Ok let's get this topic back on track, it quickly turned into a debate (if you can call it that) about HA HMG vs fades. When that was not at all the original point.
To recap: One UNUPGRADED HA/HMG marine plus a welder costs the marines 366 6 UPGRADED Fades out of a team of 7 aliens costs 405 We can disregard the cost of skulks carapaces as that can vary widely and is easily canceled out by any of the dozen miscellaneous expenses a comm may have.
This is all a fact. Now lets examine THIS SCENARIO, which is easily the case in pub games. If the marines go for any upgrades, they will get the HA HMG even later. If they go for any defenses, even later still. The unupgraded HA has 500 hitpoints, it takes 9 direct acid rockets or 7 swipes to kill him. Each fade (with carapace) has 714.3 hitpoints and can take 32 level 0 HMG rounds (32 is a lot more then it sounds like).
So throwing in motion tracking for the marines, the res costs are roughly equal. The marines hold one hive with no defenses and few res points with no defenses or alternately one hive with defenses with even more time till HA. Assuming 7 + comm vs 7, the marines with 1 HA have a total of 1357 hitpoints whereas the 6 fades will have 4286. Now in addition to this huge advantage throw in a lerk with umbra, acid rocket splash damage, guerilla tactics, super mobility, a gorge healing them and throwing up webs, and/or a nearby wall of lame to retreat to.
Keep in mind this is the MIDGAME and we have assumed both sides have performed roughly equally, getting 3 nodes a piece and each holding a hive. Which side looks to you like it has the upper hand? Still convinced the midgame is balanced?
Conclusion: No matter what anyone says a lev 3 marine is not equivalent to a fade not to mention it takes 12 minutes and 240 res to get lev 3 upgrades (or 6 minutes 285 res with 2 arms labs). <b>If the marines race to get HA HMG they might get one by the time fades appear, but it doesnt matter because they are dead. If they focus on ANYTHING else, they lose the one supposed equivalent marines have to a fade.</b>
The fades should be slowed back down to what they were at release. Fades just splash ha marines a few times, run away and the marines can never catch up. repeat. Fully decked out marines should be able to go head to head with fades, but in all the cases ive seen(my personal experience) fades have been owning since the first or second server patch.
Umm, you forget to take into account that the 366 for a marine is for the first one only. Subsequent marines are much cheaper, plus they are much faster to outfit than evolving to a fade. Also, if the 366 includes buildings such as the arms lab and prototype lab (not sure on those names, I just think of them as "that building" and "that other building") you are assuming they are used for nothing except getting that one marine his ha/hmg.
<!--QuoteBegin--Weedkiller+Jan 7 2003, 06:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Weedkiller @ Jan 7 2003, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umm, you forget to take into account that the 366 for a marine is for the first one only. Subsequent marines are much cheaper, plus they are much faster to outfit than evolving to a fade. Also, if the 366 includes buildings such as the arms lab and prototype lab (not sure on those names, I just think of them as "that building" and "that other building") you are assuming they are used for nothing except getting that one marine his ha/hmg.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes exactly the 366 is for the first HA only, while the 405 is for the first 6 upgraded fades only. The subsequent costs are 57 a piece for each HA HMG + welder and 46 for each fade, further supporting the point. As for evolving speed, pick a spot in the middle of the map and see who gets there first the fade or the HA HMG; there goes your speed advantage.
The buildings the aliens build have multiple benefits as well. As for the marine buildings, yes I assumed they were used for nothing else because I was discussing a rush for HA as fast as possible. The more you use these buildings, the later you will have HA. This goes without saying.
IF there are two or more marines shooting at the same Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if there are 2 fades firing at the 2 lmgs? And if there is umbra? And if there is healing nearby? I reiterate my point that fades > upgrades especially considering the time and resource disparity.
quite simply. and HA/HMG marine is worthless without support, while a fade can work on his own or in a pair very easily. Everyones played DM, and we all know how to work on our own. One marine with a guy welding him, and health and ammo spam from the commander ties up 3 marine team players, and on 7v7 thats a lot of the team, just trying to take down one lone fade.
Those marines have little chance if the fade is supported by a lerk, a gorge or another fade.
HMG marines at range wouold be better pulling thier pistols and all putting a clip of 200 damage into the fade, but they can't do that - they've all been equiped with welders.
I'd rather my comm spend money on getting me l3 upgrades for armour and wpn and handing out jetpacks. On pub servers, where you're not going to get the support you need from comm & team for HA, the money would be far better spent.
Hm, forgot fades are cheaper. As for who gets there faster, try it with just one pair of teleportals. And even if you go for HA asap, there is a good chance you'll upgrade stuff afterwards, even just once, and then it's permanent. And while the fades have healing, the marines have med kits and people who can weld them.
I'm not saying these necessarily make the teams more or less even, just that there is more to take into account.
<!--QuoteBegin--Big Game Hunter+Jan 7 2003, 10:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Big Game Hunter @ Jan 7 2003, 10:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One UNUPGRADED HA/HMG marine plus a welder costs the marines 366 6 UPGRADED Fades out of a team of 7 aliens costs 405 We can disregard the cost of skulks carapaces as that can vary widely and is easily canceled out by any of the dozen miscellaneous expenses a comm may have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> on the other hand.
10 max upgraded standart marines = 330
20 max upgraded standart marines = 330
50 max upgraded stantartmarines plus sentries doing 35 damage instead of 27 = 330
Just built 2 arms labs and research weapon and armour upgrades contineously.
And standart marines can rush a fade better than a HA/HMG, coz they are faster and skilled players can even dodge an acidrocket.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One reason that Fades sometimes seem superior is the fact that most COM's try to go for the win immediatly, basically putting all the resources into getting and holding two hives. If one of those hives then fall, the marines don't have a backup plan (ie: upgrades) most of the time. Basically people are playing for broke, either win big or lose big.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is so true, but back to the main topic...
Yes, it does seem to take a bit longer for Marines to get HA/HMG than it does for Aliens to get Fades. But I don't really see the problem with this. Marines have an advantage in the early game. They are then trumped by Fades and the Aliens gain the advantage. This forces the Marines to finish upgrading to get the advantage back (you did start upgrading while you had the upper hand, yes?).
This of course assumes you take a standard, non-innovative path to the HA/HMG. For example, if you decide to get HMGs early and are smart about using them (making sure Marines keep recycling the weapon after one falls) you can COMPLETELY dominate in the early game as Marines. However, there is nothing the Aliens can do to emulate this. No "early trick" to gain such a large advantage. They are still stuck at Skulks until hive two comes online, thus they are predictable. Not only this, but Marines outspawn Aliens 2 to 1 until the Aliens get a second hive. Thus increasing the early power of Marines even FURTHER.
So I put forward that the game isn't necessarily about being even at each stage of the game, but rather surviving the onslaught of the opponent until you can enter your next phase and trump what they have. That's just my opinion though.
Comments
To recap:
One UNUPGRADED HA/HMG marine plus a welder costs the marines 366
6 UPGRADED Fades out of a team of 7 aliens costs 405
We can disregard the cost of skulks carapaces as that can vary widely and is easily canceled out by any of the dozen miscellaneous expenses a comm may have.
This is all a fact. Now lets examine THIS SCENARIO, which is easily the case in pub games. If the marines go for any upgrades, they will get the HA HMG even later. If they go for any defenses, even later still. The unupgraded HA has 500 hitpoints, it takes 9 direct acid rockets or 7 swipes to kill him. Each fade (with carapace) has 714.3 hitpoints and can take 32 level 0 HMG rounds (32 is a lot more then it sounds like).
So throwing in motion tracking for the marines, the res costs are roughly equal. The marines hold one hive with no defenses and few res points with no defenses or alternately one hive with defenses with even more time till HA. Assuming 7 + comm vs 7, the marines with 1 HA have a total of 1357 hitpoints whereas the 6 fades will have 4286. Now in addition to this huge advantage throw in a lerk with umbra, acid rocket splash damage, guerilla tactics, super mobility, a gorge healing them and throwing up webs, and/or a nearby wall of lame to retreat to.
Keep in mind this is the MIDGAME and we have assumed both sides have performed roughly equally, getting 3 nodes a piece and each holding a hive. Which side looks to you like it has the upper hand? Still convinced the midgame is balanced?
Conclusion: No matter what anyone says a lev 3 marine is not equivalent to a fade not to mention it takes 12 minutes and 240 res to get lev 3 upgrades (or 6 minutes 285 res with 2 arms labs).
<b>If the marines race to get HA HMG they might get one by the time fades appear, but it doesnt matter because they are dead. If they focus on ANYTHING else, they lose the one supposed equivalent marines have to a fade.</b>
IF there are two or more marines shooting at the same Fade.
Yes exactly the 366 is for the first HA only, while the 405 is for the first 6 upgraded fades only. The subsequent costs are 57 a piece for each HA HMG + welder and 46 for each fade, further supporting the point. As for evolving speed, pick a spot in the middle of the map and see who gets there first the fade or the HA HMG; there goes your speed advantage.
The buildings the aliens build have multiple benefits as well. As for the marine buildings, yes I assumed they were used for nothing else because I was discussing a rush for HA as fast as possible. The more you use these buildings, the later you will have HA. This goes without saying.
<!--QuoteBegin--Gelantious+Jan 7 2003, 06:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gelantious @ Jan 7 2003, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lvl 3 LMG Kicks Fades ****.
IF there are two or more marines shooting at the same Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if there are 2 fades firing at the 2 lmgs? And if there is umbra? And if there is healing nearby? I reiterate my point that fades > upgrades especially considering the time and resource disparity.
Those marines have little chance if the fade is supported by a lerk, a gorge or another fade.
HMG marines at range wouold be better pulling thier pistols and all putting a clip of 200 damage into the fade, but they can't do that - they've all been equiped with welders.
I'd rather my comm spend money on getting me l3 upgrades for armour and wpn and handing out jetpacks. On pub servers, where you're not going to get the support you need from comm & team for HA, the money would be far better spent.
I'm not saying these necessarily make the teams more or less even, just that there is more to take into account.
One UNUPGRADED HA/HMG marine plus a welder costs the marines 366
6 UPGRADED Fades out of a team of 7 aliens costs 405
We can disregard the cost of skulks carapaces as that can vary widely and is easily canceled out by any of the dozen miscellaneous expenses a comm may have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on the other hand.
10 max upgraded standart marines = 330
20 max upgraded standart marines = 330
50 max upgraded stantartmarines plus sentries doing 35 damage instead of 27 = 330
Just built 2 arms labs and research weapon and armour upgrades contineously.
And standart marines can rush a fade better than a HA/HMG, coz they are faster and skilled players can even dodge an acidrocket.
This is so true, but back to the main topic...
Yes, it does seem to take a bit longer for Marines to get HA/HMG than it does for Aliens to get Fades. But I don't really see the problem with this. Marines have an advantage in the early game. They are then trumped by Fades and the Aliens gain the advantage. This forces the Marines to finish upgrading to get the advantage back (you did start upgrading while you had the upper hand, yes?).
This of course assumes you take a standard, non-innovative path to the HA/HMG. For example, if you decide to get HMGs early and are smart about using them (making sure Marines keep recycling the weapon after one falls) you can COMPLETELY dominate in the early game as Marines. However, there is nothing the Aliens can do to emulate this. No "early trick" to gain such a large advantage. They are still stuck at Skulks until hive two comes online, thus they are predictable. Not only this, but Marines outspawn Aliens 2 to 1 until the Aliens get a second hive. Thus increasing the early power of Marines even FURTHER.
So I put forward that the game isn't necessarily about being even at each stage of the game, but rather surviving the onslaught of the opponent until you can enter your next phase and trump what they have. That's just my opinion though.
i really whould like to have a test, say nobody attack untill the second hive or something like that
i have also come to the conclusion that level 3 upgrades pwn j00 fades...........
i want to see how long it takes for each team to get to mid game in a controlled game