Why Do People Think Fades Are Unfair?
Forlorn
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">They are not....</div> I think the idea that fades are unbalenced is complete and total garbage.
A team of marines with half upgrades (such as a HMG, lv.2 armor) is good against half upgraded aliens (fades, with adren and carapace or regen.)
Unfortionatly, you never even see this, because of the fact that phase gates dominate the marine stratagy completely wasting their creds on agresive rushing tatics, which if they fail, will doom the game to marines.
How often do you see half upgraded marines vs. half upgrade aliens?
That's the question I must present to people who think fades are unfair.
I can't say how much I have seen people call fades unfair; I have simply lost count.
I like how the dev. team in 1.04 is making the splash damage lower by almost 1/4 (which is very considerable) but even now in 1.03 fades are unfair by the smallest margin.
A team of marines with half upgrades (such as a HMG, lv.2 armor) is good against half upgraded aliens (fades, with adren and carapace or regen.)
Unfortionatly, you never even see this, because of the fact that phase gates dominate the marine stratagy completely wasting their creds on agresive rushing tatics, which if they fail, will doom the game to marines.
How often do you see half upgraded marines vs. half upgrade aliens?
That's the question I must present to people who think fades are unfair.
I can't say how much I have seen people call fades unfair; I have simply lost count.
I like how the dev. team in 1.04 is making the splash damage lower by almost 1/4 (which is very considerable) but even now in 1.03 fades are unfair by the smallest margin.
Comments
Mid-Game:
Aliens: 2 Hives, Fades/Umbra/Webs.
Marines: HA, 3ish Upgrades. HMGs.
The problem is (in my eyes anyway), since marines require a team effort to survive, this gives aliens an easy dominence over map resources. Attaking a res tower as a marine is foolhardy without a couple backup marines. As an alien- a skulk can take one out in short order. So if marines take one hive, and then upgrade appropriately the odds are they have little left to outfit the marine team.
I understand that public servers are still running into the newbish factor- marine team not working together and such. Finding a good Comm is even harder. The more I look at it the more I say it's a player issue not a game balance issue. PERHAPS the aliens have an easier time dominating resources- but a skulk with 33 resources is no better than a skulk with 4. Keep that in mind.
For refrence value, I typically play in games where it's 8-10 on a team. I try to stay away from the 32 player servers.. just seems way too crowded for NS.
I'm not sure how much sense I just made. Brains a little numb from trying to play (and failing horribly) with my weak caboose computer.
Level 3 carpace + adrenaline, almost all fades will have this.
Fade can take a ridiculous amount of punishment and kill a marine in about 1.5 seconds LONG range, even quicker closer in.
Fades are inevitible, if marines are to stop them (they HAVE to stop them or they will almost always lose) they have to rush 2 hives, sparing on any upgrades.
If marines are able to upgrade themselves they stand a chance, the only thing good against a fade is heavy armour, at least then you have a chance of killing it alone.
and a team of fades is crap against marines?
I was just in a game, marines had literally ALL upgrades and we were a bunch of fades with NO defence chamebrs left and no way to rebuild them. 4 fades in processing bombarding 4 marines with everything on them, reduced them to nothing pretty quickly.
Splash damage is necessary, but the only true way to reduce fade effectiveness enough to make it fair is to limit the amount of damage they can take with level 3 carpace to level 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a skulk to get all those upgrades and become a fade, the aliens needed 80 for the hive, 44 for the fade, and 4 for both ugpgrades.
This is just a start.
Fades cost massive amounts of cash.
Why do the aliens have all this cash?
Cause the marine team is too busy rushing and sucking hardcore to bother controling the maps reasources.
The fades are this powerful only because the aliens could afford them.
Also, half upgraded marines could wipe out fades with teamwork.
HMG's, with lv. 2 armor upgrade and lv. 1 weapon upgrade is usually enough to handle fades.
Sadly, I hardly ever see a marine team half upgraded if upgraded AT ALL...
Fades aren't unfair.
Don't camp while being attacked, charge them down!
On almost any public server, the average marine team will be clobbered by fades. This has happened to me countless times, and I have done it countless times. I feel guilty every time we get fades but it's also fun, in a perverse way, because 9 times out of 10 it's a cake walk and all I have to do is snipe and run, snipe and run, snipe and run. And with celerity no-one can catch me and with regeneration no-one can kill me.
Level 3 carpace + adrenaline, almost all fades will have this.
Fade can take a ridiculous amount of punishment and kill a marine in about 1.5 seconds LONG range, even quicker closer in.
Fades are inevitible, if marines are to stop them (they HAVE to stop them or they will almost always lose) they have to rush 2 hives, sparing on any upgrades.
If marines are able to upgrade themselves they stand a chance, the only thing good against a fade is heavy armour, at least then you have a chance of killing it alone.
and a team of fades is crap against marines?
I was just in a game, marines had literally ALL upgrades and we were a bunch of fades with NO defence chamebrs left and no way to rebuild them. 4 fades in processing bombarding 4 marines with everything on them, reduced them to nothing pretty quickly.
Splash damage is necessary, but the only true way to reduce fade effectiveness enough to make it fair is to limit the amount of damage they can take with level 3 carpace to level 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a skulk to get all those upgrades and become a fade, the aliens needed 80 for the hive, 44 for the fade, and 4 for both ugpgrades.
This is just a start.
Fades cost massive amounts of cash.
Why do the aliens have all this cash?
Cause the marine team is too busy rushing and sucking hardcore to bother controling the maps reasources.
The fades are this powerful only because the aliens could afford them.
Also, half upgraded marines could wipe out fades with teamwork.
HMG's, with lv. 2 armor upgrade and lv. 1 weapon upgrade is usually enough to handle fades.
Sadly, I hardly ever see a marine team half upgraded if upgraded AT ALL...
Fades aren't unfair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All that means crap when you remember that aliens have their OWN resource pool. Sure they may need 80 for a hive, but you're forgetting only ONE ALIEN has to make a sacrafice, not the whole team.
Don't camp while being attacked, charge them down!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YEP
Hahahahahahahah.... yea right.... I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT. I know whenever I'm a fade carapace is the LAST thing i would get....<span style='color:red'> Regeneration + Adrenaline</span> is probably the most widely used combo for fades.... Carapace ads 25 armour. OoOoOoOoOoOoOoO big difference. Doesn't help worth a crap when you get hit and down to low health. THEN you have to go find the hive, a gorg OR a defense chamber to heal back up. It's useless getting Carapace when your a fade. If your a skulk? <span style='color:red'> Silence + Carapace </span> RULES!!!
With carapace, I basically never die, unless I do a suicide rush. Without, it is alot more risky... you make that blup blup healing noise, and you die alot faster.
Ravlen
As for fades being overpowered, yes they are, if you try to kill them head on. Think like a skulk: If you cannot kill them head on get them from behind.
Hahahahahahahah.... yea right.... I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT. I know whenever I'm a fade carapace is the LAST thing i would get....<span style='color:red'> Regeneration + Adrenaline</span> is probably the most widely used combo for fades.... Carapace ads 25 armour. OoOoOoOoOoOoOoO big difference. Doesn't help worth a crap when you get hit and down to low health. THEN you have to go find the hive, a gorg OR a defense chamber to heal back up. It's useless getting Carapace when your a fade. If your a skulk? <span style='color:red'> Silence + Carapace </span> RULES!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you realise that level 3 carapace gives you 60% Damage Reduction.
Also, why haven't people figured out that fades take minimal damage when they blink in to a turret, swipe it a few times, and blink out? If you do that, go and regenrate at a nearby defense tower (or use regeneration ability, or if you are lucky, have a field medic gorge buddy), then attack again, you can QUICKLY take down a marine establishment alone whereas a bunch of acid-rocket spamming fades would have taken at least 10 minutes doing the same.
Tell you the truth, guys, I think leaving acid rockets in gives the marines a bit of an advantage over your average fade player. If acid rockets were nerfed, and all the fades learned how to use their blink and claws, you would die even faster than you do now. Plus, you wouldn't be able to use that silly "chase the fades down with your LMG's!" tactic - they'd be right up in your face, slashing away <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
However, if they put their res into armor/ammo upgrades, then you will find regular Marines will be lethal against fades.
I normally play alien and was playing a 7v7 last night. The other team had level 2 upgrades and was smoking us. When we attacked they fired and damaged the fades, then they reloaded and rushed the fades. Guess what? No more fades. We had 3 hives (2 up, one building) but never stayed alive as fades long enough to do much damage, and so they ended up winning.
Phase rush is a choice you make, and getting greedy (trying to take more than one hive early in the game) is something you are taking big a chance with. If you put off getting those ammo/armor upgrades, then don't expect to hold off fades.
Marine are becoming so conditioned to phase rush that they forget there is a WHOLE GAME out there waiting to be played.
Regards,
Savant
Shoot at a fade, it'll fire at you back...then it'll suddenly turn and run/blink. this isn't because you're getting close, it could just swipe you, it's because you've got it down to less than 100 health, and probably nearer 60 health. if a fade turns tail and runs it's either a newbie fade which means he'll be easy to kill, or he's very close to death which means that you just have to keep pursuing! If it means you die from OC fire because you're too close to the def chambers being put up just after you've taken that fade out, so be it! it's a small price to pay, don't let that fade get back up to 200+ hp!
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Edit: Ok, thead is so old it is nolonger able to be linked. So here is what I was getting at:
___________________________
Few days ago I found a good server. I saw the marines win a few games, and that made me blink in surprise.
Today I went in that server as an alien. After maybe ten minutes we had two hives up and most of our ten person team was going fade (myself included).
We were playing the map...crap how do I say this, there is a room with two resorce nodes. This is where we met them. They had maybe two turrets there, not counting a seige turret. There were maybe three or four guys there, nothing five fades can't handle, right?
Wrong. We all rushed in there, acid rockets blazing. They slaughtered us in less than a minute. Three guys in Heavy armor using HMGs cut us to gibblets. THREE GUYS!!! I got in some guys face and didn't even have time to swipe. We used so many resorces in that one fight that we didn't have enough to keep pressing. The game was soon over.
I've heard people tell me in the suggestion forum that you can take a fade down with a LMG. I never bleived that but with a comm like they had I think you could. He upgraded them so fast we had no chance to react. He placed seige cannons in places that made it so we couldn't build more resorce nodes.
I have decided that my constant losses are not for "balance issues," but because I suck. I have no "L33t Skillz."
There. I said it. IS EVERYONE HAPPY NOW!!!1 I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE, DO YOU HEAR ME! MUHHAHAHAHHAHAH...man I got the munchies...
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You're probably talking about Atmospheric Processing in ns_caged (feedwater, engine & refinery hives), or holo room in ns_hera (data proc, vent, archiving hives), or fusion reactor in ns_nothing. (has water @ double point)
<nods> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just storm them and watch them run for their lives, hehe.
1 fade is manageable 2 = oh o
3 together= no chance.
Also depends on upgrades and there skill.
As has already been stated a Fade's true strength is seen when they are seiging in groups. A single fade is tough, but manageable, but three can take out a whole base.
The same can be said of HMG equipped HA players. One or two can be taken with a little bit of effort. But when three or more come together you really don't have much of a prayer.
armory - 25 res
upgraded armory - 35 res
arms lab - 50 res
prototype lab - 45 res
researching HA - 50 res
upgrades - something around 40 most likely
------
that's 225 resources just to be able to buy HA+HMG, plus 50 res (60 with a welder) for the whole set
Meanwhile, aliens need:
hive - 80 res
3 DCs - 14*3 = 42 res
3 MCs - 14*3 = 42 res
------
164 to get to the point where a fade is possible (about 2/3 of the marine cost), and only 48 res for a fully upgraded fade
Granted, that 164 has to be gathered by a single gorge, who only recieves maybe 30% of a team's resource (more in smaller games), and the 48 likewise has to be payed by individual aliens, but the commander also probably has to buy IPs (around 30 res), an observatory and maybe some turrets and phases, as well as maybe a few res towers, which can reach up well over 100 altogether, while a gorge usually only has to get about 44 - 66 res worth of resource towers before setting up the second hive. The aliens are also much better able to actually hold their resource nodes, as they all are instantly informed if a marine attacks a node, and it takes a single marine ages to knife a res tower, while a single skulk can take down a res tower in seconds.
Basically, the game is set up in such a way that it is very difficult for marines to have the sort of equipment needed to take out fades unless they just go all out on res-hunting and don't bother about hives, in which case they'll likely have to fight not fades but a herd of onos with support from bile bombs and spore clouds.
I've only seen a marine team counter fades with large amounts of resources and HA+HMG once. I've also once seen marines win a game where aliens held all three hives. Such things don't happen often, and that alone is proof that once aliens get fades, it's game over.
Eater.
Bullcrap.
You have the common misconception that with regen you are very powerful.
First off, you can't always run, because if you can't run faster than bullets, ever.
All a marine has to do is ambush you.
Also, with regen, you get no armor bonuses so you are actually VERY easy to kill if the mariens can aim...
Carapace is the only real way for fades to go (or, if you lost your second hive, redemption so you won't lose your fade ability) if you are playing against experienced players.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>1.03 Damage Statistics</a>
Go there. As you can plainly see, a fade with regeneration is crap compared to a fade with carapace.
A fade with carapace is 150% times stronger and more durable, while a fade with regen can be killed under one LMG clip.
Fades aren't that invincible esp. when you have upgrades they become even more vulerable.
so...the most you'll ever need to fire at a fade to kill it is 350 hp's worth of bullets. I can't understand at all where you get the 715, its not like the armour negates a percentage of the damage it sustains, it's just that the higher the percentage the armour takes, the more of the individual shot is taken off of the armour before health.
if a 100 hp damage hits a fade, say from a nade, and that fade has (somehow) 40% armour benefit, then that means that 40 hp comes off of the armour and 60 from the health...nothing is lost
Please explain to this confused and bemused person exactly why he would need to shoot 715hp's worth of bullets at a carapace clad fade?
-Lee
so...the most you'll ever need to fire at a fade to kill it is 350 hp's worth of bullets. I can't understand at all where you get the 715, its not like the armour negates a percentage of the damage it sustains, it's just that the higher the percentage the armour takes, the more of the individual shot is taken off of the armour before health.
if a 100 hp damage hits a fade, say from a nade, and that fade has (somehow) 40% armour benefit, then that means that 40 hp comes off of the armour and 60 from the health...nothing is lost
Please explain to this confused and bemused person exactly why he would need to shoot 715hp's worth of bullets at a carapace clad fade?
-Lee<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoL...
Well, many people fail to realize this, but carapace makes it so 60% of damage is negated whenever you hit their armor.
This is of course, when carapace is lv. 3. At lv. 2 40% is negated, at lv. 1 20 % is negated.
While you do get additional armor from carapace, the real draw is the fact armor becomes tough as nails.
The downside to carapace is that it's not half as good for making gurrilla tatics, which is why carapace is fair.
If you play against half decent players however, carapace is a MUST.