I think the strafejumping issue could be partially fixed by changing the default vision to highlight marines rather than outlining them. Seriously, it's so much more difficult to track now than it used to be.
Marines are stupid easy to track, you noobs have had easy mode for far too long.
I'm sure you're the best player in the world and there are no competitive players that disagree with you at all. I'm also sure you don't play against bad aliens all the time to have this massive unproductive bias and awful attitude. I'm also sure this is all sarcasm.
Marines are stupid easy to track, you noobs have had easy mode for far too long.
Oh really? So before the change, when I kept alien vision OFF and didn't have ANY outlines or "help" - that is what you call "easy mode"?
If that's the case then according to you Marines have had "easy mode" vision ever since the game launched. That also means that every other FPS game out there has "easy mode" vision.
This new strafe jumping is out of control. When you get a good player that knows how to do it well, they can jump circles around a skulk, which is absurd. It should be the other way around, considering the aliens have to dodge HITSCAN weapons! It's completely unrealistic and unbalanced. Now that more and more people are learning how to do it properly, it's really noticeable how badly balanced it is.
Agree. I was playing Marine the other day and had 3 Skulks ambush me.
I started jumping around in circles and ended up killing all 3 of them.
My aim is definitely not the best, and for me to be able to solo 3 Skulks (who got the drop on me I might add) felt extremely unbalanced.
I'm thinking until they fix these changes I'm going to spend all my Skulk time running away from Marines and just going after Extractors and such. It's pretty bad when I feel confident enough as a Marine to adventure out solo.
This new strafe jumping is out of control. When you get a good player that knows how to do it well, they can jump circles around a skulk, which is absurd. It should be the other way around, considering the aliens have to dodge HITSCAN weapons! It's completely unrealistic and unbalanced. Now that more and more people are learning how to do it properly, it's really noticeable how badly balanced it is.
Agree. I was playing Marine the other day and had 3 Skulks ambush me.
I started jumping around in circles and ended up killing all 3 of them.
My aim is definitely not the best, and for me to be able to solo 3 Skulks (who got the drop on me I might add) felt extremely unbalanced.
I'm thinking until they fix these changes I'm going to spend all my Skulk time running away from Marines and just going after Extractors and such. It's pretty bad when I feel confident enough as a Marine to adventure out solo.
If 3 skulks got the drop on you and didn't kill you, the issue isn't in marine jumping.
ITT: Anecdotal evidence of bad skulks getting killed
Considering I play with and against comp players that frequent pubs nearly every day, I'd have to disagree and ask you who are you that you think you're better than everyone on this forum? Sounds like a huge amount of childish arrogance to me.
ITT: Anecdotal evidence of bad skulks getting killed
And what about the good skulk that still complains about it ? Meaning top 3 scores only as skulk, no fade and / or onos involved at combat or Classic (would be unfair on pubs). What about them ?
Everybody that possess eyes can see the huge lag issue it involves and the lottery SJ is right now.
I want to be able to strafe jump over railings and up stepped levels. To do that, you need to increase strafe jump height. And to do that and keep it balanced, you need to decrease strafe jump accel/speed. That's my main reason for wanting strafe jump gone.
Then there is obvious whacky effectiveness to skill scaling. It takes way more 'skill' to track and time bites than it does to randomly press a strafe direction and jump. It's not enough to argue about strafe jump just from the competitive perspective.
Also always thought that movement should all be able to break down into your fundamental wasd, accel, speed, air behaviour. Movement should be consistent and intuitively flow on from the fundamentals - just like bhop did. To me, gimmicky strafe jumps that behave more like magic spell cd's is just not clean design for an fps. That you need a cd on it at all is a warning sign.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2013
I think a side "dive" with left/right + sprint (shift key) which disables shooting (just like sprint) would be more balanced than the current side jump.
Strafe + jump could then restored to its previous behaviour (no height penalty, no speed gain).
Then there is obvious whacky effectiveness to skill scaling. It takes way more 'skill' to track and time bites than it does to randomly press a strafe direction and jump. It's not enough to argue about strafe jump just from the competitive perspective.
I want to be able to strafe jump over railings and up stepped levels.
It doesn't sound like you understand how it works atm, or worked in the past, at all...
How have i misunderstood how it works atm? How has this strafe long jump worked differently in the past? It actually sounds like either you've midunderstood my post, misunderstood how strafe jump dodge works, or misunderstood how marine movement flows overall.
To give you the benefit of the doubt, what I mean is I want jump height to be consistent for all types of jump directions and button combination jumps*. Exactly like it was prior to the strafe long jump. Some of the main things marine movement actually needed back before all this was higher accel, more standardised weapon weights, and slightly higher base speed, not some herp derp magical dodge. So you could actually juke. You know, faking and baiting skulk movements, instead of random direction long jumping (left or right? Who cares, just pick one - lean to your direction bias and call it 'creativity'. Easy mode shotgun him either direction). The kind of movement that is the right balance of reactionary and initiative. The kind of movement that both requires creativity, and allows players to show creativity.
*edit* To make this clearer, i should also point to the example of vortex. Yes, you can still be super creative, but you don't need to. Basically that you get way too healthy effectiveness-for-effort at low effort levels.
Right now with the strafe jump dodge, you cannot strafe jump over railings because your feet will always clip it and you will land on the other side with no speed and a huge slowdown penalty, put in to balance the just anywhere normal strafe long jumping. And that's if you're lucky - sometimes you'll just bang against the railing or vertical step and subsequently die. The rules for strafe long jumping are just not consistent with the rest of the movement model. That I have no control over what kind of strafe jump (normal/consistent jump, or magic spell long jump) i want to do is a huge weakness.
Also, people forget what the main purpose of jump is for a ranged class. Something that allows you to shoot in a direction more than 90 degrees off your direction of movement, take advantage of any air control, and reach higher places. It should NOT be some super spangly dodge move for gaining distance in and of itself. Jump and lower backward speed modifier are hand in hand mechanics that create the interesting dynamic of combat strafe jumping. Strafe jumps should be fundamentally motivated from this core, and not because you get some random bonus to horizontal speed and thus distance.
*Except for lower jump height on repeated jump spam. That rule in particular makes sense and is not unreasonable.
Elodea, you, sir, have a way with words. Perfectly articulating just what exactly it is that has been consistently rubbing me the wrong way about the strafe jump mechanic.
Every time I launch NS2 the SJ irritates me more than the previous time. I really hope this is fixed in the next patch, heck, I'd gladly take a patch whose sole purpose it is is to fix this.
Im tired of playing skulk and trying to bite flying marine over my head. E1 is raping spacebar and strafe buton. Its sick. Ill be back when it stops. Its one of the most annoying things ive ever seen in games ...
Right now with the strafe jump dodge, you cannot strafe jump over railings because your feet will always clip it and you will land on the other side with no speed and a huge slowdown penalty, put in to balance the just anywhere normal strafe long jumping. And that's if you're lucky - sometimes you'll just bang against the railing or vertical step and subsequently die. The rules for strafe long jumping are just not consistent with the rest of the movement model. That I have no control over what kind of strafe jump (normal/consistent jump, or magic spell long jump) i want to do is a huge weakness.
Clipping the railing is exactly what you want to do... it's an elevated jump
and ask you who are you that you think you're better than everyone on this forum?
Didn't say that, who do YOU think you are to assert that I have said that? My point is simply that the strafejumping does not bother me, and at times when it's a hinderance I prefer to blame my own lack of skill rather than calling it a broken mechanic, because it can be dealt with in a practical manner.
and ask you who are you that you think you're better than everyone on this forum?
Didn't say that, who do YOU think you are to assert that I have said that? My point is simply that the strafejumping does not bother me, and at times when it's a hinderance I prefer to blame my own lack of skill rather than calling it a broken mechanic, because it can be dealt with in a practical manner.
Sounds like a huge amount of childish arrogance to me.
You're projecting your own insecurities onto me, now. That's just not healthy.
Your entire argument was "L2P", so either you're presuming the people in this thread that have a problem with it are just bad and lying if they say they aren't bad or you're presuming that after a certain level (one which the people disagreeing with you you are again presuming they have not attained) this is not a problem, and you are indeed at that level.
L2P arguments never come from a place of maturity or understanding, come off as elitist, and generally don't help the conversation in any way.
Right now with the strafe jump dodge, you cannot strafe jump over railings because your feet will always clip it and you will land on the other side with no speed and a huge slowdown penalty, put in to balance the just anywhere normal strafe long jumping. And that's if you're lucky - sometimes you'll just bang against the railing or vertical step and subsequently die. The rules for strafe long jumping are just not consistent with the rest of the movement model. That I have no control over what kind of strafe jump (normal/consistent jump, or magic spell long jump) i want to do is a huge weakness.
Clipping the railing is exactly what you want to do... it's an elevated jump
Ok, so we know what the problem is now. It's the third reason: You don't understand overall marine movement flow.
My point is simply that the strafejumping does not bother me, and at times when it's a hinderance I prefer to blame my own lack of skill rather than calling it a broken mechanic, because it can be dealt with in a practical manner.
and ask you who are you that you think you're better than everyone on this forum?
Didn't say that, who do YOU think you are to assert that I have said that? My point is simply that the strafejumping does not bother me, and at times when it's a hinderance I prefer to blame my own lack of skill rather than calling it a broken mechanic, because it can be dealt with in a practical manner.
Sounds like a huge amount of childish arrogance to me.
You're projecting your own insecurities onto me, now. That's just not healthy.
The point is that very good players have a problem with the jumping and yet you say:"Marines are stupid easy to track, you noobs have had easy mode for far too long."
Well if you're calling these people noobs you imply you're better than them - I would bet that you're not better than all of them, which is essentially Asmodies' point.
Fwiw I'm not that great a player, but I'm personally not having any issues with the strafe jump.
I am having issues with the awful alien sight, though.
Aren't marines are designed to win 1x1 and skulks should work in teams to take them down.
I mean it sucks but...
The design principle was actually the opposite, aliens were suppose to work more autonomously while the marines needed to stick in small groups in order to not get picked off. Aside from the design principle the mechanic has a super low skill requirement to use to gain a ton of effectiveness, while to combat it takes much more ability. Unless you're the aforementioned predicted premiere division champs of 2013 apparently....
Every time I launch NS2 the SJ irritates me more than the previous time.
Yeah, i really hoped they fixed it for 255, then 256... nope.
Atleast they should remove the air control, it's like flying a plane.
Skulk was so much more fun before with old alien vision and no michael jordan jumps.
I understand they want to go to the 50 50 balance but it feels like they are tinkering on the wrong things.
I would prefer if they make each armor upgrade 5 res cheaper. Needing one more bite can make it already a little tougher.
And make the lerk 30 res again, you can go lerk so early ingame and it's a real killer machine.
And there are tons of other options to tweak balance but rescent changes is like touching the core to deep.
I agree. Marines should have a sort of stamina when constantly jumping, so that the jumping either slows, or the height/distance shortens. OR, a bite from skulk could temporarily slow the marine for a couple seconds. But regardless, something needs to be done about this issue. Skulks should be able to outmaneuver Marines, not the opposite.
Comments
I'm sure you're the best player in the world and there are no competitive players that disagree with you at all. I'm also sure you don't play against bad aliens all the time to have this massive unproductive bias and awful attitude. I'm also sure this is all sarcasm.
Oh really? So before the change, when I kept alien vision OFF and didn't have ANY outlines or "help" - that is what you call "easy mode"?
If that's the case then according to you Marines have had "easy mode" vision ever since the game launched. That also means that every other FPS game out there has "easy mode" vision.
Agree. I was playing Marine the other day and had 3 Skulks ambush me.
I started jumping around in circles and ended up killing all 3 of them.
My aim is definitely not the best, and for me to be able to solo 3 Skulks (who got the drop on me I might add) felt extremely unbalanced.
I'm thinking until they fix these changes I'm going to spend all my Skulk time running away from Marines and just going after Extractors and such. It's pretty bad when I feel confident enough as a Marine to adventure out solo.
If 3 skulks got the drop on you and didn't kill you, the issue isn't in marine jumping.
Considering I play with and against comp players that frequent pubs nearly every day, I'd have to disagree and ask you who are you that you think you're better than everyone on this forum? Sounds like a huge amount of childish arrogance to me.
And what about the good skulk that still complains about it ? Meaning top 3 scores only as skulk, no fade and / or onos involved at combat or Classic (would be unfair on pubs). What about them ?
Everybody that possess eyes can see the huge lag issue it involves and the lottery SJ is right now.
Too big, won't pass.
Then there is obvious whacky effectiveness to skill scaling. It takes way more 'skill' to track and time bites than it does to randomly press a strafe direction and jump. It's not enough to argue about strafe jump just from the competitive perspective.
Also always thought that movement should all be able to break down into your fundamental wasd, accel, speed, air behaviour. Movement should be consistent and intuitively flow on from the fundamentals - just like bhop did. To me, gimmicky strafe jumps that behave more like magic spell cd's is just not clean design for an fps. That you need a cd on it at all is a warning sign.
Strafe + jump could then restored to its previous behaviour (no height penalty, no speed gain).
It doesn't sound like you understand how it works atm, or worked in the past, at all...
To give you the benefit of the doubt, what I mean is I want jump height to be consistent for all types of jump directions and button combination jumps*. Exactly like it was prior to the strafe long jump. Some of the main things marine movement actually needed back before all this was higher accel, more standardised weapon weights, and slightly higher base speed, not some herp derp magical dodge. So you could actually juke. You know, faking and baiting skulk movements, instead of random direction long jumping (left or right? Who cares, just pick one - lean to your direction bias and call it 'creativity'. Easy mode shotgun him either direction). The kind of movement that is the right balance of reactionary and initiative. The kind of movement that both requires creativity, and allows players to show creativity.
*edit* To make this clearer, i should also point to the example of vortex. Yes, you can still be super creative, but you don't need to. Basically that you get way too healthy effectiveness-for-effort at low effort levels.
Right now with the strafe jump dodge, you cannot strafe jump over railings because your feet will always clip it and you will land on the other side with no speed and a huge slowdown penalty, put in to balance the just anywhere normal strafe long jumping. And that's if you're lucky - sometimes you'll just bang against the railing or vertical step and subsequently die. The rules for strafe long jumping are just not consistent with the rest of the movement model. That I have no control over what kind of strafe jump (normal/consistent jump, or magic spell long jump) i want to do is a huge weakness.
Also, people forget what the main purpose of jump is for a ranged class. Something that allows you to shoot in a direction more than 90 degrees off your direction of movement, take advantage of any air control, and reach higher places. It should NOT be some super spangly dodge move for gaining distance in and of itself. Jump and lower backward speed modifier are hand in hand mechanics that create the interesting dynamic of combat strafe jumping. Strafe jumps should be fundamentally motivated from this core, and not because you get some random bonus to horizontal speed and thus distance.
*Except for lower jump height on repeated jump spam. That rule in particular makes sense and is not unreasonable.
Every time I launch NS2 the SJ irritates me more than the previous time. I really hope this is fixed in the next patch, heck, I'd gladly take a patch whose sole purpose it is is to fix this.
Agreed, I would play with alien vision off if I could as well. Hopefully that is a feature coming (turn on/off) glowing outlines
Clipping the railing is exactly what you want to do... it's an elevated jump
Your entire argument was "L2P", so either you're presuming the people in this thread that have a problem with it are just bad and lying if they say they aren't bad or you're presuming that after a certain level (one which the people disagreeing with you you are again presuming they have not attained) this is not a problem, and you are indeed at that level.
L2P arguments never come from a place of maturity or understanding, come off as elitist, and generally don't help the conversation in any way.
I do think skulks are overly effective against exos, though, so perhaps his point was sincere.
The point is that very good players have a problem with the jumping and yet you say:"Marines are stupid easy to track, you noobs have had easy mode for far too long."
Well if you're calling these people noobs you imply you're better than them - I would bet that you're not better than all of them, which is essentially Asmodies' point.
I am having issues with the awful alien sight, though.
IAMKING's mechanically best fade + meatmachine + any 4 other players = premiere division champions 2013. Book it!
Aren't marines are designed to win 1x1 and skulks should work in teams to take them down.
I mean it sucks but...
The design principle was actually the opposite, aliens were suppose to work more autonomously while the marines needed to stick in small groups in order to not get picked off. Aside from the design principle the mechanic has a super low skill requirement to use to gain a ton of effectiveness, while to combat it takes much more ability. Unless you're the aforementioned predicted premiere division champs of 2013 apparently....
Yeah, i really hoped they fixed it for 255, then 256... nope.
Atleast they should remove the air control, it's like flying a plane.
Skulk was so much more fun before with old alien vision and no michael jordan jumps.
I understand they want to go to the 50 50 balance but it feels like they are tinkering on the wrong things.
I would prefer if they make each armor upgrade 5 res cheaper. Needing one more bite can make it already a little tougher.
And make the lerk 30 res again, you can go lerk so early ingame and it's a real killer machine.
And there are tons of other options to tweak balance but rescent changes is like touching the core to deep.