So the un-official official response from UWE regarding balance in this game is that the teams should bid on how much extra TRes to give the marine team?
What?!
Holy crap, sounds like we may see an attempt at meta-balancing next. Clueless devs.
So the un-official official response from UWE regarding balance in this game is that the teams should bid on how much extra TRes to give the marine team?
So the un-official official response from UWE regarding balance in this game is that the teams should bid on how much extra TRes to give the marine team?
What?!
Holy crap, sounds like we may see an attempt at meta-balancing next. Clueless devs.
Anyone think comp might be at least slightly more balanced (IE instead of 24% marines, maybe 35%?) if they played at 8v8 instead of 6v6? I'm thinking that marines would be able to stick in groups more and might have a chance of dealing with the fades with appropriate numbers and positioning.
Marines clearly have the greater numbers advantage in pub play, as the number of players per team increases the marine win rate increases, which is why in pubs 20+ tends to be more balanced despite being a bit of a clusterfuck. I just think a couple more players in comp might help even it out a bit there too.
I'm fairly certain that pubs 20+ tend to be more balanced because most people don't have a clue as to target priority in order to win games. They just want to shoot aliens/bite marines.
Here's an idea for balance test: make everything Natural Selection 1, and then slowly add more NS2 features to see what causes the most imbalance between teams.
The whole res situation in this game is a joke. We have TRes and PRes, which is confusing enough, but the commanders don't earn PRes as commanders because UWE hasn't fully thought through NS2.
Scrap everything, start from a perspective that you know works, and then add mechanisms that expand depth of strategy, playability, and enjoyment.
I really think NS2 should go back to the basics and implement customization options for players that suits their gameplay style. For instance, marines could unlock weapon attachments such as scope upgrades and increased magazine capacity based on their player score, or aliens could unlock adaptations that make their skulk model smaller with decreased hitbox, but slightly less armor.
Vanilla skulk and marine play is identical each match. Adding incentives to do well that also complements how you like to play the game makes gameplay more enjoyable. It also would help differ the game than the original.
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second... So I'm going for awesome.
There are more things important than balance. As fun as it is to have a game where both teams have 50% chance of winning its more enjoyable to have good mechanics to play with. Good, fun and quality gameplay mechanics is the key to make people stay in a game. Even if balance is 60-40% it would be ok if people can enjoy the games.
What game is that where you have not the same chance to win as your enemy? I agree with you that gameplay and mechanics are important but balance is the fundament of a succesful game. It does not have to be 50:50, but there was a build some times ago with 52:48. That was pretty good. Now we have 61:39 and 76:24......... So things are getting worse. And in my opinion its not very enjoyable to start on the marine side knowing that you have only a chance to win of 24%.
Especially in publics. If you have aliens in the opposite party who KNOW how to play aliens in a smart way you either need a very good cooperatring marine team or just really good aimer. If there are just 2 or 3 rookies in you marine team who do not communicate its simply a gg in minute 0:01
GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited August 2013
So guys pls use the balance mod thread to discuss ideas for more balance. everone who wants ns2 to be more like ns1 should just try out the ns2c mod, if you want to try something like RFK, try my RFP mod( redesign of pRess flow and point system)
And the idea of bidding for start tres is kind of interesting for competitive play.
On Pubs, Sometimes the teams are stacked which creates a disadvantage. I'm fairly good, but still can get owned by marines. It seems my hits are not landing and i get dis-orientated from the marine jumping over my head. Just doesnt feel smooth. I swear i bit him 5times...
Only way to play properly is to hit and runaway, let your team mate clean up. or run back and finish him after regen.
Also played a 60+ minute game on ns_veil , Alien team had complete map control. Marines were able to hold out with 1CC exo's. This one guy stele was one shotting us all with railgun. he had 70/5 ratio. i had 50/50 ratio.(xeno) lol..
We had to suicide rush the cc to win. The long hallways towards marine base create a disadvantage for aliens. Another tactic is to wait for 4marines to head to topo/c12 and rush marine base when there is less resistance.
On Pubs, Sometimes the teams are stacked which creates a disadvantage. I'm fairly good, but still can get owned by marines. It seems my hits are not landing and i get dis-orientated from the marine jumping over my head. Just doesnt feel smooth. I swear i bit him 5times...
Only way to play properly is to hit and runaway, let your team mate clean up. or run back and finish him after regen.
Also played a 60+ minute game on ns_veil , Alien team had complete map control. Marines were able to hold out with 1CC exo's. This one guy stele was one shotting us all with railgun. he had 70/5 ratio. i had 50/50 ratio.(xeno) lol..
We had to suicide rush the cc to win. The long hallways towards marine base create a disadvantage for aliens. Another tactic is to wait for 4marines to head to topo/c12 and rush marine base when there is less resistance.
You can not judge the balancing because of one very good marine or exo. for this one good exo comes 3 or 4 super marine-killer fades. And as you said, although the marines had this marine they ended up turteling in the end. I think pubs are not a good base to talk about balancing because of the stack problem. but we have the problems in div 2 and 3 too. And that is the point that should make us contemplative.
I hate to be a debbie downer, but there is such a laundry list of bad mechanics and failed feature implementations in this game it is beyond fixing.
The fade blink from the alpha was my personal favorite all because Flayra stayed up late and watched Nightcrawler from X-men. Even in b251 now years later, they still make it almost impossible to body block a good fade.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
So the un-official official response from UWE regarding balance in this game is that the teams should bid on how much extra TRes to give the marine team?
What?!
Just in case the word "personally" and my signature isn't enough - I don't speak for UWE, and my comment should not be taken to be any kind of response to anything. I was just expressing a personal whimsy of mine.
So the un-official official response from UWE regarding balance in this game is that the teams should bid on how much extra TRes to give the marine team?
What?!
Just in case the word "personally" and my signature isn't enough - I don't speak for UWE, and my comment should not be taken to be any kind of response to anything. I was just expressing a personal whimsy of mine.
I hate to be a debbie downer, but there is such a laundry list of bad mechanics and failed feature implementations in this game it is beyond fixing.
The fade blink from the alpha was my personal favorite all because Flayra stayed up late and watched Nightcrawler from X-men. Even in b251 now years later, they still make it almost impossible to body block a good fade.
Yea it's kind of insane how you can just kind of slide right by marines without being stopped by someone who clearly goes out of there way to block you in a hallway.
In NS2 the marinerounds are very teamplay heavy especially from the midgame. Less mistakes and you lose that why the win% is so different. IMO the heavy machine gun is missing.
In NS2 the marinerounds are very teamplay heavy especially from the midgame. Less mistakes and you lose that why the win% is so different. IMO the heavy machine gun is missing.
greetz Sap
Funny. I lost a game as marine today where we had near 70% map control and more rts running. but a gorge rush destroyed our ips and it was over. the commander was 10 secs not paying attention and we lost the game. there is NO way where aliens can lose because of one little mistake.
* comm didnt place obs so that a gorge was early spotted.
* no backup IPs on a different CC. (if you got so much of the map, you have res to do this)
* to many marines dying. Gone IPs means nothing if marines are alive.
* no marine checking map and responding to the red blip in base.
* no quickly placed ghost ip on another cc. (surely marines were close to either base or another capped techpoint?) If they werent, you should expect rushes and call atleast 1 back.
I see many mistakes in just that small explenation of the fight already.
Scrap everything, start from a perspective that you know works, and then add mechanisms that expand depth of strategy, playability, and enjoyment.
Scrapping everything sounds like an excellent way to lose 12+ months of development time for little to no progress. The temptation to completely re-engineer something is strong, but almost always a bad idea. This is true for software and probably true for game balance as well.
obs coverage is vital, I'll usually have 2 in main. if we got that much coverage. as well as at least one ip on the second chair if it's built yet. and when I can swing it, another arms lab there too.
Things are getting worse and worse. How long should we watch this without doing something? This is very far away from any balance. I does not have to be exactly 50:50, but 80:20 is insane. Something has to be done. In ns2 history we never had such bad stats.
Things are getting worse and worse. How long should we watch this without doing something? This is very far away from any balance. I does not have to be exactly 50:50, but 80:20 is insane. Something has to be done. In ns2 history we never had such bad stats.
There are lots of things being done, official changes will come with the content update that is coming soon, that has a large number of balance tweaks (an some new stuff)- and you have valiant efforts being made by the community to try and make things a little better in the short term.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Thank god they doubled the whip cost for the summercup.
I was bored of the whip-ball running around with umbra protection killing one marine after another.
These whips can be everywhere in seconds so im still missing a speed-nerf for the whips.
Uh, I think balance is pretty good in pub. Marines lose more, but over half of those losses is just because of messed up starts. Turret factory. Some weird fast exo build that fails horribly. No upgrades. Upgrades but nothing else. Marines sitting in base. Marines sitting at first RT. No marines protecting stuff. All marines protecting stuff. All marines spread out. No marines spread out.
There's just so many things to mess up as marines. While all aliens gotta do, is have a khamm that takes couple nearest RT's while the rest of the aliens go JUMP JUMP CHOMP CHOMP.
Why comp also has a low marine win rate? I've no idea, but I don't think it's the same reasons as pub. Maybe because Fades are so goddamn fast right now. Pre-250 fades used to stop, you could get a shot off then. Now it's just constant momentum. And fast one at that. Dunno.
I think improving jetpack to not suck (would also require improving leap to not suck) would help significantly against fades. What we have now is closer to a jump pack that can't realistically be used to chase anything down.
I think improving jetpack to not suck (would also require improving leap to not suck) would help significantly against fades. What we have now is closer to a jump pack that can't realistically be used to chase anything down.
jetpacks are already OP. use them to pinch, they're not meant to chase down. they already make Rt harass lategame nigh impossible for aliens, and Rt defense exponentially more difficult.if you can't push away a fade as a jp sg, he deserves to kill you. if you had the speed to chase down a fade, you have the speed to evade him almost endlessly.
Comments
Holy crap, sounds like we may see an attempt at meta-balancing next. Clueless devs.
yesssss reading comprehension at its finest
Marines clearly have the greater numbers advantage in pub play, as the number of players per team increases the marine win rate increases, which is why in pubs 20+ tends to be more balanced despite being a bit of a clusterfuck. I just think a couple more players in comp might help even it out a bit there too.
Agree with the first part, disagree with the second... So I'm going for awesome.
What game is that where you have not the same chance to win as your enemy? I agree with you that gameplay and mechanics are important but balance is the fundament of a succesful game. It does not have to be 50:50, but there was a build some times ago with 52:48. That was pretty good. Now we have 61:39 and 76:24......... So things are getting worse. And in my opinion its not very enjoyable to start on the marine side knowing that you have only a chance to win of 24%.
Especially in publics. If you have aliens in the opposite party who KNOW how to play aliens in a smart way you either need a very good cooperatring marine team or just really good aimer. If there are just 2 or 3 rookies in you marine team who do not communicate its simply a gg in minute 0:01
we can still revert some changes if sewlek can be convinced to go back on his baby.
And the idea of bidding for start tres is kind of interesting for competitive play.
On Pubs, Sometimes the teams are stacked which creates a disadvantage. I'm fairly good, but still can get owned by marines. It seems my hits are not landing and i get dis-orientated from the marine jumping over my head. Just doesnt feel smooth. I swear i bit him 5times...
Only way to play properly is to hit and runaway, let your team mate clean up. or run back and finish him after regen.
Also played a 60+ minute game on ns_veil , Alien team had complete map control. Marines were able to hold out with 1CC exo's. This one guy stele was one shotting us all with railgun. he had 70/5 ratio. i had 50/50 ratio.(xeno) lol..
We had to suicide rush the cc to win. The long hallways towards marine base create a disadvantage for aliens. Another tactic is to wait for 4marines to head to topo/c12 and rush marine base when there is less resistance.
You can not judge the balancing because of one very good marine or exo. for this one good exo comes 3 or 4 super marine-killer fades. And as you said, although the marines had this marine they ended up turteling in the end. I think pubs are not a good base to talk about balancing because of the stack problem. but we have the problems in div 2 and 3 too. And that is the point that should make us contemplative.
The fade blink from the alpha was my personal favorite all because Flayra stayed up late and watched Nightcrawler from X-men. Even in b251 now years later, they still make it almost impossible to body block a good fade.
Just in case the word "personally" and my signature isn't enough - I don't speak for UWE, and my comment should not be taken to be any kind of response to anything. I was just expressing a personal whimsy of mine.
Yea it's kind of insane how you can just kind of slide right by marines without being stopped by someone who clearly goes out of there way to block you in a hallway.
greetz Sap
Funny. I lost a game as marine today where we had near 70% map control and more rts running. but a gorge rush destroyed our ips and it was over. the commander was 10 secs not paying attention and we lost the game. there is NO way where aliens can lose because of one little mistake.
They didnt. It was a bunch of mistakes.
* comm didnt place obs so that a gorge was early spotted.
* no backup IPs on a different CC. (if you got so much of the map, you have res to do this)
* to many marines dying. Gone IPs means nothing if marines are alive.
* no marine checking map and responding to the red blip in base.
* no quickly placed ghost ip on another cc. (surely marines were close to either base or another capped techpoint?) If they werent, you should expect rushes and call atleast 1 back.
I see many mistakes in just that small explenation of the fight already.
Scrapping everything sounds like an excellent way to lose 12+ months of development time for little to no progress. The temptation to completely re-engineer something is strong, but almost always a bad idea. This is true for software and probably true for game balance as well.
251 public: Aliens: 66,36% Marines: 33,64%
251 competetive: Aliens: 80.21% (!!!) Marines: 19.79%
Things are getting worse and worse. How long should we watch this without doing something? This is very far away from any balance. I does not have to be exactly 50:50, but 80:20 is insane. Something has to be done. In ns2 history we never had such bad stats.
There are lots of things being done, official changes will come with the content update that is coming soon, that has a large number of balance tweaks (an some new stuff)- and you have valiant efforts being made by the community to try and make things a little better in the short term.
I was bored of the whip-ball running around with umbra protection killing one marine after another.
These whips can be everywhere in seconds so im still missing a speed-nerf for the whips.
There's just so many things to mess up as marines. While all aliens gotta do, is have a khamm that takes couple nearest RT's while the rest of the aliens go JUMP JUMP CHOMP CHOMP.
Why comp also has a low marine win rate? I've no idea, but I don't think it's the same reasons as pub. Maybe because Fades are so goddamn fast right now. Pre-250 fades used to stop, you could get a shot off then. Now it's just constant momentum. And fast one at that. Dunno.
Just my 2 cents.
jetpacks are already OP. use them to pinch, they're not meant to chase down. they already make Rt harass lategame nigh impossible for aliens, and Rt defense exponentially more difficult.if you can't push away a fade as a jp sg, he deserves to kill you. if you had the speed to chase down a fade, you have the speed to evade him almost endlessly.