So you're saying because you think the early game balance is okay, that the rest of encounters where strafe jump is used are okay too?
Parasite tells the marine where you are, you're not going to ambush someone that's parasited, and if you parasite on the way in you give the marine the same amount of time as just closing the distance before alerting them to strafe jump out of the way. Parasite at a0 does not change the dynamic of the effectiveness of strafe jumping, the marine can still turn the encounter into a 50/50 when the skulk is suppose to have an advantage.
I personally am not struggling at all against the new strafe jump mechanic. I think this comes down to skulk movement style. I'll try and describe the two main styles I see people employ in skulk vs lmg engagements.
Jump Skulks
Attempt to jump into the marine to land bites. What ends up occuring is the skulk jumps, creates a predictable & trackable path in the air that allows a good marine to achieve very high accuracy and puts himself in a position where he cannot react to marine movement. The marine subsequentially backjumps (turns 90 degrees, strafe jumps) or side jumps away from the skulk.
Thes skulk simply cannot react to the directional change of the marine because he's stuck floating in the air. This is the scenario where you create massive distance between the marine and skulk and I feel is what 99% of players struggle with.
Strafing Skulks
Use whatever method necessary to be in melee range of marine, the difference is that once they are not in melee range they wait for the strafe jump to occur and simply strafe/follow it. THe marine being in the air ultimately makes their movement predictable allowing you to track with precision to land a quick 1-2 bite.
Additionally, strafing under a marines feet is ALOT more unpredictable then chasing him with the jump key.
I suggest if you are struggling with strafe jumping marines, you use the second style rather than the first. Wait for the marine to jump and simply follow him without jumping yourself.
One last note; due to the high interp in this game you will always 'sometimes' loose track of the marine simply because he walked straight through you. This will happen Its part of the game. You can counteract this by not holding the forward key when in melee range, and instead keep the same distance by only using strafe keys.
The skulk can react in the air to a marine jumping, it's just that UWE has intentionally gimped the mechanic directly by keeping certain variable incredibly low so that if an alien turns in the air they lost a lot of speed really fast. This is not true for marines, and they can curve in their jump quite sharp while staying really fast, this is a mechanical imbalance. While wall hopping you're a lot faster and harder to hit, the second you touch the ground and stay there you're very, very easy to hit. So I really don't think walking along the ground is viable against marines who can aim, especially since that make sit a lot easier for them to jump out of your FoV.
Don't know who you play against where ground speed is enough for them to lose track of you, or they somehow don't kill you while walking toward them after they jump away. The people I play against will kill you after that first jump if you don't track them with a wall hop or disengage to cover before they react.
Either I explained it incorrectly or you misunderstood me. I'm not saying you walk up to them, I'm saying you simply do not commit to the air as a skulk when in melee range. A good player will know when a jump is appropriate and when not to jump.
If you have ever experienced as a marine where that skulk just manages to stay under your feet and you can't get a bead on him, they are doing what i'm attempting to explain.
FYI: This works against some of the best marine players in aus.
The 'midair collision with marine' issue is a pretty annoying one in that it's a huge trap for new skulks who typically instinctively jump when in close combat, the only real solution would be to give skulks some way to more quickly accelerate from a standstill but without giving them insane twitchy dodging skills or 'mini leap' jumping power like they had in some old builds, which isn't a trivial issue to solve. I'd love some kind of boostjump mechanic to help with this as well as to make it easier to start walljump chains but I think that it would probably be considered too much of a nod to quake-style bunnyhopping. I guess the answer to all this shit is leap but it's not really the same thing and it isn't part of the early game.
you mean something like leap??
I was mostly joking about the conservation of momentum thing in my previous post...
I agree that the current strafe jump mechanic needs work, but not that it should be removed. At the moment it is too easy to matador even a great skulk if you time it right. I don't want to loose the only defense in close combat a marine has, but I think at the moment it's slightly OP. It really comes down to the speed and acceleration bonus that is gained in this current strafe jump. Reduce both of those slightly until the skulk has the advantage, and boom, it's fixed. Skulks should have the advantage in close combat, but it shouldn't be the automatic win button.
Extend the length of the jump and reduce the height. Curve the speed a little on landing, or a slight thund.
Don't let them shoot in the air, unless with a jetpack.
Excuse me guys I am new to NS.. and I would like to know what you are talking about exactly? Some of you call it strafe jumping, others bunny hoping which is not the same at all to me as an old players of both Q3 and HL1. We could achieve really great speed in those games and I did not succeed as a Marine in NS.
- In Q3 the strafe jump was basically jumping by going straight and holding one of the strafe keys (A or D) and having your mouse look at an angle.
- Bunny hoping would be to hold the keys like strafe jumping except that you have to turn the mouse continuously while jumping (jump + turning mouse left while holding A then new jump and turning mouse right while holding D, etc)
Could someone explain me what do you have to do in NS? I could not find any tutorial or video example
The terms have changed in usage here in the forums. They have no relevance anymore to the old bunny hopping or strafe jumping. They describe own mechanics of NS2 now.
* bunny hopping: Mostly referred to the simple queuing of many jumps. (because a bunny can't walk but always jumps) Mostly referred to a marine trying to avoid bites from a skulk through constantly jumping.
* strafe jumping: A new mechanic for marines introduced with the reinforce patch that gives them a short speed boost over the normal maximum when holding strafe and jumping at the right moment.
* wall jumping: A mechanic for skulks to gain speed over the normal maximum by additional jumps when passing by close to a wall. (=jumping of that wall to gain speed)
Oh and at the topic:
After reading how to execute it, it sounds really wrong. Srsly! Holding Strafe and jumping in the right moment? How is a new player supposed to find that out? I thought we had agreed, that one of NS2s problems is the big skill gap of new players to veterans. Why increasing it with another mechanic that is difficult to find out. Even wall-jump is something all new players struggle to find out. That doesn't help to close the gap between the both skill extremes.
The marine jump is out of control. Just played game after game after game with hordes of hopping, leaping, flying marines dodging every single life form the aliens had besides Onos. It's just silly now, and gives marines a massive early game advantage. Aliens are still winning like 75% of the matches, though, which is most likely due to marines being so gimped in the late game by worthless exos.
But I think it's going to drive players away big time. It's not 'balance,' it's artificial, forced crap that isn't fair for both players. Skulks absolutely do not have a fair chance at getting at a marine like they used to. It's all about mob attacks and blind luck, esp. with the performance problems. Player count going to take a dive for the 1,093,598,927,386th time. *rolls eyes*
You can't even chase a marine, as they can leap sideways and backwards faster than you can forward.
If you want your gameplay to be like that UWE, you need to make it clear how you expect Skulks to play - like mad idiot Zerglings that don't rely on stealth anymore because you really can't even 1v1 a marine if they're worth a damn.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
I think the no shooting when in air unless you have a jp should fix this. I am fine with marines being able to dodge a-la-side jump (skill), but it should be countered by a skilled skulk that can predict where the marine will land and be there to bite. Whilst in the air, the marine can't shoot, but can fire their weapons once they land. That way it is really the skill of the players that will determine outcome, and not be one side favored (a jump dodging marine who can fire in mid air is just too op). It might be able to be implemented in code by having a fire delay after you jump that is modified if you have a jp. I am less in favor of a stamina bar for marines (to limit jumping), as this adds more complexity to marine movement management (I can see people wanting to tack sprinting to this as well).
the 32 player server is hosted by teamworks and tactics, some wongaNs players, some T.W.A.T players and other comp players frequently visits and i know how it feels engaging them 1on1. The competative player that play on the very same server does not become noobs just for pressing connect on that exact server. Just because i dont choose to play on a slow pasted mindgame 6vs6 server does not mean i have to automaticly be a noob haha. I like the high paste and loads of action in any given room you end up in. There is always multiple targets to kill and sometime you happen to get into a situation where every one died and you are left in a room vs 10 by yourself so then you almost wish you only met a single strafejumping-pro on your own. However The strafe jumpingthing is getting ridiculous and i only described one of many hundred scenarios in the comment. its like the only difference between marines and skulks is that they cannot climb the walls :P to be honest even a rookie can outjump a skulk with this new machanic, so dont even get me started on trying to kill the comp players because you can come in and try for yourselves...it would propably take half the team as skulks backwards walking speed or penalty is easy to overcome with just 3 simple jumps.
Ive lost all my enjoyment in playing skulk.
I can see what way the marine is going every damn time but I can never reach him. Its just not possible to maintain enough speed when he does his 90 feet jump away. And if his accuracy sucks and he doesnt finish me after that NBA jump, just when I reach him again he jumps a 2nd time. Why BabyJesus, why? Im about to quit this forever even tho I love the damn game
Either I explained it incorrectly or you misunderstood me. I'm not saying you walk up to them, I'm saying you simply do not commit to the air as a skulk when in melee range. A good player will know when a jump is appropriate and when not to jump.
If you have ever experienced as a marine where that skulk just manages to stay under your feet and you can't get a bead on him, they are doing what i'm attempting to explain.
FYI: This works against some of the best marine players in aus.
I must not be understanding you right then, because when I get the first bite on a completely unaware marine, I might get one more bite in before they do a boosted jump. At that point that one jump gets them far enough away to where they have enough time to kill me on the ground before I can sloe the distance for a 3rd bite. This also presumes I have not missed a bite and have tracked them perfectly, which is absurdly more difficult than just hitting a strafe button and the space bar.
Marines can move backward faster than skulks can move forward on the ground with the new jump, you *can't* close the distance without the marine having just as much a chance to kill you as you do to kill them. This is really poor design as it gets rid of ambushing and hitting unaware marines being an advantage, and it also gets rid of the entire concept that marines should stay in packs to stay alive. They don't need to, with enough jumping 1v1 even in an ambush in a dark room it's a 50/50.
I thought this rubbish would have been fixed by now. This is much like brick skulks all over again.
UWE you need to make vanilla skulk vs vanilla marine both balanced and fun for both sides. I personally think it was better in 251 than now. You could still strafe away from skulks then, and many did (on account of marine not running backwards as quickly). I really don't see what was wrong with 251 in this regard.
I am not a big fan of straff jump, but is seems I have to use it on the server I play on as many others do. I went 14:0 when we won the game last time I played and was focusing on jump straff. It is annoying seeing that marine blast back faster than you can move forward. I try to do more hopping to cover of
Ambushing.
I don't see what the issue is. Sometimes marines are able to jump away from my teeth, yes, but it's certainly not OP if you know how to move and bite with a skulk. Just my 2 cents, ya'll crying over l2p
I thought this rubbish would have been fixed by now. This is much like brick skulks all over again.
UWE you need to make vanilla skulk vs vanilla marine both balanced and fun for both sides. I personally think it was better in 251 than now. You could still strafe away from skulks then, and many did (on account of marine not running backwards as quickly). I really don't see what was wrong with 251 in this regard.
Thank you for that link and I agree with your post. I know there have been back-and-forths with this in past builds, but I have to also give an extra +1 to the build 251 comment. Not only was marine vs. skulk still feeling pretty balanced and fun, I feel like that patch was hardly out long enough to realize its full effects before 253 came barreling along. I mean the skulk was changed quite a bit in 251, wasn't he? I remember still getting used to it as new patch arrived. :P
UWE can be frustrating in that regard, feeling like they not only change what needs to be changed for balance, but other aspects that seemed fine already.
I still do feel like they've somehow managed to balance a lot of other factors, but it's getting like whack-a-mole here, fix balance there-create imbalance over there.
It reminds me of writing, which I do on the daily. You can write the same sentence 100 different times, and all hundred may be the right way. Thinking back on the versions of NS2, there were many that were close or felt about as closely balanced as they could get, but were changed. It's just starting to feel like 'whats the point here?' Not so much building to a better product as just swapping out different pieces constantly, trying to see what sticks and what works together.
I know the devs work very hard to achieve as balanced and playable game, for everybody, as possible, I just want them to stop robbing Peter to pay Paul.
It's just a buff to the skilled rines.... I spent a full minute jumping around docking with four skulks biting at my ankles (boy was I mashing the ammo request button). Every now and again I landed an axe hit... After a full minute a different marine walked in and shot 2 of them, then the comm decided it was worth 1 res to drop ammo and I killed the last 2...
Yes they were obviously terrible and yes I got very very lucky on a lot of those jumps... But seriously after 10 seconds I stopped yelling at my com to give me amp and was just playing aground with the jump(was almost mad when said marine came in to save me and end my fun)
Sorry one more thing I'd like to add to this ramble, thanks to Mad Max for reminding me: Now nearly every early game is marine dominance, but miraculously, the aliens still manage to win most games, even with early skulks getting destroyed over and over.
What underlying problem does this expose, lol? I mean, most of us agree that early engagements can be critical, game-deciding events, which helps make them so tense and fun. Now it just seems like Skulks are fodder until the first higher lifeform is on the field, and early game has little meaning so long as both teams have at least 1 rt. How can that be intentional? The devs know better than to do cripple their core gameplay experience (marine v. skulk) like that. It's the first thing most people are going to experience in the game anyway.
@Achillied yep, when buff base mariens and nerf base aliens combat ability to the point that marines dominate... And aliens STILL win over and over, maybe the problem isn't base level combat.
Now the question is do they continue to nerf base aliens and buff base rines, until a pack of 4 skulks is a minimum for engaging anything.... Or will they restore balance to base alien vs base marine, and look for the real problem...
Keep marine mobility as is. Its nice not to feel like you're carrying 50 tons on you. Upgrade Alien mobility if it causes serious balance issues (which I doubt highly, the meta shifted, people are readjusting atm). Honestly, "jump marines" are only an issue if you do nothing but run on the ground once an engagement has started. Use walls, use the ceiling, be just as unpredictable. (Plus moving up on walls and ceilings will give you better sight of the marine.)
Just my 2 cents.
TL;DR: Mobility is fine. Let players adjust to the meta shift.
i enjoy it, i can now use my skills to attempt and survive an engagement longer; and as an alien it doesn't bother me as long as you have good tracking you're still going to get the marine if you engaged right
and by engaged right i mean let your team go first and get them while they're all reloading >: D
Comments
Parasite tells the marine where you are, you're not going to ambush someone that's parasited, and if you parasite on the way in you give the marine the same amount of time as just closing the distance before alerting them to strafe jump out of the way. Parasite at a0 does not change the dynamic of the effectiveness of strafe jumping, the marine can still turn the encounter into a 50/50 when the skulk is suppose to have an advantage.
Jump Skulks
Attempt to jump into the marine to land bites. What ends up occuring is the skulk jumps, creates a predictable & trackable path in the air that allows a good marine to achieve very high accuracy and puts himself in a position where he cannot react to marine movement. The marine subsequentially backjumps (turns 90 degrees, strafe jumps) or side jumps away from the skulk.
Thes skulk simply cannot react to the directional change of the marine because he's stuck floating in the air. This is the scenario where you create massive distance between the marine and skulk and I feel is what 99% of players struggle with.
Strafing Skulks
Use whatever method necessary to be in melee range of marine, the difference is that once they are not in melee range they wait for the strafe jump to occur and simply strafe/follow it. THe marine being in the air ultimately makes their movement predictable allowing you to track with precision to land a quick 1-2 bite.
Additionally, strafing under a marines feet is ALOT more unpredictable then chasing him with the jump key.
I suggest if you are struggling with strafe jumping marines, you use the second style rather than the first. Wait for the marine to jump and simply follow him without jumping yourself.
One last note; due to the high interp in this game you will always 'sometimes' loose track of the marine simply because he walked straight through you. This will happen
Don't know who you play against where ground speed is enough for them to lose track of you, or they somehow don't kill you while walking toward them after they jump away. The people I play against will kill you after that first jump if you don't track them with a wall hop or disengage to cover before they react.
If you have ever experienced as a marine where that skulk just manages to stay under your feet and you can't get a bead on him, they are doing what i'm attempting to explain.
FYI: This works against some of the best marine players in aus.
you mean something like leap??
I was mostly joking about the conservation of momentum thing in my previous post...
I agree that the current strafe jump mechanic needs work, but not that it should be removed. At the moment it is too easy to matador even a great skulk if you time it right. I don't want to loose the only defense in close combat a marine has, but I think at the moment it's slightly OP. It really comes down to the speed and acceleration bonus that is gained in this current strafe jump. Reduce both of those slightly until the skulk has the advantage, and boom, it's fixed. Skulks should have the advantage in close combat, but it shouldn't be the automatic win button.
Don't let them shoot in the air, unless with a jetpack.
Never liked bunny hopping.
To maintain speed while turning rapidly, strafe in the opposite direction of the turn (eg while turning left, strafe right).
- In Q3 the strafe jump was basically jumping by going straight and holding one of the strafe keys (A or D) and having your mouse look at an angle.
- Bunny hoping would be to hold the keys like strafe jumping except that you have to turn the mouse continuously while jumping (jump + turning mouse left while holding A then new jump and turning mouse right while holding D, etc)
Could someone explain me what do you have to do in NS? I could not find any tutorial or video example
* bunny hopping: Mostly referred to the simple queuing of many jumps. (because a bunny can't walk but always jumps) Mostly referred to a marine trying to avoid bites from a skulk through constantly jumping.
* strafe jumping: A new mechanic for marines introduced with the reinforce patch that gives them a short speed boost over the normal maximum when holding strafe and jumping at the right moment.
* wall jumping: A mechanic for skulks to gain speed over the normal maximum by additional jumps when passing by close to a wall. (=jumping of that wall to gain speed)
Oh and at the topic:
After reading how to execute it, it sounds really wrong. Srsly! Holding Strafe and jumping in the right moment? How is a new player supposed to find that out? I thought we had agreed, that one of NS2s problems is the big skill gap of new players to veterans. Why increasing it with another mechanic that is difficult to find out. Even wall-jump is something all new players struggle to find out. That doesn't help to close the gap between the both skill extremes.
But I think it's going to drive players away big time. It's not 'balance,' it's artificial, forced crap that isn't fair for both players. Skulks absolutely do not have a fair chance at getting at a marine like they used to. It's all about mob attacks and blind luck, esp. with the performance problems. Player count going to take a dive for the 1,093,598,927,386th time. *rolls eyes*
You can't even chase a marine, as they can leap sideways and backwards faster than you can forward.
If you want your gameplay to be like that UWE, you need to make it clear how you expect Skulks to play - like mad idiot Zerglings that don't rely on stealth anymore because you really can't even 1v1 a marine if they're worth a damn.
I can see what way the marine is going every damn time but I can never reach him. Its just not possible to maintain enough speed when he does his 90 feet jump away. And if his accuracy sucks and he doesnt finish me after that NBA jump, just when I reach him again he jumps a 2nd time. Why BabyJesus, why? Im about to quit this forever even tho I love the damn game
I must not be understanding you right then, because when I get the first bite on a completely unaware marine, I might get one more bite in before they do a boosted jump. At that point that one jump gets them far enough away to where they have enough time to kill me on the ground before I can sloe the distance for a 3rd bite. This also presumes I have not missed a bite and have tracked them perfectly, which is absurdly more difficult than just hitting a strafe button and the space bar.
Marines can move backward faster than skulks can move forward on the ground with the new jump, you *can't* close the distance without the marine having just as much a chance to kill you as you do to kill them. This is really poor design as it gets rid of ambushing and hitting unaware marines being an advantage, and it also gets rid of the entire concept that marines should stay in packs to stay alive. They don't need to, with enough jumping 1v1 even in an ambush in a dark room it's a 50/50.
UWE you need to make vanilla skulk vs vanilla marine both balanced and fun for both sides. I personally think it was better in 251 than now. You could still strafe away from skulks then, and many did (on account of marine not running backwards as quickly). I really don't see what was wrong with 251 in this regard.
Ambushing.
Thank you for that link and I agree with your post. I know there have been back-and-forths with this in past builds, but I have to also give an extra +1 to the build 251 comment. Not only was marine vs. skulk still feeling pretty balanced and fun, I feel like that patch was hardly out long enough to realize its full effects before 253 came barreling along. I mean the skulk was changed quite a bit in 251, wasn't he? I remember still getting used to it as new patch arrived. :P
UWE can be frustrating in that regard, feeling like they not only change what needs to be changed for balance, but other aspects that seemed fine already.
I still do feel like they've somehow managed to balance a lot of other factors, but it's getting like whack-a-mole here, fix balance there-create imbalance over there.
It reminds me of writing, which I do on the daily. You can write the same sentence 100 different times, and all hundred may be the right way. Thinking back on the versions of NS2, there were many that were close or felt about as closely balanced as they could get, but were changed. It's just starting to feel like 'whats the point here?' Not so much building to a better product as just swapping out different pieces constantly, trying to see what sticks and what works together.
I know the devs work very hard to achieve as balanced and playable game, for everybody, as possible, I just want them to stop robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Yes they were obviously terrible and yes I got very very lucky on a lot of those jumps... But seriously after 10 seconds I stopped yelling at my com to give me amp and was just playing aground with the jump(was almost mad when said marine came in to save me and end my fun)
What underlying problem does this expose, lol? I mean, most of us agree that early engagements can be critical, game-deciding events, which helps make them so tense and fun. Now it just seems like Skulks are fodder until the first higher lifeform is on the field, and early game has little meaning so long as both teams have at least 1 rt. How can that be intentional? The devs know better than to do cripple their core gameplay experience (marine v. skulk) like that. It's the first thing most people are going to experience in the game anyway.
Because it was not a bug.
is it balanced? well, that's debatable.
If it breaks the fun in the game, I call it a bug
Now the question is do they continue to nerf base aliens and buff base rines, until a pack of 4 skulks is a minimum for engaging anything.... Or will they restore balance to base alien vs base marine, and look for the real problem...
Just my 2 cents.
TL;DR: Mobility is fine. Let players adjust to the meta shift.
and by engaged right i mean let your team go first and get them while they're all reloading >: D