It did earlier though, he was showing as 1 post. Guess he tried to erase his 1st and didn't happen (being as it is No1 in a thread) but his post count did update. Interesting
So yes, I don't want to play with bad players in a pub and if I see a competent player in a server, I will probably join their team. For the sake of my own sanity. A 10 minute win versus a 45 minute shitshow of balanced incompetency and I will take the stacked 10 min game everytime. A lesser of two evils. This game is not fun when you have armor 0 at 17 minutes. This game is not fun when you commander is dropping turrets in every close room while aliens are taking over the rest of the map. This game is not fun when you asked for welding and your teammate runs off in the other direction.
I couldn't care less about my k:d or winning, but the last thing I want to do is play a "balanced" incompetent shitshow of a game with no teamwork or help. If I am a stacker because of that, then so be it.
Hmm.
A while ago someone complained about stacking, you answered him that you're sick of people complaining about better players.
Then you continued and said people should be able to play on the same team because they might be friends.
And recently you disagreed with me when I said experienced people shouldn't play on rookie servers if they're stomping and there's a normal server available.
And NOW, you have found "better teamwork" as an excuse for stacking.
Yeah, guess what, I don't believe you. You just want the better team. The fact alone that you can ENJOY a stacked game tells as much. To me a stacked game equals a complete waste of time, I don't know the level of lame you must reach to consider it fun in any way, and I cannot fathom what makes you pick it instead a game that, while frustrating, is also challenging and possibly rewarding.
Also complete disregard of the fun of others makes you the douche of the day.
So yes, I don't want to play with bad players in a pub and if I see a competent player in a server, I will probably join their team. For the sake of my own sanity. A 10 minute win versus a 45 minute shitshow of balanced incompetency and I will take the stacked 10 min game everytime. A lesser of two evils. This game is not fun when you have armor 0 at 17 minutes. This game is not fun when you commander is dropping turrets in every close room while aliens are taking over the rest of the map. This game is not fun when you asked for welding and your teammate runs off in the other direction.
I couldn't care less about my k:d or winning, but the last thing I want to do is play a "balanced" incompetent shitshow of a game with no teamwork or help. If I am a stacker because of that, then so be it.
A while ago someone complained about stacking, you answered him that you're sick of people complaining about better players.
Then you continued and said people should be able to play on the same team because they might be friends.
And recently you disagreed with me when I said experienced people shouldn't play on rookie servers if they're stomping and there's a normal server available.
And NOW, you have found "better teamwork" as an excuse for stacking.
These are all legitimate reasons to "stack".
I gain no enjoyment from a 1 hour game that has every right to end in 10 minutes, only extended artificially because poor teamwork on one side. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is almost holding off a massive attack onto a major position alone just to die and see 4 people jerking off in main not going through a tele? Even after I and the commander have repeatedly told people to go through? It's not fun, its frustrating.
I enjoy playing with responsive people who know how to play the game. Thats all i ask. I don't care about losing or winning, I care about enjoying the game. If i'm with a team of scrubs and they're all talking and trying and having fun I'll join that team every time.
But if the only people who are talking are the only people who know how to play, i'll play with them.
Friends should be able to play with friends. I pick servers based on ping and server stability, if thats a rookie server, oh well, sometimes It's all I got. I'm not playing with 150 ping and 50% server stability with 3 people when I can join a "rookie friendly" server at 50 and 100%. Sorry, I'm just not.
I don't think its a learn to play issue, it's a learn to think problem. You don't have to have 1500 hours to understand the comm saying "PG up in ore, phase in don't shoot anything yet" but needless to say the second rine in starts knifing a cyst ... And warehouse is safe for another day..
This action here is the reason players "stack" not to win, or K/D whore, but to avoid the frustration that is the incompetence of so many people. I play KKG which is one of 2-4 populated servers that are not listed as rockie friendly yet still stupidity abounds...
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
As we discuss here to find possible solutions i want to summarize what we have so far from this thread:
- People want to play with competent players in one team no matter what skill level the other team has
- Short wins are better than 45 min balanced incompetence
- No system should force players into one team
UWE want to introduce a ingame gather/matchmaking system.
Lets take a look:
The System (a teamcaptain) force players into one team wich can end in balanced incompetency and 45 min games.
Just wonder why there still ENSL gathers, hmm.
How about this:
After a roundstart the same data for the current ELO-teams beeing used for an automatic buff/debuff system and the round end after 15 min. The winner is the team with the highest score.
This would solve all of the 3 points above.
This not so serious solution is proudly present by an incompetent div3 players who didnt love the game after 3 years of serverhosting, playtesting, bugtracking,..
So yes, PaLaGi said it all. People need to learn the game.
But people won't when they have no fun while doing so. They will leave instead. No matter how much you want them to learn the game. If they have no fun while playing, they will leave. I don't understand how you can't grasp that. The noobs that are so annoying to you will only learn in a less hostile environment. Because the human brain needs gratification to learn things. This is human nature and no repeating of "But they have to learn the game." Will change that. They simply won't! They quit! And than the game dies. And you won't be able to get your own fun, that you value so much higher than that of the "annoying noobs" when nobody plays the game anymore. Actually if both of you would even try to understand this, you would help the noobs to get better. You would teach them how to be better to have more competent players in the future. But you don't care. You only see your short-term fun.
But in the end, I don't need to be angry. I just leave servers with people like you on. And many others do the same. This way you ruin the fun for yourself. And thank god there are enough players with more responsibility, intellect and less ego to play with on other servers. I get my fun out of the game. Even if you call it "incompetent shitshow".
If you enjoy the "incompetent shitshow" so much, try some games that are made for it.
Funny. So you try to dictate others to not play this game? Haha. Not gonna happen. I'll just give this back to you: If you don't enjoy how the game is played on the majority of servers, try some games that are made for people like you. With the appropriate community. Like LoL or CoD.
I sat here for a while deciding what I could post about some of the discussion in this thread. Figured I would post some truths that are about me in case other like (casual 1-2 hr a day) minded folk are out there and feel the same.
- I love this game and hope it stays around.
- I am truly a nice guy and am friendly to everyone in game.
- I do not mind greens and answer their questions/direct as needed. If they do not listen they can go uninstall as far as I am concerned.
- I am now older and married with small hours for gaming so no I will not play comp.
- No there is not a better server for me to play on as I am always better than at minimum 90% of the people in every server for NA.
- 90%+ servers in NA are "rookie friendly" so I WILL join any server that has a free slot and is under 100 ping.
- Yes I will play on the team with my friend who unfortunately for others is better than me.
- Why some people think these new players need to be spoon fed on how to play the game is beyond me. Is it this new gaming generation? IDK. I hopped into NS2 last winter sometime, had maybe 3 or 4 rounds then I had my bearings (even figured out there was a map and how to open it.. gosh). After one week I was competent. Never once did I call team stacking or rage quit (not to mention I was still having fun), I evolved my skills every time a good player splashed my brains out.
- Yes I will leave if a server admin politely asks as I recognize it is their's to manage as they see fit.
- For people who say this game will die due to people like me or that I am arrogant. Well, I disagree.
Agree/disagree as you wish guys, I am open to people trying to change my mind constructively
The LTP issue is not a problem with aim or positioning which can take hundreds of hours to refine. The LTP issue is a problem with teamwork and common sense which should come standard.
The idea of a "ninja pg/GT" is not unique to NS... Don't blow the surprise!!
The concept of rushing a single target as a group is not unique to NS ... Attack 3 structures killing none serves no purpose.
I accept ground skulks and marines who don't check corners.
I don't accept players who act as if this is the first video-game they have ever played go back to minecraft.
Commander is great if people want to play it, just not for public games as I've never had a game where both teams have a good commander. Playing just now, two games in a row the commander just left after doing nothing at all, then we lost and it ruined my enjoyment of the game. I don't see why it we cannot all build the base while playing for pub games, instead of a commander.
Another thing I don't understand is why people run into a group of marines solo.
Before a round starts people choose something like "I want to be a commander". Then everyone votes for who they want to be commander out of the list and the person with the most votes is made the commander.
I've lerked(no shame) around this topic and having read all the replies and I wanted to throw my 2 cents in:
The opposing sides on this topic both have the same goal:
Quality Matches.
I also think that both sides agree that the quality of the match is determined by the quality of teamwork present on a marine or alien team. A player, new or veteran,has an equal responsibility to facilitate this teamwork and promote high match quality. A new player does so by learning and practicing; a veteran player does so by teaching and providing competition. The issue arises when players perceive a slight by the other party.
This slight is not limited to a few veterans or a few new players and, as a result, is not personal in nature. It is the result of a highly complex but rewarding game, combining several interesting layers from different gaming types into something novel and addicting.
Now, we have two sides in need of an intermediary; this would be the role two citizens would nominally assign to government. The role of this intermediary needs to be played by ns2stats.com in the realm of NS2. The data collected could/should be used to calculate the most optimal metric for team balance. This maybe already be EOL, but the metric(called PR for the purposes of this post) should consist of the following:
Time Played = highest weighted
K:D ratio + avg. life length = second highest weighting
Wins+ wins as commander+accuracy = third highest weighting
Any metric that combines these six data points will present the most accurate picture of how good/bad a player is.
Balancing Teams based on PR will promote the best team balance, most teamwork, and highest match quality. The server skill meter could be used to depict the average PR of the players on the server. This will allow players to make informed decisions about what servers to join. Additional options could include the ability to place upper limits on PR for servers like the NOOBS only server or a lower limit on PR for the Diamond Clan server, etc.
I do not think that PR should be required for all servers, but I strongly believe servers that do employ the metric and balance based off of it will have a significantly higher level of balance and, as the system improves, teamwork as well.
Potential objections:
Objection 1: I want to play with friends, because I know the teamwork will be high.
Wolfy's response: Is the issue that you want to play with friends or you want a certain level of teamwork? If you want to play with your friends, you will have that option on servers that do not use the TR or ns2stats metrics to balance. If you really just want a certain level of teamwork, TR or ns2stats will be the best way to ensure it fairly.
Objection 2: Wolfy, what about players with high play time that still munch on the armory instead of the phase gate?
Wolfy's response: I think you are over-estimating their play time. This simply goes against the way in which humans learn and improve in any skill (repetition). I've never seen an actual example. Even so this would be the exception not the rule and statistically irrelevant.
Objection 3: Wolfy, people need to learn to play. I shouldn't have to handicap my play-style or play against/not with my friends. I want to enjoy the game too.
Wolfy's response: You're 100% correct! You shouldn't have to do any of that and you won't have to. You can play on servers not using TR or ns2stats. You can host your own server. You can start competitive play with your friends. We can consider those as your rights. But it is in the games best interest to have the collective rights of all players balanced by an intermediary. That intermediary is the system I am now championing.
I believe this system or a system like it provides the best chance for enjoyable games moving forward. It will promote quality matches by promoting quality teamwork, which will improve the overall player-base. It provides recourse(see above) for people who do not want to play balanced matches as well. It is the perfect intermediary and something NS2 definitely needs in order to grow a player base.
Comments
Nostalgia beer goggles.
(Can we lock this thread, NOBODY agrees with the OP and nothing important/good is coming out of this)
It did earlier though, he was showing as 1 post. Guess he tried to erase his 1st and didn't happen (being as it is No1 in a thread) but his post count did update. Interesting
Hmm.
A while ago someone complained about stacking, you answered him that you're sick of people complaining about better players.
Then you continued and said people should be able to play on the same team because they might be friends.
And recently you disagreed with me when I said experienced people shouldn't play on rookie servers if they're stomping and there's a normal server available.
And NOW, you have found "better teamwork" as an excuse for stacking.
Yeah, guess what, I don't believe you. You just want the better team. The fact alone that you can ENJOY a stacked game tells as much. To me a stacked game equals a complete waste of time, I don't know the level of lame you must reach to consider it fun in any way, and I cannot fathom what makes you pick it instead a game that, while frustrating, is also challenging and possibly rewarding.
Also complete disregard of the fun of others makes you the douche of the day.
These are all legitimate reasons to "stack".
I gain no enjoyment from a 1 hour game that has every right to end in 10 minutes, only extended artificially because poor teamwork on one side. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is almost holding off a massive attack onto a major position alone just to die and see 4 people jerking off in main not going through a tele? Even after I and the commander have repeatedly told people to go through? It's not fun, its frustrating.
I enjoy playing with responsive people who know how to play the game. Thats all i ask. I don't care about losing or winning, I care about enjoying the game. If i'm with a team of scrubs and they're all talking and trying and having fun I'll join that team every time.
But if the only people who are talking are the only people who know how to play, i'll play with them.
Friends should be able to play with friends. I pick servers based on ping and server stability, if thats a rookie server, oh well, sometimes It's all I got. I'm not playing with 150 ping and 50% server stability with 3 people when I can join a "rookie friendly" server at 50 and 100%. Sorry, I'm just not.
This action here is the reason players "stack" not to win, or K/D whore, but to avoid the frustration that is the incompetence of so many people. I play KKG which is one of 2-4 populated servers that are not listed as rockie friendly yet still stupidity abounds...
Amazing
- People want to play with competent players in one team no matter what skill level the other team has
- Short wins are better than 45 min balanced incompetence
- No system should force players into one team
UWE want to introduce a ingame gather/matchmaking system.
Lets take a look:
The System (a teamcaptain) force players into one team wich can end in balanced incompetency and 45 min games.
Just wonder why there still ENSL gathers, hmm.
How about this:
After a roundstart the same data for the current ELO-teams beeing used for an automatic buff/debuff system and the round end after 15 min. The winner is the team with the highest score.
This would solve all of the 3 points above.
This not so serious solution is proudly present by an incompetent div3 players who didnt love the game after 3 years of serverhosting, playtesting, bugtracking,..
But people won't when they have no fun while doing so. They will leave instead. No matter how much you want them to learn the game. If they have no fun while playing, they will leave. I don't understand how you can't grasp that. The noobs that are so annoying to you will only learn in a less hostile environment. Because the human brain needs gratification to learn things. This is human nature and no repeating of "But they have to learn the game." Will change that. They simply won't! They quit! And than the game dies. And you won't be able to get your own fun, that you value so much higher than that of the "annoying noobs" when nobody plays the game anymore. Actually if both of you would even try to understand this, you would help the noobs to get better. You would teach them how to be better to have more competent players in the future. But you don't care. You only see your short-term fun.
But in the end, I don't need to be angry. I just leave servers with people like you on. And many others do the same. This way you ruin the fun for yourself. And thank god there are enough players with more responsibility, intellect and less ego to play with on other servers. I get my fun out of the game. Even if you call it "incompetent shitshow".
Funny. So you try to dictate others to not play this game? Haha. Not gonna happen. I'll just give this back to you: If you don't enjoy how the game is played on the majority of servers, try some games that are made for people like you. With the appropriate community. Like LoL or CoD.
- I love this game and hope it stays around.
- I am truly a nice guy and am friendly to everyone in game.
- I do not mind greens and answer their questions/direct as needed. If they do not listen they can go uninstall as far as I am concerned.
- I am now older and married with small hours for gaming so no I will not play comp.
- No there is not a better server for me to play on as I am always better than at minimum 90% of the people in every server for NA.
- 90%+ servers in NA are "rookie friendly" so I WILL join any server that has a free slot and is under 100 ping.
- Yes I will play on the team with my friend who unfortunately for others is better than me.
- Why some people think these new players need to be spoon fed on how to play the game is beyond me. Is it this new gaming generation? IDK. I hopped into NS2 last winter sometime, had maybe 3 or 4 rounds then I had my bearings (even figured out there was a map and how to open it.. gosh). After one week I was competent. Never once did I call team stacking or rage quit (not to mention I was still having fun), I evolved my skills every time a good player splashed my brains out.
- Yes I will leave if a server admin politely asks as I recognize it is their's to manage as they see fit.
- For people who say this game will die due to people like me or that I am arrogant. Well, I disagree.
Agree/disagree as you wish guys, I am open to people trying to change my mind constructively
E² out
The idea of a "ninja pg/GT" is not unique to NS... Don't blow the surprise!!
The concept of rushing a single target as a group is not unique to NS ... Attack 3 structures killing none serves no purpose.
I accept ground skulks and marines who don't check corners.
I don't accept players who act as if this is the first video-game they have ever played go back to minecraft.
Another thing I don't understand is why people run into a group of marines solo.
Before a round starts people choose something like "I want to be a commander". Then everyone votes for who they want to be commander out of the list and the person with the most votes is made the commander.
I've lerked(no shame) around this topic and having read all the replies and I wanted to throw my 2 cents in:
The opposing sides on this topic both have the same goal:
Quality Matches.
I also think that both sides agree that the quality of the match is determined by the quality of teamwork present on a marine or alien team. A player, new or veteran,has an equal responsibility to facilitate this teamwork and promote high match quality. A new player does so by learning and practicing; a veteran player does so by teaching and providing competition. The issue arises when players perceive a slight by the other party.
This slight is not limited to a few veterans or a few new players and, as a result, is not personal in nature. It is the result of a highly complex but rewarding game, combining several interesting layers from different gaming types into something novel and addicting.
Now, we have two sides in need of an intermediary; this would be the role two citizens would nominally assign to government. The role of this intermediary needs to be played by ns2stats.com in the realm of NS2. The data collected could/should be used to calculate the most optimal metric for team balance. This maybe already be EOL, but the metric(called PR for the purposes of this post) should consist of the following:
Time Played = highest weighted
K:D ratio + avg. life length = second highest weighting
Wins+ wins as commander+accuracy = third highest weighting
Any metric that combines these six data points will present the most accurate picture of how good/bad a player is.
Balancing Teams based on PR will promote the best team balance, most teamwork, and highest match quality. The server skill meter could be used to depict the average PR of the players on the server. This will allow players to make informed decisions about what servers to join. Additional options could include the ability to place upper limits on PR for servers like the NOOBS only server or a lower limit on PR for the Diamond Clan server, etc.
I do not think that PR should be required for all servers, but I strongly believe servers that do employ the metric and balance based off of it will have a significantly higher level of balance and, as the system improves, teamwork as well.
Potential objections:
Objection 1: I want to play with friends, because I know the teamwork will be high.
Wolfy's response: Is the issue that you want to play with friends or you want a certain level of teamwork? If you want to play with your friends, you will have that option on servers that do not use the TR or ns2stats metrics to balance. If you really just want a certain level of teamwork, TR or ns2stats will be the best way to ensure it fairly.
Objection 2: Wolfy, what about players with high play time that still munch on the armory instead of the phase gate?
Wolfy's response: I think you are over-estimating their play time. This simply goes against the way in which humans learn and improve in any skill (repetition). I've never seen an actual example. Even so this would be the exception not the rule and statistically irrelevant.
Objection 3: Wolfy, people need to learn to play. I shouldn't have to handicap my play-style or play against/not with my friends. I want to enjoy the game too.
Wolfy's response: You're 100% correct! You shouldn't have to do any of that and you won't have to. You can play on servers not using TR or ns2stats. You can host your own server. You can start competitive play with your friends. We can consider those as your rights. But it is in the games best interest to have the collective rights of all players balanced by an intermediary. That intermediary is the system I am now championing.
I believe this system or a system like it provides the best chance for enjoyable games moving forward. It will promote quality matches by promoting quality teamwork, which will improve the overall player-base. It provides recourse(see above) for people who do not want to play balanced matches as well. It is the perfect intermediary and something NS2 definitely needs in order to grow a player base.
TL;DR: I wrote it. Please read it, it's worth it!
Thanks,
Wolfy