pretending that some good NS2 teams is "top level" is kind of silly though because the world has much better aimers, especially from games like Quake / CS
I'm not disagreeing with you. I've played enough of both those games to know top level ns2 is not best of the best in terms of aim... Maybe I just simply misread your previous comment.
Fair to say, but what alternative do you propose? As I said, I'd love to see the sponitor data on fades, and I think it's pretty bananas that the community still has no interface to it.
Shall we start another thread calling for screenshots of scoreboards so we can start compiling data?
Your perspective is appreciated, and I would urge you consider that in terms of balance, a 20res Shotgun should not be able to stand 1v1 with a great fade sinked at 40(+5/upg) pres.
Now, what I was saying is that the shotgun can counteract the fade. Not "beat" the fade, but provide enough danger to fend it off indefinitely/provide enough threat to keep it away/kill it if it commits.
It isn't a linear argument, and I don't intend to make it sound that way.
Two or three shotguns is the equal PRES sink to a single fade, and 2-3 shotguns one-shots a fade if they can land the shots. The fade has to expose itself to land a hit, long enough for a centered shot. If one shotgunner who is 'great' can fend off the fade with one warding shot, surely 2-3 mediocre shotguns and a great shotgun can kill the fade.
Just some thoughts for consideration as your argument seemed to be based on my assertions as a linear-type argument that 1 Shotgun = 1 Fade; it isn't intended to be this way, nor should it be seen that way. I'm just saying as a shotgunner, for 20 res, I can hold off and/or severely injure a 40-55 pres Fade indefinitely... doesn't sound terribly imbalanced to me.
Add a couple half-missing 20 res shotguns with me, and it's a dead fade, in most games (And/or more likely if it's a great fade, it's just an ineffective fade who can't engage without dying).
The problem is the maneuverability combined with the health and damage. Alone those traits are fine, and even two wouldn't be an issue.
There is no clear counter for what they do. If the flame thrower drained energy faster, that could be a way(except it would unbalance it vs other Aliens), or if the Fade was unable to blink while on fire, that could be another solution. Every other unit in the game has a clear anti unit, that doesn't exist for the Fade.
I don't see this issue being easy to fix tbh. Any suggestion you can come up with without giving it considerable thought is just bound to have heavy implications that you couldn't predict in both pub and competitive play.
The problem isn't fades, it's that many marines in public play are kind of getting the wrong impression on what they should be doing. Public marine play is usually: Cap to next tech point -> rush phase -> put phase in every tech point -> turtle to Proto while protecting my K/D -> "Where are my Exos, I need them to finish the game!"
A lot of public players focus on getting RTs first instead of sending one group out to pressure. Many don't weld their teammates and the commanders seem to hate dropping meds/ammo even when the marines are deep in alien territory where they need them the most. Commanders think they have to rush phasegates for defense when their marines just need to hit their c key more often. All of these contribute to early fade domination by delaying upgrades, not delaying alien resflow for fades, and generally having weaker marines when the fades attack. Nowadays it's even worse because some comms will skip shotguns for the AA even when fades come out.
@ BobRossTheBoss
The problem isn't with commanders going phase at every tech point, I do that in most comm games. The problem is that as a pub commander, without phase, you're relying exclusively on your marines being able to think for themselves or follow your orders, have some communication from each other and have some level of skill. Teching up first sounds like a reasonable strategy and it is in comp play but in pubs, it's a fools errand. Then your team whines at you because you didn't get phase gates. Until we get whittled down to a community of mostly knowledgeable and hardcore players, that is never going to happen consistently.
I'm not saying that every marine commander would rather tech up before phase but that if it was the better option in pub play, more would do it and more would catch on but it's just not. That style of strategy and build just isn't compatible holistically in pub play, the less risky and more stable option is the phase gate play. I would like to see it catch on more though, maybe it will get marine players to think for themselves and being more aggressive. It's just tough for average pubs to think like that, if they could, the fade problem imo would be drastically diminished.
That's my theory anyway, I'll command some games and see if it can work consistently but I see it as being more frustrating than successful, most marines don't even know the map key and never use the bloody thing.
If the commander can drop meds decently he doesn't have to rush gates. If the commander meds their marines and/or drops them an armory the couple extra minutes that they sacrifice by going for upgrades before gates is easily mitigated as long as the marines have decent aim. If they are outnumbered then obviously the team on the other side can push up further. If pub players can figure out how to attack where marines aren't as aliens then they can learn some map awareness, how to split up at the beginning of the game, and when to push as marines. Right now there are a lot of newer players so it may seem like a lot of players simply don't listen.
one of the issues as I see it is player count. medding effectively without gimping yourself for a 6 man team is very different from medding effectively for12 man team. it might be truly cost prohibitive to use the same tactic in a pub as a competitive match simply due to numbers. phase first may be the right build for 20 man servers regardless of skill.
Please consider that if you put an excellent fade (Your examples of 70:1) on the Marine side, and give them A1-A2/W1-W2 and a Shotgun, they can handily prevent a fade of the same caliber from achieving the same K:D/Goals/"Stomp", generally. Might not kill the fade right away, but as they get A3/W3, it becomes more or less a fair 1v1. (Granted in a true 1v1 the fade can simply pick away at the marine and play area denial/harass/etc, but the marine has bullying power and can readily two-shot the fade).
The arguments regarding "Fadeballs" are more for the competitive scene (Which also needs consideration but isn't the subject of this thread unless i'm mistaken), because In the hundreds of pubs i've played post-250 (and pre-250), 95% of fades in any game are dying fairly early on (~2-6 minutes alive as a fade) to massed shotgun blobs. The "Fadeball" is strictly a competitive consideration, because as we've established by numerous posts, 90% of players "Can't hit the broad side of a barn".
The players who can't aim or play correctly on marine cannot play a stomping, absurd fade either. Sure, 250 increased the skill floor and therefore exacerbated the problem, but in a game where you have 2 marines who go 40:2 and 2 fades go 70:1, it isn't a 'fadeball', it's just good players doing what good players will do surrounded by not so good players in any environment, as any 'class', in any game.
Assuming we're looking at a public-game perspective here, it boils down to basically that players don't want to play with players of a higher skill because the game's skill ceiling allows for one player to completely transcend another in terms of viability. That is an understandable sentiment, but with the competitive scene where it is, it's not resolvable...
You can't expect great fades to not play fade.
You can't expect great shotgunners to exclusively use welders.
You shouldn't expect some level of balance based on terrible (~2-6% accuracy) players, because then you've literally got no balance at all because they aren't predictable or accountable to a level of gameplay.
Currently, great shotguns are more or less able to fend off/equalize great fade play. It isn't an exact 1:1 thing, and sure it depends greatly on context of the match, individual factors and lots of other variables... but generally speaking, when I have a w2+ shotgun and a1+, fades are more of a fun target and a good 1v1 then some kind of scary, unbeatable monster stomp machine.
TL:DR, Fades aren't a problem outside of competitive play; the problem is the players' dissatisfaction with their inability to aim and/or raise themselves in skill. Fades die to 2-3 shots, they can't really mitigate anything, and it comes down to learning how to play better. Competitive is another matter with "Fadeballs". (Always has been).
Five cents.
-Colt
also, a shotgun welder cost you 23 res, and you sometimes don't even lose that when losing to a good fade. in a sense, you've got multiple lives to throw away taking on a fade, without necessarily losing anything other than time. fade has one life.
That's a great post Colt, but I still disagree on a fundamental level. There is a significant disparity between the level of skill needed to be a 'great fade' and a 'great shotgunner'. The ideal in design is to be easy to learn, difficult to master - Fades are backwards from this.
I see all the time, and know personally, players who are only 'good' shotgunners, but 'great' fades. These players can go on unmitigated killing sprees as a fade, but when they are marines they can't stop or kill fades at their same skill level.
If we consider your argument that the skill translates equally to both sides, that great shotguns are able to equalize great fades, and we assume a roughly even distribution of skilled players between both teams over a very large sample size, then why is it so common to see unstoppable monster fades? Shouldn't the great fades be getting killed by the great shotgunners roughly 50% of the time?
It occurs to me that maybe that IS your experience, and the problem we are facing here is one of point of view. Competitive / top tier players are typically both 'great fades' AND 'great shotgunners' and they don't have trouble taking down fades - as you said yourself, you see it as a 'fun target and good 1v1'. Therefore, comp players are unable to see the problem from the casual point of view, because any game they are in is altered by their presence.
Your answer is the same one I always see in response to the 'Fades are OP' argument: "It comes down to learning how to play better." You are at a level where fades aren't a big deal for you, and you can't understand why anyone else is unable to reach that same level, but it's like trying to explain color to a blind man. Some of us will never reach the level you're at with a shotgun, no matter how many hours we put in. On the other hand, I frequently see players who are able to achieve the same effective results as a fade - unlimited kills, little to no deaths. By the time someone finally manages to get lucky and put them down, they have enough res to simply go fade again.
I have almost 1000 hours into NS2, and I'm pretty decent. I am usually the top scorer on my team, pretty much always in the top 3 at least. I typically get something like a 3:1 KD, and on a good day I might do 5:1 or better. So I'm somewhere in the 70-80th percentile, and I cannot consistently stop good fades, players who are at roughly my same skill level in all other aspects of the game. Given the diminishing returns of skill gain from time played, how many more thousands of hours should I put in before I can expect even odds?
I see game after game completely decided by one or two fades exerting their influence, and it was the same pre-250. I'm sick of it, and I want a different pub experience.
your understanding is flawed. pres wise a fade is equal to.two shotguns, and marine lives are cheap.and shotguns are recyclable. a great shotgunner may be great without killing a fade 1v1 in 50 percent of their encounters. since hes got at least two shotguns to work with. a shotgun and a fade might be equivalent in skillif he can kill the fade in 1 of 10 encounters and push him out from all the rest. marines are meant to die, skulks are meant to die... at this point onos are meant to die, but fades should survive. the only real way to compare skill like you want to, is during a hive push. a good shotgunner and his buddies vs a defending fade and his. two.sides of equal skill will save the hive or lose the hive in equal measure.
Seen a game where a Fade had 70/5, Marines won ... wouldn't have like(d) to have seen 2 Fades like that in the game, though.
"The old fade was changed for a reason..." - apparently, didn't work. 65% Alien win in comp ... that's 10% absolute difference in balance terms, not good.
Seen a game where a Fade had 70/5, Marines won ... wouldn't have like(d) to have seen 2 Fades like that in the game, though.
"The old fade was changed for a reason..." - apparently, didn't work. 65% Alien win in comp ... that's 10% absolute difference in balance terms, not good.
Apparently someone hasn't read the entire thread. Purely looking at the comp side, an individual fade is not all that strong once SG's come out. The ball is the problem. The majority of this thread is about the public fade anyway, which the changes did help out.
Why must we always talk in circles.
._.
I repeat: A single fade isnt the problem. If so, the marines deserve to lose.
Its the ammount of fades that pop up @ the same time.
There only 2 options left in my opinion:
Find a way to split the players pres (this would end in an more mixed alienteam)
or
Bind lifeforms more on biomass (this would end in an fadeball also, but a bit later and the fades would be weaker if biomass level is not high enough)
All the other ideas like: Stronger shotguns, HMG, .. would have an impact on other lifeforms too.
Imagine a stronger shotgun. This would end in threads like:
"Skulk is useless now, 1 hit shotgun op"
its been said before and people are getting off track by "skill floor" "skill ceiling". Its the timing of the appearance of multiple fades. That's it. That's the problem. A pub game can't handle 3+ fades all at the same time. the Fade isn't OP but FadeS are.
Up the damage on a shotgun. Then increase the biomass buffs for the lower lifeforms on a type of exponential decay model.
It's not simply trivial to solve. There are plenty of comp teams out there who are getting really good at taking down fades, even in the dreaded 4-5 fade ball. And I'm not just talking about div 1 teams!
So in public servers, multiple fades are a major headache because there often isn't the aim and/or the teamwork on marines to deal with it. Likewise, in some comp games, the fade ball IS dominating, and if aliens can hold on until 4 or 5 fades popping at the same time, and are all good enough not to lose them, or have sufficient map domination to be able to replace them, then they can stomp. However, good shotgunners really can destroy good fades, even in fade balls, provided there is equivalent teamwork on the marines (the fade ball requires teamwork, too). The trouble is this doesn't often happen in pubs but increasingly happens in comp games. This will make balancing difficult.
Increasingly, the way marine teams deal with fades is to make the most of early expansion and securing map control, limiting alien res as far as possible to delay while teching up to a2 + w1/2, and then turtling HARD. This mid-game ultra-defensive play is to maintain as much pres as possible through recycling shotguns, and means that fades have to take the huge risk of attacking marine phase positions/bases. It seems to be a reasonable way to finish teching, then you can keep a good strong defence while sending a couple of guys probing for a forward phase position to launch an attack from, which is still then safely near the phase for maintaining base defence. Unless aliens have the upper hand already, it's very difficult to break such a turtle, as marines will slowly be able to tech up while specifically trying to kill lifeforms during this extended period of play. Unless aliens can break it, they WILL be up against 3/3 marines with jp/sg and maybe an exo or two, and that's basically GG against a competent marine team.
So what's the upshot of this? Increase shotgun damage, and you're going to totally screw fades over in comp games, and you'll screw other alien lifeforms and structures over in ALL games. One option might be to weaken the marine turtle strategy by increasing research time on level 2 and 3 upgrades (but not level 1), but this would have to go hand in hand with some way of stopping teams putting 5 fades on the field at the same time. Dynamic pricing, while horrible from a hidden modifier perspective, would probably fix the issue, but there have been other suggestions in the beta test mod thread that probably warrant testing. Lack of onos viability is exacerbating the problem at the minute, I think.
TL;DR:
I think this is an issue at all levels of play, for different reasons. Balancing will not be trivial. It's not necessarily a fade OP issue.
The problem with using KDR as an indicator of whether or not the fade is OP is that KDR only measures deaths. In most circumstances, forcing the fade to retreat can be considered a victory, as once that fade is dead, it will not come back for another ten minutes or so, while a shotgunner can just run over and pick his shotgun back up or buy another one in a worst case scenario. If you force a fade to back out, you have put him out of action for ten to twenty seconds (mitigated, but not avoided by regen).
If the fade must be nerfed, I would be in favor of a speed drop off after every jump, to limit it's mobility or force it to enter into combat with less energy. Anything other than that would be too drastic.
I'm so sick of seeing these 1v1 arguments. It's not "can a fade beat a sg?" or "omg sgs are op against my worthless skulk". The largest problem in pubs is the majority of the team can't read the minimap and figure out where to go at any time. Also, a newish commander will be the enabler for these bad marines to play incorrectly by dropping bad phase gates while simultaneously not getting the correct upgrades for his marines. In the end, it makes the fade appear overly strong in many cases and you only have yourselves to blame.
Then again, if that guy that can "70-2 fade" can also solo 3 of your marines as a skulk in early engagaements, then you prob lost anyways.
I'm a div 1 player and I like to think I have good aim. I often go on publics and dominate with fades/shotguns.
It is also often the case that I will lose 1on1 engagements against fades who I think aren't as good as me. However, I also understand that this is down to little nano/med support and solo-rambo play. Often, if I can grab another 1 or 2 players to come with me, I bait the fade hits onto them and end up killing the fade.
I don't think individual fades are too hard to play against. I think that in a game which requires a fair bit of teamwork on marines behalf, fades are difficult because a lot of casual players are incompetent. Commanders who won't drop meds when I talk a lot on microphone giving my position and spamming Q, the "marine ball" where everyone tries to defend/attack 1 target at a time instead of pressuring multiple points at the same time, and fast PGs delaying any kind of upgrade required to fight the 7 minute fade ball really contribute to underwhelming you might feel as a marine against a fade.
Now when I say "incompetent", I don't mean to insult people, I just mean to say that those players do not have the skill to deal with fades.
Commanders don't tech right so 7 min fades kill unupgraded marines.
Commanders don't med on pressure so marines lose engagements and map presence.
Marines don't pressure early game so all the focus of the early game is defending 3-5 resource nodes which aliens are at leisure to attack with no draw back.
Marines stick in these "marine balls" which leaves large gaps in the map.
Marines can't aim.
20-23 pres marines need support from the commander. That's what medpacks and nanoshields are for. They allow you to hold your map presence and continue to pressure when ready. The commander's role is pretty vital here.
40 pres fades don't need (can't really get) support from the commander. Their engagements are for the most part decided by what they commit and how.
Marines rely on each other more than the fade relies on its teammates.
When you have "incompetent" teammates, the fades will often win.
I do realise that some "casuals" do know what they are doing. There have been times where someone will say on microphone "why is that guy going solo? lol you're gonna die" and someone else will speak up for me and say something along the lines of "To keep the aliens at bay whilst you can capture resources." and I like to think that a lot of "casual" players on the forums are those kinds of people. The intelligent and engaging ones, however I do feel that a lot of people are subject to confirmation bias when it comes to "oh but I normally win when I rush PGs" rather than actually thinking about the depths of this (rather shallow) game.
Yes solo play is bad and often ineffective, but a lot of "casuals" do not understand some basic principles in the game which often leads to the same scenario over and over again:
Fast pg.
PG on all tech points.
No pressure.
Lose RTs.
Recap RTs.
Probably lose tech points when it comes to fade.
If lucky --> exos
If normal game --> 1base turtle
I'm a div 1 player and I like to think I have good aim. I often go on publics and dominate with fades/shotguns.
It is also often the case that I will lose 1on1 engagements against fades who I think aren't as good as me. However, I also understand that this is down to little nano/med support and solo-rambo play. Often, if I can grab another 1 or 2 players to come with me, I bait the fade hits onto them and end up killing the fade.
I don't think individual fades are too hard to play against. I think that in a game which requires a fair bit of teamwork on marines behalf, fades are difficult because a lot of casual players are incompetent. Commanders who won't drop meds when I talk a lot on microphone giving my position and spamming Q, the "marine ball" where everyone tries to defend/attack 1 target at a time instead of pressuring multiple points at the same time, and fast PGs delaying any kind of upgrade required to fight the 7 minute fade ball really contribute to underwhelming you might feel as a marine against a fade.
Now when I say "incompetent", I don't mean to insult people, I just mean to say that those players do not have the skill to deal with fades.
Commanders don't tech right so 7 min fades kill unupgraded marines.
Commanders don't med on pressure so marines lose engagements and map presence.
Marines don't pressure early game so all the focus of the early game is defending 3-5 resource nodes which aliens are at leisure to attack with no draw back.
Marines stick in these "marine balls" which leaves large gaps in the map.
Marines can't aim.
20-23 pres marines need support from the commander. That's what medpacks and nanoshields are for. They allow you to hold your map presence and continue to pressure when ready. The commander's role is pretty vital here.
40 pres fades don't need (can't really get) support from the commander. Their engagements are for the most part decided by what they commit and how.
Marines rely on each other more than the fade relies on its teammates.
When you have "incompetent" teammates, the fades will often win.
I do realise that some "casuals" do know what they are doing. There have been times where someone will say on microphone "why is that guy going solo? lol you're gonna die" and someone else will speak up for me and say something along the lines of "To keep the aliens at bay whilst you can capture resources." and I like to think that a lot of "casual" players on the forums are those kinds of people. The intelligent and engaging ones, however I do feel that a lot of people are subject to confirmation bias when it comes to "oh but I normally win when I rush PGs" rather than actually thinking about the depths of this (rather shallow) game.
Yes solo play is bad and often ineffective, but a lot of "casuals" do not understand some basic principles in the game which often leads to the same scenario over and over again:
Fast pg.
PG on all tech points.
No pressure.
Lose RTs.
Recap RTs.
Probably lose tech points when it comes to fade.
If lucky --> exos
If normal game --> 1base turtle
what do you feel about affordability. a 12 man game, comms can afford to go upgrades first, but that's because they can afford to properly support their field. but double the number of medpacks required, and you've got issues getting the upgrades out while still maintaining map presence. sometimes armories are the more economical option and phase first may be the only viable option against medlocking yourself to apply pressure. I know in pugs and scrims we have one armory the entire game usually but when you've got 10 marines in need of health...
what do you feel about affordability. a 12 man game, comms can afford to go upgrades first, but that's because they can afford to properly support their field. but double the number of medpacks required, and you've got issues getting the upgrades out while still maintaining map presence. sometimes armories are the more economical option and phase first may be the only viable option against medlocking yourself to apply pressure. I know in pugs and scrims we have one armory the entire game usually but when you've got 10 marines in need of health...
That's where the skill of the commander comes in and you pick your meds appropriately as the marines should pick their fights. Sure you might want to drop an armory if it's in a position like reactor core against an Atrium hive. Also remember that double the marines mean double the firing power and map presence. You should be able to count on your marines random aim more to hit something.
I have played 24 man servers and personally, I think that a phasegate is easier to destroy and grind whilst having other skulks around the map. You can have 3 skulks grinding a A0 marine pg whilst the other 8 are scouting/ambushing further ahead. Phasegates are almost less viable in bigger servers!!
However, the game is not balanced around 24 players. I don't know exactly what the game is balanced for, but it feels much more like 12-16 players is the sweet spot.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
While I agree with you nachos, (usually do) having such requirements to follow creates
1) a narrow window for public commanders to react /step up to /learn from
2) a limited tech build /varied strategy (i wouldn't dare do anything but A2 + pg in a pub setting)
In regards to med packs, I think the commander shouldn't be such a lynch pin in public games in this one specific mechanic .. Its just asking for too much from an already demanding responsibility. How you would accomplish this without negatively impacting comp, i do not know, however.
I'm a div 1 player and I like to think I have good aim. I often go on publics and dominate with fades/shotguns.
It is also often the case that I will lose 1on1 engagements against fades who I think aren't as good as me. However, I also understand that this is down to little nano/med support and solo-rambo play. Often, if I can grab another 1 or 2 players to come with me, I bait the fade hits onto them and end up killing the fade.
I don't think individual fades are too hard to play against. I think that in a game which requires a fair bit of teamwork on marines behalf, fades are difficult because a lot of casual players are incompetent. Commanders who won't drop meds when I talk a lot on microphone giving my position and spamming Q, the "marine ball" where everyone tries to defend/attack 1 target at a time instead of pressuring multiple points at the same time, and fast PGs delaying any kind of upgrade required to fight the 7 minute fade ball really contribute to underwhelming you might feel as a marine against a fade.
Now when I say "incompetent", I don't mean to insult people, I just mean to say that those players do not have the skill to deal with fades.
Commanders don't tech right so 7 min fades kill unupgraded marines.
Commanders don't med on pressure so marines lose engagements and map presence.
Marines don't pressure early game so all the focus of the early game is defending 3-5 resource nodes which aliens are at leisure to attack with no draw back.
Marines stick in these "marine balls" which leaves large gaps in the map.
Marines can't aim.
20-23 pres marines need support from the commander. That's what medpacks and nanoshields are for. They allow you to hold your map presence and continue to pressure when ready. The commander's role is pretty vital here.
40 pres fades don't need (can't really get) support from the commander. Their engagements are for the most part decided by what they commit and how.
Marines rely on each other more than the fade relies on its teammates.
When you have "incompetent" teammates, the fades will often win.
I do realise that some "casuals" do know what they are doing. There have been times where someone will say on microphone "why is that guy going solo? lol you're gonna die" and someone else will speak up for me and say something along the lines of "To keep the aliens at bay whilst you can capture resources." and I like to think that a lot of "casual" players on the forums are those kinds of people. The intelligent and engaging ones, however I do feel that a lot of people are subject to confirmation bias when it comes to "oh but I normally win when I rush PGs" rather than actually thinking about the depths of this (rather shallow) game.
Yes solo play is bad and often ineffective, but a lot of "casuals" do not understand some basic principles in the game which often leads to the same scenario over and over again:
Fast pg.
PG on all tech points.
No pressure.
Lose RTs.
Recap RTs.
Probably lose tech points when it comes to fade.
If lucky --> exos
If normal game --> 1base turtle
The one thing I would add is how some public marines don't seem to have the teamwork or coordination they need. I almost never see marines welding each other even though your armor is roughly 1/3 to 2/3 of your health depending on your armor level, and an armorless marine is easily killed in 2 swipes from a fade. Whenever a RT is under attack either I'm the only one going to save it or 3-4 different marines are going to save it from 1 skulk and afterwards they all have a welding party on the extractor. When I started playing the game marines seemed to understand that they needed an even split out of base at the start, but now I see 4 marines running in 1 direction and 1 running in the other while 3 of them build the armory despite the fact that the commander tells them to split evenly and have only 1 person build the armory.
Hopefully most of this is just due to people getting used to the changes or newer players who don't listen. I see some of the same players on aliens never attack an RT all game and ignore marines moving through key points on the map. I complain about this because I feel like teamwork and basic coordination are far easier to learn than aiming at a fade, yet they will help public players a lot against the immortal fades.
The one thing I would add is how some public marines don't seem to have the teamwork or coordination they need. I almost never see marines welding each other even though your armor is roughly 1/3 to 2/3 of your health depending on your armor level, and an armorless marine is easily killed in 2 swipes from a fade. Whenever a RT is under attack either I'm the only one going to save it or 3-4 different marines are going to save it from 1 skulk and afterwards they all have a welding party on the extractor. When I started playing the game marines seemed to understand that they needed an even split out of base at the start, but now I see 4 marines running in 1 direction and 1 running in the other while 3 of them build the armory despite the fact that the commander tells them to split evenly and have only 1 person build the armory.
Hopefully most of this is just due to people getting used to the changes or newer players who don't listen. I see some of the same players on aliens never attack an RT all game and ignore marines moving through key points on the map. I complain about this because I feel like teamwork and basic coordination are far easier to learn than aiming at a fade, yet they will help public players a lot against the immortal fades.
Exactly. It's almost as if the ridiculous amount of sales has bred this player mind set and these players teach the new players to play similarly.
I am going to try and address a bunch of points here.
I still see fades dominating in late games when marines have A3/W3/JP/SG. It forces them to be more cautious, but it doesn't shut them down the way some are implying. It doesn't matter if you have W0 or W3 if you can't land the meatshots consistently, so the arguments about research order and such are effectively moot.
Recycling of weapons doesn't happen nearly as often in pub games as I suspect it does in comp. The time window is extremely short to recover your own weapon, and in almost every instance where I lose my weapon to a fade, they are simply waiting for me to come retrieve it. If I had a teammate, he is either dead by the time I'm able to get back, or he has retreated. If I died in a base (which means marines are on defense and probably losing), or in the middle of a massive marine ball, I might have a chance of getting my weapon back. I also make a point of trying to recycle weapons as often as possible, and sometimes I will be juggling for several minutes and repeatedly asking over voice for someone to come and retrieve it, and no one comes. And this is without even mentioning bile bomb. Basically, lack of coordination in pubs makes it difficult to take advantage of this feature except in turtle scenarios.
The argument that marines have 'won' an engagement simply by forcing a fade to retreat can be turned on its head. You typically need a minimum of 2+ marines to force said retreat, any lone marine is a dead man, so you can say that the fade has 'won' by tying up those marines and allowing his teammates to pressure. Also, any damage that the fade deals requires the marines to get med drops (t-res) or run back to an armory if they are on the offensive, which wastes more of their time. There's also welding on top of that, which is harder to get in a pub game than I think most of you are used to. On the other hand, it is trivial for the fade to regenerate and re-engage in a matter of seconds. Most of the games that I see 'won' by fades are simply by causing enough interference/harassment, either by getting kills or just being a bloody nuisance, that the rest of the alien team is able to zerg their way to victory.
As Ironhorse points out, the commander ends up being a critical factor in whether marines die or deter a fade, or possibly even get a kill if the fade gets greedy. This is exacerbated by the typically much larger match sizes in pub games, with up to a dozen people all requesting something different simultaneously, and this doesn't even address the T-Res drain of meds and nanos in order to discourage fades. Again, fades win by attrition, forcing marines to waste time and res.
On the subject of 'pinching', not only does this require more coordination than most pub marines have, it also again requires high accuracy to land those crucial hits in the very small window you have as the fade zips past at approximately mach 3. Furthermore, if the fade is playing carefully as he should, he will never put himself in a position where he has no escape route. A fade can be successful simply by running interdiction on any marines pushing into alien territory and shutting down their offense, without ever going behind enemy lines. The exception is if the entire marine team is pushing in one giant turtle squad, in which case going behind enemy lines forces them to split up and commit defenders. Fades have such a tremendous advantage in reach and maneuverability that they should never lose the positioning battle in a pub.
Most of the arguments I see actually support my position that fades are 'balanced' around a skill/coordination requirement on the marines part that simply does not exist in pub games. I brought this up in the discussion about split comp/pub rulesets, which seems like the obvious solution to me, but UWE and most of the community seem to be stuck on the idea that it's possible to design from the top down so that the game remains balanced at every skill level. That hasn't happened yet almost a year out now, and frankly I'm skeptical that it ever will, and the game has suffered as a result.
Right now the answer to the pub question is 'L2P or GTFO', which ignores that many casuals will never reach the same level of skill as comp players regardless of time spent. Based on the player retention rates, I think it's safe to say most people are choosing option 2.
While I agree with you nachos, (usually do) having such requirements to follow creates
1) a narrow window for public commanders to react /step up to /learn from
2) a limited tech build /varied strategy (i wouldn't dare do anything but A2 + pg in a pub setting)
In regards to med packs, I think the commander shouldn't be such a lynch pin in public games in this one specific mechanic .. Its just asking for too much from an already demanding responsibility. How you would accomplish this without negatively impacting comp, i do not know, however.
im not saying their a lynchhpin now, im saying that they are a lynchpin in the upgrade heavy competitive play as I understand it. phosphates do go down easie, but you should have more warning and defense on 24 man.
I am going to try and address a bunch of points here.
I still see fades dominating in late games when marines have A3/W3/JP/SG. It forces them to be more cautious, but it doesn't shut them down the way some are implying. It doesn't matter if you have W0 or W3 if you can't land the meatshots consistently, so the arguments about research order and such are effectively moot.
Recycling of weapons doesn't happen nearly as often in pub games as I suspect it does in comp. The time window is extremely short to recover your own weapon, and in almost every instance where I lose my weapon to a fade, they are simply waiting for me to come retrieve it. If I had a teammate, he is either dead by the time I'm able to get back, or he has retreated. If I died in a base (which means marines are on defense and probably losing), or in the middle of a massive marine ball, I might have a chance of getting my weapon back. I also make a point of trying to recycle weapons as often as possible, and sometimes I will be juggling for several minutes and repeatedly asking over voice for someone to come and retrieve it, and no one comes. And this is without even mentioning bile bomb. Basically, lack of coordination in pubs makes it difficult to take advantage of this feature except in turtle scenarios.
The argument that marines have 'won' an engagement simply by forcing a fade to retreat can be turned on its head. You typically need a minimum of 2+ marines to force said retreat, any lone marine is a dead man, so you can say that the fade has 'won' by tying up those marines and allowing his teammates to pressure. Also, any damage that the fade deals requires the marines to get med drops (t-res) or run back to an armory if they are on the offensive, which wastes more of their time. There's also welding on top of that, which is harder to get in a pub game than I think most of you are used to. On the other hand, it is trivial for the fade to regenerate and re-engage in a matter of seconds. Most of the games that I see 'won' by fades are simply by causing enough interference/harassment, either by getting kills or just being a bloody nuisance, that the rest of the alien team is able to zerg their way to victory.
As Ironhorse points out, the commander ends up being a critical factor in whether marines die or deter a fade, or possibly even get a kill if the fade gets greedy. This is exacerbated by the typically much larger match sizes in pub games, with up to a dozen people all requesting something different simultaneously, and this doesn't even address the T-Res drain of meds and nanos in order to discourage fades. Again, fades win by attrition, forcing marines to waste time and res.
On the subject of 'pinching', not only does this require more coordination than most pub marines have, it also again requires high accuracy to land those crucial hits in the very small window you have as the fade zips past at approximately mach 3. Furthermore, if the fade is playing carefully as he should, he will never put himself in a position where he has no escape route. A fade can be successful simply by running interdiction on any marines pushing into alien territory and shutting down their offense, without ever going behind enemy lines. The exception is if the entire marine team is pushing in one giant turtle squad, in which case going behind enemy lines forces them to split up and commit defenders. Fades have such a tremendous advantage in reach and maneuverability that they should never lose the positioning battle in a pub.
Most of the arguments I see actually support my position that fades are 'balanced' around a skill/coordination requirement on the marines part that simply does not exist in pub games. I brought this up in the discussion about split comp/pub rulesets, which seems like the obvious solution to me, but UWE and most of the community seem to be stuck on the idea that it's possible to design from the top down so that the game remains balanced at every skill level. That hasn't happened yet almost a year out now, and frankly I'm skeptical that it ever will, and the game has suffered as a result.
Right now the answer to the pub question is 'L2P or GTFO', which ignores that many casuals will never reach the same level of skill as comp players regardless of time spent. Based on the player retention rates, I think it's safe to say most people are choosing option 2.
in a game the other day we lost a big engagement, around a phase but pushed the fades away. I responses and recycled 4 different shotgun... saved them all. so yes, definitely different. and when we talk about pushing fades away, we're not talking about pushing them out of some random area. we're talking about pushing them out on base or phase gate defense... pushing them out of nano so that you can get some economic harassment done. fades are never tying up marines, it's the opposite. if fades can't get the job done, and get enough economic harassment in, then jp and exos come out, and hives get arcced.
the game seems to.have various win windows in general. early game marines are in a good position, and need to hit res to delay fade explosion, mid, fades need to crush marine positions and get back map control, to prevent endgame marine tech from overwhelming them. onos really isn't worth very much, and jetpacks are op.
Random point: Marine Commanders should be able to see whether or not player has a welder. This would encourage using welders, since I would MUCH rather medpack a pair of marines with welders than without.
A team of 3 marines with shotguns and armor 1+ can be very effective, but not if they get picked apart slowly by a Fade two-shotting them.
I am going to try and address a bunch of points here.
I still see fades dominating in late games when marines have A3/W3/JP/SG. It forces them to be more cautious, but it doesn't shut them down the way some are implying. It doesn't matter if you have W0 or W3 if you can't land the meatshots consistently, so the arguments about research order and such are effectively moot.
Recycling of weapons doesn't happen nearly as often in pub games as I suspect it does in comp. The time window is extremely short to recover your own weapon, and in almost every instance where I lose my weapon to a fade, they are simply waiting for me to come retrieve it. If I had a teammate, he is either dead by the time I'm able to get back, or he has retreated. If I died in a base (which means marines are on defense and probably losing), or in the middle of a massive marine ball, I might have a chance of getting my weapon back. I also make a point of trying to recycle weapons as often as possible, and sometimes I will be juggling for several minutes and repeatedly asking over voice for someone to come and retrieve it, and no one comes. And this is without even mentioning bile bomb. Basically, lack of coordination in pubs makes it difficult to take advantage of this feature except in turtle scenarios.
The argument that marines have 'won' an engagement simply by forcing a fade to retreat can be turned on its head. You typically need a minimum of 2+ marines to force said retreat, any lone marine is a dead man, so you can say that the fade has 'won' by tying up those marines and allowing his teammates to pressure. Also, any damage that the fade deals requires the marines to get med drops (t-res) or run back to an armory if they are on the offensive, which wastes more of their time. There's also welding on top of that, which is harder to get in a pub game than I think most of you are used to. On the other hand, it is trivial for the fade to regenerate and re-engage in a matter of seconds. Most of the games that I see 'won' by fades are simply by causing enough interference/harassment, either by getting kills or just being a bloody nuisance, that the rest of the alien team is able to zerg their way to victory.
As Ironhorse points out, the commander ends up being a critical factor in whether marines die or deter a fade, or possibly even get a kill if the fade gets greedy. This is exacerbated by the typically much larger match sizes in pub games, with up to a dozen people all requesting something different simultaneously, and this doesn't even address the T-Res drain of meds and nanos in order to discourage fades. Again, fades win by attrition, forcing marines to waste time and res.
On the subject of 'pinching', not only does this require more coordination than most pub marines have, it also again requires high accuracy to land those crucial hits in the very small window you have as the fade zips past at approximately mach 3. Furthermore, if the fade is playing carefully as he should, he will never put himself in a position where he has no escape route. A fade can be successful simply by running interdiction on any marines pushing into alien territory and shutting down their offense, without ever going behind enemy lines. The exception is if the entire marine team is pushing in one giant turtle squad, in which case going behind enemy lines forces them to split up and commit defenders. Fades have such a tremendous advantage in reach and maneuverability that they should never lose the positioning battle in a pub.
Most of the arguments I see actually support my position that fades are 'balanced' around a skill/coordination requirement on the marines part that simply does not exist in pub games. I brought this up in the discussion about split comp/pub rulesets, which seems like the obvious solution to me, but UWE and most of the community seem to be stuck on the idea that it's possible to design from the top down so that the game remains balanced at every skill level. That hasn't happened yet almost a year out now, and frankly I'm skeptical that it ever will, and the game has suffered as a result.
Right now the answer to the pub question is 'L2P or GTFO', which ignores that many casuals will never reach the same level of skill as comp players regardless of time spent. Based on the player retention rates, I think it's safe to say most people are choosing option 2.
I don't even know where to begin to start disagreeing with almost everything in this post lol. Your anecdotal perceptions are rather entertaining tho.
I have almost 1000 hours into NS2, and I'm pretty decent. I am usually the top scorer on my team, pretty much always in the top 3 at least. I typically get something like a 3:1 KD, and on a good day I might do 5:1 or better. So I'm somewhere in the 70-80th percentile, and I cannot consistently stop good fades, players who are at roughly my same skill level in all other aspects of the game. Given the diminishing returns of skill gain from time played, how many more thousands of hours should I put in before I can expect even odds?
The somewhat harsh truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how many hours you put into the game if your hours are not for the direct purpose of improving by playing against better players; competition level players. You will only raise your skill level in an environment that demands you to do so. Irrelevant maybe, and Perhaps in this group of posters I am alone in the sentiment that the new fade movement mechanics are less fun to play with. I enjoyed being nimble as opposed to being outright fast. I know others that feel the same and could only imagine that "nerfing" fades based on movement and viability would only hurt the experience of the game for some percentage of players new and vet.
ah and to Colt. Hell Yeah, Huntin' me some fade is just good fun. In pubs without support it usually gets me killed but when I get to take someones precious fade away in two shots and know they just punched their keyboard, I have a special smirk on my face.
I wouldn't mind shadow step working the way it used to and keeping the current blink first + mechanics and dropping fade hp down some again, that would provide a sort of preferred movement technique diversity ( I like to blink... I like to SS... Yay we're different! ). Blink was an ENTICING reward for actually acquiring new territory, but that starts another topic lol.
I Acknowledge that I've always rather enjoyed playing games where I could beat the majority soundly because I worked hard to get better at what I do, so my opinion might float in the vicinity of favor toward games that allow and represent the vast differences between skilled and unskilled players.
Probably the worst thing for ns2s fragile and waning community is to make huge changes all at once, and doing anything to lower the skill ceiling &/or distinction, nullifying the hard work the top percentile of players who are also incidentally the highest contributing members to the community. Examples: Videos, promotions, tournaments, guides, FORUM DISCUSSIONS.
Those top players are the ones that helped build the game, and I can go down my friends list and check off far too many people that have stopped playing in the last two months. Entire teams that have fallen apart because their players quit the game.
These people are like the bees people! When the last one goes, the rest of us are soon to follow lol.
You wouldn't ask the world to shorten and enlarge all basketball hoops so we can all dunk like Mike!
The answer is not to homogenize all classes and player ability... That's how you kill what's left of a struggling game. To reiterate If you continuously shock the community without giving it enough time to adapt AND recover, you kill it. Same goes for any real world analogue social structure.
My shit got a little ranty rant there, but it needed to be said, the casual experience of this game only exists because of those that constantly involve themselves in this game, those people that take it somewhat more seriously. You can't say that the things discussed in this thread must remain only in the context of pub play.
Your entire point can be summed up to "because the fades are careful, skillful and don't set themselves up for pinching and the marines can't aim, work in a team or arrange ambushes, the fade is OP".
On the subject of 'pinching', not only does this require more coordination than most pub marines have, it also again requires high accuracy to land those crucial hits
Comments
I'm not disagreeing with you. I've played enough of both those games to know top level ns2 is not best of the best in terms of aim... Maybe I just simply misread your previous comment.
Fair to say, but what alternative do you propose? As I said, I'd love to see the sponitor data on fades, and I think it's pretty bananas that the community still has no interface to it.
Shall we start another thread calling for screenshots of scoreboards so we can start compiling data?
Your perspective is appreciated, and I would urge you consider that in terms of balance, a 20res Shotgun should not be able to stand 1v1 with a great fade sinked at 40(+5/upg) pres.
Now, what I was saying is that the shotgun can counteract the fade. Not "beat" the fade, but provide enough danger to fend it off indefinitely/provide enough threat to keep it away/kill it if it commits.
It isn't a linear argument, and I don't intend to make it sound that way.
Two or three shotguns is the equal PRES sink to a single fade, and 2-3 shotguns one-shots a fade if they can land the shots. The fade has to expose itself to land a hit, long enough for a centered shot. If one shotgunner who is 'great' can fend off the fade with one warding shot, surely 2-3 mediocre shotguns and a great shotgun can kill the fade.
Just some thoughts for consideration as your argument seemed to be based on my assertions as a linear-type argument that 1 Shotgun = 1 Fade; it isn't intended to be this way, nor should it be seen that way. I'm just saying as a shotgunner, for 20 res, I can hold off and/or severely injure a 40-55 pres Fade indefinitely... doesn't sound terribly imbalanced to me.
Add a couple half-missing 20 res shotguns with me, and it's a dead fade, in most games (And/or more likely if it's a great fade, it's just an ineffective fade who can't engage without dying).
A few more cents in response to your sense.
-Colt
There is no clear counter for what they do. If the flame thrower drained energy faster, that could be a way(except it would unbalance it vs other Aliens), or if the Fade was unable to blink while on fire, that could be another solution. Every other unit in the game has a clear anti unit, that doesn't exist for the Fade.
one of the issues as I see it is player count. medding effectively without gimping yourself for a 6 man team is very different from medding effectively for12 man team. it might be truly cost prohibitive to use the same tactic in a pub as a competitive match simply due to numbers. phase first may be the right build for 20 man servers regardless of skill.
also, a shotgun welder cost you 23 res, and you sometimes don't even lose that when losing to a good fade. in a sense, you've got multiple lives to throw away taking on a fade, without necessarily losing anything other than time. fade has one life.
your understanding is flawed. pres wise a fade is equal to.two shotguns, and marine lives are cheap.and shotguns are recyclable. a great shotgunner may be great without killing a fade 1v1 in 50 percent of their encounters. since hes got at least two shotguns to work with. a shotgun and a fade might be equivalent in skillif he can kill the fade in 1 of 10 encounters and push him out from all the rest. marines are meant to die, skulks are meant to die... at this point onos are meant to die, but fades should survive. the only real way to compare skill like you want to, is during a hive push. a good shotgunner and his buddies vs a defending fade and his. two.sides of equal skill will save the hive or lose the hive in equal measure.
the chance that someone's aim improves beyond a certain point, is close to 0
yeah, at a certain point it comes down to positioning and familiarity. that being said, my aim still has a lot of room.for growth.
"The old fade was changed for a reason..." - apparently, didn't work. 65% Alien win in comp ... that's 10% absolute difference in balance terms, not good.
Apparently someone hasn't read the entire thread. Purely looking at the comp side, an individual fade is not all that strong once SG's come out. The ball is the problem. The majority of this thread is about the public fade anyway, which the changes did help out.
Why must we always talk in circles.
._.
its been said before and people are getting off track by "skill floor" "skill ceiling". Its the timing of the appearance of multiple fades. That's it. That's the problem. A pub game can't handle 3+ fades all at the same time. the Fade isn't OP but FadeS are.
Up the damage on a shotgun. Then increase the biomass buffs for the lower lifeforms on a type of exponential decay model.
So in public servers, multiple fades are a major headache because there often isn't the aim and/or the teamwork on marines to deal with it. Likewise, in some comp games, the fade ball IS dominating, and if aliens can hold on until 4 or 5 fades popping at the same time, and are all good enough not to lose them, or have sufficient map domination to be able to replace them, then they can stomp. However, good shotgunners really can destroy good fades, even in fade balls, provided there is equivalent teamwork on the marines (the fade ball requires teamwork, too). The trouble is this doesn't often happen in pubs but increasingly happens in comp games. This will make balancing difficult.
Increasingly, the way marine teams deal with fades is to make the most of early expansion and securing map control, limiting alien res as far as possible to delay while teching up to a2 + w1/2, and then turtling HARD. This mid-game ultra-defensive play is to maintain as much pres as possible through recycling shotguns, and means that fades have to take the huge risk of attacking marine phase positions/bases. It seems to be a reasonable way to finish teching, then you can keep a good strong defence while sending a couple of guys probing for a forward phase position to launch an attack from, which is still then safely near the phase for maintaining base defence. Unless aliens have the upper hand already, it's very difficult to break such a turtle, as marines will slowly be able to tech up while specifically trying to kill lifeforms during this extended period of play. Unless aliens can break it, they WILL be up against 3/3 marines with jp/sg and maybe an exo or two, and that's basically GG against a competent marine team.
So what's the upshot of this? Increase shotgun damage, and you're going to totally screw fades over in comp games, and you'll screw other alien lifeforms and structures over in ALL games. One option might be to weaken the marine turtle strategy by increasing research time on level 2 and 3 upgrades (but not level 1), but this would have to go hand in hand with some way of stopping teams putting 5 fades on the field at the same time. Dynamic pricing, while horrible from a hidden modifier perspective, would probably fix the issue, but there have been other suggestions in the beta test mod thread that probably warrant testing. Lack of onos viability is exacerbating the problem at the minute, I think.
TL;DR:
I think this is an issue at all levels of play, for different reasons. Balancing will not be trivial. It's not necessarily a fade OP issue.
If the fade must be nerfed, I would be in favor of a speed drop off after every jump, to limit it's mobility or force it to enter into combat with less energy. Anything other than that would be too drastic.
Then again, if that guy that can "70-2 fade" can also solo 3 of your marines as a skulk in early engagaements, then you prob lost anyways.
It is also often the case that I will lose 1on1 engagements against fades who I think aren't as good as me. However, I also understand that this is down to little nano/med support and solo-rambo play. Often, if I can grab another 1 or 2 players to come with me, I bait the fade hits onto them and end up killing the fade.
I don't think individual fades are too hard to play against. I think that in a game which requires a fair bit of teamwork on marines behalf, fades are difficult because a lot of casual players are incompetent. Commanders who won't drop meds when I talk a lot on microphone giving my position and spamming Q, the "marine ball" where everyone tries to defend/attack 1 target at a time instead of pressuring multiple points at the same time, and fast PGs delaying any kind of upgrade required to fight the 7 minute fade ball really contribute to underwhelming you might feel as a marine against a fade.
Now when I say "incompetent", I don't mean to insult people, I just mean to say that those players do not have the skill to deal with fades.
Commanders don't tech right so 7 min fades kill unupgraded marines.
Commanders don't med on pressure so marines lose engagements and map presence.
Marines don't pressure early game so all the focus of the early game is defending 3-5 resource nodes which aliens are at leisure to attack with no draw back.
Marines stick in these "marine balls" which leaves large gaps in the map.
Marines can't aim.
20-23 pres marines need support from the commander. That's what medpacks and nanoshields are for. They allow you to hold your map presence and continue to pressure when ready. The commander's role is pretty vital here.
40 pres fades don't need (can't really get) support from the commander. Their engagements are for the most part decided by what they commit and how.
Marines rely on each other more than the fade relies on its teammates.
When you have "incompetent" teammates, the fades will often win.
I do realise that some "casuals" do know what they are doing. There have been times where someone will say on microphone "why is that guy going solo? lol you're gonna die" and someone else will speak up for me and say something along the lines of "To keep the aliens at bay whilst you can capture resources." and I like to think that a lot of "casual" players on the forums are those kinds of people. The intelligent and engaging ones, however I do feel that a lot of people are subject to confirmation bias when it comes to "oh but I normally win when I rush PGs" rather than actually thinking about the depths of this (rather shallow) game.
Yes solo play is bad and often ineffective, but a lot of "casuals" do not understand some basic principles in the game which often leads to the same scenario over and over again:
Fast pg.
PG on all tech points.
No pressure.
Lose RTs.
Recap RTs.
Probably lose tech points when it comes to fade.
If lucky --> exos
If normal game --> 1base turtle
what do you feel about affordability. a 12 man game, comms can afford to go upgrades first, but that's because they can afford to properly support their field. but double the number of medpacks required, and you've got issues getting the upgrades out while still maintaining map presence. sometimes armories are the more economical option and phase first may be the only viable option against medlocking yourself to apply pressure. I know in pugs and scrims we have one armory the entire game usually but when you've got 10 marines in need of health...
That's where the skill of the commander comes in and you pick your meds appropriately as the marines should pick their fights. Sure you might want to drop an armory if it's in a position like reactor core against an Atrium hive. Also remember that double the marines mean double the firing power and map presence. You should be able to count on your marines random aim more to hit something.
I have played 24 man servers and personally, I think that a phasegate is easier to destroy and grind whilst having other skulks around the map. You can have 3 skulks grinding a A0 marine pg whilst the other 8 are scouting/ambushing further ahead. Phasegates are almost less viable in bigger servers!!
However, the game is not balanced around 24 players. I don't know exactly what the game is balanced for, but it feels much more like 12-16 players is the sweet spot.
1) a narrow window for public commanders to react /step up to /learn from
2) a limited tech build /varied strategy (i wouldn't dare do anything but A2 + pg in a pub setting)
In regards to med packs, I think the commander shouldn't be such a lynch pin in public games in this one specific mechanic .. Its just asking for too much from an already demanding responsibility. How you would accomplish this without negatively impacting comp, i do not know, however.
http://fr.twitch.tv/ns2fr/c/2763408
The one thing I would add is how some public marines don't seem to have the teamwork or coordination they need. I almost never see marines welding each other even though your armor is roughly 1/3 to 2/3 of your health depending on your armor level, and an armorless marine is easily killed in 2 swipes from a fade. Whenever a RT is under attack either I'm the only one going to save it or 3-4 different marines are going to save it from 1 skulk and afterwards they all have a welding party on the extractor. When I started playing the game marines seemed to understand that they needed an even split out of base at the start, but now I see 4 marines running in 1 direction and 1 running in the other while 3 of them build the armory despite the fact that the commander tells them to split evenly and have only 1 person build the armory.
Hopefully most of this is just due to people getting used to the changes or newer players who don't listen. I see some of the same players on aliens never attack an RT all game and ignore marines moving through key points on the map. I complain about this because I feel like teamwork and basic coordination are far easier to learn than aiming at a fade, yet they will help public players a lot against the immortal fades.
Exactly. It's almost as if the ridiculous amount of sales has bred this player mind set and these players teach the new players to play similarly.
I still see fades dominating in late games when marines have A3/W3/JP/SG. It forces them to be more cautious, but it doesn't shut them down the way some are implying. It doesn't matter if you have W0 or W3 if you can't land the meatshots consistently, so the arguments about research order and such are effectively moot.
Recycling of weapons doesn't happen nearly as often in pub games as I suspect it does in comp. The time window is extremely short to recover your own weapon, and in almost every instance where I lose my weapon to a fade, they are simply waiting for me to come retrieve it. If I had a teammate, he is either dead by the time I'm able to get back, or he has retreated. If I died in a base (which means marines are on defense and probably losing), or in the middle of a massive marine ball, I might have a chance of getting my weapon back. I also make a point of trying to recycle weapons as often as possible, and sometimes I will be juggling for several minutes and repeatedly asking over voice for someone to come and retrieve it, and no one comes. And this is without even mentioning bile bomb. Basically, lack of coordination in pubs makes it difficult to take advantage of this feature except in turtle scenarios.
The argument that marines have 'won' an engagement simply by forcing a fade to retreat can be turned on its head. You typically need a minimum of 2+ marines to force said retreat, any lone marine is a dead man, so you can say that the fade has 'won' by tying up those marines and allowing his teammates to pressure. Also, any damage that the fade deals requires the marines to get med drops (t-res) or run back to an armory if they are on the offensive, which wastes more of their time. There's also welding on top of that, which is harder to get in a pub game than I think most of you are used to. On the other hand, it is trivial for the fade to regenerate and re-engage in a matter of seconds. Most of the games that I see 'won' by fades are simply by causing enough interference/harassment, either by getting kills or just being a bloody nuisance, that the rest of the alien team is able to zerg their way to victory.
As Ironhorse points out, the commander ends up being a critical factor in whether marines die or deter a fade, or possibly even get a kill if the fade gets greedy. This is exacerbated by the typically much larger match sizes in pub games, with up to a dozen people all requesting something different simultaneously, and this doesn't even address the T-Res drain of meds and nanos in order to discourage fades. Again, fades win by attrition, forcing marines to waste time and res.
On the subject of 'pinching', not only does this require more coordination than most pub marines have, it also again requires high accuracy to land those crucial hits in the very small window you have as the fade zips past at approximately mach 3. Furthermore, if the fade is playing carefully as he should, he will never put himself in a position where he has no escape route. A fade can be successful simply by running interdiction on any marines pushing into alien territory and shutting down their offense, without ever going behind enemy lines. The exception is if the entire marine team is pushing in one giant turtle squad, in which case going behind enemy lines forces them to split up and commit defenders. Fades have such a tremendous advantage in reach and maneuverability that they should never lose the positioning battle in a pub.
Most of the arguments I see actually support my position that fades are 'balanced' around a skill/coordination requirement on the marines part that simply does not exist in pub games. I brought this up in the discussion about split comp/pub rulesets, which seems like the obvious solution to me, but UWE and most of the community seem to be stuck on the idea that it's possible to design from the top down so that the game remains balanced at every skill level. That hasn't happened yet almost a year out now, and frankly I'm skeptical that it ever will, and the game has suffered as a result.
Right now the answer to the pub question is 'L2P or GTFO', which ignores that many casuals will never reach the same level of skill as comp players regardless of time spent. Based on the player retention rates, I think it's safe to say most people are choosing option 2.
im not saying their a lynchhpin now, im saying that they are a lynchpin in the upgrade heavy competitive play as I understand it. phosphates do go down easie, but you should have more warning and defense on 24 man.
in a game the other day we lost a big engagement, around a phase but pushed the fades away. I responses and recycled 4 different shotgun... saved them all. so yes, definitely different. and when we talk about pushing fades away, we're not talking about pushing them out of some random area. we're talking about pushing them out on base or phase gate defense... pushing them out of nano so that you can get some economic harassment done. fades are never tying up marines, it's the opposite. if fades can't get the job done, and get enough economic harassment in, then jp and exos come out, and hives get arcced.
the game seems to.have various win windows in general. early game marines are in a good position, and need to hit res to delay fade explosion, mid, fades need to crush marine positions and get back map control, to prevent endgame marine tech from overwhelming them. onos really isn't worth very much, and jetpacks are op.
A team of 3 marines with shotguns and armor 1+ can be very effective, but not if they get picked apart slowly by a Fade two-shotting them.
I don't even know where to begin to start disagreeing with almost everything in this post lol. Your anecdotal perceptions are rather entertaining tho.
The somewhat harsh truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how many hours you put into the game if your hours are not for the direct purpose of improving by playing against better players; competition level players. You will only raise your skill level in an environment that demands you to do so. Irrelevant maybe, and Perhaps in this group of posters I am alone in the sentiment that the new fade movement mechanics are less fun to play with. I enjoyed being nimble as opposed to being outright fast. I know others that feel the same and could only imagine that "nerfing" fades based on movement and viability would only hurt the experience of the game for some percentage of players new and vet.
ah and to Colt. Hell Yeah, Huntin' me some fade is just good fun. In pubs without support it usually gets me killed but when I get to take someones precious fade away in two shots and know they just punched their keyboard, I have a special smirk on my face.
I wouldn't mind shadow step working the way it used to and keeping the current blink first + mechanics and dropping fade hp down some again, that would provide a sort of preferred movement technique diversity ( I like to blink... I like to SS... Yay we're different! ). Blink was an ENTICING reward for actually acquiring new territory, but that starts another topic lol.
I Acknowledge that I've always rather enjoyed playing games where I could beat the majority soundly because I worked hard to get better at what I do, so my opinion might float in the vicinity of favor toward games that allow and represent the vast differences between skilled and unskilled players.
Probably the worst thing for ns2s fragile and waning community is to make huge changes all at once, and doing anything to lower the skill ceiling &/or distinction, nullifying the hard work the top percentile of players who are also incidentally the highest contributing members to the community. Examples: Videos, promotions, tournaments, guides, FORUM DISCUSSIONS.
Those top players are the ones that helped build the game, and I can go down my friends list and check off far too many people that have stopped playing in the last two months. Entire teams that have fallen apart because their players quit the game.
These people are like the bees people! When the last one goes, the rest of us are soon to follow lol.
You wouldn't ask the world to shorten and enlarge all basketball hoops so we can all dunk like Mike!
The answer is not to homogenize all classes and player ability... That's how you kill what's left of a struggling game. To reiterate If you continuously shock the community without giving it enough time to adapt AND recover, you kill it. Same goes for any real world analogue social structure.
My shit got a little ranty rant there, but it needed to be said, the casual experience of this game only exists because of those that constantly involve themselves in this game, those people that take it somewhat more seriously. You can't say that the things discussed in this thread must remain only in the context of pub play.
Your entire point can be summed up to "because the fades are careful, skillful and don't set themselves up for pinching and the marines can't aim, work in a team or arrange ambushes, the fade is OP".
You're seriously saying things like
and
in subsequent sentences, and expecting us to see a balance issue instead of a biased opinion based on anecdotal evidence?