NS1 & NS2 have always been, and probably always will be community games - i.e you find one or two servers and get to know others on it, and in time you become a regular. For me it's the YO-Clan server in the UK, any time I jump on there it's probably filled with 50%+ player names that I'll have played with countless times before, some worse, some better. It's fun getting to know the other regulars, tactics, play styles or even just their sense of humour when talking crap over the mic.
That to me, is a far better experience than being thrown onto a random server with random players you don't know.
I agree 100%.
As much as I loved NS1, if NS2 been released as a matchmaking only game ( yes, I know that's not what's being suggested) I very seriously doubt if I would have broken 100 hours.
a high skill ceiling doesn't help competitive play as much as people may lead you to believe
^^ very much agree with this statement right here.
I used to be all about high skill ceilings in games as I played in #1 clans in Team Fortress Classic, which had a high skill ceiling. Then when TF2 came out, I was very much disappointed because the skill ceiling had been greatly lowered.
After years went by and even playing TF2 a bunch, I realized that even with a lower skill ceiling there is a LOT of nuanced strategic team based play that comes about as a result of a lower skill ceiling instead of being more about individual skill. The teams that make that work better are the ones that win. It changed my view about the subject.
Lowering the skill ceiling would not a necessarily bad thing for NS2.
After years went by and even playing TF2 a bunch, I realized that even with a lower skill ceiling there is a LOT of nuanced strategic team based play that comes about as a result of a lower skill ceiling instead of being more about individual skill. The teams that make that work better are the ones that win. It changed my view about the subject.
Can you give me an example of "nuanced strategic team based play" that a high skill ceiling would prevent from happening?
I think I understand where you're coming from, you're saying that a lower skill ceiling puts more emphasis on the strategic aspect of the game... but a higher skill ceiling doesn't take anything away from that
I think I understand where you're coming from, you're saying that a lower skill ceiling puts more emphasis on the strategic aspect of the game... but a higher skill ceiling doesn't take anything away from that
It doesn't technically take away from it, however, the emphasis is put more on individual skill as a result of a higher skill ceiling.
Having a lower skill ceiling, while also having strategic team based play also results in more casual players and doesn't necessarily take anything away from comp play. Comp players just adapt and focus more on different aspects of the game play.
You say that strategy / teamwork is more important in a lower skill ceiling game? What if 2 teams in a higher kill ceiling have the same individual player skill, that is when teamwork comes in.
I would say that a higher skill ceiling potentially does take away from the team strategy. At least in pub anyway. This is because if one or two people with a massive skill difference join a team then their skill can outweigh any team work by the opposition.
I'm sure we have all seen the godlike lerks, fades and marines who's individual impact even in 8v8 is enough to guarantee the out come of a game.
With such a high skill ceiling the potential for a big gap between random players in a pub is made worse imo.
For the record I don't think lowering the ceiling is the answer, it'll annoy more of the loyal player base than it will satisfy the casual.
nobody will play match making if its optional, would need to add incentive to play match making like swag unlocked if your ranking is high or something, so that the public scene transfers to match making ( a bit like it did in Heroes of newerth when they introduced match making there in the beta.)
You say that strategy / teamwork is more important in a lower skill ceiling game? What if 2 teams in a higher kill ceiling have the same individual player skill, that is when teamwork comes in.
The higher the skill ceiling the less likely that is to happen. Higher range naturally leads to a higher standard deviation, meaning players spread out over a wider area of the spectrum. In games with high enough range or low enough population (NS2 is both) this will even impact organized play at the highest levels.
Its pretty simple really, the game is being adjusted with comp players in mind as other have said.
It is also being designed around a server size that is too small, sorry but for all the shit that is hurled at 24+ player servers there is a reason they are the ones full (and the 16 player servers are empty) and its not because the public cant find a smaller server to play on.
The skill floor is continually raised, the hours that a new player is expected to invest is stupid.
The fact that the community continues to shrink illustrates this better than any wall of text on a forum.
Matchmaking is a good idea...but sadly it alone wont suffice. i would suggest that horse has bolted.
Marine skill floor is stupidly low in comparison to alien skill floor (its irrelevent if part of the reason is that we all know how to point and shoot).
Even if you do manage to invest the hours just to learn to play a skulk...you will need to repeat this across the other 4 alien lifeforms.
This is just to be able to start having some level of fun playing aliens, sorry but you cant expect everyone who plays this game to be willing to invest large portions of their life.
There has been a vocal minority who have tried to speak up for the casual gamer through out the beta and since launch, sadly though we are not part of the cool crowd and as such our voices dont get heard.
I have all but stopped playing in recent weeks, the game has sadly continued to head down an elitist path.
I dont have the time (or inclination) to invest most time into this game.
I also dont know if I would purchase any future games from UWE as I dont believe they know what makes a game good and have simply set about appeasing the forum "in crowd", as such I have little faith in any future projects.
There will no doubt be the same ppl saying "good riddence" etc...but I think UWE needs to stop and ask themselves why players with over 800 hours of game time are leaving.
Certainly for me its not through performance issues (I played through beta), boredom or a skill ceiling thats too low.
I only tend to play on YO-CLAN's server these days because I know I will be playing with a fun player base, its the people that make the game more fun for me not matchmaking.
I would say that the recent changes, esp the awful balance mod, does tend to put people off, people don't like change. Look at Counter-Strike, same maps are always played, people like the familiar.
I look forward to more official maps from UWE and while there are great fun people on the YO-CLAN server I will keep playing.
Hi. I joined during the steam sale because it was cheap. I am really loving the game and i have watched countless hours of fan-made guides and footage. I have also played a lot of skulk as the potential for complete ownage is so high and that's intriguing to me.
I would love to play nothing but this game but the thing that makes me log on and then nearly instantly log off again is full servers with decent ping >80 and some clan that all team up on one team and then the other team just loses. If these 2 problems could be fixed i would be hooked but both cant be done with dedicated servers. Some kind of matchmaking would be nice and would definitely bring people in that don't want to deal with the server problems but just want to play the game because they enjoy it.
I truly feel like this game could have a lot of potential if the burden of getting a good ping and a balanced team wasn't on the players.
YOclan really? Every time I play on there its silent and I'm the only one talking to a team of completely unresponsive marines/skulks.. Honestly communication with teammates is so crucial in this game for fun AND success, I generally leave for a different server within a couple of minutes if nobody is talking/ listening.
But it probably wouldn't pull away the "lol it's a pub" type of player who are the real problem.
What do you mean?
I am referring to the type of comp player that plays pub games with complete lack of regard for their fellow players because "lol, its a pub. it doesn't matter." As if the only time they should be concerned with the teams being even, the balance of the game, and the experience of others is in a ladder or league match.
These types of players are the ones that will cause the greatest detriment to the future of the game and are not likely to give up their farming because there is matchmaking. Any comp player that is likely to use matchmaking is probably also the kind that would seek to keep teams even or choose to handicap themselves or play a role that would not curbstomp others in a public setting.
Don't know if I fully follow your train of thought. Most comp players enjoy challenges and get bored extremely quickly if there is no challenge. Even if some of us just goof around in pubs, not many would stay in the server very long if it was a landslide every game. We get nothing out of that. It's the pubstompers/pubstars that would still pollute the servers and stack teams.
Don't know if I fully follow your train of thought. Most comp players enjoy challenges and get bored extremely quickly if there is no challenge. Even if some of us just goof around in pubs, not many would stay in the server very long if it was a landslide every game. We get nothing out of that. It's the pubstompers/pubstars that would still pollute the servers and stack teams.
I didn't say it was a majority, I said the problem children wouldn't use matchmaking. Thereby not really lessening the problem of unbalanced or uneven teams.
Hey, sorry, orchaint.Sorry I made you leave NS2.XD
Would like to reinforce underline the idea of matchmaking again.Best time I had was on a russian server with mostly newbies.No ****s, who had played since the universe began.Everyone learned together.
1 guy can kill your entire team(I´ve gone on full on rage modes, by insulting the guy, it is basically my thing now; I usually get kicked, but it sure is satisfying to tell that selfish fade or shotgunner to watch his whole family get ra**ed and killed)
Having been on the receiving end of this specific abuse from you while on my own clan server, which I personally paid money for, I can tell you now that the pathetic, childish outburst turned your entire team against you and won you no friends. It was mildly entertaining, and of course flattering to have precipitated such an unwarranted attack through nothing more than a small amount of skill and some teamwork, though.
I am genuinely confused about what you're trying to achieve, though...
Not trying to achieve anything.You pissed me off by getting way too many kills, killing me too many times by some bs method and not dying enough in the process.(and in combination with your good ping and a good computer too).Not to mention you were in a stacked team.OH, my gosh it´s SOOOO hard to fight against the other team....
I REALLY want to know if you´ve EVER experienced frustration while playing this game.Because if you play like you have, I don´t see how you can criticise me for me being pissed off.Please try joining the loosing the team(in a different server) for a while and then loose 10 games in row and the try to not to get pissed off.I really want to see how long you can take it.
And if you manage to still win games after that, then you are still the reason this game needs matchmaking.
I've been stomped in gathers against all Div-1 players, I've been stomped in clan matches against MUCH better players, I've been stomped MANY times on the obviously losing team in pub servers (and frequently switch team at the beginning of a round in an attempt to balance the server, and sometimes after a few minutes too).
So yes, I know the frustration of losing and playing against much better players. I know it well.
But you know what? I don't shout abuse at people, I don't throw my toys out of the pram, and I don't begrudge the opposition their win, or their kills on me. I have never, EVER come across someone with such a bad attitude towards gaming as yours, and I'll flat out tell you this: it's inexcusable. Grow up.
PS I play on a 3+ year old machine on a crappy monitor.
a high skill ceiling doesn't help competitive play as much as people may lead you to believe
^^ very much agree with this statement right here.
I used to be all about high skill ceilings in games as I played in #1 clans in Team Fortress Classic, which had a high skill ceiling. Then when TF2 came out, I was very much disappointed because the skill ceiling had been greatly lowered.
After years went by and even playing TF2 a bunch, I realized that even with a lower skill ceiling there is a LOT of nuanced strategic team based play that comes about as a result of a lower skill ceiling instead of being more about individual skill. The teams that make that work better are the ones that win. It changed my view about the subject.
Lowering the skill ceiling would not a necessarily bad thing for NS2.
Still waiting for examples of nuanced strategy and team based play.
In my books TF2 is a decent comp game due to the big community, wide competition and manageable mechanics, but that's it. I don't know if I didn't look deep enough into it, but it never really sparked my interest in the way that Q3, NS1, Brood War or Dota 2 do. Those games are filled with personal styles and amazing potential whereas TF2 mostly boiled down to one team winning a bit more in TDM. There are moments where TF2 is interesting, but they are too few and far between when the core gameplay itself isn't that spectacular compared to the very top dogs.
To me, ranked server seems to be an easier route at first. Make it possible for server admins to easily use it.
All you need is some kind of tracking of user skill, and then some cvars to allow range for eligible players. Thus if the ranking works, the servers shouldn't have imba teams.
Then go for MM, which takes more players and has some other problems.
I didn't say it was a majority, I said the problem children wouldn't use matchmaking. Thereby not really lessening the problem of unbalanced or uneven teams.
Personally speaking I know it would help people like me. I personally like to play pub ns2. I get enjoyment out of not caring and playing under no pressure to do well. At the same time I can't do that most of the time care free or else I come across as a huge douche bag who just pub stomps "for kicks" when in reality i just like to play ns2 casually and relax. I would totally join a quick match making system that put me into a server with people of more appropriate skill level.
Hell even if i had the ability to open the browser, sort by ping and take a look at the average play time of people in the server and join a server of that would be amazing. It would help players pick servers appropriately and help immensely during sale weekends.
I didn't say it was a majority, I said the problem children wouldn't use matchmaking. Thereby not really lessening the problem of unbalanced or uneven teams.
Personally speaking I know it would help people like me. I personally like to play pub ns2. I get enjoyment out of not caring and playing under no pressure to do well. At the same time I can't do that most of the time care free or else I come across as a huge douche bag who just pub stomps "for kicks" when in reality i just like to play ns2 casually and relax. I would totally join a quick match making system that put me into a server with people of more appropriate skill level.
Hell even if i had the ability to open the browser, sort by ping and take a look at the average play time of people in the server and join a server of that would be amazing. It would help players pick servers appropriately and help immensely during sale weekends.
Then clearly my comments were not directed at you. I have no bone of contention with comp players; I was one once upon a time. I have a huge problem with selfish pricks, which clearly you are not. >-
To me, ranked server seems to be an easier route at first. Make it possible for server admins to easily use it.
All you need is some kind of tracking of user skill, and then some cvars to allow range for eligible players. Thus if the ranking works, the servers shouldn't have imba teams.
This is a great idea imo.
It could be implemented like the current rookie mode, only it's automatic. You could progress through 10 different rankings or something.
To borrow some rankings from the US marines go:
Rookie -> Private -> Corporal -> Sergeant -> Lieutenant -> Captain -> Major -> Colonel -> Lieutenant General -> General
Each rank gives you an icon by your in game screen name (hey looky there we just added achievements ).
Then the server admins can pick a range of players they want in their server.
I'm not a game developer, but I think UWE would just need to develop a stat tracking database by steam ID or something, add/ modify the constellation icon system to include ranks, and add a server operator filter option for ranks, and then also update the server browser to never display games you don't meet the rank requirments for (or grey them out so you have something to shoot for).
Then setup some official servers with the new system and I'm sure others would follow.
The added bonus of this route is it also allows server operators to have all inclusive servers like there are currently if they don't like the idea of restricting folks of any rank into their servers (for example if they like to train rookies).
This method seems like it would be fairly clean due to people wouldn't be able to choose their own ranks based on how good they think they are vs how good they actually are.
I have never understood why there is so many people in this game who buys it and expects it to be so EASY right off the bat. I mean this isn't angry bird nor pong right? This is a complex game, mix of rts/fps with 2 sides with really different gameplay. And then when they aren't willing to learn it, they just blame people who did and then blame the devs and ask them to dumb down the game.
The first time you played chess and got crushed by an experienced player, did you cry and ask him to change the rules and dumb it down until it became checkers because it's easier ? This is exactly how it looks like to me. If you can't or aren't willing to learn the game it's fine, but why should we step down to your level ?
Comments
I agree 100%.
As much as I loved NS1, if NS2 been released as a matchmaking only game ( yes, I know that's not what's being suggested) I very seriously doubt if I would have broken 100 hours.
^^ very much agree with this statement right here.
I used to be all about high skill ceilings in games as I played in #1 clans in Team Fortress Classic, which had a high skill ceiling. Then when TF2 came out, I was very much disappointed because the skill ceiling had been greatly lowered.
After years went by and even playing TF2 a bunch, I realized that even with a lower skill ceiling there is a LOT of nuanced strategic team based play that comes about as a result of a lower skill ceiling instead of being more about individual skill. The teams that make that work better are the ones that win. It changed my view about the subject.
Lowering the skill ceiling would not a necessarily bad thing for NS2.
Can you give me an example of "nuanced strategic team based play" that a high skill ceiling would prevent from happening?
I think I understand where you're coming from, you're saying that a lower skill ceiling puts more emphasis on the strategic aspect of the game... but a higher skill ceiling doesn't take anything away from that
It doesn't technically take away from it, however, the emphasis is put more on individual skill as a result of a higher skill ceiling.
Having a lower skill ceiling, while also having strategic team based play also results in more casual players and doesn't necessarily take anything away from comp play. Comp players just adapt and focus more on different aspects of the game play.
This has been my experience.
You say that strategy / teamwork is more important in a lower skill ceiling game? What if 2 teams in a higher kill ceiling have the same individual player skill, that is when teamwork comes in.
I'm sure we have all seen the godlike lerks, fades and marines who's individual impact even in 8v8 is enough to guarantee the out come of a game.
With such a high skill ceiling the potential for a big gap between random players in a pub is made worse imo.
For the record I don't think lowering the ceiling is the answer, it'll annoy more of the loyal player base than it will satisfy the casual.
The higher the skill ceiling the less likely that is to happen. Higher range naturally leads to a higher standard deviation, meaning players spread out over a wider area of the spectrum. In games with high enough range or low enough population (NS2 is both) this will even impact organized play at the highest levels.
It is also being designed around a server size that is too small, sorry but for all the shit that is hurled at 24+ player servers there is a reason they are the ones full (and the 16 player servers are empty) and its not because the public cant find a smaller server to play on.
The skill floor is continually raised, the hours that a new player is expected to invest is stupid.
The fact that the community continues to shrink illustrates this better than any wall of text on a forum.
Matchmaking is a good idea...but sadly it alone wont suffice. i would suggest that horse has bolted.
Marine skill floor is stupidly low in comparison to alien skill floor (its irrelevent if part of the reason is that we all know how to point and shoot).
Even if you do manage to invest the hours just to learn to play a skulk...you will need to repeat this across the other 4 alien lifeforms.
This is just to be able to start having some level of fun playing aliens, sorry but you cant expect everyone who plays this game to be willing to invest large portions of their life.
There has been a vocal minority who have tried to speak up for the casual gamer through out the beta and since launch, sadly though we are not part of the cool crowd and as such our voices dont get heard.
I have all but stopped playing in recent weeks, the game has sadly continued to head down an elitist path.
I dont have the time (or inclination) to invest most time into this game.
I also dont know if I would purchase any future games from UWE as I dont believe they know what makes a game good and have simply set about appeasing the forum "in crowd", as such I have little faith in any future projects.
There will no doubt be the same ppl saying "good riddence" etc...but I think UWE needs to stop and ask themselves why players with over 800 hours of game time are leaving.
Certainly for me its not through performance issues (I played through beta), boredom or a skill ceiling thats too low.
I would. And many others too I think.
I would say that the recent changes, esp the awful balance mod, does tend to put people off, people don't like change. Look at Counter-Strike, same maps are always played, people like the familiar.
I look forward to more official maps from UWE and while there are great fun people on the YO-CLAN server I will keep playing.
I would love to play nothing but this game but the thing that makes me log on and then nearly instantly log off again is full servers with decent ping >80 and some clan that all team up on one team and then the other team just loses. If these 2 problems could be fixed i would be hooked but both cant be done with dedicated servers. Some kind of matchmaking would be nice and would definitely bring people in that don't want to deal with the server problems but just want to play the game because they enjoy it.
I truly feel like this game could have a lot of potential if the burden of getting a good ping and a balanced team wasn't on the players.
It would pull a good chunk of the comp scene away from pub servers.
But it probably wouldn't pull away the "lol it's a pub" type of player who are the real problem.
What do you mean?
I am referring to the type of comp player that plays pub games with complete lack of regard for their fellow players because "lol, its a pub. it doesn't matter." As if the only time they should be concerned with the teams being even, the balance of the game, and the experience of others is in a ladder or league match.
These types of players are the ones that will cause the greatest detriment to the future of the game and are not likely to give up their farming because there is matchmaking. Any comp player that is likely to use matchmaking is probably also the kind that would seek to keep teams even or choose to handicap themselves or play a role that would not curbstomp others in a public setting.
I didn't say it was a majority, I said the problem children wouldn't use matchmaking. Thereby not really lessening the problem of unbalanced or uneven teams.
I've been stomped in gathers against all Div-1 players, I've been stomped in clan matches against MUCH better players, I've been stomped MANY times on the obviously losing team in pub servers (and frequently switch team at the beginning of a round in an attempt to balance the server, and sometimes after a few minutes too).
So yes, I know the frustration of losing and playing against much better players. I know it well.
But you know what? I don't shout abuse at people, I don't throw my toys out of the pram, and I don't begrudge the opposition their win, or their kills on me. I have never, EVER come across someone with such a bad attitude towards gaming as yours, and I'll flat out tell you this: it's inexcusable. Grow up.
PS I play on a 3+ year old machine on a crappy monitor.
In my books TF2 is a decent comp game due to the big community, wide competition and manageable mechanics, but that's it. I don't know if I didn't look deep enough into it, but it never really sparked my interest in the way that Q3, NS1, Brood War or Dota 2 do. Those games are filled with personal styles and amazing potential whereas TF2 mostly boiled down to one team winning a bit more in TDM. There are moments where TF2 is interesting, but they are too few and far between when the core gameplay itself isn't that spectacular compared to the very top dogs.
All you need is some kind of tracking of user skill, and then some cvars to allow range for eligible players. Thus if the ranking works, the servers shouldn't have imba teams.
Then go for MM, which takes more players and has some other problems.
Personally speaking I know it would help people like me. I personally like to play pub ns2. I get enjoyment out of not caring and playing under no pressure to do well. At the same time I can't do that most of the time care free or else I come across as a huge douche bag who just pub stomps "for kicks" when in reality i just like to play ns2 casually and relax. I would totally join a quick match making system that put me into a server with people of more appropriate skill level.
Hell even if i had the ability to open the browser, sort by ping and take a look at the average play time of people in the server and join a server of that would be amazing. It would help players pick servers appropriately and help immensely during sale weekends.
Then clearly my comments were not directed at you. I have no bone of contention with comp players; I was one once upon a time. I have a huge problem with selfish pricks, which clearly you are not.
This is a great idea imo.
It could be implemented like the current rookie mode, only it's automatic. You could progress through 10 different rankings or something.
To borrow some rankings from the US marines go:
Rookie -> Private -> Corporal -> Sergeant -> Lieutenant -> Captain -> Major -> Colonel -> Lieutenant General -> General
Each rank gives you an icon by your in game screen name (hey looky there we just added achievements
Then the server admins can pick a range of players they want in their server.
I'm not a game developer, but I think UWE would just need to develop a stat tracking database by steam ID or something, add/ modify the constellation icon system to include ranks, and add a server operator filter option for ranks, and then also update the server browser to never display games you don't meet the rank requirments for (or grey them out so you have something to shoot for).
Then setup some official servers with the new system and I'm sure others would follow.
The added bonus of this route is it also allows server operators to have all inclusive servers like there are currently if they don't like the idea of restricting folks of any rank into their servers (for example if they like to train rookies).
This method seems like it would be fairly clean due to people wouldn't be able to choose their own ranks based on how good they think they are vs how good they actually are.
The first time you played chess and got crushed by an experienced player, did you cry and ask him to change the rules and dumb it down until it became checkers because it's easier ? This is exactly how it looks like to me. If you can't or aren't willing to learn the game it's fine, but why should we step down to your level ?
NS2 requires 12-18 players who; 1) speak the same language 2) know the ins and outs of a complex game 3) communicate and work together.
Newsflash: humans are bad at these things.
That said, devs really need to do a useability pass and clean up all the tooltips and pract. mode stuff to clean up the lies.