Cilrais_1229

humb1ed · January 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Final version barring major bugs</div> I've done quite a bit of work on the map... fixing the buggered doors, scrapping all the lighting and redoing it all, making all the welds functional, and cutting down on the entities.

Here are the links again, for the new version
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/jacob133/beta.html' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/jacob133/beta.html</a>
<a href='http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/twelve/beta.html' target='_blank'>http://www.angelfire.com/amiga/twelve/beta.html</a>
<a href='http://www.umich.edu/~jadega/ns_cilrais_1229.zip' target='_blank'>http://www.umich.edu/~jadega/ns_cilrais_1229.zip</a>

Overview still the same: <a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/overview.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/overview.jpg</a>

<img src='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais4.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<img src='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
the rest of the images-
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais4.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais5.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais1.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais1.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais6.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais6.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais7.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais7.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais8.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais8.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais9.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais9.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais10.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais10.jpg</a>
<a href='http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais11.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.boomspeed.com/brer/cilrais11.jpg</a>

So far i've had relatively little interest in the map, but if there is a server admin that would be willing to work with me on some gameplay issues and balancing, I am willing to put more time into the map. If not, enjoy. By the way, feedback is wonderful.

biofrog · January 2003

Wow, i really like the third pic, that room looks very nice.

Droggog · January 2003

Hi

I just tested your map, great work!

I like:

- the architecture and design of the mantle hive.
- the rain sound & visual effect at some locations.
- can see outside, i just like that.
- the layout of the map. (it's big)
- command access south corridors. (i like the architecture & that greenish texture on the roofs)
- the lights that turns on when soldiers walk on it. (really fun 2 see as a comm, good looking)
- command access west. (very good architecture)
- the weldable that opens access to mantle hive.
- torridity control north. (i like that room don't ask me why, simple architecture but good looking)
- the well-placed vents scattered around the map. (skulk paradise)

I don't like:

- the "eclipse-like" effect on almost every res node.
- the thunder sound. (when the rain start, it's of poor quality compared to the great rain sound)
- the red env_sky. (not a problem with the red color, but i dunno, it's ugly)
- the marine start room. (small, not very good architecture in my opinion)
- too much different light colors. (some areas have green lights, some red, some yellow, some even have a pinkish light environement (like in surface mantle annex))
- the ready room. (ok, that's not the most important part, but it just doesnt reflect the good quality of the map)

Hope i dont sound rude when i say all that, remember it's only my opinion.
Again; great work!

Lord_Requiem · January 2003

My opinion after running through it a few times:

Pros:

Very nice environmental sounds and rain effects
A few VERY nicely done ambient areas with great ambient lighting and sound
Feels more open, not so clausterphobic like current NS maps
Good alternate access system (vents, that tram tracks thing on the top)

Cons:

The thunder effect when the level starts is much too short. It just breaks off when it should rumble for at least a few more seconds.

Use of light colors contrasts too much and there is far too much light in general. One example is the corridor with about 16 or 20 red slanted lights, when 2 or 3 would make it much more interesting and spooky. If you're going to use different color lighting try to use it in separate areas, not together in the same area.

The lights that light up when you walk past them are beyond pointless, because you can't even barely see them light up due to the extremely bright room lighting. Get rid of the rest of the room lighting if you want to make them interesting, and make them stay on for longer after being walked past.

The floor in many places in the map likes to do that "alternately lower/higher" motif, like a step down then immediatly a step back up then back down back up back down back up, over and over again. It frankly sucks on an NS map because it constantly changes your perspective on what you are looking at, and especially as a skunk because you have a tendancy to wallclimb up the little tiny edges due to being so close to the floor.

The eclipse effect on most of the res nodes and also in many other places. I know electricity is cool, but try to keep the use to a minimum so when you do use it the effect is not lost on the audience.

And, lastly, something I'm not sure if I like or not: That really REALLY steep corridor that ends up in a room with a res node and some water, when you run down the corridor and burst out thru the door into the room perspective feels TOTALLY WRONG even tho its actually right, you feel like you are still slanted down. I'm not sure if you intended this or not but if you did, then well done because it worked.

Overall a good map tho, I liked running thru it and hope some servers run it in the rotation.

Ollj · January 2003

this is the one the best architecture (pahts crossing each other in curves and diagonals) and vent system (railway).
To bad that lightning and design kills much of the atmosphere.
This purple light looks bad because its the "contra color" to alien-infested-green- light thats in 50% of the map.
contra-colors: 2 colors that additive mixed (with light) make -> 255 255 255 White
2 contra colors next to each other always have a huge contrast, wich, if used, should be used more wisely.
the way you used textures ... they have hard contratst, too.

As alien walking over the "__-__-__-__-__" flooring makes me drive crazy.
Clip brushes needed here to make all the steps smoother.

Lord_Requiem · January 2003

Glad Im not the only one who absolutely HATES -_-_-_-_- flooring. I will not play ANY map that uses that kind of floor a lot.

Lord_Requiem · January 2003

Thief 2 = Best. Game. Ever.

Please drive through.

humb1ed · January 2003

I was just about ready to get angry and depressed because of some of this negative feedback, but after thinking about it for a while I think that you were all right in many of criticisms, and I appreciate that a lot. So i'll go through some of them.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-the red env_sky. (not a problem with the red color, but i dunno, it's ugly)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I had originally intended it to be a green sky, because the sky shows around the surface hive which has primarily green light, this would also get rid of the nasty green/red contrast (which was a nice Christmas touch :) )

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-the marine start room. (small, not very good architecture in my opinion)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I also wanted to try some different things with this map, the marine spawn is intentionally sized, hopefully helping a mobile based and multi-based marine team. Its hard to tell if it is too small without really playing it, but the games i've played haven't run into problems. Plus there are plenty of other locations to set up bases. The architecture is also simple to help r_speeds hopefully, the marine spawn is always the area with the most buildings and usually a big fps hit.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-too much different light colors. (some areas have green lights, some red, some yellow, some even have a pinkish light environement (like in surface mantle annex))</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I guess the intention of the lighting like this was to make a theme of lighting around each hive, to help learn the map easier. And that pinkish lighting is the sky in surface/mantle annex. green=surface/red=core/yellow=mantle

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>- the thunder sound. (when the rain start, it's of poor quality compared to the great rain sound)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I will find a better sound :)

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>-Use of light colors contrasts too much and there is far too much light in general. One example is the corridor with about 16 or 20 red slanted lights, when 2 or 3 would make it much more interesting and spooky. If you're going to use different color lighting try to use it in separate areas, not together in the same area.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I chose to use colored lighting as the main lighting near the hives, for better or worse, just as a matter of personal taste I guess. And because I thought it might be nice (but apparently isn't :) ) to try something else than white/gray light mixed with splashes of contrasting colored lighting. And I do agree that a few lights dimmed out would be a nice touch. As for the too much light in general see below.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The floor in many places in the map likes to do that "alternately lower/higher" motif</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
haha, you think that is annoying as a skulk? try it as an onos... you lose all of your momentum. It definately needs to be clipped

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The eclipse effect on most of the res nodes and also in many other places</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I would agree that is on 5 or 6 of the res nodes, but I don't remember putting it anywhere else, it is consistent and not distracting to me since seems like a node is sort of power outlet.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That really REALLY steep corridor that ends up in a room with a res node</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Is it REALLY that steep? Maybe I should add a little elevator there then?

And finally, the lighting being too bright is a mishap. I messed with the gamma and forgot to change it back to a reasonable value for the lighting in the map. It worked fine on my run through, though it must have been different for my monitor because when I tried it just now on a different computer, it was way too bright with no contrast, so you are correct again. I will work on all of these suggestions and thank you for being upfront.

sySTEm1 · January 2003

spectator mode doth not work propleh. try it and see what i mean.

Lord_Requiem · January 2003

Even without a env_gamma its going to be too bright. There are simply FAR too many texlights.

The steep hallway I'm talking about is the "Tram access south" ramp to Torridity Control North I think, try it a few times with the marine and walk down the ramp with the gun pointed in various angles, make sure to go fast and go thru the door fast, you'll see what I mean. Its a pretty disorienting effect.

humb1ed · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Even without a env_gamma its going to be too bright. There are simply FAR too many texlights.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
hahahahaha, if you say so, it must be the truth.

Lord_Requiem · January 2003

humbed: I've been thru the exact same thing with too many texlights, if you have 10-50 texlights in a room you can set env_gamma to whatever you like and its still going to be ugly uniform bland lighting. But ignore me if you like, after all its just an opinion. If you like it, then keep it.

humb1ed · January 2003

I guess it also depends on what you have in your .rad though during the compile, but your suggestion of alternating some bright and others dim or off will be implemented. And I will hopefully get this all fixed up again soon, even though I just fried my processor the other day (eh, it was cheap) in an unfortunate wiring accident. I will post again in a couple of weeks with the updates, until then good luck with your own projects.

And I also had one more question to ask. How does the ingame brightness compare to the pictures in the first post?

Lucid · January 2003

marine spawn screenie looks bad***

Lucid · January 2003

definately the most creative NS map to date, love the vents, and i like how you have a larger "vent" system going. Great atmosphere. awesome job

evoLvingeviL · January 2003

Solidly built, despite that the lighting and texturing needs just a wee bit more polish.

And HOLEE CRAPOLA! After running around in this place, D00D, you rock ON when it comes to design... the vent system and paths are just CRAZY. I can't wait to see how this sucker plays in an all-out battle.

Yeah, CRAZY design. Crazy in a good way. The train-track sort of idea was implemented perfectly, it makes the crap in HL look very sad compared to your NS-style badassness.

I think, with a little more attention to cosmetics, this map will r00l.

Doombringer · January 2003

Just from looking at the overhead, I can tell this map will be fun to play. Definitely going to try it out <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Edit: Gave it a run through. I like the rain/water effects and how you can see outside, but can't get outside. Gives the illusion that the facility is not just in the middle of a void. I also like the architecture, it's very detailed in places you wouldn't expect. The larger vent system is something I haven't seen on an NS map yet and is very cool, I especially like the little bridges going over the regular hallways.

My only gripe is what others are facing: uneven floors. They look neat but are not very functional. If some poor worker in this facility ever had to wheel a handtruck down one of these hallways, he'd be in trouble! I say, either flatten out hallways/door thresholds physically or use a clipping thinger.

Very cool altogether <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> How long have you been making maps?

CallMessiah · January 2003

Nice work, I must say.
I really, as many before me, love that railway track you have trough the whole map it is just, I don't know, awesome. When I first saw the ladder leader up to it by the recourse node, I thought that was a bad idea, because marines would to easily enter the track there, but then I tried and got fried, nice trick. Although I think the whole track is to close to the floor by that room s two marines standing on top of each other can jump in without the ladder and set up a phase gate or something, which makes the system vulnerable to marines early into the game.
What I too do like is the outside shown throughout the whole map and I actually think the pinkish lighting works quite well with it, leave it that way. Concerning the rain, that is great to, I used that in my own readyroom too.
The lighting is a little bland in places, but you covered that, you said. Though I have to say I think it's perfect in the tram tunnel up there. I don't actually care that much about the lighting, since I think it is the hardest and most broing part of mapping.
YOu could work on the architecture and texturing in many places, although the overall layout and feel is just brilliant. And, yes just take those strange -_-_- hallways out, they were annoying in nancy(although it is one of my favourite maps), they still are in your map.
Hm... what else... oh yes, if you run out of clipbrushes, adding more architectural details, (like I did) lower the middle part of the tram tunnel eight units, it will free up quite abit I think and doesnt make the tunnel better anyway.

Lord_Requiem · January 2003

Yeah humbed allow me to clarify: My gripes were not with the design of the map structure or anything like that, it was mostly aesthetics which often vary from person to person. I agree this will be a fun map to play and can't wait to play it online.

Now if Alltel would just provision my line properly you'd see me back online again... stupids gave me PPPoE for no reason.

Bytor · January 2003

I took a run through this map last night, and I was very impressed. The architecture is very creative ... I love how various areas connect to each other, as opposed to just a bunch of rooms connected by hallways. You've inspired me to rethink how I connect the rooms in my map. Your use of the vertical dimension is also really good, the level isn't "flat" at all.

My only criticism would be to use fewer different textures and less variance in color. None of the areas really seem to have a "theme" to them at all. In other words, the texturing seems a bit too busy, and the lighting is rather plain, which seems to prevent it from having any real atmosphere. (The hives are the exception, they are sweet.) This is a minor gripe, and somewhat a matter of opinion, so ignore me at will. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'> The level rocks as it is and I really want to play a match on it. I might have to organize a pickup on my server soon.

And for the record, I think the red sky is cool, and I like how you have the red bleed into the level where the sky is visible.

humb1ed · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I think, with a little more attention to cosmetics</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>YOu could work on the architecture and texturing in many places</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>it was mostly aesthetics</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In other words, the texturing seems a bit too busy, and the lighting is rather plain, which seems to prevent it from having any real atmosphere</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

hmm... what to work on... haha, read on to find out my plight

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>How long have you been making maps?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Before this was just a couple CS maps, i.e. not much experience doing any lighting. I had never even used a spotlight or texture lighting until this map, but I will definately keep working on the map's aesthetics because there is a lot of room for improvement, as you all have pointed out. Give me a few weeks and thanks again for your replies...

TikiTorchBob · January 2003

I don't know if someone said this (I didn't read through everyones posts) but one of your nodes' func_conveyor still has push on, that is..you move when you stand on it.

Also, in the slanted hallway with the red lights (on the way to the core hive), where you can see the 'beam' from the lights, if you walk into them a certain way it's like a wall. You can't go through it. It's not all of them, I only noticed that in one.

Sorry if someone already said those, if so just ignore me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

I really like that rain effect you did, it looks cool. That hot pink lighting for outdoors though..arrgghh <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'>

watch_me_die · January 2003

Two small things I noticed:

- the door exiting the marine spawn has a gap on the left hand side which you can see through
<img src='http://merkury.orcon.net.nz/gap.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

- one of the vents has some missing surfaces
<img src='http://merkury.orcon.net.nz/surface.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>

inn · January 2003

We put it on our scrim server, in fact going to play it now, and I'll see how it plays and if you want to work on any bugs/glitches that we find. Any within your power of course. The SS's look good, and I'm always welcome to new maps seeing how the same ones over and over get redundant.

*edit*
After running through it, one word....... HUGE
I did notice that vent *picture above* but don't really remember where it's at, didn't notice the door though; good eye. The multi lighting is a bit iffy (color wise), as well as the of the unlevel floors (looks good in some places), but overall I like it, good architecture and the rain gives it a nice effect. Big map gives the chance of fully developed teams battling, something not too common in this game. Also seems like an alien heaven early on with all the vents and overhead advantage, can you say ambush. The long hallways, however, will be a marine advantage... for awhile. Will try it out with more people so we can get a game going on it, only had 2 to run through it with.

One other thing that I noticed, the res nodes don't appear on the com view, atleast they didn't for me. Actually had to scroll to find them, which may or may not have been what you planned, which also makes the hives hard to notice without going everwhere at first in the CC.. um, they are there now???.....

Lightning_Blue · January 2003

It's on my server now, link in sig.

Looks nice can't wait to play it tonight <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

coil · January 2003

Humb1ed, very nice map! I have 3 major gripes with the map. One, the uneven floors, has been mentioned and you know it's an issue.

Second is the ceiling detail. It looks great, but in many places it REALLY hampers commander interaction. Areas I noticed in particular are the Marine Start (that's a very bad thing, to have difficulting seeing your own base) and more than one of the hives. Some of the resource nodes are difficult to place - ESPECIALLY the one in Surface Mantle Access. Because of the ceiling architecture, it is only placeable if you approach it from the bottom right (the nozzle must be at the top left corner of your screen). It's possible to use func_seethroughs (I believe) to make things clearer for the Commander (example of a func_seethrough can be seen in Hera's Marine Start).

Lastly is the tram tunnels. While I definitely like the idea, and it presents a different but believable "vent" system... I can see a HUGE problem in gameplay. All you need is a few marines with Jetpacks, and those nice open hallways are an alien deathtrap. Jetpacks mean that aliens have to defend 4 or sometimes 5 accesses to each hive, and they are at a substantial disadvantage trying to fight the marines in the tram tunnels, where there is no cover at all.

I'd suggest some structural damage in the tunnels - either to provide cover, or to create sections that are only passable by climbing or flying. This will make them a less attractive option for marine teams, as well as a more easily defensible approach for aliens. And unless you're putting func_nobuilds in them, keep in mind that they're FABULOUS spots for siege/phase forward bases.

humb1ed · January 2003

Everyone is definately pointing out some great stuff! But I can't really comment on gameplay stuff, only my theories on why things are the way they are, though untested. Lets see, the map does play a lot larger than other maps because it has an extremely linear ground layout, with a marine spawn and three spokes and the tram system is sort of like the tire on the wheel, going all the way around the outside. Is a tri-linear layout a good thing? Hopefully (at least how I planned it) was for this to be mostly beneficial to aliens, because they move faster and because they have access to more direct and safe routes in the trams and vent. But, if the marines manage to get phase gates up in a protected area (which areas I am still unsure of, as of no playtesting) it will also take the aliens a fairly long travel to get to the phase... maybe 20-30 seconds between hives, obviously without movement chambers. For this reason it should also be important for the marines, if they can, to not only make seige bases in the tram entrances to hives, but also to secure the middle of the tram (between the hives) to stop the aliens from travelling back and forth so easily. Since the tram intersects each hive twice, building towers just at one tram entrance to the hive will not stop the aliens from travelling via the tram.

What else... the marines, in-turn get those wide open halls throughout the map as well as welding access in two places to the tram, three welds that block vents near the marine spawn, and another weld that gives one more access to one of the hives (where it is not possible to get into the tram nearby with welder). I don't know if anyone else gets excited about this, but I picture some really cool battles between lerks flying and skulks leaping and marines with jetpacks because the map is so big and because the hallways and trams are so wide open it is extremely helpful to travel via jetpack and lerking. Especially when you can get on the ceiling in the tram and travel so much faster. Once you get skilled enough with the lerk in the tram, you can cut down your travel times between hives by at least half over the skulk. One other cool trick I'll mention is in the mantle hive, you can fly figure-8's around the huge cylinders, or at least you can fly in loops going full speed around and around the cylinders banking off the walls inside the indent, its funny to see anyways, not sure how effective of a tactic it is though, besides making you hard to shoot :). I also find it extremely useful to use the skulks leap ability, for drive by chomping.

As far as the trams being too good of a spot for the marines to seige hives, I will decide after playtesting. If anything, if it needs to fixed (which I fear it most likely will) I would add debris, but probably only near the hive entrances and I could also make the lighting contrast much higher, allowing aliens to have a greater advantage in the tram for ambushing.

Okay and about the ceilings and commander viewing problems. The marine spawn should be fixed I agree, but in surface/mantle annex it is a harder thing to do since there is that grating there, which cannot be given the func_seethrough entity, or else you wouldn't be able to see it anymore or at least thats the way I understood it, if someone knows better than I, please explain. The way it is now the grating is a func_wall with the flag set for invisible from top down, that way skulks can climb on it, which is necessary.

Umbraed_Monkey · January 2003

not sure if you meant it this way, but one of the res nodes have lightning that pushes you (like a conveyor belt)

Driftwood · January 2003

Ok, you can forget my criticism about the old version. Added detail does wonders and it doesn't feel like such a maze anymore. Actually, it feels very good. It is still very big, but I imagine it begins to feel smaller when you learn it better. All looks good and the final question is the playtesting. Hope it works out, because I really like the concept of this map. Good job.

Cilrais_1229

Comments