OP is right in observing that extra CCs have diminished in value beyond pub-beacon value recently, this does not preclude the idea that all the other Marine structures increased in value, drugs or no drugs.
Even if Marines don't need the 2nd CC for most of their tech, they still the the Extractor in that TP room in order to afford those upgrades.
Marines holding only their Start and 2 natural Extractors will not be able to tech up to the point where AA and JPs are useful. With this in mind, a 2nd CC tech requirement would just be an extra (small) tax on the Marine economy.
Even if this requirment WAS brought back to ease a turtle situation, a JP costs 15 Pres each time, and cannot be recycled like weapons. IF you can hold marines in their base, they wont have the money to re-buy the JPs/Exos. Kill those with the advanced tech when they have no Extractors, and its the same as having a 2nd CC requirement.
As it is, I feel that when Marines loose their map control, they can use their last round of JPs and Weapons to attempt a comeback, and comebacks are a great part of this game!
How unbalanced it is was obviously the implication. If marines can Adv. Tech and Jetpacks on 1 CC then Aliens should be able to Evolve all tiers of upgrades as well except Onos. Whereas dual exo is equivalent to fully upgraded Onos. Therefore statistically speaking Marines are overpowered when the teams are of equivalent skill. :tophat:
God I love the "well this is what it looks like on paper, so it must be imbalanced" argument. Reminds me of the old "SG OP, can 1v1 kill skulk in one shot" threads we used to have. Does anyone even try to play this game using their brain anymore?
Recently I've seen such a game where the com thought it necessary to have a pg and turret setup at every TP and I think I wanted to kill myself.
When I hear scrubs asking for turrets, 4th/5th PG, exo, I just mute straight away. I don't even bother explaining.
Sentries are actually fairly effective in the right situations. 4th phase maybe... probably only because you hold the entire map and want one to push with. Exo should definitely come eventually, if you are trying to rely on JPs alone in pub you really need to get your head out of your ass.
Yes, sentries can be great in the right situations. I have barely ever witnessed them used sensibly in pubs though, they are usually put in base in minute 1 of the game and then put at any extractor the Marines can get to. They usually are then ignored and have massive blind spots.
4 phase gates is *almost always* 1 too many. The fact that there are often 4+ in pubs does not mean that it is best, just that it is commonly done by pub commanders.
Exos can have a use sometimes, but if pub marines improved their aim and game sense, they too would find out that jetpacks offer 10x more effectiveness at a fraction of the cost.
I'm really not trying to be elitist here, but I do want to point out that the vast majority of comp players are able to carry pub teams to victory: they are capable, they understand the game, and most importantly they know how to clinch the victory as early as possible.
The number of pub games we've all seen where the game was over 20 minutes ago is a testament to the fact that most pub teams don't know how to finish the game when they've already won it.
It's not a matter of having one's head up one's ass, it's a matter of playing the game a lot against, and with, good players and having a deeper understanding of the mechanics than the average joe.
When comp players say it's a l2p issue, we're not trying to be condescending, even if that is sometimes an unfortunate side effect.
Sorry for the essay, I just wanted to explain why I disagreed with your post...
You can't tell a pub to L2P. Well you can say it but it certainly isn't going to get you anywhere. Sooner or later you need to rely on what they CAN do, if you can win the game completely independent of your team you probably shouldn't be playing on that server to begin with.
And besides, what I responded to sounds like someone playing com and being so stuck up about what strategies SHOULD work that he forgets who he is playing with and that, as com, everything you do is about your team. That's someone with his head so far up his own ass he hasn't even noticed he is playing on a Pub, and I KNOW it's a pub because otherwise there wouldn't be players for him to mute.
I think both of you are right. You can't play commander on a pub server like you do in a comp game. Some tactics simply do not work. And there is no gain in feeling special because you know so much better and those noobs are to dumb to do what you want from them. Learn to adapt to a situation and work with what you have. That will make you a far better commander.
But teaching new players is also important to increase the knowledge of the overall player base. At least I try this, to have better games in the future for myself.
I've done a fair bit of rookie-team commanding in the last couple of weeks, and I definitely treat them differently to a team that I know isn't full of rookies. The way to get the win that I have found has worked for me 100% of the time so far is by micromanaging the rookies, calling them by name and spamming very obviously the move orders while talking to them. What wins the game is controlling the map and trapping aliens into their 1 hive over the course of the first 5 minutes. Even with derpy marines who can barely hit an onos at 10 yards, as long as they follow orders and you have some idea of how to manage the game, you can really win the game as the commander. Have a look at Bitey's rookie-team commanding vid for the approach, it works amazingly well. And you get thanked for talking to your team and getting them through it. Most of the time you don't even need the arcs to finish the game as by that point the team has got the idea of what you're doing. The last games I've commed in this way have not even seen jetpacks or exos.
NS2 is all about economy. You don't need 'end game tech' to end the game if the other team doesn't even yet have 'mid game tech'
It kind of depends on what 2nd hive gets killed though. It hurts a lot if its a Shift, you probably lost some Spurs and you'd want to get Shift hive back anyway for echoing and enzym. If it was a Craig one, oh well that often means you get all 3 upgrades with just 2 hives. If it was Shade, good, makes room for Shift / Craig.
And while I'm on it, this reminds me of another point that I feel is pertinent to this discussion.
Not every game needs to have jetpacks, exos, arcs, onos, contamination, xenocide etc etc. What keeps those of us who have been playing the game for hundreds or thousands of hours is not 'YAY SHINY TOYS.' I don't love NS2 because it has grenades, flamers, exos, jetpacks, shotguns etc... I love it because of the strategy - the cat and mouse, the economy game, the micro battles, timing lifeforms/tech, picking the right fight to win as a team to get the upper hand in the overall war.
I'm not an RTS player, I'm all about the FPS, so I don't need the complexity of SC2, but NS2 fits me perfectly - it requires FPS skill, but also requires game sense, and knowledge about the economic side of the game.
What interests me most about the game is not the final push to kill the hive: by that point everyone knows the game is over and it's essentially a formality to get the push right. What excites me and keeps me coming back for more is the first phases of the game before the winner is unveiled. On pubs, this typically happens by about 1/4 to 1/2 the way through the final round length. It's better in comp play, because people know a) when to concede and/or b) how to finish the opposition off.
The game ending tech we're talking about here, jps/exos etc, is quite honestly some of the least interesting stuff for long-term NS2 players. Yes it's fun to play with: everyone loves that feeling of jp/shotgunning through a wall of skulks and taking the final hive; but that's just pure FPS fun. By that point the strategy part is all over.
Making pub marines focus on getting a second tech point will really only promote turtling in the way we saw before. Marines HAVE to be aggressive about map control, and that doesn't mean a defensive PG at 2/3 tech points - it means learning when you don't need a PG, and learning where a PG grants you most power. For example, on veil, a double PG at system/nano or dome is an extremely powerful thing, due to the long run times from control. On summit, phase gates are far less important until later in the game as it's much quicker for marines to get out on the field into important positions to pressure alien expansion.
In the recent rookie games I've commed, I have not bothered to put down a second tech point at all, despite controlling at least 2 of them in addition to marine start: they are behind the front line that's constantly held by marines (that can later be supported with phase gates to define the 'front line'. Occasional scanning to ensure there's no sneaky hive means there's no need to spend that 15 res + all the extras you typically see dropped (2 IPs, armory, PG - 80 res total...). That's a lot of marine upgrades you can get for 80 res, and even rookies benefit from a3/w3
I can get behind a w3/a3 extra requirement of some type to weaken marines' 1-base turtle ability if that's really deemed necessary, but since contaminate came in and some pub aliens learned how to coordinate better (latter point still needs work...), either team turtling on 1 tech point is much less of an issue now than it ever was.
Yes, sentries can be great in the right situations. I have barely ever witnessed them used sensibly in pubs though, they are usually put in base in minute 1 of the game and then put at any extractor the Marines can get to. They usually are then ignored and have massive blind spots.
4 phase gates is *almost always* 1 too many. The fact that there are often 4+ in pubs does not mean that it is best, just that it is commonly done by pub commanders.
Exos can have a use sometimes, but if pub marines improved their aim and game sense, they too would find out that jetpacks offer 10x more effectiveness at a fraction of the cost.
I'm really not trying to be elitist here, but I do want to point out that the vast majority of comp players are able to carry pub teams to victory: they are capable, they understand the game, and most importantly they know how to clinch the victory as early as possible.
The number of pub games we've all seen where the game was over 20 minutes ago is a testament to the fact that most pub teams don't know how to finish the game when they've already won it.
It's not a matter of having one's head up one's ass, it's a matter of playing the game a lot against, and with, good players and having a deeper understanding of the mechanics than the average joe.
When comp players say it's a l2p issue, we're not trying to be condescending, even if that is sometimes an unfortunate side effect.
Sorry for the essay, I just wanted to explain why I disagreed with your post...
Sentries are more effective at shooting aliens then the avarage new player/rookie currently. It does help a lot vs unorganized and stupid aliens and can hold off everything until onos. Most of the time gorges don't even know how to bile (assuming their com was smart enough to get bile), and even if they do, they don't know how to do it properly. (though >IF< they do, it becomes an effective way to burn res to place sentries)
Also awesome rookie traps, place some sentries outside a hive and see half the enemy team suciding into the sentries even if you simply can't push that hive at the point.
Recently I've seen such a game where the com thought it necessary to have a pg and turret setup at every TP and I think I wanted to kill myself.
When I hear scrubs asking for turrets, 4th/5th PG, exo, I just mute straight away. I don't even bother explaining.
Sentries are actually fairly effective in the right situations. 4th phase maybe... probably only because you hold the entire map and want one to push with. Exo should definitely come eventually, if you are trying to rely on JPs alone in pub you really need to get your head out of your ass.
This is true, if not for the original flaw of having 4 phase gates in the first place. I mean yeah, if you build more stuff than you need to then you need more players/defenses to keep them alive. Why not save yourself 40 res and drop only 3 gates with no sentries.
I recently commanded some rookie marines on docking and I was able to set up two batteries right next to each other on the north side of stability/the southeast side of generator. It basically kept the rookie aliens busy all game long.
It’s not what they are smoking it’s just they aren’t thinking. Every time they bring something new ability out UWE has to go back and re-work everything they have done thus far. Everything UWE has done in beta has been completely thrown out the window at this point.
What game are you playing? Marines can turtle so much better than Aliens it's not even funny.
Marines get pushed back to 1 CC and what happens? They still have ALL of their upgrades, can spam grenades at the entrances like crazy (literally nonstop explosions) and when the grenadiers finally die their launchers get recycled... Marine comm can also drop structures in the entrances to block out Onos, and 1 or 2 flamethrowers effectively eliminate Lerk spores having any real affect (and can even pop bile bombs in the air, negating that as well)...
Aliens get pushed back to one hive and what happens? They've lost 70% of their lifeform upgrades, (including the loss of leap which renders skulks nearly useless against jetpacks) The loss of biomass cuts back on their overall health, in most cases they lose 2 of 3 upgrades (and can't replace them without the 2nd and 3rd hives) - Up against W3/A3 marines they can do very little to prevent nade spamming, and in many cases 2-3 Marines can effectively destroy an entire hive by doing strafing runs with JP+GL...
To be honest the balance is heavily skewed in the Marine's favor. Take upgrades for example... 1-2 Marines can take out Alien upgrades far easier than 1-2 Aliens can take out the arms lab... When Alien upgrades get taken out they cost another 60 TRES to rebuild.. When Marines lose their arms lab it's a mere 20 TRES. - Or when Aliens lose a hive they have to spend a fortune dropping another hive and slowly re-researching the biomass... Worst case scenario for Marines is to lose their AA and proto, and even then all they need is to re-research AA and redrop a proto... (which is much faster and cheaper than restoring a lost hive)
I have to agree that when Aliens lose their 2nd Hive the game is basically over. Maybe 1 out of every 50 games you might have a chance at a comeback (if your entire team works together for a bile rush or something similar) but even then it often depends on the Marine comm having not dropped a 2nd CC.
Sure you may still have your higher life forms, but Skulks without leap are nearly helpless against JP Marines. (Especially those with shotguns and A3/W3) Your higher life forms have to be extremely skilled in order to hold off upgraded Marines by themselves without dying. (or the Marines have to be extremely bad)
I think requiring a 2nd CC for A3/W3 would be a good first step. I personally think that Marines should have to re-research their upgrades if their only arms lab is destroyed. Taking out the arms lab should be more of a setback than a mere 20 TRES and the 10-15 seconds it takes to rebuild it.
What game are you playing? Marines can turtle so much better than Aliens it's not even funny.
Marines get pushed back to 1 CC and what happens? They still have ALL of their upgrades, can spam grenades at the entrances like crazy (literally nonstop explosions) and when the grenadiers finally die their launchers get recycled... Marine comm can also drop structures in the entrances to block out Onos, and 1 or 2 flamethrowers effectively eliminate Lerk spores having any real affect (and can even pop bile bombs in the air, negating that as well)...
Aliens get pushed back to one hive and what happens? They've lost 70% of their lifeform upgrades, (including the loss of leap which renders skulks nearly useless against jetpacks) The loss of biomass cuts back on their overall health, in most cases they lose 2 of 3 upgrades (and can't replace them without the 2nd and 3rd hives) - Up against W3/A3 marines they can do very little to prevent nade spamming, and in many cases 2-3 Marines can effectively destroy an entire hive by doing strafing runs with JP+GL...
To be honest the balance is heavily skewed in the Marine's favor. Take upgrades for example... 1-2 Marines can take out Alien upgrades far easier than 1-2 Aliens can take out the arms lab... When Alien upgrades get taken out they cost another 60 TRES to rebuild.. When Marines lose their arms lab it's a mere 20 TRES. - Or when Aliens lose a hive they have to spend a fortune dropping another hive and slowly re-researching the biomass... Worst case scenario for Marines is to lose their AA and proto, and even then all they need is to re-research AA and redrop a proto... (which is much faster and cheaper than restoring a lost hive)
I have to agree that when Aliens lose their 2nd Hive the game is basically over. Maybe 1 out of every 50 games you might have a chance at a comeback (if your entire team works together for a bile rush or something similar) but even then it often depends on the Marine comm having not dropped a 2nd CC.
Sure you may still have your higher life forms, but Skulks without leap are nearly helpless against JP Marines. (Especially those with shotguns and A3/W3) Your higher life forms have to be extremely skilled in order to hold off upgraded Marines by themselves without dying. (or the Marines have to be extremely bad)
I think requiring a 2nd CC for A3/W3 would be a good first step. I personally think that Marines should have to re-research their upgrades if their only arms lab is destroyed. Taking out the arms lab should be more of a setback than a mere 20 TRES and the 10-15 seconds it takes to rebuild it.
Confusion about the meaning of the term "turtle" I think. Marines are exceptionally powerful on one base and therefor can turtle at end game for a long time. Aliens are better at turtling the early game. Whips, Hydras, clogs, crags, shade, tunnel, maybe webs if they weren't so late in the game... aliens are much better at holding larger amounts of territory.
Jetpacks are balanced just fine by their relatively high cost, and that you can't recover them.
I'm a bit divided whether W3/A3 should require two CCs, though. On the one hand, it's silly that falling back to one hive means GG for aliens, but marines have virtually no tech difference from falling back to one CC. Once aliens get 3+ hives, it's GG for marines anyway (if it isn't, aliens have themselves to blame). So having a dual CC requirement for W3/A3 is only interesting in the situation when marines have lost or not secured that second CC, and aliens are still at two hives.
My favourite idea would be having two *arms labs* as a prerequisite for W3/A3. Marines would fall back to W2/A2 if one is destroyed, and back to W0/A0 if both are down. Which makes taking a second CC more attractive as a fallback, but not strictly required. If marines turtle on one CC, with two arms labs in the same base, that works fine, but it becomes a bit more vulnerable to bile bomb rushes.
The same could be done with the prototype lab as well, making the prerequisite for dual exo two protos instead of two CCs. Obviously, the res pricing would need to be adjusted, probably by making W3/A3 and dual exo research cheaper to compensate.
Recently I've seen such a game where the com thought it necessary to have a pg and turret setup at every TP and I think I wanted to kill myself.
When I hear scrubs asking for turrets, 4th/5th PG, exo, I just mute straight away. I don't even bother explaining.
I'd take 4th pg over not putting one up to pressure. of course 3 pg is ideal, one at each natural, but meh, not terrible. now if you're recycling gates properly, and they still ask for more gates. fuckem
If the marines are able to research W3A3, AA or a proto... you are letting them control too much res anyway. It has nothing to do with a second chair being built or not. NS2 is a res game. It always has been.
more or less, the downside of jetpacks is getting to jetpacks at the cost of all else.
Too much can already be done with 1 chair. I completely disagree with this and honestly, there are 5 tech points, marines already use less than half of the tp's for all their upgrades.
Comments
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Marines holding only their Start and 2 natural Extractors will not be able to tech up to the point where AA and JPs are useful. With this in mind, a 2nd CC tech requirement would just be an extra (small) tax on the Marine economy.
Even if this requirment WAS brought back to ease a turtle situation, a JP costs 15 Pres each time, and cannot be recycled like weapons. IF you can hold marines in their base, they wont have the money to re-buy the JPs/Exos. Kill those with the advanced tech when they have no Extractors, and its the same as having a 2nd CC requirement.
As it is, I feel that when Marines loose their map control, they can use their last round of JPs and Weapons to attempt a comeback, and comebacks are a great part of this game!
minus 5-7+6-8*100. plus infinity on my side. I win.
God I love the "well this is what it looks like on paper, so it must be imbalanced" argument. Reminds me of the old "SG OP, can 1v1 kill skulk in one shot" threads we used to have. Does anyone even try to play this game using their brain anymore?
You can't tell a pub to L2P. Well you can say it but it certainly isn't going to get you anywhere. Sooner or later you need to rely on what they CAN do, if you can win the game completely independent of your team you probably shouldn't be playing on that server to begin with.
And besides, what I responded to sounds like someone playing com and being so stuck up about what strategies SHOULD work that he forgets who he is playing with and that, as com, everything you do is about your team. That's someone with his head so far up his own ass he hasn't even noticed he is playing on a Pub, and I KNOW it's a pub because otherwise there wouldn't be players for him to mute.
But teaching new players is also important to increase the knowledge of the overall player base. At least I try this, to have better games in the future for myself.
NS2 is all about economy. You don't need 'end game tech' to end the game if the other team doesn't even yet have 'mid game tech'
Not every game needs to have jetpacks, exos, arcs, onos, contamination, xenocide etc etc. What keeps those of us who have been playing the game for hundreds or thousands of hours is not 'YAY SHINY TOYS.' I don't love NS2 because it has grenades, flamers, exos, jetpacks, shotguns etc... I love it because of the strategy - the cat and mouse, the economy game, the micro battles, timing lifeforms/tech, picking the right fight to win as a team to get the upper hand in the overall war.
I'm not an RTS player, I'm all about the FPS, so I don't need the complexity of SC2, but NS2 fits me perfectly - it requires FPS skill, but also requires game sense, and knowledge about the economic side of the game.
What interests me most about the game is not the final push to kill the hive: by that point everyone knows the game is over and it's essentially a formality to get the push right. What excites me and keeps me coming back for more is the first phases of the game before the winner is unveiled. On pubs, this typically happens by about 1/4 to 1/2 the way through the final round length. It's better in comp play, because people know a) when to concede and/or b) how to finish the opposition off.
The game ending tech we're talking about here, jps/exos etc, is quite honestly some of the least interesting stuff for long-term NS2 players. Yes it's fun to play with: everyone loves that feeling of jp/shotgunning through a wall of skulks and taking the final hive; but that's just pure FPS fun. By that point the strategy part is all over.
Making pub marines focus on getting a second tech point will really only promote turtling in the way we saw before. Marines HAVE to be aggressive about map control, and that doesn't mean a defensive PG at 2/3 tech points - it means learning when you don't need a PG, and learning where a PG grants you most power. For example, on veil, a double PG at system/nano or dome is an extremely powerful thing, due to the long run times from control. On summit, phase gates are far less important until later in the game as it's much quicker for marines to get out on the field into important positions to pressure alien expansion.
In the recent rookie games I've commed, I have not bothered to put down a second tech point at all, despite controlling at least 2 of them in addition to marine start: they are behind the front line that's constantly held by marines (that can later be supported with phase gates to define the 'front line'. Occasional scanning to ensure there's no sneaky hive means there's no need to spend that 15 res + all the extras you typically see dropped (2 IPs, armory, PG - 80 res total...). That's a lot of marine upgrades you can get for 80 res, and even rookies benefit from a3/w3
I can get behind a w3/a3 extra requirement of some type to weaken marines' 1-base turtle ability if that's really deemed necessary, but since contaminate came in and some pub aliens learned how to coordinate better (latter point still needs work...), either team turtling on 1 tech point is much less of an issue now than it ever was.
Sentries are more effective at shooting aliens then the avarage new player/rookie currently. It does help a lot vs unorganized and stupid aliens and can hold off everything until onos. Most of the time gorges don't even know how to bile (assuming their com was smart enough to get bile), and even if they do, they don't know how to do it properly. (though >IF< they do, it becomes an effective way to burn res to place sentries)
Also awesome rookie traps, place some sentries outside a hive and see half the enemy team suciding into the sentries even if you simply can't push that hive at the point.
That thing needs a warning sticker.
"This is not a weapon! Babbler guidance recommended."
I recently commanded some rookie marines on docking and I was able to set up two batteries right next to each other on the north side of stability/the southeast side of generator. It basically kept the rookie aliens busy all game long.
What game are you playing? Marines can turtle so much better than Aliens it's not even funny.
Marines get pushed back to 1 CC and what happens? They still have ALL of their upgrades, can spam grenades at the entrances like crazy (literally nonstop explosions) and when the grenadiers finally die their launchers get recycled... Marine comm can also drop structures in the entrances to block out Onos, and 1 or 2 flamethrowers effectively eliminate Lerk spores having any real affect (and can even pop bile bombs in the air, negating that as well)...
Aliens get pushed back to one hive and what happens? They've lost 70% of their lifeform upgrades, (including the loss of leap which renders skulks nearly useless against jetpacks) The loss of biomass cuts back on their overall health, in most cases they lose 2 of 3 upgrades (and can't replace them without the 2nd and 3rd hives) - Up against W3/A3 marines they can do very little to prevent nade spamming, and in many cases 2-3 Marines can effectively destroy an entire hive by doing strafing runs with JP+GL...
To be honest the balance is heavily skewed in the Marine's favor. Take upgrades for example... 1-2 Marines can take out Alien upgrades far easier than 1-2 Aliens can take out the arms lab... When Alien upgrades get taken out they cost another 60 TRES to rebuild.. When Marines lose their arms lab it's a mere 20 TRES. - Or when Aliens lose a hive they have to spend a fortune dropping another hive and slowly re-researching the biomass... Worst case scenario for Marines is to lose their AA and proto, and even then all they need is to re-research AA and redrop a proto... (which is much faster and cheaper than restoring a lost hive)
I have to agree that when Aliens lose their 2nd Hive the game is basically over. Maybe 1 out of every 50 games you might have a chance at a comeback (if your entire team works together for a bile rush or something similar) but even then it often depends on the Marine comm having not dropped a 2nd CC.
Sure you may still have your higher life forms, but Skulks without leap are nearly helpless against JP Marines. (Especially those with shotguns and A3/W3) Your higher life forms have to be extremely skilled in order to hold off upgraded Marines by themselves without dying. (or the Marines have to be extremely bad)
I think requiring a 2nd CC for A3/W3 would be a good first step. I personally think that Marines should have to re-research their upgrades if their only arms lab is destroyed. Taking out the arms lab should be more of a setback than a mere 20 TRES and the 10-15 seconds it takes to rebuild it.
Confusion about the meaning of the term "turtle" I think. Marines are exceptionally powerful on one base and therefor can turtle at end game for a long time. Aliens are better at turtling the early game. Whips, Hydras, clogs, crags, shade, tunnel, maybe webs if they weren't so late in the game... aliens are much better at holding larger amounts of territory.
Sentries make for a good addition to a hive assault.. if you can set them up.
i kinda like your idea
I'd take 4th pg over not putting one up to pressure. of course 3 pg is ideal, one at each natural, but meh, not terrible. now if you're recycling gates properly, and they still ask for more gates. fuckem
more or less, the downside of jetpacks is getting to jetpacks at the cost of all else.
Wait I'm confused, are you supporting 1 tp thing or not?
what's with the third degree, the man obviously just wants to get stoned.