To be very clear - The only changes that are planned right now, are subtle fixes to areas with broken nav mesh. But due to balance reasons, you will not see GT placeable in areas which feel like you should be able to - but cannot, like the top floor in plaza, or above the door in gravity control. This is because GT can only be placed in places where AI like Arcs, drifters, and MACs can travel... and they cannot travel vertically - like to the very tippity top of lava falls in refinery.
What kind of balance reasons, what do macs and arcs moving have to do with tunnels?
To be very clear - The only changes that are planned right now, are subtle fixes to areas with broken nav mesh. But due to balance reasons, you will not see GT placeable in areas which feel like you should be able to - but cannot, like the top floor in plaza, or above the door in gravity control. This is because GT can only be placed in places where AI like Arcs, drifters, and MACs can travel... and they cannot travel vertically - like to the very tippity top of lava falls in refinery.
What kind of balance reasons, what do macs and arcs moving have to do with tunnels?
SIGH... once again, an explanation that Gorge Tunnels use PATHING, which they must be placed on in order to drop the. ARC's, MAC's, Drifters, Hallucinations, all use PATHING to navigate where they are going. You start screwing with pathing and you start screwing with those. Such as them getting stuck, going where they shouldn't, leading to people complaining about them getting stuck.
I see a lot of you completely ignoring that if you would make GT's researchable, you would remove a need for gorges almost completely in early game. You remove the potential for creativity in game openings. It seems like you want to enforce gameplay where you only do the same upgrade path all the time, isn't it enough that most people cry about using a specific upgrade chamber(shade/crag/shift hive's) as first?
Another thing is, GT's already are a big enough investment. It's flat 18 res, more if you do hydras. And seeing how gorge is the easiest lifeform to kill in the game, or how easy it is to kill anything that comes out of a GT if you're already shooting at it. It's not really as difficult as some of you make it out to be to deal with them. And that's why aliens need to invest extra lifeforms to defend it, or use tres for crag/whip/shades, which ever works. Which extends the investment even further. At the same time marines can either try to assault this location, or control other locations and come back with better upgrades later on in the game(which is usually the best route).
Seems like the narrative for almost any opinion is that do one thing, so we could do another. The another being, letting you place them to unreachable places again. It really goes beyond me why you would want that, it almost seems like you havent been abused enough by OP placements that marines lost the game for just because of 1 GT in that vent, roof, or the like. It's not balanced, plain and simple, it's only an investment for the player who made it. But just that marines know its there, they need to guard it, enforce that location, when they couldve taken over some other location, simply cause the game decided it's in a "fun spot" and you can't do anything about it. UNLESS, you tech to jetpacks straight away.. get real people.
The bug i'm referring to @Ironhorse is those things that are being fixed with this whole pathing ordeal Samusdroid is posting about, maybe i should call it a 'design flaw' to get through your thick head, but yeah. To each to its own i guess. #leavegtsastheyareplx
Or if you would change them to be able to put everywhere again, we'd just have them be illegal again in ENSL rules i would assume, and most ppl wouldn't care for pubs. So i guess you can ruin the game as you please.
The another being, letting you place them to unreachable places again. It really goes beyond me why you would want that, it almost seems like you havent been abused enough by OP placements that marines lost the game for just because of 1 GT in that vent, roof, or the like. It's not balanced, plain and simple, it's only an investment for the player who made it.
And because the situation you describe here happened every 10th game and probably only in Refinery, you would decide to only allow GT on a path mesh for Drifters and Mac's (it already having other restriction) ? Makes so much sense. Imagine the cryout if you would make it fair and allow PG placement only on that mesh too...
@_INTER_ It's not subject to one map, and the fact is there wasn't a single round on refinery as an example, from you, where i didn't see a GT up at Lava walks(or w/e that shit place is called). Cause, why the hell wouldnt you do that? It's a huge benefit for the alien team and you're playing to win. There's spots in descent, biodome, caged, and probaly more than i'm not aware that we're just plain unfair to deal with for the marine team.
And again, those spots 'on the ground' that you can't place GT's on, its unfortunate but isn't really relevant to any other discussion than 'reporting bugs'.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
They wouldn't be as unfair if the res cost was increased so they couldn't be dropped at the start of the game. Giving the marines time to tech up before the imminent gorge tunnel threat.
30-40 pres total for Gorge tunnels would also make Gorge tunnels less likely to be dropped while still having their strategic value. Fast 2-3 GT openers have been in nearly every match I've played this week.
I'm assuming you're still referring that with the increased pres, they would be plantable anywhere. How about this way of looking at it.. Some maps have these places, and some don't. So then it'll revolve into scenarios of:
a) We're playing this map, okey let's get GT in that place and win the game.
b) We're playing this map, don't bother with GT it costs too much to be of benefit(Currently GT 18 pres, with your suggestion GT 40pres, 25pres =lerk, 40pres=fade).
I'm assuming you're still referring that with the increased pres, they would be plantable anywhere. How about this way of looking at it.. Some maps have these places, and some don't. So then it'll revolve into scenarios of:
a) We're playing this map, okey let's get GT in that place and win the game.
b) We're playing this map, don't bother with GT it costs too much to be of benefit(Currently GT 18 pres, with your suggestion GT 40pres, 25pres =lerk, 40pres=fade).
How is this better?
a)Maps had to be rearranged since sentries were added to the game, so that is more of a map balance issue.
b)The same strategy shouldn't be applicable for every map. (ie. every map isn't/shouldn't be summit.)
c)A gorge tunnel imo* should be a strategy you have to commit to, like a Hive in NS1.
If Gorge tunnels end up around the time jetpacks or gl's are being researched, then the Marines have every possibility to defend against them.
c)A gorge tunnel imo* should be a strategy you have to commit to, like a Hive in NS1.
It already is, it's an investment you need to protect. You loose it, that 18res at the start was for nothing when you could've used it for a lerk in next mins, or a fade minutes later, or an onos. Which is why they are in places marines can reach. If it would be in unreachable places, you wouldnt have to commit anything to it.
If Gorge tunnels end up around the time jetpacks or gl's are being researched, then the Marines have every possibility to defend against them.
If GT's end up being coming up that late to the game, they will become one of the least used ability alongside with web and all the worthless fade upgrades that everyone upgrades last. Ontop of it, this would remove any reason apart from random clog walls to go gorge until you get bilebomb. Which again, reduces possible strategies instead of promoting new ones.
I'll give you a cookie, increased GT cost by 2-3 pres, it'll be delayed by 1min or more. Will let you people running like snails more time to react? -.-
@Ots
My point is, that (as someone else mentioned) fixing GT to the ground by restricting it on a path mesh that is meant for Drifters and MAC's is just the wrong approach to get rid of the apparent issue GT's had before 259. (An idea like this could only ever have been considered because of lazyness / time problems)
Honestly why did they take GT out of research tree in the first place? It was way better and especially more interesting when GT was researchable. Comm had to decide between GT first or Bile bomb. Now you can chose between Babblers (haha) or wait until Bile Bomb.
Also Gorge's are still viable enough without free GT in early game.
a)Maps had to be rearranged since sentries were added to the game, so that is more of a map balance issue.
I dont get it, you want content patches to break maps now? O.o
No, I'm saying this has already happened plenty of times in the past. A map needs to be designed around a game, not the game designed around a map. If the game changes, maps would need to be changed as well.
Some maps take longer to be updated than others too.
I'll give you a cookie, increased GT cost by 2-3 pres, it'll be delayed by 1min or more. Will let you people running like snails more time to react? -.-
I've personally liked the though of having Gorge Tunnels at a Biomass Req of 2. This would delay their placement by a couple of minutes and it would encourage commanders to not forget Biomass. Their price however I feel is perfect where it is.
The anothhIer being, letting you place them to unreachable places again. It really goes beyond me why you would want that, it almost seems like you havent been abused enough by OP placements that marines lost the game for just because of 1 GT in that vent, roof, or the like. It's not balanced, plain and simple, it's only an investment for the player who made it.
And because the situation you describe here happened every 10th game and probably only in Refinery, you would decide to only allow GT on a path mesh for Drifters and Mac's (it already having other restriction) ? Makes so much sense. Imagine the cryout if you would make it fair and allow PG placement only on that mesh too...
I see a lot of you completely ignoring that if you would make GT's researchable, you would remove a need for gorges almost completely in early game. You remove the potential for creativity in game openings. It seems like you want to enforce gameplay where you only do the same upgrade path all the time
Right.. because right now we aren't seeing 2 to 3 gorge tunnels being placed within the first minute of every round in pubs.. that totally leads to dynamic and different game openings when it happens every single round. /sarcasm
Also I'm pretty sure the gorge was damn useful even before GTs became freely available.. even touted as "OP" previously with babblers and BB. @ghosthree3 this is your moment to vent about those months.
The bug i'm referring to @Ironhorse is those things that are being fixed with this whole pathing ordeal Samusdroid is posting about,
I re read your original comment and realized i had not noticed your comment in parenthesis of "(reachable places for rines)"... my apologies for misunderstanding what you were speaking about.
That being said, GTs being researchable or not is definitely still relevant to the discussion, since the only reason those bugs exist in the first place (What the OP discusses) is because of the change to being placed on nav mesh, due to not being researchable. Therefore, if GTs are once again in a place where they have to be researched, this topic wouldn't even have a reason to exist.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
A CORRECTLY used gorge tunnel combined with clogs and hydras, perhaps whips can completely lockdown large areas, pretty much indefinitely with a gorge supporting.
On a personal note I would love to place tunnels anywhere, any place. If that means making them more late tech, then im for.
A early gorge can still clog and hydra aswell as heal which is still damn powerful early on. (And lets not forget build assist).
If you NEED a tunnel with that, rather then use it as another (although strong) way to enforce your outpost, then you are doing it very very wrong.
And incase you wonder on which experience I am making these statements / opinions...
Pub play
div3 gorge play.
To be very clear - The only changes that are planned right now, are subtle fixes to areas with broken nav mesh. But due to balance reasons, you will not see GT placeable in areas which feel like you should be able to - but cannot, like the top floor in plaza, or above the door in gravity control. This is because GT can only be placed in places where AI like Arcs, drifters, and MACs can travel... and they cannot travel vertically - like to the very tippity top of lava falls in refinery.
What kind of balance reasons, what do macs and arcs moving have to do with tunnels?
SIGH... once again, an explanation that Gorge Tunnels use PATHING, which they must be placed on in order to drop the. ARC's, MAC's, Drifters, Hallucinations, all use PATHING to navigate where they are going. You start screwing with pathing and you start screwing with those. Such as them getting stuck, going where they shouldn't, leading to people complaining about them getting stuck.
does this mean we can place them midair like some of those old bugs with drifter had them bounce around in?
Right.. because right now we aren't seeing 2 to 3 gorge tunnels being placed within the first minute of every round in pubs.. that totally leads to dynamic and different game openings when it happens every single round. /sarcasm
That being said, GTs being researchable or not is definitely still relevant to the discussion, since the only reason those bugs exist in the first place (What the OP discusses) is because of the change to being placed on nav mesh, due to not being researchable. Therefore, if GTs are once again in a place where they have to be researched, this topic wouldn't even have a reason to exist
Well it sounds more like we're not playing in the same universe then, but then again my universe is composed of pubs and competitive play, and i'm pretty keen on watching all content there is to watch. Just because some people insist doing the same thing over and over again, doesn't mean there isn't other viable routes.
And even more so, i can't imagine a game where 2-3 tunnels are dropped at 2 of those aint destroyed before any use of them is gotten. This assuming the marine team isn't snoozing and turtling from the getgo.
@DC_Darkling yes that div3 is giving a lot of merit
Oh and, i didnt play ns2 in those patches you speak of, i play in the now. So your references don't really make much sense to me.
Comments
What kind of balance reasons, what do macs and arcs moving have to do with tunnels?
SIGH... once again, an explanation that Gorge Tunnels use PATHING, which they must be placed on in order to drop the. ARC's, MAC's, Drifters, Hallucinations, all use PATHING to navigate where they are going. You start screwing with pathing and you start screwing with those. Such as them getting stuck, going where they shouldn't, leading to people complaining about them getting stuck.
Another thing is, GT's already are a big enough investment. It's flat 18 res, more if you do hydras. And seeing how gorge is the easiest lifeform to kill in the game, or how easy it is to kill anything that comes out of a GT if you're already shooting at it. It's not really as difficult as some of you make it out to be to deal with them. And that's why aliens need to invest extra lifeforms to defend it, or use tres for crag/whip/shades, which ever works. Which extends the investment even further. At the same time marines can either try to assault this location, or control other locations and come back with better upgrades later on in the game(which is usually the best route).
Seems like the narrative for almost any opinion is that do one thing, so we could do another. The another being, letting you place them to unreachable places again. It really goes beyond me why you would want that, it almost seems like you havent been abused enough by OP placements that marines lost the game for just because of 1 GT in that vent, roof, or the like. It's not balanced, plain and simple, it's only an investment for the player who made it. But just that marines know its there, they need to guard it, enforce that location, when they couldve taken over some other location, simply cause the game decided it's in a "fun spot" and you can't do anything about it. UNLESS, you tech to jetpacks straight away.. get real people.
The bug i'm referring to @Ironhorse is those things that are being fixed with this whole pathing ordeal Samusdroid is posting about, maybe i should call it a 'design flaw' to get through your thick head, but yeah. To each to its own i guess. #leavegtsastheyareplx
Nope. Try Shuttle Bay, Fabrication, Cave... (nav_debug on)
And again, those spots 'on the ground' that you can't place GT's on, its unfortunate but isn't really relevant to any other discussion than 'reporting bugs'.
30-40 pres total for Gorge tunnels would also make Gorge tunnels less likely to be dropped while still having their strategic value. Fast 2-3 GT openers have been in nearly every match I've played this week.
a) We're playing this map, okey let's get GT in that place and win the game.
b) We're playing this map, don't bother with GT it costs too much to be of benefit(Currently GT 18 pres, with your suggestion GT 40pres, 25pres =lerk, 40pres=fade).
How is this better?
a)Maps had to be rearranged since sentries were added to the game, so that is more of a map balance issue.
b)The same strategy shouldn't be applicable for every map. (ie. every map isn't/shouldn't be summit.)
c)A gorge tunnel imo* should be a strategy you have to commit to, like a Hive in NS1.
If Gorge tunnels end up around the time jetpacks or gl's are being researched, then the Marines have every possibility to defend against them.
I'll give you a cookie, increased GT cost by 2-3 pres, it'll be delayed by 1min or more. Will let you people running like snails more time to react? -.-
My point is, that (as someone else mentioned) fixing GT to the ground by restricting it on a path mesh that is meant for Drifters and MAC's is just the wrong approach to get rid of the apparent issue GT's had before 259. (An idea like this could only ever have been considered because of lazyness / time problems)
Honestly why did they take GT out of research tree in the first place? It was way better and especially more interesting when GT was researchable. Comm had to decide between GT first or Bile bomb. Now you can chose between Babblers (haha) or wait until Bile Bomb.
Also Gorge's are still viable enough without free GT in early game.
No, I'm saying this has already happened plenty of times in the past. A map needs to be designed around a game, not the game designed around a map. If the game changes, maps would need to be changed as well.
Some maps take longer to be updated than others too.
You would be committing the time and resources you could have spent on a higher lifeform.
Gee, thanks for your mercy and all that.
Cheers. Chariot
Well....you have to wait for the patch...
Right.. because right now we aren't seeing 2 to 3 gorge tunnels being placed within the first minute of every round in pubs.. that totally leads to dynamic and different game openings when it happens every single round. /sarcasm
Also I'm pretty sure the gorge was damn useful even before GTs became freely available.. even touted as "OP" previously with babblers and BB. @ghosthree3 this is your moment to vent about those months.
I re read your original comment and realized i had not noticed your comment in parenthesis of "(reachable places for rines)"... my apologies for misunderstanding what you were speaking about.
That being said, GTs being researchable or not is definitely still relevant to the discussion, since the only reason those bugs exist in the first place (What the OP discusses) is because of the change to being placed on nav mesh, due to not being researchable. Therefore, if GTs are once again in a place where they have to be researched, this topic wouldn't even have a reason to exist.
On a personal note I would love to place tunnels anywhere, any place. If that means making them more late tech, then im for.
A early gorge can still clog and hydra aswell as heal which is still damn powerful early on. (And lets not forget build assist).
If you NEED a tunnel with that, rather then use it as another (although strong) way to enforce your outpost, then you are doing it very very wrong.
And incase you wonder on which experience I am making these statements / opinions...
Pub play
div3 gorge play.
does this mean we can place them midair like some of those old bugs with drifter had them bounce around in?
And even more so, i can't imagine a game where 2-3 tunnels are dropped at 2 of those aint destroyed before any use of them is gotten. This assuming the marine team isn't snoozing and turtling from the getgo.
@DC_Darkling yes that div3 is giving a lot of merit
Oh and, i didnt play ns2 in those patches you speak of, i play in the now. So your references don't really make much sense to me.