Wow. Another stellar guy on this topic. Saying you need to organize your post and use proper punctuation is not attacking you as a person. Did call you stupid? No. Did I call you pathetic? No. How you type is really hard to read. I understand it, but I have to slow down to really understand what you're tying to say because the slang, punctuation, and spelling in your posts could use some work.
That being said, I'm just going ignore you just as I did with last douchebag because I can already see where this is going. When you make posts like your last two, you're basically asking people to confront you. I will not be baited. Sorry. However, if you decide to change your tone, POSSIBLY clean your sentences to make them a tad bit easier to read, and agree to have a CIVIL and MATURE debate, I will post my thoughts regarding your opinion. That is all.
People are very fragile on the internet. Be gentle.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited December 2013
Suh we needz to spreck 1nt3rn3tz n0w?
Inter, it used to sit on the avatar itself.
had more character than a badge, i think.
so what was the topic about again? i forgot.
Edit: Looking back, i don't see this as a very ontopic comment yes, but how on bloody earth is this abuse?! @android88 please stop flagging things innapropriately. It's hurting my inner admin. and probably driving the real ones mad.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited December 2013
Alright, alright, can we get on with the topic now and leave each other in peace? Thank you, fellas..
On topic: @talesin I think you and others have a good point, but don't you think its possible to lower the skill ceiling in certain places through indirect means? I.e. not effecting the sense of freedom and personal expression through input that comes from a high skill ceiling?
CS is a good example where it does not matter how much of a great aim you are, or how fast your reflexes are, or how aware you are of positioning... you can still take that god player out with a lucky shot in 2 seconds from across the map.
The same cannot be said to be true with NS2. There exists no mechanics to give the lesser skilled players a chance (the noob tube etc).. i often wonder if this design misstep were to be accounted for, if we would have been without issue in regards to player retention. (because frustration levels would have been less from new players)
Slightly. With a generation who grew up with the hand-holding of self-regenerating shields, infinite ammo secondaries, and never having had to slam against a brick wall as with classic games (Silver Surfer? Battletoads? Deadly Towers?) many younger gamers I meet get frustrated and just roll on to the next game as soon as their ego isn't being stroked.
Though I do have to place at least some of the blame on our 'Veterans'. I've been sneaking around on servers under a secondary Steam account, and the sheer amount of anatomy-waggling from 'competitive' players (winning, or blaming their team endlessly for ANY loss) is outright repugnant.
I dunno, that "hand holding" does not seem to help much when you die in half a second with no chance of fighting back. Because dieing instantly is "realistic" despite gameplay implications. *cough COD cough* Actually no, there is no fighting, just who sees who first. Maybe I'm too used to slower paced shooters like this and Guns of Icarus. Mario isn't exactly a skill intensive platformer such as Super Meat boy, but man, mike knows how ya feel.
Fortunately, in the 200 combined hours of NS2 and GoIO I've encountered maybe 5 or so 'Veterans' like this: (4:45)
Besides the guy that got jailed in 6 posts, seems like the game and community have grown. Once I'm out of the clutches of sandbox, I'll give NS2 another whirl.
There have been quite a few changes since Gorgeous. I don't really feel like going into detail lol. Besides the changelogs will cover everything not just major changes.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited December 2013
He was Complimenting** them not giving them a hard time. o.O
Im going to stop foruming at night time. i seem to type out the wrong word every time and never look back.
Slightly. With a generation who grew up with the hand-holding of self-regenerating shields, infinite ammo secondaries, and never having had to slam against a brick wall as with classic games (Silver Surfer? Battletoads? Deadly Towers?) many younger gamers I meet get frustrated and just roll on to the next game as soon as their ego isn't being stroked.
Though I do have to place at least some of the blame on our 'Veterans'. I've been sneaking around on servers under a secondary Steam account, and the sheer amount of anatomy-waggling from 'competitive' players (winning, or blaming their team endlessly for ANY loss) is outright repugnant.
It's worth mentioning that the selection of games these days is also vastly superior regardless of what system you're playing on, and since NS2 is on Steam you also can't ignore how much a difference Steam sales make for being able to play a game for a short while and then move on because of how many great inexpensive indie games are out there and how quickly many big AAA games go on sale after they've been out for only a few months. It's not a gallery of bad games, either. There's a tremendous quantity of really great stuff out there even if there are some mediocre or bad ones. Games like NS2 that demand not only that the player learn a relatively complex game but also play it fairly regularly to retain their skill are naturally going to suffer in an environment where so many other things compete for a gamer's time and attention.
Personally, I think it's more than a little condescending to fall back on the idea that the current generation is less capable than we were when we were young or that people that grow up playing Halo instead of Quake are somehow worse people because of it. The reality is that not many people want to invest all their entertainment time in one or even a small number of games. I play NS2 fairly frequently if for no other reason than I obviously have to or I would be terrible at being a playtester, and I try to play it on top of that for fun because I like the game and I still feel like I suck and need to play it more to be decent. The reality is that I'm just not going to be able to invest more time in NS2 and still be able to play all the other cool new games I want to play, and that's to say nothing of other real-world commitments. I spend way more total time gaming than the average person in my demographic, too, so think about what that says for broader appeal.
There just isn't the same kind of demand for games that require you to invest yourself in them heavily in order to be successful. That's fine, though. It's okay to have a smaller following because a game is hard. That doesn't mean that the people who don't play it or stick with it are bad, though.
I will agree that many public servers are far too hostile and that many veteran players act very rudely to new and old players alike. It's getting pretty tiring and it's been discouraging me from playing on public servers lately. I hate that feeling because I love NS2 and I want to play it and have fun, but playing a game that is so teamwork oriented and socially driven with people that are dismissive or hostile to anyone outside their own social cliques does not make for a positive experience.
It's worth mentioning that the selection of games these days is also vastly superior regardless of what system you're playing on, and since NS2 is on Steam you also can't ignore how much a difference Steam sales make for being able to play a game for a short while and then move on because of how many great inexpensive indie games are out there and how quickly many big AAA games go on sale after they've been out for only a few months. It's not a gallery of bad games, either. There's a tremendous quantity of really great stuff out there even if there are some mediocre or bad ones. Games like NS2 that demand not only that the player learn a relatively complex game but also play it fairly regularly to retain their skill are naturally going to suffer in an environment where so many other things compete for a gamer's time and attention.
Yes, the steam store represents the cereal aisle of an American supermarket; infinite choice between marginally different products that people can cycle through in their desperate search for stimulation. This choice conditions people to be incredibly picky and never being happy with what they have, which contrasts greatly with how it was 10 to 15 years ago where we had to make do with the game we had. Now people whine about a particular mechanic that they do not like in a game and this is considered a reasonable basis for an entirely new, but marginally different, piece of software.
Personally, I think it's more than a little condescending to fall back on the idea that the current generation is less capable than we were when we were young or that people that grow up playing Halo instead of Quake are somehow worse people because of it. The reality is that not many people want to invest all their entertainment time in one or even a small number of games. I play NS2 fairly frequently if for no other reason than I obviously have to or I would be terrible at being a playtester, and I try to play it on top of that for fun because I like the game and I still feel like I suck and need to play it more to be decent. The reality is that I'm just not going to be able to invest more time in NS2 and still be able to play all the other cool new games I want to play, and that's to say nothing of other real-world commitments. I spend way more total time gaming than the average person in my demographic, too, so think about what that says for broader appeal.
This isn't true. The millions of people playing MMOs such as WoW, moba games such as a lol, dota2, HoN are all investing most of their gaming time into a single game. The fps games such as TF2, CS, CoD and every other generic shooter have significantly more players than ns2 and consist of players who are investing a large proportion of their time into a single game. I bet the number of people who play TF2 just to collect hats is greater than the number of people playing NS2.
The reality is that this generation of fps players are going for the path of least resistance in order to get their instant gratification endorphin release. The time investment required to get good at ns2 is not significantly greater than any other shooter and is significantly less than a moba or what is needed to get the latest raiding gear in WoW.
There just isn't the same kind of demand for games that require you to invest yourself in them heavily in order to be successful. That's fine, though. It's okay to have a smaller following because a game is hard. That doesn't mean that the people who don't play it or stick with it are bad, though.
As I described above, this is not true. Also, making a distinction between the two groups by calling the other one bad reinforces the tribalism between groups and likely reduces the number of people leaving for bad games out of fear of losing social standing with their online peers.
I will agree that many public servers are far too hostile and that many veteran players act very rudely to new and old players alike. It's getting pretty tiring and it's been discouraging me from playing on public servers lately. I hate that feeling because I love NS2 and I want to play it and have fun, but playing a game that is so teamwork oriented and socially driven with people that are dismissive or hostile to anyone outside their own social cliques does not make for a positive experience.
This is hardly a barrier of entry and retention to this game, as it is the same if not worse in every other game that exists. Those that don't play a game because someone said mean things to them are going to feel this way in every game. While being an asshole should be discouraged, constantly placating weaklings is only going to encourage and expand the number of them as they realise that whining and crying foul is an effective technique in getting what they want.
2:35 in that video sounds mighty familiar. I actually think that Extra Credits video very accurately sums up NS2's player retention problem. There's nothing a new player can do to defeat a veteran player. There's no equivalent of the "noob tube" in NS2. You pretty much have to deal with being terrible and getting destroyed for hours and hours, and some people lack the resolve to keep going. If NS2 had something like the noob tube - something that isn't hard to use, something that is very powerful considering how little skill is required, but at the same time not so powerful as to be the optimal strategy... chances are there would be a lot more player retention. Sometimes you need to level the playing field just a little bit.
It isn't just COD either - pretty much every popular multiplayer game has something like that. The Heavy in TF2, for example.
Competitive players would probably complain about there being a powerful weapon that requires little skill to use, but if perfectly implemented a "noob tube" type weapon has no bearing on competitive play because there are more powerful options available.
The fps games such as TF2, CS, CoD and every other generic shooter have significantly more players than ns2 and consist of players who are investing a large proportion of their time into a single game. I bet the number of people who play TF2 just to collect hats is greater than the number of people playing NS2.
His argument was learning the complexities of the game, not just regularly playing, complexities that TF2, CS, and COD absolutely lack.
Yea sure there are intricacies in the meta for those games, that you naturally learn and thereby increase skill, such as recoil spread patterns from an mp5, or trick jumps with a scout - but this is knowledge you acquire through experience from play. Nothing requires you to have knowledge of hidden numbers like damage types.
This thread alone is an example of the complexities that a player must learn even between patches! (..by reading changelogs)
I believe this is an important distinction to point out since you only argued the second requirement - especially so given NS2's uniqueness in this area compared to those games you mentioned.
constantly placating weaklings is only going to encourage and expand the number of them as they realise that whining and crying foul is an effective technique in getting what they want.
Did you seriously just elude to some nefarious agenda from those new players requesting a non hostile community?? :-L
That people who are requesting civility and friendliness from a community will take a viral hold of things once everything is without hostile members and... Do what exactly??
Did i miss something? Is being friendly and civil something we should be weary of? Something worthy of scaremongering? Is it not an admirable goal we should "placate"?
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
You sort of have a fair point about MMOs and MMOGs - although, as someone that played WoW for eight years, I'd say that time investment in WoW is a far different beast than skill-building in shooters. Personally I do not understand the appeal of MMOGs at all other than that they are free, and free means a lot for minors with stingy parents or for people who live in countries with insane laws that make video game software prices jacked through the roof (see: Brazil). Dota, Dota 2, LoL and HoN have the most hostile communities I've ever seen in gaming and I can't for the life of me fathom why people like spending 30-40 minutes stuck stewing in an intractable losing game with people they don't like... but that's a different argument for a different thread on a different forum.
I would also argue that time spent in a lot of other popular games doesn't feel quite as much like bashing your head into a brick wall as it can to a novice in NS2, and that's mostly because NS2 doesn't have matchmaking. Honestly, if there's any one thing I never understood about NS2's development it was not including matchmaking for release, and I do think it would have helped a lot. Those decisions took place before I was a playtester and I doubt I would have had any impact on them even if I was. With any luck andi, AceDude and Samus can get something built this coming year.
His argument was learning the complexities of the game, not just regularly playing, complexities that TF2, CS, and COD absolutely lack.
Yea sure there are intricacies in the meta for those games, that you naturally learn and thereby increase skill, such as recoil spread patterns from an mp5, or trick jumps with a scout - but this is knowledge you acquire through experience from play. Nothing requires you to have knowledge of hidden numbers like damage types.
This thread alone is an example of the complexities that a player must learn even between patches! (..by reading changelogs)
I believe this is an important distinction to point out since you only argued the second requirement - especially so given NS2's uniqueness in this area compared to those games you mentioned.
His argument was that people didn't want to learn the complexities of NS2 because there are other games that they want to spend time on and therefor do not have sufficient time to do play these, play ns2 regularly for skill maintenance and learn the ns2 complexities. My argument was to draw on the fact that people playing these generic shooters have as much time investment as an ns2 player, therefor negating his time argument. I was also drawing on the fact that moba games like dota2, which have huge player bases, are significantly more complex than this game thus negating the complexity argument.
constantly placating weaklings is only going to encourage and expand the number of them as they realise that whining and crying foul is an effective technique in getting what they want.
Did you seriously just elude to some nefarious agenda from those new players requesting a non hostile community?? :-L
That people who are requesting civility and friendliness from a community will take a viral hold of things once everything is without hostile members and... Do what exactly??
Did i miss something? Is being friendly and civil something we should be weary of? Something worthy of scaremongering? Is it not an admirable goal we should "placate"?
Five lines of moral outrage and patting ones self on the back later...
No, I was not alluding to it being a nefarious agenda on account of it being subconscious in the way that a child pushes boundaries and most adults do without realising it.
The internet isn't always a friendly place and game communities will always have a large number of people that are unfriendly. The people who are sensitive and easily upset by anything remotely negative will always be unhappy no matter what community they are in, and this oversensitivity (weakness) should not be encouraged which is what happens when people give in to them. Hardening up and moving on is better for everyone.
On the point of a noob tube equivalent in ns2: there is the rts issue though. It's not a game where you can have a random no skill event killing a fade, because that fade costs 50 pres and takes forever to save up for, it's not something you can rebuy every 2 minutes. This is a function of the rts/fps hybrid where the team with the upper hand in res flow starts to snowball ahead.
I've long argued that the slippery slope should be more shallow than it currently is, but not even that would help the newbies in this case.
The video actually hints at what has to happen next: starcraft saw a nerf in the zerg rush and lots of players left because they lacked the skill to adapt. But is starcraft an unpopular game with no following? Clearly not...
RTS games in general do not fall into the same category as fps games alluded to in the video that ghost posted. The easy to perform but powerful action like a noob tube clearly can't be so powerful that it completely reverses the game's snowball, but given how precious pres is to both teams come the late game, that's an almost impossible situation to avoid.
The other key difference between ns2 and most other online games is the very high importance placed on teamwork. In bf, cod, sc, cs etc etc etc the player can usually just jump in on their own and play a bit, there is less emphasis on teamwork. In ns2 that really cripples the team and we have a much more communicative community. I'd argue that there is less need for an individual skill equaliser. Turrets probably actually fulfil the role of a noob tube, but on the team level rather than the individual level: and for ns2 I think that is actually more appropriate.
The internet isn't always a friendly place and game communities will always have a large number of people that are unfriendly. The people who are sensitive and easily upset by anything remotely negative will always be unhappy no matter what community they are in, and this oversensitivity (weakness) should not be encouraged which is what happens when people give in to them. Hardening up and moving on is better for everyone.
No, I think you've got that incredible wrong by all accounts.
People who want a friendly environment will not be "unhappy no matter what"...(what? lol) they
A) can be easily happy with a community (Arma and OG Ghost recon and many other mature communities come to mind) can just ensure not to subject themselves to environments which exhibit such hostility. Like you said, there's plenty of choices on the cereal isle of games.
You can drop the incredibly unrealistic claim that there's some boundary to be crossed by people wanting a friendly community - especially if you cannot explain what would occur if said boundary were to be crossed?? What, people ban you for being a dick to others when you're in a server? Already happens. Close knit communities and their admins do not tolerate hostile asshats and things like racism for a very good reason...
Your doomsaying has no basis, no real world example that's ever occurred.
Wanting a non hostile environment, or fostering a friendly one, is not weakness.. come on.. that sounds so absurd i have a hard time writing it.
It just sounds like a poor justification for someone's lack of trying to be a friendly human being - or worse - an excuse to act however they please without consequence. (What i personally find to be the true agenda of people who typically take this stance.)
There's zero downsides to fostering a friendly community, except for those members who wish to be unfriendly.
The internet isn't always a friendly place and game communities will always have a large number of people that are unfriendly. The people who are sensitive and easily upset by anything remotely negative will always be unhappy no matter what community they are in, and this oversensitivity (weakness) should not be encouraged which is what happens when people give in to them. Hardening up and moving on is better for everyone.
No, I think you've got that incredible wrong by all accounts.
People who want a friendly environment will not be "unhappy no matter what"...(what? lol) they
A) can be easily happy with a community (Arma and OG Ghost recon and many other mature communities come to mind) can just ensure not to subject themselves to environments which exhibit such hostility. Like you said, there's plenty of choices on the cereal isle of games.
You can drop the incredibly unrealistic claim that there's some boundary to be crossed by people wanting a friendly community - especially if you cannot explain what would occur if said boundary were to be crossed?? What, people ban you for being a dick to others when you're in a server? Already happens. Close knit communities and their admins do not tolerate hostile asshats for a very good reason...
Your doomsaying has no basis, no real world example that's ever occurred.
Wanting a non hostile environment, or fostering a friendly one, is not weakness.. come on.. that sounds so absurd i have a hard time writing it.
It just sounds like a poor justification for someone's lack of trying to be a friendly human being - or worse - an excuse to act however they please without consequence. (What i personally find to be the true agenda of people who typically take this stance.)
There's zero downsides to fostering a friendly community, except for those members who wish to be unfriendly.
Yes, clearly.
Btw.. can't help but notice the region of the members agreeing with your post.
Can't help but notice you concede previous points made and as usual have focused on your area of expertise; namely moral outrage, moral grandstanding and insulting entire regions due to your inability to relate to others that don't share your incredibly narrow array of sensibilities. Is it that I don't use enough smilies for your liking to ease you into the conversation?
@Ironhorse
I guess you would not be surprised to here me throw my voice behind decreasing the skill gap between new and exp players.
That new players can get so thoroughly stomped (worst examples 1 upgrade/hive aliens v tech'd up marines) is compounded by this difference.
Reducing this gap does not mean skilful games are in decline, just that the advantage a skillful player has is reduced.
Whilst "skill based movement" sounds really cool, when heavily relied upon it creates a massive skill variance.
The wider the possible skill levels are of a games player base, the harder it is to balance.
Whilst adding in these skill based mechanics may have held some vets around, it has turned away many, many more new players who have just put this game in the too hard pile.
Whilst reducing the skill gap would go a long way to helping address player retention, I dont think it would totally fix the problem
Whilst "skill based movement" sounds really cool, when heavily relied upon it creates a massive skill variance.
The wider the possible skill levels are of a games player base, the harder it is to balance.
It's a bit of luck there aren't any skill-based movement mechanics in then.
Comments
People are very fragile on the internet. Be gentle.
Just had to sneak in a useless comment here aswell for my epic post count...
'ure of 2 a gud start'
<shudders>
Inter, it used to sit on the avatar itself.
had more character than a badge, i think.
so what was the topic about again? i forgot.
Edit: Looking back, i don't see this as a very ontopic comment yes, but how on bloody earth is this abuse?!
@android88 please stop flagging things innapropriately. It's hurting my inner admin. and probably driving the real ones mad.
On another note, ever time I see this thread title with the two words 'a' and 'while' combined, my soul dies a little bit.
On topic:
@talesin I think you and others have a good point, but don't you think its possible to lower the skill ceiling in certain places through indirect means? I.e. not effecting the sense of freedom and personal expression through input that comes from a high skill ceiling?
CS is a good example where it does not matter how much of a great aim you are, or how fast your reflexes are, or how aware you are of positioning... you can still take that god player out with a lucky shot in 2 seconds from across the map.
The same cannot be said to be true with NS2. There exists no mechanics to give the lesser skilled players a chance (the noob tube etc).. i often wonder if this design misstep were to be accounted for, if we would have been without issue in regards to player retention. (because frustration levels would have been less from new players)
Fortunately, in the 200 combined hours of NS2 and GoIO I've encountered maybe 5 or so 'Veterans' like this: (4:45)
Besides the guy that got jailed in 6 posts, seems like the game and community have grown. Once I'm out of the clutches of sandbox, I'll give NS2 another whirl.
Pretty sure it's relevant to the topic, I don't even know any more I'm losing my mind.
EDIT: This is probably the best video I've seen on the subject actually.
"COD would not have been the massive success" without it..
edit: God i love those video series.. they hit the nail on the head every single time
Can't. Stop. Watching. So informative. Help...
Im sort of part-agreeing with you but mostly disagreeing with you here. There aren't that many moderators so please give them a break.
Im going to stop foruming at night time. i seem to type out the wrong word every time and never look back.
Personally, I think it's more than a little condescending to fall back on the idea that the current generation is less capable than we were when we were young or that people that grow up playing Halo instead of Quake are somehow worse people because of it. The reality is that not many people want to invest all their entertainment time in one or even a small number of games. I play NS2 fairly frequently if for no other reason than I obviously have to or I would be terrible at being a playtester, and I try to play it on top of that for fun because I like the game and I still feel like I suck and need to play it more to be decent. The reality is that I'm just not going to be able to invest more time in NS2 and still be able to play all the other cool new games I want to play, and that's to say nothing of other real-world commitments. I spend way more total time gaming than the average person in my demographic, too, so think about what that says for broader appeal.
There just isn't the same kind of demand for games that require you to invest yourself in them heavily in order to be successful. That's fine, though. It's okay to have a smaller following because a game is hard. That doesn't mean that the people who don't play it or stick with it are bad, though.
I will agree that many public servers are far too hostile and that many veteran players act very rudely to new and old players alike. It's getting pretty tiring and it's been discouraging me from playing on public servers lately. I hate that feeling because I love NS2 and I want to play it and have fun, but playing a game that is so teamwork oriented and socially driven with people that are dismissive or hostile to anyone outside their own social cliques does not make for a positive experience.
Yes, the steam store represents the cereal aisle of an American supermarket; infinite choice between marginally different products that people can cycle through in their desperate search for stimulation. This choice conditions people to be incredibly picky and never being happy with what they have, which contrasts greatly with how it was 10 to 15 years ago where we had to make do with the game we had. Now people whine about a particular mechanic that they do not like in a game and this is considered a reasonable basis for an entirely new, but marginally different, piece of software.
This isn't true. The millions of people playing MMOs such as WoW, moba games such as a lol, dota2, HoN are all investing most of their gaming time into a single game. The fps games such as TF2, CS, CoD and every other generic shooter have significantly more players than ns2 and consist of players who are investing a large proportion of their time into a single game. I bet the number of people who play TF2 just to collect hats is greater than the number of people playing NS2.
The reality is that this generation of fps players are going for the path of least resistance in order to get their instant gratification endorphin release. The time investment required to get good at ns2 is not significantly greater than any other shooter and is significantly less than a moba or what is needed to get the latest raiding gear in WoW.
As I described above, this is not true. Also, making a distinction between the two groups by calling the other one bad reinforces the tribalism between groups and likely reduces the number of people leaving for bad games out of fear of losing social standing with their online peers.
This is hardly a barrier of entry and retention to this game, as it is the same if not worse in every other game that exists. Those that don't play a game because someone said mean things to them are going to feel this way in every game. While being an asshole should be discouraged, constantly placating weaklings is only going to encourage and expand the number of them as they realise that whining and crying foul is an effective technique in getting what they want.
It isn't just COD either - pretty much every popular multiplayer game has something like that. The Heavy in TF2, for example.
Competitive players would probably complain about there being a powerful weapon that requires little skill to use, but if perfectly implemented a "noob tube" type weapon has no bearing on competitive play because there are more powerful options available.
Yea sure there are intricacies in the meta for those games, that you naturally learn and thereby increase skill, such as recoil spread patterns from an mp5, or trick jumps with a scout - but this is knowledge you acquire through experience from play. Nothing requires you to have knowledge of hidden numbers like damage types.
This thread alone is an example of the complexities that a player must learn even between patches! (..by reading changelogs)
I believe this is an important distinction to point out since you only argued the second requirement - especially so given NS2's uniqueness in this area compared to those games you mentioned.
Did you seriously just elude to some nefarious agenda from those new players requesting a non hostile community?? :-L
That people who are requesting civility and friendliness from a community will take a viral hold of things once everything is without hostile members and...
Do what exactly??
Did i miss something? Is being friendly and civil something we should be weary of? Something worthy of scaremongering? Is it not an admirable goal we should "placate"?
I would also argue that time spent in a lot of other popular games doesn't feel quite as much like bashing your head into a brick wall as it can to a novice in NS2, and that's mostly because NS2 doesn't have matchmaking. Honestly, if there's any one thing I never understood about NS2's development it was not including matchmaking for release, and I do think it would have helped a lot. Those decisions took place before I was a playtester and I doubt I would have had any impact on them even if I was. With any luck andi, AceDude and Samus can get something built this coming year.
But, as for our own community's behavior...
Y'know, you almost had me. Sigh...
His argument was that people didn't want to learn the complexities of NS2 because there are other games that they want to spend time on and therefor do not have sufficient time to do play these, play ns2 regularly for skill maintenance and learn the ns2 complexities. My argument was to draw on the fact that people playing these generic shooters have as much time investment as an ns2 player, therefor negating his time argument. I was also drawing on the fact that moba games like dota2, which have huge player bases, are significantly more complex than this game thus negating the complexity argument.
Five lines of moral outrage and patting ones self on the back later...
No, I was not alluding to it being a nefarious agenda on account of it being subconscious in the way that a child pushes boundaries and most adults do without realising it.
The internet isn't always a friendly place and game communities will always have a large number of people that are unfriendly. The people who are sensitive and easily upset by anything remotely negative will always be unhappy no matter what community they are in, and this oversensitivity (weakness) should not be encouraged which is what happens when people give in to them. Hardening up and moving on is better for everyone.
Ironhorse bait.
On the point of a noob tube equivalent in ns2: there is the rts issue though. It's not a game where you can have a random no skill event killing a fade, because that fade costs 50 pres and takes forever to save up for, it's not something you can rebuy every 2 minutes. This is a function of the rts/fps hybrid where the team with the upper hand in res flow starts to snowball ahead.
I've long argued that the slippery slope should be more shallow than it currently is, but not even that would help the newbies in this case.
The video actually hints at what has to happen next: starcraft saw a nerf in the zerg rush and lots of players left because they lacked the skill to adapt. But is starcraft an unpopular game with no following? Clearly not...
RTS games in general do not fall into the same category as fps games alluded to in the video that ghost posted. The easy to perform but powerful action like a noob tube clearly can't be so powerful that it completely reverses the game's snowball, but given how precious pres is to both teams come the late game, that's an almost impossible situation to avoid.
The other key difference between ns2 and most other online games is the very high importance placed on teamwork. In bf, cod, sc, cs etc etc etc the player can usually just jump in on their own and play a bit, there is less emphasis on teamwork. In ns2 that really cripples the team and we have a much more communicative community. I'd argue that there is less need for an individual skill equaliser. Turrets probably actually fulfil the role of a noob tube, but on the team level rather than the individual level: and for ns2 I think that is actually more appropriate.
People who want a friendly environment will not be "unhappy no matter what"...(what? lol) they
A) can be easily happy with a community (Arma and OG Ghost recon and many other mature communities come to mind)
You can drop the incredibly unrealistic claim that there's some boundary to be crossed by people wanting a friendly community - especially if you cannot explain what would occur if said boundary were to be crossed?? What, people ban you for being a dick to others when you're in a server? Already happens. Close knit communities and their admins do not tolerate hostile asshats and things like racism for a very good reason...
Your doomsaying has no basis, no real world example that's ever occurred.
Wanting a non hostile environment, or fostering a friendly one, is not weakness.. come on.. that sounds so absurd i have a hard time writing it.
It just sounds like a poor justification for someone's lack of trying to be a friendly human being - or worse - an excuse to act however they please without consequence. (What i personally find to be the true agenda of people who typically take this stance.)
There's zero downsides to fostering a friendly community, except for those members who wish to be unfriendly.
Yes, clearly.
Btw.. can't help but notice the region of the members agreeing with your post.
Can't help but notice you concede previous points made and as usual have focused on your area of expertise; namely moral outrage, moral grandstanding and insulting entire regions due to your inability to relate to others that don't share your incredibly narrow array of sensibilities. Is it that I don't use enough smilies for your liking to ease you into the conversation?
He said that people who get upset by ANYTHING NEGATIVE will be unhappy no matter what, not people who desire a friendly environment.
I guess you would not be surprised to here me throw my voice behind decreasing the skill gap between new and exp players.
That new players can get so thoroughly stomped (worst examples 1 upgrade/hive aliens v tech'd up marines) is compounded by this difference.
Reducing this gap does not mean skilful games are in decline, just that the advantage a skillful player has is reduced.
Whilst "skill based movement" sounds really cool, when heavily relied upon it creates a massive skill variance.
The wider the possible skill levels are of a games player base, the harder it is to balance.
Whilst adding in these skill based mechanics may have held some vets around, it has turned away many, many more new players who have just put this game in the too hard pile.
Whilst reducing the skill gap would go a long way to helping address player retention, I dont think it would totally fix the problem
It's a bit of luck there aren't any skill-based movement mechanics in then.