Ha/hmg Marines Vs Fades
Catpoker
Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 816Members
Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 816Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The Numbers</div> Well, first I must say that I love this mod, it is the most emersive, tactical, and well-made mods I have ever played. But after playing since October 31st, this game has become this:
Aliens win 90% of the times I (Disclamer: I as in me, this is my opinion, not hard proof. I have played on both sides, with a lot of different people, both good and newbe. I have played on many servers and have commanded myself and consider myself to be at least a decent comm. BTW i mostly play on the 1.04 Beta servers though) have played.
What happens these 90% games is this, aliens start out, one guy goes gorge and build 3 RT (at the MOST) and sits and waits for hive, most of the time that hive is defended by 1-2 skulks (I have to pull this duty most of the time). Now marines are moving out and getting one empty hive.
2nd hive goes up, wait about 1 minute or so, fades pop up. Now I see comms do 1 of 3 things.
- Tell the marines to rush a hive.
- Upgrades the armory and hands out HMGs
- Gives up and just wastes time (F4)
now, every time fades pop up I have gotten into the habit of saying “fades = win” and automatically I get the response “not always”. Sure not always, if you have fades with the IQ of 30 then you can lose. But MOST of the time, you have semi-intelligent people playing (again, MOST of the time) and yes there are times when this is not true (spare me your stores)
let do the math:
Marines to get HA/HMG/Welder and one hive (in a group of I am going to say 7 people)
Start: 100 Resource
- IP: 22 * 2
- Armory: 25
- Observatory: 25
- Phase Gates 25 * 2
ok you got a hive, not defended of course but you have a phase there
now upgrades:
Arms lab: 45 (lets say no upgrades, just to save money)
Proto: 45
Research HA: 50
Upgrade armory: 25
HA + HMG + welder given to one person: 57 (correct me if wrong but welders are 7 right?)
And you know have 1 person to go head to head with 1 fade and there is a chance
Add everything up: 366 I have come up with. Now this is without defense anywhere, no cost of RT (pay for its self lets say) and nothing gets killed (a truce is called until the 2nd hive)
I would have to test it but I would imagine it would take about 10-15 minus to get the resources to get everything needed to get this far.
Now look at the aliens:
Skulks spwan: each with 10 and move up to 33 without going lerk/gorge. So: 23 resources * 6 players
Going gorge: 13
Lets say 3 RT buy themselves agian
3 Defence towers: 14 * 3
Hive: 80
3 movement chambers: 14 * 3
so far: 315
then you take the skulks with 33 resources, they need 11 for 44, so: 11 * 6 players
for a grand total of: 381 (with no OT), and this can usually be accomplished by around the 5-10 minute mark (again, not tested, but the games that I have played showed me this)
ok so here is what I see:
it costs ONE un-upgraded marine: 366 to get HA/HMG, with a guy welding him, what most people agree can stand up to a fade 1v1
now, it costs a team of 7 aliens 381 resources to get SIX fades. just 15 more resources
Is there something wrong here?
Aliens win 90% of the times I (Disclamer: I as in me, this is my opinion, not hard proof. I have played on both sides, with a lot of different people, both good and newbe. I have played on many servers and have commanded myself and consider myself to be at least a decent comm. BTW i mostly play on the 1.04 Beta servers though) have played.
What happens these 90% games is this, aliens start out, one guy goes gorge and build 3 RT (at the MOST) and sits and waits for hive, most of the time that hive is defended by 1-2 skulks (I have to pull this duty most of the time). Now marines are moving out and getting one empty hive.
2nd hive goes up, wait about 1 minute or so, fades pop up. Now I see comms do 1 of 3 things.
- Tell the marines to rush a hive.
- Upgrades the armory and hands out HMGs
- Gives up and just wastes time (F4)
now, every time fades pop up I have gotten into the habit of saying “fades = win” and automatically I get the response “not always”. Sure not always, if you have fades with the IQ of 30 then you can lose. But MOST of the time, you have semi-intelligent people playing (again, MOST of the time) and yes there are times when this is not true (spare me your stores)
let do the math:
Marines to get HA/HMG/Welder and one hive (in a group of I am going to say 7 people)
Start: 100 Resource
- IP: 22 * 2
- Armory: 25
- Observatory: 25
- Phase Gates 25 * 2
ok you got a hive, not defended of course but you have a phase there
now upgrades:
Arms lab: 45 (lets say no upgrades, just to save money)
Proto: 45
Research HA: 50
Upgrade armory: 25
HA + HMG + welder given to one person: 57 (correct me if wrong but welders are 7 right?)
And you know have 1 person to go head to head with 1 fade and there is a chance
Add everything up: 366 I have come up with. Now this is without defense anywhere, no cost of RT (pay for its self lets say) and nothing gets killed (a truce is called until the 2nd hive)
I would have to test it but I would imagine it would take about 10-15 minus to get the resources to get everything needed to get this far.
Now look at the aliens:
Skulks spwan: each with 10 and move up to 33 without going lerk/gorge. So: 23 resources * 6 players
Going gorge: 13
Lets say 3 RT buy themselves agian
3 Defence towers: 14 * 3
Hive: 80
3 movement chambers: 14 * 3
so far: 315
then you take the skulks with 33 resources, they need 11 for 44, so: 11 * 6 players
for a grand total of: 381 (with no OT), and this can usually be accomplished by around the 5-10 minute mark (again, not tested, but the games that I have played showed me this)
ok so here is what I see:
it costs ONE un-upgraded marine: 366 to get HA/HMG, with a guy welding him, what most people agree can stand up to a fade 1v1
now, it costs a team of 7 aliens 381 resources to get SIX fades. just 15 more resources
Is there something wrong here?
Comments
Also, HMG+HA+guy welding >> 1 fade. More like 2, maybe 3 fades.
You also left off 11*4 for fade upgrades (carapace and adrenaline most likely) and don't forget that there is no way any alien can pick up a fallen fade's weapon. Also, HMG >> Acid rocket for mid and close-range fighting. At long range, the HMG loses some effectiveness due to cone of fire, but the acid rocket becomes easier to dodge so it's harder to say.
By-the-numbers balancing is difficult at best and usually fails completely. Especially when the 2 sides are fundamentally different.
and Silver Fox reminded me: so if the marine have to get 2 hives, why do aliens only have to get 1?
but i agree.. aliens seem to dominate...
ie... i see HA HMG marines... i tend to stay back.. let them spam their clip and while htey are reloading.. they are dead... swipe swipe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
but i agree.. aliens seem to dominate...
ie... i see HA HMG marines... i tend to stay back.. let them spam their clip and while htey are reloading.. they are dead... swipe swipe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well big exception is Bast. The marines can own this map badly due to cheesy vent tactics... that will also work in patch 1.04 - it'll just require scanners.
Now I've also tried both clan and pub games. Marines definitely gains a large upper hand once they do GOOD teamwork. They can even afford the aliens to get that 2nd hive and fades, and then come and TAKE the hive back with their Crack team of welding HA'ers spamming nades and laying the smack down with HMG fire.
but i agree.. aliens seem to dominate...
ie... i see HA HMG marines... i tend to stay back.. let them spam their clip and while htey are reloading.. they are dead... swipe swipe <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well big exception is Bast. The marines can own this map badly due to cheesy vent tactics... that will also work in patch 1.04 - it'll just require scanners.
Now I've also tried both clan and pub games. Marines definitely gains a large upper hand once they do GOOD teamwork. They can even afford the aliens to get that 2nd hive and fades, and then come and TAKE the hive back with their Crack team of welding HA'ers spamming nades and laying the smack down with HMG fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AW CRAP... i meant
BIG servers marines have a better chance becasue of the more groups to go out
while SMALL servers meaning less aliens = more resrouce per .. if im not wrong...
If the commander is doing a hive rush and 1-2 skulks can stop his team of 6+, he's already lost, might as well hop out the command chair and go home.
At start defend your base lightly and then try to capture two hives as soon as possible. If you manage to do this and keep those aliens away from those hives, you probably win. But if it seems that you cant keep/take two hives, then take just one and capture at least three res nodes, so your total res towers will be then four (there is one in base). Build phase gate to hive and those res towers. Build arms lab and upgrade weapons power until it is at level 2 or 3. Order your team to protect that hive and those res towers. When lmg does 20-30% more damage you will see how easily two marines can take out one fade even if it has carapace. Then build prototype lab, upgrade heavy armor and armory. Dont give hmg until you got HA. Start upgrading armors. Eguip your team with HA, HMG and welders. If they move about 3-4 groups they are almost unstoppable. You can easily go near hive and build siege there while your team is holding fades. After that victory is pretty sure. Just upgrade armor to level 3 and give new HA, HMG, welder everyone who dies. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
while SMALL servers meaning less aliens = more resrouce per .. if im not wrong...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your not wrong ... I once played 3v1 (me alien) and and allmost won but some1 joined marines and I didnt win a 4v1 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (dunno why the team balance thing didnt work ... make a server option ? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
while SMALL servers meaning less aliens = more resrouce per .. if im not wrong...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your not wrong ... I once played 3v1 (me alien) and and allmost won but some1 joined marines and I didnt win a 4v1 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (dunno why the team balance thing didnt work ... make a server option ? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ive one a 3v1 when i was alien .. rofl.. first i thot onos would do it but onos is way to cumbersome and clumsy.. i won fading <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> rofl
I wanted to ask about the 5 res per tick, is it supposed to be like that?
I think there is. Using the logic you put down there. The aliens have about 5 minutes with all out fades before marines have two HHW guys. When that happens, those two guys walk towards a hive. Down go the fades, down go the OCs, down go the hive. They can weld each other, and because of commander attention they never need to worry about health or ammo.
2 fades will kill 2 HMG/HA/W guys 10 out of 10 times if the fades are not idiots. The fade's acid rocket is super accurate at any range, whereas the spread on the hmg is ridiculously large at anything other than point plank range. The splash on acid rocket allows the fade to attack both marines simultaneously. Sure, one marine can continuously weld the other, but it is the welding marine that will die first. The marines are so slow, and the fades can back up as fast as they can move forward. The 2 fades take turns firing acid, so that the stream is continuous. The reload time on the hmg guarantees that the marine fire is not. Furthermore, the acid rocket splash effect lags brutally on the marines's cpus.
If the cdr is health and ammo spamming these two marines, he is certainly not helping anyone else.
As a final insult, a hmg/ha/w marine costs more than a fade. Oh, the humanity.
What??? I thought the game was supposed to be balanced at the 2 hive point.
What??? I thought the game was supposed to be balanced at the 2 hive point.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it was supposed to be, but it looks like it's not turning out that way. Hopefully 1.04 and further releases can address this "midgame == endgame" problem.
First time I even bother posting in one of these ridiculous threads. Maybe I should make a standard aliens/marines rebuttal post...
Anyway. The resource model tips the scale. As <i>intelligent</i> people before you have calculated (intelligent because they actually know the costs, resource model and how to calculate) there is indeed a balance issue w/r/t the team sizes. Basically it works like this:
Small teams = easy for aliens
Medium teams = balanced
Big teams = easy for marines
7-9 people on each side would be a medium sized game, bordering on big (9 vs 9). Most (almost all) of the games I play is 9vs9 and I would say that the aliens have to work hard to win, unless the marines have a bad COM or bad players in general (or simply make mistakes). I play on a pub server that is harshly admined (go gorg/com without team consent = slay/kick/ban) and has some very good players, lots of good players, and few below average players. We don't allow teamstacking either, so everyone plays both as marine and alien.
The standard Marine tactic of either getting phase gates up at both unclaimed hives asap then fortifying them, or getting one phase up then attacking the 2:nd hive before it goes online has a pretty large chance of winning. Leaving 1-2 skulks to guard the hive? Are you kidding? Maybe if you have 4-5 good skulks they can stop an advancing marine team (usually 5-7 marines, since 1-3 stay and defend the base/hive).
Oh, and with a pretty 'optimized' resource managment both teams will reach 'mid game' at about the same time, with 7-9 players per team (ie: 10 mins aprox). With smaller teams the marines will have to wait longer, and with really big teams the marines willl reach 'mid game' as fast as 4-5 minutes into the round.
One reason that Fades sometimes seem superior is the fact that most COM's try to go for the win immediatly, basically putting all the resources into getting and holding two hives. If one of those hives then fall, the marines don't have a backup plan (ie: upgrades) most of the time. Basically people are playing for broke, either win big or lose big.
PM me and I will give you the IP to our server, I am sure you will change your mind after playing there.
My advise:
Get 2 Arms labs and do weapon and armour upgrade simultaneously.
The upgrades are worth more than 10 heavy machine guns.
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if you are talking about my first post, arms labs are a preequisite to prototype labs
4x rocket launched uber fast, wait around corner then slash, jump duck slash twirl, slash leap and cut him down like the expensive trash he is.
Works the vast bulk of the time for me ne way.
Of course a group of HA is another story but the good news is they get in each others way, adds to the confusion and increases the damage u dish out (splash). Yeah but mostly i run away to help arrives.
besides fades are cheaper than HA and faster
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Ok. What you're really saying is that you're better as a fade then a newbie with HA/HMG, in a 1 on 1 situation where you have cover at least.
HA/HMG can deliver and absorb <b>a lot</b> more damage then a Fade. The Fade is however quicke and can damage several targets at once (splash). The ability to heal up (regen or D chambers) is off set by the COM being able to drop ammo and health.
I'm a good fade and a good HA marine. I think if I went up against myself 1 on 1, the HA me would win in most situations, but not all.
4x rocket launched uber fast, wait around corner then slash, jump duck slash twirl, slash leap and cut him down like the expensive trash he is.
Works the vast bulk of the time for me ne way.
Of course a group of HA is another story but the good news is they get in each others way, adds to the confusion and increases the damage u dish out (splash). Yeah but mostly i run away to help arrives.
besides fades are cheaper than HA and faster<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
? Wtf game are you playing? Fades don't stand a chance against an HMG/HA unless they kamikaze and jump around in random circles long enough to somehow dodge the 3000 (Random guess, I think its more like 2200) damage an HMG dishes out with every clip. And, even if what you say is true, Fades own HA/HMG 1vs1, how may situations is that going to happen. When the comm spends like 70 resources to give you HMG and HA, do you think "Well the comm just spent a lot of money on me, I'm gonna go out on my own with no backup and destroy the other team!!". What kind of moron would just get himself wasted like that. Marines all complain that fades are cheap and over powered but the only reason they think so is because they fail to work as a team, as marines should. Just because you shoot something and it doesn't die doesn't mean its invincible. Try playing Fade sometime and attacking a LA/LMG guy. LMG STILL HURTS LIKE HELL. If TWO marines rushed at a fade and emptied a full clip straight at him, that Fade is gone, unless he's standing next to a wall of lame, being healed by like 7 DC's. When i see a HA/HMG marine, I run, I would not even bother to try and kill one, I play aliens and ONLY aliens and I know 80% of the time it's hopeless. Unless of course, I've got a little lerk buddy to umbra me o_o
haha thats funny, the game is a few months old
I wiped out 6 ha/hmg guys by a fade with carapace/adreline by myself......all i did was blink down corners and spam acid rockets.Welder you say?Pfft.So they weld and so they sit there taking damage and no one is going to weld them back cause the others are all shooting.Not to mention ha/hmg is SO SLOW that they could never "rush me".I repeated that for 3 corridors,everytime they stopped to weld,spam an acid rocket or 2.SPAM SPAM SPAM.
In the end the splash wiped out all 6 of them at once.