel bad the next time I chomp some new marine player because he doesn't know his gun has a fixed spread, and he is feathering the trigger like it was call of duty? Should I feel bad when I play a game and the enemy comm doesn't know how to counter it?
Where do you draw the line on game knowledge being an exploit or being good game play? (You can't really) You can only decide which mechanics enhance the game play experience you want, vs which detract from it.
.....
Lastly, the most hilarious thing about all this: Clearly these mechanics are intuitive and communicated to someone... because people are figuring them out and posting them on forums. Just because you couldn't see it at your skill level, doesn't mean it wasn't obvious and easy to learn for some one at a higher skill level.
Comments
Sorry i dont think i made it clear, no UWE staff will not ban you for jumping around, and I as a admin on the UWE servers will not do it aswell.
However, most people, as you know, allso venture outside of the official servers, where UWE have no control of who is administrator and who is not.
And I as a admin on the official servers, see alot of banappeals and complaints from people being banned (on other servers) becouse of exploitations, or "clever use of game mechanics". And asked if i can lift the bans.
More so, then most others, becouse unlike other server admins, I have admin access to 100s of servers.
As for you posting speed tutorials, you may have seen that the Devs actualy take that as good feedback, and build/improve upon it.
And as a hole, its vary valueable for the devs that people like yourself take your time to test the gamecode/mechanics to its limits. (And as you do it, explain how and why)
And i think the Devs like, that people are mastering the move mechanics and are contributing whit tutorials, just as they like mappers map and modders modding. Its all beneficial to an healthy and active community.
+BHOP as a mechanic, have seen 100s of coding hours, from multible Devs, to be made posible. So dont worry about being banned from UWE servers, becouse you are faster then the average player.
As for the movement code, that is something that have been in the works and been tweaked for months, and is most likely not a direct result of your videos.
Anyways, im sorry for the confusion. But still heed my warning(this goes for all), clever usage of game mechanics might be seen as cheating on some servers. So my everlasting advice is to stick to few communities and servers, get to be a regular on 2-3 servers, where people know you. That way you minimize the risk of being banned. (And me getting ban apeals outside of UWE servers)
So after trying it out myself for about 20 minutes I can understand the basics of it and how it works...and I don't think that it is a bug/glitch for the sole fact that the movements make sense.
You are trying to spend the least amount of time on the wall in order to gain a speed boost while not capturing any friction from the wall...adds a more difficult mechanic to the already stale and easy que jumping
It has precise angles and timing which to me clearly indicates it's a wanted mechanic. You can reach 14+ momentarily in like 1-2 places in maps and only in air just after qued walljumps via good route; not like you're flying off at leapspeed round the map.
Do people really want to go back to
?
Now do you want to make more assumptions that you have no clue about?
I'm all for leaving it in, (as long as it's capped to lower speeds than 20!!) given the varying feedback on it's complexity, but you need to make it either a) intuitive or b) communicated somehow.
I know most vote for A, so that it will be something that isn't found as often, and thus rewards the dedicated/hardcore.
Without meeting either criteria its just a hidden exploit that is out of reach from everyone else but the secret club that shares these things amongst one another.
Videos of those good players lately finding the limits of these mechanics have been incredibly helpful, feedback wise. I hope those users understand the importance of mechanics needing to meet those two criteria above though, and don't just walk away with "Well i won't be making videos anymore if they keep taking away our nice things".. i really do hope they understand the why.
Suggesting those layers means that it would in fact be intuitive to all players from the moment they start playing the game.
I think you meant "communicated", instead. To which i would agree, not everything needs to be communicated.... as long as it is intuitive.
p.s. yes powernode blocking was once deemed unintended, and efforts were made to enforce an area around it in which you could not build.. but it led to more bugs and it was eventually dropped.
The fact that you said that means that we can do better, why should we give up on skulk movement as if this is the best we can ever come up with ? And we cant even dare to question anymore otherwise we will revert to a previous even worse mechanic ? Ive seen these types of scare tactics used before by people desperate to win their arguments
Dont agree with me ? then you must want 6 minute onos back
Dont agree with me ? then you must want 30 second leap back
Dont agree with me ? then you must want lawnmower bite cone back
Usually if you have to resort to something this low then your argument isnt very strong.
Ow do show me. 13 Do sounds very high with just one jump.
I heard that skill based mechanics are also bad because some people are really bad at those while others are much better at them.
Let's just make marine running competitions instead of classic shooting and biting. You can just hold down the W key and run forward, and since everyone runs the same speed, everyone will cross the finish line at the same time! EVERYBODY WINS!
i heard that if you are right handed, and you play using the mouse in your left hand, you become more skilled.
Lets just make competitions where everyone just plays with inverted controls, that way this game becomes retarded
Had me chuckle aloud while reading this. This is the definition of the current generation of gaming. And it's horrible.
Not a single aspect of the current skulk movement features, even the intended ones, are intuitive from the get-go. If they were, we wouldn't need tutorial videos which even you awesome on these forums.
Walking on walls makes you faster than walking on the ground.
Jumping constantly retains momentum instead of just, you know, running (the exact opposite of the marine movement by the way, how's that for contradictory?).
Strafing with A and D in retains momentum even when cornering and actually builds up speed.
You get speed boosts by hitting space bar when you're close to a wall instead of, you know, just pressing space bar when near the ground or, you know, just running.
None of these mechanics are intuitive or communicated to the player via anything else other than tutorials (which are community made), so why do we draw the line to this specific layer of the movement to call too unintuitive and known only by "word of mouth" and "random corners of an internet gaming forum"?
And still, a skulk coming straight atcha is usually a dead skulk. AND still, you gotta hit those bites.
I can't see this mechanic giving an immense combat advantage. And, so far, it's not easy enough to be trivial either. (Atleast for me.)
Soooo.... We're pretty good for now?
Should prolly let it be for a month or two and see what it's like.
Oh wait, you're entirely clueless as to good game design. strafe jumping/bhop/walljump adds literally 0 skill ceiling to the game; any good player can do it with very little effort.
Then again, ns2 doesn't really have many talented players, so I can see why there would be bad players arguing for ridiculously arbitrary movement mechanics
I wonder if you have even tried the mechanic that was shown in the video. There is nothing unintuitive or retarded about it. It literally takes 30 minutes and you'll get it. There are things in this game that are 10 times more retarded or "unintuitive" than the jumping mechanic shown in the video.
Edit: Besides it only gives 10-20% more speed and it's fairly situational where you can use it.
Its difficult for like the... first 10 minutes. Then you get it. Easy as pie!
I hope they don't remove this, but it does seem pretty unbalanced... you like don't even need celerity anymore.
You said it yourself. "Any good player can do it". Emphasis on good. A good player can do it, a bad player cannot. Isn't this the very definition of skill?
Nothing wrong with games that require only macro-level skills, i.e. intelligence, positioning, strategy etc., but if you take all technique away from NS2 and turn mechanics into your suggested "all you need to do is press W", you get one shallow game. NS2 isn't exactly deep strategy-wise.
Here's the problem though: The mechanic has changed constantly; so much that the communication of it (loading hints, in game tip vids, changelogs) has failed to keep up.
Lack of said A) or
Remedy it, don't use a non communicated, unintuitive mechanic to justify another.
Problem solved.
It's like you should remove mouseaim from fps shooters because doom players can only turn with keys.
You should put in mechanics that are fun and work.
First you see the bigger kids doing it, you want to do it and give it a go, you suck and flail all over the place, but slowly you get the hang of it and then it's HELL YEAH THIS IS FUN.
Bunnyhopping is a relic of an engine bug that got popular, being around for 10 years doesn't make it intuitive in any way. Using it because "it's what we've always done" isn't good enough of a reason.
The best rocket arena player wouldn't know to glance off of walls when forced to play skulk?
He may eventually discover it, sure.. But this doesn't mean that it shouldn't be communicated somehow.
It doesn't need to be intuitive, as we've been through many times in this thread. Sure, it would be a merit if it was intuitive, but we've seen that creating an intuitive and fun movement mechanic just isn't going to happen. Playing the skulk is for the first time ever fun. It has nothing to do with nostalgia.
Thing is that travelling mechanic is 80% of the skulks combat mechanic.
Of course we could remove walljumping and bunnyhopping from the game and skulks could just press W and go 20 speed. After that we could reduce skulks bitecone by 70%. Travelling easy - combat hard and "deep". That oughta do it!
(Note: Not really sure what you mean by making skulk combat deep without skill based movement system)
Sorry, swing and a miss.
I mean not all mechanics need to be intuitive... they don't need to be communicated either. I *meant* what I said.
Think of it this way: Not all the subtleties and complexities of a game need to be apparent to a new player. In fact, it is better if they are hidden, to some extent , because the cognitive load of learning the basics and the advanced concepts at the same time is too high.
The problem is, this is really hard to explain, because by definition examples are hard to grasp unless you really understand the game the example comes from.
I'll give it a shot:
An example: Star Craft
In star craft 2, there is a unit called a Void Ray, that has a constant damage single target beam. The damage it deals ramps up over time. If spend too long with out firing, you lose your damage ramp up. This is intuitive...
What is not intuitive, is that if you rapidly change between moving and shooting you can actually move the void rays while firing with them. This is a hugely difficult thing to do intelligently, and it takes a lot of dexterity to do it well. I also never thought to try it until I read about it on a forum, because I was too lazy to experiment.
An example: Go (the ancient board game)
You have to know the game for this example to make sense, but I'll put it here any way. In go there is a concept of a set of pieces being 'alive' or 'dead.' Dead pieces can no longer be saved and will always be captured. Alive stones will on the board the rest of the game and can no longer be removed by the other player. The 'rules' for each structures are alive and which structures are dead is simple at first... but the more you learn about the game the more complex determining the life/death status of a set of stones is. I have played the game extensively, and more advance players can look at a group of stones declare it 'dead' while I really think it is alive... Then they show me why it is dead, and I still don't get it. After an hour of study it may begin to make sense to me. This is how I get better at the game.
An example: NS2
Intuitively, marines feel like they need to bunch up in order to be safe. New players will stand next to RTs, and other marines. As they play more they learn that good marine positioning is actually to maximize the distance between you and your friends while maintaining line of sight. This isn't intuitive, as I'd like to stay close to my allies. It isn't communicated either, no where in the game text, or mechanics does it explicitly show you should stay away from your team mates, while still keeping sight of them. There are no mechanics that reward this explicitly either.
Now, you can claim that this is 'intuitive' but the proof is in the pudding: new players, almost as a rule, do this wrong. To me that says it only becomes clear why you play spread out as marines, after you play a long while to learn it, or you have it explained to you by some one who has already learned it.
Also: more advance players will tell you there are plenty of times when you don't want to be too spread out as marines, once again the when and why isn't intuitive, or immediately understandable to a new player, or even a relatively experienced player... always learning...
Also: Knowing, understanding, and exploiting game knowledge is a perfectly legitimate skill. Should I feel bad the next time I chomp some new marine player because he doesn't know his gun has a fixed spread, and he is feathering the trigger like it was call of duty? Should I feel bad when I play a game and the enemy comm doesn't know how to counter it?
Where do you draw the line on game knowledge being an exploit or being good game play? (You can't really) You can only decide which mechanics enhance the game play experience you want, vs which detract from it.
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Lastly, the most hilarious thing about all this: Clearly these mechanics are intuitive and communicated to someone... because people are figuring them out and posting them on forums. Just because you couldn't see it at your skill level, doesn't mean it wasn't obvious and easy to learn for some one at a higher skill level.