I feel Marines are inherently at a disadvantage in this game. Playing as Marines is your standard FPS fare. You can either aim or you cannot aim. Yes, there are other aspects to marine play but the base is generally a first person shooter. Yes, I can name several players in the competitive scene who are absolutely amazing as Marines, almost to point of a questionable aimbot. :P However, the skill ceiling for Marines remains far below the ceiling for Aliens. The skill ceiling for Lerk and Fade are insane. Valk is arguably the best Fade player in the world right now and I bet if he wanted to, he could become even more devastating by trying different tactics or movements while playing as a Fade. To me, having such a drastic different in skill ceilings naturally gives Marines a disadvantage.
I will agree that many public servers are far too hostile and that many veteran players act very rudely to new and old players alike. It's getting pretty tiring and it's been discouraging me from playing on public servers lately. I hate that feeling because I love NS2 and I want to play it and have fun, but playing a game that is so teamwork oriented and socially driven with people that are dismissive or hostile to anyone outside their own social cliques does not make for a positive experience.
Standby for the irrational jump to conclusion and scaremongering:
constantly placating weaklings is only going to encourage and expand the number of them as they realise that whining and crying foul is an effective technique in getting what they want.
Notice how it went from discussing "hostile" behavior to something else?
This is his claim: that supporting a non hostile environment will somehow lead to people who are "easily upset by anything remotely negative"...
Its baseless, its scaremongering, it has never occurred and there is no real world example of it.
In contrast, i can point you to COD on consoles, LoL, Halo, minecraft and many more game communities that are so incredibly toxic, that developers and publishers alike have had to release press statements that they would address the issues (Typically with bundles of money)
Can't help but notice you concede previous points made and as usual have focused on your area of expertise; namely moral outrage, moral grandstanding and insulting entire regions due to your inability to relate to others that don't share your incredibly narrow array of sensibilities.
I do not see what points I've conceded? That doesn't sound very much like me, does it? lol Please point them out.
You can hide under your veil of persecution and scream you've been wronged, but i am going to to appeal to you by using your words, "Harden up" and actually provide rebuttals to my arguments instead of ad hominems and victimization.
Here's a summary of my prior response for you to better respond to and address:
Communities can in fact be happy with their friendly gaming community as demonstrated.
Players seeking a friendly community would not be "unhappy no matter what" if they could not find one, they would simply leave as they do currently.
Your slippery slope claim is baseless, it has never occurred.
Its just an excuse to behave as hostile as one pleases without consequence.
There's zero downsides to fostering a friendly community, except for those members who wish to be unfriendly.
And yes.. i will always grandstand when you advocate for a Naturalistic Fallacy.. human history has disproven it time and time again.
We are not limited by our instincts, we have self awareness and logic bound brains and therefore reasoning. As such, morals have naturally (heh) developed to create better civilizations, from laws to prisons, to social curbing, to micro social anxieties on the internet. Why? Because hostile behavior is not conducive to the whole. Please don't make me resort to a Godwin's law as an example.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
I think my post was misconstrued to think that I support making NS2 easier. I don't. It's fine the way it is. I like that the game is hard and takes a lot of effort to get and stay good at it, and I'm okay with not being anything above average at NS2. What I don't like is when people like to look down their nose at the supposed plebs playing things that do not agree with their refined gaming palette. It's elitist snobbery and nothing more.
The same goes for the condescending and dismissive attitude people take for new players or anyone that doesn't spend as much time as them trying to be the absolute best. As has been mentioned NS2 is extremely teamwork oriented and socially driven. You can't effectively learn the game very easily if everyone rolls their eyes and laughs at you when you ask a stupid question. It goes beyond that, though. The amount of times I've joined public servers with a team stacked with smurfing competitive players flat out trolling either their own team or the other team is alarmingly high. I don't think outright hostility counts for a hard stance on not coddling people so that they get the nerfs they want - I mean, be honest, when has that ever even happened in NS2? It's just an excuse to act like a jackass on public servers to people you think of as your lessers.
Personally, I think it's more than a little condescending to fall back on the idea that the current generation is less capable than we were when we were young or that people that grow up playing Halo instead of Quake are somehow worse people because of it.
Worse people? No. Worse gamers? Yes. A majority have no requirement to improve to progress, and many do not have even the concept of 'the game is beating you? Tough. Get better as a player' in mind. The regenerating shield is the go-to prime example. You do something stupid? Hide out for a few seconds, mistake corrected, zero negative consequence aside from having to sit for 10-20 seconds.
Older games? You screw up too much getting to the boss? YOU'RE BONED. Start the level (or being generous, from the respawn point) again and suck less this time, Bucky. Or pray you find a health pack. You learn to STOP making mistakes, when small ones actually add up over time.
The reality is that not many people want to invest all their entertainment time in one or even a small number of games. I play NS2 fairly frequently if for no other reason than I obviously have to or I would be terrible at being a playtester, and I try to play it on top of that for fun because I like the game and I still feel like I suck and need to play it more to be decent. The reality is that I'm just not going to be able to invest more time in NS2 and still be able to play all the other cool new games I want to play, and that's to say nothing of other real-world commitments. I spend way more total time gaming than the average person in my demographic, too, so think about what that says for broader appeal.
I'd also tend to assume that you're in the older demographic with me, with responsibilities such as a job, home maintenance, and other chores to which you need to attend, and no summer vacation/weekends to just blow playing a video game any more. A game with a lower time/skill investment (with less punishment for mistakes) is extra-appealing at that point and seen as a positive, as it does allow less time to be spent for that selfsame reward.
There just isn't the same kind of demand for games that require you to invest yourself in them heavily in order to be successful. That's fine, though. It's okay to have a smaller following because a game is hard. That doesn't mean that the people who don't play it or stick with it are bad, though.
Any MOBA out there. Any MMO out there (top-end content). Any competitive play environment. I know guys who still spend hours each day memorizing every stat and every item, modifier, buff, debuff, assist, interaction and counterplay available just to get that much better. All the while having the game still remain open for rank newbies to join in and button-mash until they win or lose, against other newbies who are doing much of the same thing.
I will agree that many public servers are far too hostile and that many veteran players act very rudely to new and old players alike. It's getting pretty tiring and it's been discouraging me from playing on public servers lately. I hate that feeling because I love NS2 and I want to play it and have fun, but playing a game that is so teamwork oriented and socially driven with people that are dismissive or hostile to anyone outside their own social cliques does not make for a positive experience.
It's kind of always been the problem with any game with a competitive bent. It attracts those who are interested in the game... and those who simply have the urge to put themselves above others for the sake of looking down on others. Not always are the two different people. Unfortunately, with NS2 we have a... veteran culture in place which seems to have veered toward the latter.
Comments
This is his claim: that supporting a non hostile environment will somehow lead to people who are "easily upset by anything remotely negative"...
Its baseless, its scaremongering, it has never occurred and there is no real world example of it.
In contrast, i can point you to COD on consoles, LoL, Halo, minecraft and many more game communities that are so incredibly toxic, that developers and publishers alike have had to release press statements that they would address the issues (Typically with bundles of money)
I do not see what points I've conceded? That doesn't sound very much like me, does it? lol Please point them out.
You can hide under your veil of persecution and scream you've been wronged, but i am going to to appeal to you by using your words, "Harden up" and actually provide rebuttals to my arguments instead of ad hominems and victimization.
Here's a summary of my prior response for you to better respond to and address:
And yes.. i will always grandstand when you advocate for a Naturalistic Fallacy.. human history has disproven it time and time again.
We are not limited by our instincts, we have self awareness and logic bound brains and therefore reasoning. As such, morals have naturally (heh) developed to create better civilizations, from laws to prisons, to social curbing, to micro social anxieties on the internet. Why? Because hostile behavior is not conducive to the whole. Please don't make me resort to a Godwin's law as an example.
The same goes for the condescending and dismissive attitude people take for new players or anyone that doesn't spend as much time as them trying to be the absolute best. As has been mentioned NS2 is extremely teamwork oriented and socially driven. You can't effectively learn the game very easily if everyone rolls their eyes and laughs at you when you ask a stupid question. It goes beyond that, though. The amount of times I've joined public servers with a team stacked with smurfing competitive players flat out trolling either their own team or the other team is alarmingly high. I don't think outright hostility counts for a hard stance on not coddling people so that they get the nerfs they want - I mean, be honest, when has that ever even happened in NS2? It's just an excuse to act like a jackass on public servers to people you think of as your lessers.
Older games? You screw up too much getting to the boss? YOU'RE BONED. Start the level (or being generous, from the respawn point) again and suck less this time, Bucky. Or pray you find a health pack. You learn to STOP making mistakes, when small ones actually add up over time.
I'd also tend to assume that you're in the older demographic with me, with responsibilities such as a job, home maintenance, and other chores to which you need to attend, and no summer vacation/weekends to just blow playing a video game any more. A game with a lower time/skill investment (with less punishment for mistakes) is extra-appealing at that point and seen as a positive, as it does allow less time to be spent for that selfsame reward.
Any MOBA out there. Any MMO out there (top-end content). Any competitive play environment. I know guys who still spend hours each day memorizing every stat and every item, modifier, buff, debuff, assist, interaction and counterplay available just to get that much better. All the while having the game still remain open for rank newbies to join in and button-mash until they win or lose, against other newbies who are doing much of the same thing.
It's kind of always been the problem with any game with a competitive bent. It attracts those who are interested in the game... and those who simply have the urge to put themselves above others for the sake of looking down on others. Not always are the two different people. Unfortunately, with NS2 we have a... veteran culture in place which seems to have veered toward the latter.