honestly a massive log of changes isn't going to do anything. This is little more than "I think all these things are over/underpowered"
what's the problem your addressing?
how will these changes solve it?
how will these changes impact other areas?
use as few changes as possible to find a solution. "Balance on pub servers" isn't an actionable problem.
Greetings there mate, you seem to misunderstand the meaning of the mod. Some of these changes are made because of posts I've seen on the forum and the meaning of this mod is for people to actually see those and other changes in action to see what impact they have and if they solve a problem, generate other problems etc. Thus the name "Experimental".
The idea I had with this post was to let people come with their inputs of other changes / revert changes etc so things could be tested quickly instead of waiting to see if something get's changed in a later build. You can call it a testing platform. If (most changes are never good) a change has been tested and proven good, it will get more weight behind the words of the people when it comes to it. LIkewise if a change is bad it can be tossed in the disposal bin.
@dragonmith I will see if I can play on a AU/NZ server sometime. Guess I will be destoyed by lag though. 17200 km between Oslo, Norway and Auckland, New Zealand
If you really want to experiment with balance, have your mod change one or two things at a time. Play a few days worth of games and then assess how the change affected the game. It's basically what Swelek does with the BT mod. Changing a massive list of things will make it extremely hard to tell what actually helps and what hurts the game.
I can tell you right off the bat that leap on one hive will push the game heavily in aliens favor. Anyway, its nice to see people actively trying to improve the game.
If you really want to experiment with balance, have your mod change one or two things at a time. Play a few days worth of games and then assess how the change affected the game. It's basically what Swelek does with the BT mod. Changing a massive list of things will make it extremely hard to tell what actually helps and what hurts the game.
I can tell you right off the bat that leap on one hive will push the game heavily in aliens favor. Anyway, its nice to see people actively trying to improve the game.
This might be a very good idea. Atleast now with the long "start" list I've apparently stirred up a lot of people, so if I change this into one change at a time and voting thingie there would actually be people to read and voted for this. So, this up for a new thread, where the voting can start (What to test first etc)? Or should we continue it under this thread, which would not be as "tidy" as creating a new one.
Seeing the skulk vs exo argument it was brought up again, here are my two cents on exos...
A skulk 1v1ing an exo boils down to a few different points.
1. The exo went off alone and/or didn't retreat when his welding marine died.
2. The exo has bad aim
3. Combo of 1 and 2.
Nether of these things show even the slightest hint of a game balance issue. Even pre-250 I have seen skulks solo exos... and that was when they had like 500+ eHP. Exos are suppose to be giant glass cannons. They have high dps but low mobility and can get overwhelmed easily.
Either way, something that costs 0 res should not be able to kill something that cost 40 or 60 res. 2 skulks can kill an exo before it can even start shooting the second one. I also dont agree with you that they have low mobility, they move a bit too fast imo. But hey, it's catolms mod so lets not argue too much.
Also did any1 notice that Natural Selection 2 is no longer in top 100 played games on steam? I didn't check that for a LONG time and I just happened to notice it right now.
I also do agree with you that exos often die from lack of skill. However, it seems that NS2 is lacking many skilled players especially more recently (for a couple months actually)
I have made my decision regarding this. I will be developing the mod as a ObO-basis (One by One).
This means I will make one change at a time; the change will be voted upon by those who comment on this thread.
Each update will have a _minimum_ of 3 day lifetime before it can be voted upon to keep, change or remove.
Other suggestions during the grace period will be set in a regular "prioritized queue" based on the popularity of the idea.
No change will be added without some yay's for it in this thread.
For the sake of being tidy. All ideas must come _after_ this post and not in edits of previous posts and would be nice if we used the Disagree, Agree-function for ideas posted. Please start an idea post with "IDEA". Other posts would be more like comments and discussions.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
You can start with the flamethrower. Seriously though, does ANYBODY like that it takes your energy away? Tone it down or remove the energy drain all-together please (and make it cheaper to compensate). OR... here's an idea... make attacks not REQUIRE energy BUT!!! BUT!!!!!!! They will still DRAIN energy. So when you're out of energy, you still are able to defend yourself, even if fleeing is no longer a viable option. I'm so tired of being face to face with the silly flamethrowers and just having to sit there and take it, can't run, can't fight. I usually just get up and grab a beer... will have respawned by the time I return.
EDIT: Okay to elaborate, I think that every lifeforms' primary attack should not require energy to use, but would still continue to consume energy. This makes the flamethrower disable the lifeform's special ability rather than completely shutting them down. So skulks would still have bite, but no leap; gorges would still have spit, but no billy bomb; lerks would still be able to fly and bite, but no spores/umbra; fades could swipe, but no blink, shadowstep, or vortex; and onos would still be able to gore, but no bone shield or charge.
This is still devastating for a fade. Not only does the damn thing blind you, but they can't blink away if they get really low on health. They must kill you to survive. As it is now, it can get to a point where you can't even defend yourself anymore because the flamethrower saps all your energy so ridiculously fast. So fade would still win in 1v1 against a flamethrower, but that's the FT's fault... they should stick with their teammates, who would make short work of the fade dumb enough to stick around and have their energy drained.
@BeigeAlert By editing your post; Can you elaborate for which liferoms and actions/attacks you wish'ed had not require adrenaline to perform? At the moment the strength of the flame thrower lies not in it's damage but in it's ability to disable alien functions as a support tactics. Added your idea to the currently discussed ideas on the 1st page.
@crymeariver I personally agree to tweaking on the jetpack refueling while flying and has given you an agree for that. Also added your idea to the currently discussed ideas on the 1st page. Would also be nice if you specified what kind of tweaking you are thinking of.
IDEA: Biomass Requirement for Gorge Tunnel from 0 to 2. (Disagrees and Agrees to this post will be interpreted as votes for or against this).
The reason I wish for this to be implemented is to add some fairness to the marine team as they have to wait for phasegate to be researched. They are already slower then aliens to move around the map, so why would the aliens also get their "teleportation" device earlier?.
You can start with the flamethrower. Seriously though, does ANYBODY like that it takes your energy away? Tone it down or remove the energy drain all-together please (and make it cheaper to compensate). OR... here's an idea... make attacks not REQUIRE energy BUT!!! BUT!!!!!!! They will still DRAIN energy. So when you're out of energy, you still are able to defend yourself, even if fleeing is no longer a viable option. I'm so tired of being face to face with the silly flamethrowers and just having to sit there and take it, can't run, can't fight. I usually just get up and grab a beer... will have respawned by the time I return.
The main problem would be onos imo, mostly noticeable in combat. So many times I've faced 2 or 3 marines, killed two of them with plenty of health left, and then there's the flamethrower guy. I'm just standing there in front of him holding down mouse1 waiting for something to happen, but nono 0 energy. Usually does not result in actual death since flamethrower does barely any damage but I still think it's a bit ridiculous.
How about keeping the energy drain as it is but only to a minimum level, say 5-10 percent of the base energy
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
@beigealert
Flamethrower does not remove your energy, fyi... it just inhibits the recovery of energy, momentarily.
CORRECTION:
It does remove your energy by an amount so minuscule, that this is how much is drained just before you die from continuous application of the flamethrower (the only time this occurs - the flame that continues after application does not)
I think the flamer is actually in a pretty good place right now, for everything but the cost anyway. That could be lowered a bit but I'm not totally sure if and if so by how much.
@beigealert
Flamethrower does not remove your energy, fyi... it just inhibits the recovery of energy, momentarily.
CORRECTION:
It does remove your energy by an amount so minuscule, that this is how much is drained just before you die from continuous application of the flamethrower (the only time this occurs - the flame that continues after application does not)
You are correct there mate. Here a little bit more spesific of what it does.
In addition to removal of spores it does this.
if ent:GetHealth() ~= health and HasMixin(ent, "Fire") then
ent:SetOnFire(player, self)
end
if ent.GetEnergy and ent.SetEnergy then
ent:SetEnergy(ent:GetEnergy() - kFlameThrowerEnergyDamage)
end
if Server and ent:isa("Alien") then
ent:CancelEnzyme()
end
So what we see is it damages a user by kFlamethrowerDamage (15 by default, armor reduces this some) per hit.
Then it sets the vic on fire.
Then it drains energy equal to the damage amount.
Apparently it also tries to cancel enzymeeffects.
Vics set on fire take 2 damage per second and vanishes quickly.
I feel this needs no change myself, I love it
Cheers. Chariot
If exos need help to 1v1 a skulk (one that's closed the distance) to improve balance and/or gameplay, I don't think raising the hp necessarily is the right thing to do. Cleaning up at least some of the clutter in the exo hud would help a lot.
Raising the hp would probably throw out the balance in other areas. With reduced clutter in the HUD, a skulk who's got the drop on an exo would still be a little bit hard to hit, but at least you would be able to see it.
Balance isn't perfect but this not balance that has to change in public server. It's the players.
Better make a mod "license to NS2".
This would test player on :
-map knowledge (and use of map key)
-aim (a mod already exists)
-base builder (order of things)
-commander experience so everybody have a little grasp on commander things and problems. So they would NOT insult commanders by playing so badly or make them responsible for their own failure.
I think the flamer is actually in a pretty good place right now, for everything but the cost anyway. That could be lowered a bit but I'm not totally sure if and if so by how much.
I think flamer cost should be increased, damage increased a little, make infinite ammo pool (still have to reload), and make it weightless like the pistol.
The cost to buy it is too low for a highly effective support weapon. Should be increased to 30 as it completely disables lerk abilities and gorge's bile bomb (if used correctly).
I think the flamer is actually in a pretty good place right now, for everything but the cost anyway. That could be lowered a bit but I'm not totally sure if and if so by how much.
I think flamer cost should be increased, damage increased a little, make infinite ammo pool (still have to reload), and make it weightless like the pistol.
The cost to buy it is too low for a highly effective support weapon. Should be increased to 30 as it completely disables lerk abilities and gorge's bile bomb (if used correctly).
Maybe, but the solution isn't to make the weapon even easier to use than it is now. Making the weapon weightless is a horrendously silly idea because marines without a primary weapon as is move stupid fast, and giving them a weapon that allows them to spam everywhere with zero skill required at the same time isn't going to bode well.
Ive always felt that the flamer should ignore armor, and not stop energy regen (also keeping all of its heal disable/spore removing power). Nothing is more infuriating that not even being able to attack, and having all healing and active effects removed (this is just from a having fun perspective). This also means that there is a bit of armor to at least try and escape, while allowing the flamer to be an actual threat.
And as far as 1v1 skulk v Exo, I have found that the fist is great for removing skulks from the Exo's feet, and that having dual guns is a big trade off between speed/skulk defense and DPS on higher lifeforms/hives.
Perhaps this shuold be looked at to "balance" 1v1 skulk/Exo engagements. I think it takes 3 punches to kill a skulk, reduce this to 2 by increasing damage a bit, and it will be a clear trade off.
So I take it with this we say, keep flamethrower as is but increase the punch damage the exo is doing?
Some information on what it is by default is handy to know.
Exo Melee Claw does 30 damage, 60 vs structures.
Armor damage counts double for this attack, so the attack could for instance damage you 10 health and 10 armor. (10x2 = 20)
This can be changed in many ways, the structucal 2x bonus could be changed to make it do 1v1 against armor instead of 1v0.5 and/or the base damage could be changed.
On the note of Exo HUD, I will take a look at this if there is something good I can do about it.
Done, the Exo Claw is more dangerous melee against low armored creatures such as the skulk now. To avoid it becomming devistating against structures I had to change the structural damage into another type.
At the moment the current two remaining discussed changes are some sort of tweaking to the fuel of the jetpack. I have no idea if @crymeariver is thinking of making it's refuel rate while flying down or up and the other is Gorge Tunnel Biomass Requirement.
I feel like it could be lowered, the refuel rate as is makes it very difficult to fight with a JP marine in very large open rooms. Some such rooms are starting hive locations (eg. veil/Cargo, mineshaft/Cave).
I feel like it could be lowered, the refuel rate as is makes it very difficult to fight with a JP marine in very large open rooms. Some such rooms are starting hive locations (eg. veil/Cargo, mineshaft/Cave).
Copy that. There is a couple of different ways to go about this. Lower the refuel rate (making it take longer to refuel), change it's fuel consumption (how fast it uses fuel) and/or change the "wait" time between last acceleration until it starts refueling. I will post a few numbers here to describe how it is by default.
Jetpack uses fuel at a rate of 0.23 units per second.
Jetpack refuels at a rate of 0.28 units per second.
Jetpack refueling starts after 0.4 seconds since last acceleration(use).
The closer the refuelrate is the usage rate the more difficult it will be to stay continually in the air. This would be impossible when they are the same considering a 0 delay before refuel; the refuel delay makes this impossibility arrive quicker (in other words before > 0.23 units refuel rate).
Then one has to choose which one of these to change. The lower the useage rate the longer it can stay in the air. So if this is lowered along with refuel rate you could stay longer in the air when you are refueled, but it takes longer to refuel. If one simply wants people to have to "land" more often one must either increase refuel delay or decrease refuel rate or a mix of these.
Please give input here. By testing I have found that a refuel rate at 0.23, the rest default seems to be a perfect balance here.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Just to chime in.. i've always felt engaging your jetpack should be an active tactical choice instead of practically always flying and it being a non choice.
So i'd be quite okay with the duration (amount of fuel) slightly lessened, with a larger nerf to the refueling delay.
Especially so to the latter, considering you often begin refueling before you even fall to the ground.
@IronHorse I just tested the changes you suggested to it and I must say I really love it. What I did was to increase the fuel consumption rate to 0.28 and recharge delay from 0.4 to 0.6 seconds. This resulted in a shorter continuously max flying time and the need to land more often to refuel, the height and usefullness seems to be near identical to before. In addition it creates a pretty fun effect; when you are out of gas you regain and use gas at a speed that allows you to bunny jump with the jetpack if you like.
re: flamethrower - I'm in favour of increasing its damage and decreasing its utility (and maybe a cost reduction depending on what kind of state it's in)
Regarding it's utility, the biggest thing I want removed is the hive-heal disable (or at least have this nerfed so it causes hive to heal at a slower rate). May also be in favour of removing its ability to disable crag/shift/shade active abilities.
Comments
Greetings there mate, you seem to misunderstand the meaning of the mod. Some of these changes are made because of posts I've seen on the forum and the meaning of this mod is for people to actually see those and other changes in action to see what impact they have and if they solve a problem, generate other problems etc. Thus the name "Experimental".
The idea I had with this post was to let people come with their inputs of other changes / revert changes etc so things could be tested quickly instead of waiting to see if something get's changed in a later build. You can call it a testing platform. If (most changes are never good) a change has been tested and proven good, it will get more weight behind the words of the people when it comes to it. LIkewise if a change is bad it can be tossed in the disposal bin.
@dragonmith I will see if I can play on a AU/NZ server sometime. Guess I will be destoyed by lag though. 17200 km between Oslo, Norway and Auckland, New Zealand
Cheers. Chariot
I can tell you right off the bat that leap on one hive will push the game heavily in aliens favor. Anyway, its nice to see people actively trying to improve the game.
This might be a very good idea. Atleast now with the long "start" list I've apparently stirred up a lot of people, so if I change this into one change at a time and voting thingie there would actually be people to read and voted for this. So, this up for a new thread, where the voting can start (What to test first etc)? Or should we continue it under this thread, which would not be as "tidy" as creating a new one.
Cheers. Chariot
A skulk 1v1ing an exo boils down to a few different points.
1. The exo went off alone and/or didn't retreat when his welding marine died.
2. The exo has bad aim
3. Combo of 1 and 2.
Nether of these things show even the slightest hint of a game balance issue. Even pre-250 I have seen skulks solo exos... and that was when they had like 500+ eHP. Exos are suppose to be giant glass cannons. They have high dps but low mobility and can get overwhelmed easily.
Also did any1 notice that Natural Selection 2 is no longer in top 100 played games on steam? I didn't check that for a LONG time and I just happened to notice it right now.
This means I will make one change at a time; the change will be voted upon by those who comment on this thread.
Each update will have a _minimum_ of 3 day lifetime before it can be voted upon to keep, change or remove.
Other suggestions during the grace period will be set in a regular "prioritized queue" based on the popularity of the idea.
No change will be added without some yay's for it in this thread.
For the sake of being tidy. All ideas must come _after_ this post and not in edits of previous posts and would be nice if we used the Disagree, Agree-function for ideas posted. Please start an idea post with "IDEA". Other posts would be more like comments and discussions.
Original post: UPDATED.
Cheers. Chariot
EDIT: Okay to elaborate, I think that every lifeforms' primary attack should not require energy to use, but would still continue to consume energy. This makes the flamethrower disable the lifeform's special ability rather than completely shutting them down. So skulks would still have bite, but no leap; gorges would still have spit, but no billy bomb; lerks would still be able to fly and bite, but no spores/umbra; fades could swipe, but no blink, shadowstep, or vortex; and onos would still be able to gore, but no bone shield or charge.
This is still devastating for a fade. Not only does the damn thing blind you, but they can't blink away if they get really low on health. They must kill you to survive. As it is now, it can get to a point where you can't even defend yourself anymore because the flamethrower saps all your energy so ridiculously fast. So fade would still win in 1v1 against a flamethrower, but that's the FT's fault... they should stick with their teammates, who would make short work of the fade dumb enough to stick around and have their energy drained.
As far as things that have been discussed already, webs to biomass 6 for sure.
@crymeariver I personally agree to tweaking on the jetpack refueling while flying and has given you an agree for that. Also added your idea to the currently discussed ideas on the 1st page. Would also be nice if you specified what kind of tweaking you are thinking of.
IDEA: Biomass Requirement for Gorge Tunnel from 0 to 2. (Disagrees and Agrees to this post will be interpreted as votes for or against this).
The reason I wish for this to be implemented is to add some fairness to the marine team as they have to wait for phasegate to be researched. They are already slower then aliens to move around the map, so why would the aliens also get their "teleportation" device earlier?.
Cheers. Chariot
The main problem would be onos imo, mostly noticeable in combat. So many times I've faced 2 or 3 marines, killed two of them with plenty of health left, and then there's the flamethrower guy. I'm just standing there in front of him holding down mouse1 waiting for something to happen, but nono 0 energy. Usually does not result in actual death since flamethrower does barely any damage but I still think it's a bit ridiculous.
How about keeping the energy drain as it is but only to a minimum level, say 5-10 percent of the base energy
Flamethrower does not remove your energy, fyi... it just inhibits the recovery of energy, momentarily.
CORRECTION:
It does remove your energy by an amount so minuscule, that this is how much is drained just before you die from continuous application of the flamethrower (the only time this occurs - the flame that continues after application does not)
Cheers. Chariot
You are correct there mate. Here a little bit more spesific of what it does.
In addition to removal of spores it does this.
Code
if ent:GetHealth() ~= health and HasMixin(ent, "Fire") then
ent:SetOnFire(player, self)
end
if ent.GetEnergy and ent.SetEnergy then
ent:SetEnergy(ent:GetEnergy() - kFlameThrowerEnergyDamage)
end
if Server and ent:isa("Alien") then
ent:CancelEnzyme()
end
So what we see is it damages a user by kFlamethrowerDamage (15 by default, armor reduces this some) per hit.
Then it sets the vic on fire.
Then it drains energy equal to the damage amount.
Apparently it also tries to cancel enzymeeffects.
Vics set on fire take 2 damage per second and vanishes quickly.
I feel this needs no change myself, I love it
Cheers. Chariot
Raising the hp would probably throw out the balance in other areas. With reduced clutter in the HUD, a skulk who's got the drop on an exo would still be a little bit hard to hit, but at least you would be able to see it.
Better make a mod "license to NS2".
This would test player on :
-map knowledge (and use of map key)
-aim (a mod already exists)
-base builder (order of things)
-commander experience so everybody have a little grasp on commander things and problems. So they would NOT insult commanders by playing so badly or make them responsible for their own failure.
I think flamer cost should be increased, damage increased a little, make infinite ammo pool (still have to reload), and make it weightless like the pistol.
The cost to buy it is too low for a highly effective support weapon. Should be increased to 30 as it completely disables lerk abilities and gorge's bile bomb (if used correctly).
Maybe, but the solution isn't to make the weapon even easier to use than it is now. Making the weapon weightless is a horrendously silly idea because marines without a primary weapon as is move stupid fast, and giving them a weapon that allows them to spam everywhere with zero skill required at the same time isn't going to bode well.
And as far as 1v1 skulk v Exo, I have found that the fist is great for removing skulks from the Exo's feet, and that having dual guns is a big trade off between speed/skulk defense and DPS on higher lifeforms/hives.
Perhaps this shuold be looked at to "balance" 1v1 skulk/Exo engagements. I think it takes 3 punches to kill a skulk, reduce this to 2 by increasing damage a bit, and it will be a clear trade off.
Some information on what it is by default is handy to know.
Exo Melee Claw does 30 damage, 60 vs structures.
Armor damage counts double for this attack, so the attack could for instance damage you 10 health and 10 armor. (10x2 = 20)
This can be changed in many ways, the structucal 2x bonus could be changed to make it do 1v1 against armor instead of 1v0.5 and/or the base damage could be changed.
On the note of Exo HUD, I will take a look at this if there is something good I can do about it.
Cheers. Chariot
At the moment the current two remaining discussed changes are some sort of tweaking to the fuel of the jetpack. I have no idea if @crymeariver is thinking of making it's refuel rate while flying down or up and the other is Gorge Tunnel Biomass Requirement.
Copy that. There is a couple of different ways to go about this. Lower the refuel rate (making it take longer to refuel), change it's fuel consumption (how fast it uses fuel) and/or change the "wait" time between last acceleration until it starts refueling. I will post a few numbers here to describe how it is by default.
Jetpack uses fuel at a rate of 0.23 units per second.
Jetpack refuels at a rate of 0.28 units per second.
Jetpack refueling starts after 0.4 seconds since last acceleration(use).
The closer the refuelrate is the usage rate the more difficult it will be to stay continually in the air. This would be impossible when they are the same considering a 0 delay before refuel; the refuel delay makes this impossibility arrive quicker (in other words before > 0.23 units refuel rate).
Then one has to choose which one of these to change. The lower the useage rate the longer it can stay in the air. So if this is lowered along with refuel rate you could stay longer in the air when you are refueled, but it takes longer to refuel. If one simply wants people to have to "land" more often one must either increase refuel delay or decrease refuel rate or a mix of these.
Please give input here.
By testing I have found that a refuel rate at 0.23, the rest default seems to be a perfect balance here.
Cheers. Chariot
So i'd be quite okay with the duration (amount of fuel) slightly lessened, with a larger nerf to the refueling delay.
Especially so to the latter, considering you often begin refueling before you even fall to the ground.
Cheers. Chariot
Regarding it's utility, the biggest thing I want removed is the hive-heal disable (or at least have this nerfed so it causes hive to heal at a slower rate). May also be in favour of removing its ability to disable crag/shift/shade active abilities.