Well I'm with NeoQuaker on this one, I find the longer games the most rewarding because you have the time and incentive to develop a cohesive team on the fly with pub players, and (if the majority of players are semi competent) long games imply a bunch of well balanced pitched battles and at least one or two 'game changing' strategic victories. The wins are so much more satisfying when you know the game is well balanced, but win or lose these games are still the best because when its that close *everyone* on the team knows they made a difference.
All that stuff is exactly why I love 30+ min games. Well said. 15-20 minutes is not enough time to get to know the play styles and strengths of your pub team and develop strategies and execute plays based on that.
See, I don't want to be that guy but... You say it's in a good place, then you say one of the best matches you ever played lasted 55-60 minutes. Now I'm getting the razor out to attempt to kill myself by the 25 minute mark, so saying it's in a good place frustrates me. I just can't even value that as an opinion, which makes no logical sense, so that's pretty bad.
What? The time a round takes dictates the fun you have in it?
I know you primarily play organized matches and not pub, but its like we are playing two different games because i have definitely had games that were so well balanced they went back and forth for 40 minutes and it was tons of fun, ending with everyone in the RR saying "Very GG!" Etc!
The time the round takes as a single variable doesn't determine how much fun I have. It's the fact that 9/10 these rounds turn from playing into chore doing after 20 minutes. That is, after you realise there is just no way you can defeat the entire enemy team on your own, and your team sure isn't going to help you do it, it just becomes a loop of running between extractors or phase gates. That's it, for another 30 minutes, you run around the map killing pests. It's so mind numbingly boring that I on occasion have just left half way through, I WANT to win, and I think that it IS possible to do so eventually, but the amount of bs I have to wade through to get there just isn't worth it. The good thing about shorter games, those that are less than 15 minutes, is that the winning team PROBABLY got their full tech, so they are rewarded for playing well, then they get to win. That's it. In longer games I would graph fun as an upside down bell curve, with the bell part significantly long and low.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@ghosthree3
Fair enough.
I have had that happen too, but i have definitely had those games that go on NOT because either team is uncoordinated or incapable, but because they are just that well balanced (freak occurrence) and therefore it goes back and forth.
And its not like the tech changes are locked into boring Exo vs Onos matches either. I mean i love the first 5 minutes of every NS2 as long as its not a stomp, Marine vs skulk early game = tons of fun. But i've also had games where all the Exos get destroyed and all the Onos die off, and suddenly we're back to LMGs vs Skulks at the 35 minute mark!
I guess its just highly dependent on the situation/round..
Good gameplay:
The base lifeform / marine interactions and map control / contestion mechanics to put it succinctly, albeit tersely.
An example to help you understand would be:
Base skulk vs base lmg. The overall dynamic of this interaction was enough of a positive gameplay aspect that I could actually enjoy ns2 for nearly a year and a half. Based solely on the first 8 minutes of any game. It was sufficiently rewarding piece of gameplay, and rarely felt unfair or contrived to "level the playing field." Even in spite of never having even attempted to implement a proper movement mechanic I can still say this gameplay aspect was the best thing ns2 did or had. Everything else is just downhill unfortunately.
This interaction gets progressively less rewarding and more random / arbitrary as the tech tree progresses. Whether it be unrewarding cloaking mechanics, simple shotgun mechanics with no movement mechanics to oppose it, and the endless litany of obscuring crap that just piles onto the positive gameplay aspects for no particularly good reason.
I'm sure you could just look up some ancient thread by yuuki or zeikko or elodea or whoever about all the negative design elements of NS2. All the negative crap by design becomes progressively more prevalent in a game. So simple logic tells you As time progresses, negative gameplay elements accumulate. QED: NS2's similarity to a turd sandwich is proportional to time.
I can't speak for the current state of the game (because I don't have the motivation or time to play it anymore), but I'm as confident as can be that this is all still sufficiently accurate.
But i've also had games where all the Exos get destroyed and all the Onos die off, and suddenly we're back to LMGs vs Skulks at the 35 minute mark!
This is one of the reasons I find it so frustrating. You play for ages, then you're back at square 1 eventually during an attempt to win the game, you have no pres, and knowing pubs, marines have max 3-4 res towers, so you're not getting another JP/SG combo any time soon (the only viable late game build if you're trying to get stuff done without more than one other person backup). You now spend ages running around waiting for the res, and when you finally get it, you go and lose it again because you get caught out trying to be useful instead of camping a tech point you own. If you're an alien, perhaps you lose a life form eventually, now aliens PROBABLY have more res towers than marines in pub so you might get it back soon, but that's still another 7-8 minutes+ of running around as a skulk either biting res nodes or running into marine encampments and getting destroyed.
I don't understand why most of the NS2 pub populous thinks this is fun, it truly baffles me.
EDIT: I also think @eh? makes really good points, and don't find myself disagreeing with any of it.
In regards to @ghosthree3 's comments:
I only pub and on a rare occasion merc. I know exactly the situation you are talking about. In those situations where the gameplay gets stale and I am unable to get back up where I can not pull anything decent I start to try to hold the marines back as much as I can on a macro level. I will try to force a good portion of the marines to defend so that the defending aliens almost have to push out. It usually does not take long.
@ghosthree3, here's a pubber's answer: I like to struggle. I like it when everything doesn't go just as planned. I like it when something unexpected happens. I like it when I'm forced to go out there without my shotty and jetpack, vulnerable, hiding when I can, to make a ninja phasegate or maybe just kill a harvester to annoy those pesky aliens. I like it when our exo/arc train is utterly decimated even though we tried all that we could to reach that hive. And I like it when the opposing team is trying just as hard as we do. When we get beaconed to main base just when we start to punish that hive. When gorge tunnels pop up here and there. When those damn aliens just keep coming.
Now, I don't like it when the team is brainless and just go like a zombie horde against a solid alien defense. It's awful when the team mentality is to just react to alien attacks and when they won't open that map, look it and think where they really should go to do some real damage. Stupidity (or perhaps lack of experience) is infuriating. Sometimes I quit, too.
When I read your post, it looks like you value higher lifeforms and better equipment, because then you can really deal damage, force your way through enemies and carry your slacking team to victory. Without those tools your options are limited and you get culled by aliens when no1 will help you. That's why losing lots of pres stings. I, on the other hand, have sometimes spent entire matches as a skulk, sitting on 100 res, hunting for those marines and harassing resource towers and having a great time. Usually in matches that have been the balanced ones with lots of attacking and defending and losing hives and tech.
I think the reason why you so dislike long matches is because you just don't like setbacks. And the reason why I like long matches is because I like to overcome setbacks (with a team that thinks).
For you the perfect match is when your team is like a clockwork. For me the perfect match is when there is two clockworks.
Comments
All that stuff is exactly why I love 30+ min games. Well said. 15-20 minutes is not enough time to get to know the play styles and strengths of your pub team and develop strategies and execute plays based on that.
I know you primarily play organized matches and not pub, but its like we are playing two different games because i have definitely had games that were so well balanced they went back and forth for 40 minutes and it was tons of fun, ending with everyone in the RR saying "Very GG!" Etc!
All the good gameplay aspects of NS2 dissipate as the round progresses. That's just a design flaw.
What are the good gameplay aspects?
Fair enough.
I have had that happen too, but i have definitely had those games that go on NOT because either team is uncoordinated or incapable, but because they are just that well balanced (freak occurrence) and therefore it goes back and forth.
And its not like the tech changes are locked into boring Exo vs Onos matches either. I mean i love the first 5 minutes of every NS2 as long as its not a stomp, Marine vs skulk early game = tons of fun. But i've also had games where all the Exos get destroyed and all the Onos die off, and suddenly we're back to LMGs vs Skulks at the 35 minute mark!
I guess its just highly dependent on the situation/round..
The base lifeform / marine interactions and map control / contestion mechanics to put it succinctly, albeit tersely.
An example to help you understand would be:
Base skulk vs base lmg. The overall dynamic of this interaction was enough of a positive gameplay aspect that I could actually enjoy ns2 for nearly a year and a half. Based solely on the first 8 minutes of any game. It was sufficiently rewarding piece of gameplay, and rarely felt unfair or contrived to "level the playing field." Even in spite of never having even attempted to implement a proper movement mechanic I can still say this gameplay aspect was the best thing ns2 did or had. Everything else is just downhill unfortunately.
This interaction gets progressively less rewarding and more random / arbitrary as the tech tree progresses. Whether it be unrewarding cloaking mechanics, simple shotgun mechanics with no movement mechanics to oppose it, and the endless litany of obscuring crap that just piles onto the positive gameplay aspects for no particularly good reason.
I'm sure you could just look up some ancient thread by yuuki or zeikko or elodea or whoever about all the negative design elements of NS2. All the negative crap by design becomes progressively more prevalent in a game. So simple logic tells you As time progresses, negative gameplay elements accumulate. QED: NS2's similarity to a turd sandwich is proportional to time.
I can't speak for the current state of the game (because I don't have the motivation or time to play it anymore), but I'm as confident as can be that this is all still sufficiently accurate.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/117596/ns2-and-its-focus-on-negative-abilities/p1
This is one of the reasons I find it so frustrating. You play for ages, then you're back at square 1 eventually during an attempt to win the game, you have no pres, and knowing pubs, marines have max 3-4 res towers, so you're not getting another JP/SG combo any time soon (the only viable late game build if you're trying to get stuff done without more than one other person backup). You now spend ages running around waiting for the res, and when you finally get it, you go and lose it again because you get caught out trying to be useful instead of camping a tech point you own. If you're an alien, perhaps you lose a life form eventually, now aliens PROBABLY have more res towers than marines in pub so you might get it back soon, but that's still another 7-8 minutes+ of running around as a skulk either biting res nodes or running into marine encampments and getting destroyed.
I don't understand why most of the NS2 pub populous thinks this is fun, it truly baffles me.
EDIT: I also think @eh? makes really good points, and don't find myself disagreeing with any of it.
I only pub and on a rare occasion merc. I know exactly the situation you are talking about. In those situations where the gameplay gets stale and I am unable to get back up where I can not pull anything decent I start to try to hold the marines back as much as I can on a macro level. I will try to force a good portion of the marines to defend so that the defending aliens almost have to push out. It usually does not take long.
Now, I don't like it when the team is brainless and just go like a zombie horde against a solid alien defense. It's awful when the team mentality is to just react to alien attacks and when they won't open that map, look it and think where they really should go to do some real damage. Stupidity (or perhaps lack of experience) is infuriating. Sometimes I quit, too.
When I read your post, it looks like you value higher lifeforms and better equipment, because then you can really deal damage, force your way through enemies and carry your slacking team to victory. Without those tools your options are limited and you get culled by aliens when no1 will help you. That's why losing lots of pres stings. I, on the other hand, have sometimes spent entire matches as a skulk, sitting on 100 res, hunting for those marines and harassing resource towers and having a great time. Usually in matches that have been the balanced ones with lots of attacking and defending and losing hives and tech.
I think the reason why you so dislike long matches is because you just don't like setbacks. And the reason why I like long matches is because I like to overcome setbacks (with a team that thinks).
For you the perfect match is when your team is like a clockwork. For me the perfect match is when there is two clockworks.