SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
I propose a compromise: the marine gets 2 jumps at current height/speed. If he can't kill the skulk in the time, his boots get extra heavy for 2-3 secs.
@Okxyd So what you want there to be no collision if a skulk flys into a marine? What a stupid idea...
Now marines may be a too high acceleration but strafe jumping isn't the issue and its been in the game and other games for a long time. Fix the acceleration if you think it's OP but keep the marines one and only chance to maybe survive close combat encounters.t
Where did I say that I want a "no collide" system ? The fact that you lose ALL of your speed when you collide a Marines who jumps in the same direction as you is frustrating as hell and incoherent, considering the game is half based on melee it should be far more flexible and not make you feel like a little ball crashing in an irremovable rock.
@Okxyd well it's kind of hard to understand what exactly you mean... From my perspective if I ran into some one running at a much slower speed the me, I'd loose much if not all my momentum as well. In addition that momentum would be transferred to the object I ran into, essentially increasing the speed of the marine in the direction both of you were traveling. Physics. You can't just run into something and expect to bounce off the object such as being made out of a perfectly elastic material... Sorry if my engineering degree came out a bit too much in this post :P
@Okxyd well it's kind of hard to understand what exactly you mean... From my perspective if I ran into some one running at a much slower speed the me, I'd loose much if not all my momentum as well. In addition that momentum would be transferred to the object I ran into, essentially increasing the speed of the marine in the direction both of you were traveling. Physics. You can't just run into something and expect to bounce off the object such as being made out of a perfectly elastic material... Sorry if my engineering degree came out a bit too much in this post :P
Well, what happens during similar real world collisions is this - the wild animal collides with its prey, losing much of its momentum that of course does not disappear, it causes said prey to be knocked of its feet, possibly stunned and disoriented, while the animal proceeds with tearing its immobilized prey to pieces. Just check out some videos on hunting tigers, wolves and such.
@Okxyd well it's kind of hard to understand what exactly you mean... From my perspective if I ran into some one running at a much slower speed the me, I'd loose much if not all my momentum as well. In addition that momentum would be transferred to the object I ran into, essentially increasing the speed of the marine in the direction both of you were traveling. Physics. You can't just run into something and expect to bounce off the object such as being made out of a perfectly elastic material... Sorry if my engineering degree came out a bit too much in this post :P
Well, what happens during similar real world collisions is this - the wild animal collides with its prey, losing much of its momentum that of course does not disappear, it causes said prey to be knocked of its feet, possibly stunned and disoriented, while the animal proceeds with tearing its immobilized prey to pieces. Just check out some videos on hunting tigers, wolves and such.
That is what I would say, thank you. However I'm not saying that we need a change about it for "realistic" reasons, just for making the gameplay smoother as skulk and making the fight less "kangooroo power" based.
The 'midair collision with marine' issue is a pretty annoying one in that it's a huge trap for new skulks who typically instinctively jump when in close combat, the only real solution would be to give skulks some way to more quickly accelerate from a standstill but without giving them insane twitchy dodging skills or 'mini leap' jumping power like they had in some old builds, which isn't a trivial issue to solve. I'd love some kind of boostjump mechanic to help with this as well as to make it easier to start walljump chains but I think that it would probably be considered too much of a nod to quake-style bunnyhopping. I guess the answer to all this shit is leap but it's not really the same thing and it isn't part of the early game.
but strafe jumping isn't the issue and its been in the game and other games for a long time.
Strafe jump has been buffed recently though, you get a speed boost if you do it right - your marine will make a little grunt sound.
I'm finding that if a skulk makes one wrong jump in combat, i.e turns in mid air and loses all it's speed, thats it. Dead skulk. The marines speed is just too much for the skulk to be able to close the distance before dieing.
Where did I say that I want a "no collide" system ? The fact that you lose ALL of your speed when you collide a Marines who jumps in the same direction as you is frustrating as hell and incoherent, considering the game is half based on melee it should be far more flexible and not make you feel like a little ball crashing in an irremovable rock.
I would LOVE to try a version of the game where the Skulk's momentum is partially transferred to the Marine, effectively pushing him back. Besides realism (which is not an argument on its own), this could be awesome for immersion from the Marine's point of view. Effectively, this would give Skulks a "mass" that can be "felt" in combat. Of course, balance would need to be adjusted for this. Maybe reintroduce the rifle alt-fire knockback? Or transfer some of the bullets' momentum on impact?
It would be interesting to apply that model to the Onos, too. I now have the mental image of an Onos plowing forward with several marines on its "radiator grill"... ^^
@Side1Bu2Rnz9 In other games?? Really?? This is the worst defence of any game mechanic. NS2 is fundamentaly different from every other game... If we were playing MvM sure let the times hope around each other all day, but this is MvA!
Why do skulks need to link wall hops to achieve max speed and rines hit max speed in an instant... Maybe rines should need to link jumps(build momentum) this way if you see them coming you can start hopping, but when u get ambushed you'll need to survive 1-3 hops to get max agility.
I would LOVE to try a version of the game where the Skulk's momentum is partially transferred to the Marine, effectively pushing him back. Besides realism (which is not an argument on its own), this could be awesome for immersion from the Marine's point of view.
This was actually tried in beta and was terrible. When a marine was jumping in the right moment, he got catapulted out of melee range from the skulk. Effectively nerfing the skulk to the ground.
I don't know what would happen when this would be reintroduced but with a lower speed so he doesn't fling out of melee rang by the impact.
I think we should wait atleast a month before we start spouting statistics of winrates as "proof" of a need of a buff or nerf. It's been my experience that all the games I've played during and after the patch/weekend have been mostly decided on who is the better commander and how many of the players know how to use the map. So let's just throw this nonsense "proof" in the garbage where it belongs.
Personally, I don't find the marine hopping OP in any way, sure it's annoying and I've died a lot 1v1 against an "MLG pr0 pin0y" player but I've still been tweaking my mouse sensitivity and I've attributed my shortcommings against personal mistakes in combat and over/under-correcting myself while "dancing".
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I have mixed feelings with the current marine movement implemenation.
It feels right and wrong depend on situation.
You can get insane speed with jumping down hallways. This feels buggy (like the downward blink bug) and look like an marine on spastic gait and should be fixed asap.
In close fight it feels ok, need some tweaking for sure, but its ok.
The skill of the skulk count and its very easy to jump away from "holy ground skulks" now.
But im sure it was the same pre 253/254 builds and we have many rookies playing these days.
I hope UWE (sewlek) isnt trying to implement a "skill-movement" for marines.
This would end in horrible real bunny hopping marines.
Bunnyhop itself fit into games like: Quake, UT,.. not in games like CS, NS2, BF3.
From the point of view of immersiveness - ie., what "should" happen when you perform a certain action - there a bunch of things that happen in NS2 that seem to defy the laws of physics. Air control is a perfect example. When anything without wings or jets jumps in the air, how does it have any capacity to alter its direction? Changing your perspective I can understand, but translating your point in space while you're in the air doesn't track for me. So - strafe jumping shouldn't be allowed for any species, just on that point alone.
To extend this point for the fairness of marine-skulk melees - I think there should be a bit more of a jump penalty against marines. That they need to wait a slightly longer time before being able to do a full-height jump again.
I'm definitely an advocate for giving marines the capacity to dodge an attack, when timed right at least. But I think the issue here is the frequency of dodging, rather than the dodge itself. Say, for instance, there was a fixed cooldown specifically for making strafejumps, that could probably alleviate some of the issues people are complaining about, without having to totally nerf the strafejump dodge in itself.
Say, for instance, there was a fixed cooldown specifically for making strafejumps, that could probably alleviate some of the issues people are complaining about, without having to totally nerf the strafejump dodge in itself.
While I was playing on the BT server talking to Sewlek, I did a few tests and asked a few questions. To super jump, one must hold A/D and jump at proper timing. This jump can get up to 7.8 movement speed, but I was getting around 6.5-7 average. Default Skulk speed being 7. There is a .8 delay between the super jumps built in.
I know there currently is a cooldown for the new "super dodge", but you can still do regular strafejumps to great effect at quite a high frequency. What I'm suggesting is to build in a cooldown for strafejumping in general. It'll also teach newer players not to spam jump mindlessly, and force them to time their jumps more carefully.
Any good skulk won't: engage a marine alone without getting ambush or CQ instantly on him. The bad skulks can hop in a straight line towards marines are going to be the ones complaining here while the marine hops away. The only problem is the difference between a vanilla skulk and a vanilla marine but comms should be picking up either cel or cara very early in the game anyway that the side hop vs a good skulk is almost a non-issue.
@RadimaX Playing on a 32 player server on a sale weekend isn't the same as an actual server and vs better players. I still wipe the floor vs newbie - average marines ESPECIALLY with upgrades but vs any decent marine player, I my ass handed to me. Those skulks hold LMB down and walk in a circle hoping for a lucky bite. That's not even close to an average and frequent pubber.
Will have to wait at minimum a few weeks to see if this is actually an issue in balance.
@RaZDaz disagrea... New jump mechanic is a marine buff against skilled skulks not against bad skulks. The strait line skulks you describe will be dead long before the marine will need to jump. However your skilled skulk who can close the distance(via reload timing, ambush ect) are now having a harder time pushing the fight and keeping it close.
Also bad rines don't use the mechanic or aim well enough for it to be an issue.
The reason i dislike this mechanic is because it hurts the good skulk and helps the good marine. And I felt that the good marine already had the advantage against the good skulk...
The reason i dislike this mechanic is because it hurts the good skulk and helps the good marine. And I felt that the good marine already had the advantage against the good skulk...
Good post here. That's how I feel about the 253 changes... trying to level the early game marine/skulk playing field, which they've done through movement. You can still definitely go on a pro skulk rampage and clean up several marines at once, luck be damned, but the skulk is hands down slower, stickier, and forced to chase super hopping marines at some point.
Played a guy the other day who literally taught me how to sprint spin-jump. Thought it was rubber banding, but he literally just sprint jumped away, turned in mid air while simo pressing 'back' key (which keeps the momentum) and call of duty'd me in my skulk face with a shotgun.
There are many ways to .. change this, but I think the point here is the nature of the game. SO many of these old conventions stick around because it's what players know, be it arcade or not. Jumping itself could have a stamina meter, or a huge accuracy penalty, making the jump a dodge-specific maneuver rather than being able to fire with perfect accuracy while flying through the air, but it's all about how different of a shooter the team wants to make it. This could also add a lot of realism, but most of you know that these little changes can easily snowball until you're looking at a much different game, maybe one that you didn't at all intend. With so many factors to consider, I'm glad UWE thinks these changes through before taking any action.
Feels like they've already introduced so much with the aliens themselves, I'm sure not re-inventing a standard FPS system was a definite factor in game development. Time and resources and all that.
Not that an aliens-vs-humans game with a Rainbow 6 style fps system isn't my total wet dream of a game, I'm just furthering the convo here lol.
Any good skulk won't: engage a marine alone without getting ambush or CQ instantly on him. The bad skulks can hop in a straight line towards marines are going to be the ones complaining here while the marine hops away. The only problem is the difference between a vanilla skulk and a vanilla marine but comms should be picking up either cel or cara very early in the game anyway that the side hop vs a good skulk is almost a non-issue.
@RadimaX Playing on a 32 player server on a sale weekend isn't the same as an actual server and vs better players. I still wipe the floor vs newbie - average marines ESPECIALLY with upgrades but vs any decent marine player, I my ass handed to me. Those skulks hold LMB down and walk in a circle hoping for a lucky bite. That's not even close to an average and frequent pubber.
Will have to wait at minimum a few weeks to see if this is actually an issue in balance.
You really think so many people complain about a mechanic when playing in 32 slots servers vs rookies ? I used to play on a 14/16 server where most of the player make comp, as Marines with the new jump system they are insanes, sometimes I just laughed when I saw them making 3 perfect timed strafe jumps backward (it's like they got superpowers) and it becomes so ridiculously OP when they get shotgun to combine with.
The actual strafe jump changes almost nothing vs bad/average rines, it becomes a true pain in the ass versus skilled players because in 1v1 it's like the marine have all cards in hands.
I think we should wait atleast a month before we start spouting statistics of winrates as "proof" of a need of a buff or nerf. It's been my experience that all the games I've played during and after the patch/weekend have been mostly decided on who is the better commander and how many of the players know how to use the map. So let's just throw this nonsense "proof" in the garbage where it belongs.
Personally, I don't find the marine hopping OP in any way, sure it's annoying and I've died a lot 1v1 against an "MLG pr0 pin0y" player but I've still been tweaking my mouse sensitivity and I've attributed my shortcommings against personal mistakes in combat and over/under-correcting myself while "dancing".
This. I find after a major patch, everyone is just getting used to the various changes, and aliens tend to play worse (they need to get used to movement and dodging). The usual result is I actually improve my skulk hunting ability (because aliens are more awkward), then 2 weeks later when the pros are used to the movement, I can only hit an onos that is standing still again
Any good skulk won't: engage a marine alone without getting ambush or CQ instantly on him. The bad skulks can hop in a straight line towards marines are going to be the ones complaining here while the marine hops away. The only problem is the difference between a vanilla skulk and a vanilla marine but comms should be picking up either cel or cara very early in the game anyway that the side hop vs a good skulk is almost a non-issue.
@RadimaX Playing on a 32 player server on a sale weekend isn't the same as an actual server and vs better players. I still wipe the floor vs newbie - average marines ESPECIALLY with upgrades but vs any decent marine player, I my ass handed to me. Those skulks hold LMB down and walk in a circle hoping for a lucky bite. That's not even close to an average and frequent pubber.
Will have to wait at minimum a few weeks to see if this is actually an issue in balance.
Sorry, not accurate at all. I regularly play in 7v7-10v10 servers that typically have competitive players in them. Not just randoms that play pugs here and there, I mean people from the best NA teams. This is a problem because even in an ambush, even when you position correctly, even when you're right on target to line up 3 bites, the marine player will *always* have enough time to do at least one massive leap out of your FoV. If they get that jump right it takes a marine with good tracking about 1 second to kill you at close range. Most of the time what happens when you ambush a good marine is you get two bites, they get a boosted jump off, and then it's entirely up in the air and takes you both about 1 second to target and kill the other person.
This is in the exact situation where a skulk is suppose to have the *advantage*, and yet the encounter is a 50/50 presuming skilled participants at 0/0 weapons and armor. Celerity/cara/biomass do nothing to change this dynamic for a couple reasons. The biggest being that celerity doesn't change the fact that skulks lose all of their speed if they turn at all, so you have a marine that moves as fast as a b-hopping skulk, and a skulk that moves about as fast as a ground skulk while turning. On top of this, the marine hop is incredibly easy to do.
I don't need to wait a couple weeks, I've actually been *playing* the game with and against some of the most skilled people around as well as the average joe. Marine was simple to be good at before and now it's even simpler and more effective. This combine with the stealth nerf of bite range getting shorter relative to how fast you're going has completely changed the balance of the two basic units of the game.
You don't need to play for another month straight to see that the movement buff has created an imbalance in the marine v skulk gameplay.
Waiting a month won't make the skulk accelerate any faster or slow down the marine. Skulk wasn't changed in any way to allow it to counter the increased marine speed, and again that will still be the same in a months time (unless it's patched :P).
With parasite+2 bites being early game strats, I don't see a problem with strafe-jump at all. Armor 0 just gives skulks 1 less bite to worry about once they parasite them.
Comments
it's the best feeling.
The skulk will lose most of its speed, while the marine can then side-jump to create enough distance to kill the Skulk before it can catch up.
Overall, I feel that b254 marines are too strong in melee combat, with their high acceleration, improved base movement speed, and now strafe-jump.
Now marines may be a too high acceleration but strafe jumping isn't the issue and its been in the game and other games for a long time. Fix the acceleration if you think it's OP but keep the marines one and only chance to maybe survive close combat encounters.t
Well, what happens during similar real world collisions is this - the wild animal collides with its prey, losing much of its momentum that of course does not disappear, it causes said prey to be knocked of its feet, possibly stunned and disoriented, while the animal proceeds with tearing its immobilized prey to pieces. Just check out some videos on hunting tigers, wolves and such.
That is what I would say, thank you. However I'm not saying that we need a change about it for "realistic" reasons, just for making the gameplay smoother as skulk and making the fight less "kangooroo power" based.
Strafe jump has been buffed recently though, you get a speed boost if you do it right - your marine will make a little grunt sound.
I'm finding that if a skulk makes one wrong jump in combat, i.e turns in mid air and loses all it's speed, thats it. Dead skulk. The marines speed is just too much for the skulk to be able to close the distance before dieing.
I would LOVE to try a version of the game where the Skulk's momentum is partially transferred to the Marine, effectively pushing him back. Besides realism (which is not an argument on its own), this could be awesome for immersion from the Marine's point of view. Effectively, this would give Skulks a "mass" that can be "felt" in combat. Of course, balance would need to be adjusted for this. Maybe reintroduce the rifle alt-fire knockback? Or transfer some of the bullets' momentum on impact?
It would be interesting to apply that model to the Onos, too. I now have the mental image of an Onos plowing forward with several marines on its "radiator grill"... ^^
"Kinetic energy mod", anyone?
Why do skulks need to link wall hops to achieve max speed and rines hit max speed in an instant... Maybe rines should need to link jumps(build momentum) this way if you see them coming you can start hopping, but when u get ambushed you'll need to survive 1-3 hops to get max agility.
This was actually tried in beta and was terrible. When a marine was jumping in the right moment, he got catapulted out of melee range from the skulk. Effectively nerfing the skulk to the ground.
I don't know what would happen when this would be reintroduced but with a lower speed so he doesn't fling out of melee rang by the impact.
Anyway the Onos really needs this!
Personally, I don't find the marine hopping OP in any way, sure it's annoying and I've died a lot 1v1 against an "MLG pr0 pin0y" player but I've still been tweaking my mouse sensitivity and I've attributed my shortcommings against personal mistakes in combat and over/under-correcting myself while "dancing".
It feels right and wrong depend on situation.
You can get insane speed with jumping down hallways. This feels buggy (like the downward blink bug) and look like an marine on spastic gait and should be fixed asap.
In close fight it feels ok, need some tweaking for sure, but its ok.
The skill of the skulk count and its very easy to jump away from "holy ground skulks" now.
But im sure it was the same pre 253/254 builds and we have many rookies playing these days.
I hope UWE (sewlek) isnt trying to implement a "skill-movement" for marines.
This would end in horrible real bunny hopping marines.
Bunnyhop itself fit into games like: Quake, UT,.. not in games like CS, NS2, BF3.
To extend this point for the fairness of marine-skulk melees - I think there should be a bit more of a jump penalty against marines. That they need to wait a slightly longer time before being able to do a full-height jump again.
While I was playing on the BT server talking to Sewlek, I did a few tests and asked a few questions. To super jump, one must hold A/D and jump at proper timing. This jump can get up to 7.8 movement speed, but I was getting around 6.5-7 average. Default Skulk speed being 7. There is a .8 delay between the super jumps built in.
@RadimaX Playing on a 32 player server on a sale weekend isn't the same as an actual server and vs better players. I still wipe the floor vs newbie - average marines ESPECIALLY with upgrades but vs any decent marine player, I my ass handed to me. Those skulks hold LMB down and walk in a circle hoping for a lucky bite. That's not even close to an average and frequent pubber.
Will have to wait at minimum a few weeks to see if this is actually an issue in balance.
Also bad rines don't use the mechanic or aim well enough for it to be an issue.
The reason i dislike this mechanic is because it hurts the good skulk and helps the good marine. And I felt that the good marine already had the advantage against the good skulk...
Good post here. That's how I feel about the 253 changes... trying to level the early game marine/skulk playing field, which they've done through movement. You can still definitely go on a pro skulk rampage and clean up several marines at once, luck be damned, but the skulk is hands down slower, stickier, and forced to chase super hopping marines at some point.
Played a guy the other day who literally taught me how to sprint spin-jump. Thought it was rubber banding, but he literally just sprint jumped away, turned in mid air while simo pressing 'back' key (which keeps the momentum) and call of duty'd me in my skulk face with a shotgun.
There are many ways to .. change this, but I think the point here is the nature of the game. SO many of these old conventions stick around because it's what players know, be it arcade or not. Jumping itself could have a stamina meter, or a huge accuracy penalty, making the jump a dodge-specific maneuver rather than being able to fire with perfect accuracy while flying through the air, but it's all about how different of a shooter the team wants to make it. This could also add a lot of realism, but most of you know that these little changes can easily snowball until you're looking at a much different game, maybe one that you didn't at all intend. With so many factors to consider, I'm glad UWE thinks these changes through before taking any action.
Feels like they've already introduced so much with the aliens themselves, I'm sure not re-inventing a standard FPS system was a definite factor in game development. Time and resources and all that.
Not that an aliens-vs-humans game with a Rainbow 6 style fps system isn't my total wet dream of a game, I'm just furthering the convo here lol.
You really think so many people complain about a mechanic when playing in 32 slots servers vs rookies ? I used to play on a 14/16 server where most of the player make comp, as Marines with the new jump system they are insanes, sometimes I just laughed when I saw them making 3 perfect timed strafe jumps backward (it's like they got superpowers) and it becomes so ridiculously OP when they get shotgun to combine with.
The actual strafe jump changes almost nothing vs bad/average rines, it becomes a true pain in the ass versus skilled players because in 1v1 it's like the marine have all cards in hands.
This. I find after a major patch, everyone is just getting used to the various changes, and aliens tend to play worse (they need to get used to movement and dodging). The usual result is I actually improve my skulk hunting ability (because aliens are more awkward), then 2 weeks later when the pros are used to the movement, I can only hit an onos that is standing still again
Sorry, not accurate at all. I regularly play in 7v7-10v10 servers that typically have competitive players in them. Not just randoms that play pugs here and there, I mean people from the best NA teams. This is a problem because even in an ambush, even when you position correctly, even when you're right on target to line up 3 bites, the marine player will *always* have enough time to do at least one massive leap out of your FoV. If they get that jump right it takes a marine with good tracking about 1 second to kill you at close range. Most of the time what happens when you ambush a good marine is you get two bites, they get a boosted jump off, and then it's entirely up in the air and takes you both about 1 second to target and kill the other person.
This is in the exact situation where a skulk is suppose to have the *advantage*, and yet the encounter is a 50/50 presuming skilled participants at 0/0 weapons and armor. Celerity/cara/biomass do nothing to change this dynamic for a couple reasons. The biggest being that celerity doesn't change the fact that skulks lose all of their speed if they turn at all, so you have a marine that moves as fast as a b-hopping skulk, and a skulk that moves about as fast as a ground skulk while turning. On top of this, the marine hop is incredibly easy to do.
I don't need to wait a couple weeks, I've actually been *playing* the game with and against some of the most skilled people around as well as the average joe. Marine was simple to be good at before and now it's even simpler and more effective. This combine with the stealth nerf of bite range getting shorter relative to how fast you're going has completely changed the balance of the two basic units of the game.
Waiting a month won't make the skulk accelerate any faster or slow down the marine. Skulk wasn't changed in any way to allow it to counter the increased marine speed, and again that will still be the same in a months time (unless it's patched :P).