ns2_relic
Olmy
Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond
Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond
So after Biodome, I started working on a small scene based on one of the unused ns2 concepts and this grew into a full greybox map. After a couple of months of making layout changes based on feedback I've received already, I think it's ready to show publicly, if only to get more feedback from people. Please keep in mind this map is in the really early stages. Currently there are only two detailed areas (and neither are finished), and right now my focus is getting the layout right so that it's actually fun. 
So without further ado...
Relic is a 5 tech point map set in an extremely remote terraforming facility called 'Hellas' that was abandoned decades ago. The landmark feature in the map is 'Mohole', an enormous artificial shaft dug kilometers deep to increase heat release from within the planet's mantle. The rest of the map is mostly infrastructure for the town sized workforce that once lived and worked there. This includes a vehicle route which forms the 'spine' of the map (think the ns2_tram tunnels).
Relic in steam workshop
Known issues:
Fusor texturing is all out of alignment.
Greybox looks like crap!
I'll continue to work on this when I can, but it's not an official map so I can only do so much. I might be getting help from other mappers at some point with the detailing phase, so we'll see how that goes. Ideally I'd like to get this map done in a few months, but I know that's really ambitious and maybe not even realistic.
So without further ado...
Relic is a 5 tech point map set in an extremely remote terraforming facility called 'Hellas' that was abandoned decades ago. The landmark feature in the map is 'Mohole', an enormous artificial shaft dug kilometers deep to increase heat release from within the planet's mantle. The rest of the map is mostly infrastructure for the town sized workforce that once lived and worked there. This includes a vehicle route which forms the 'spine' of the map (think the ns2_tram tunnels).
Relic in steam workshop
Known issues:
Fusor texturing is all out of alignment.
Greybox looks like crap!
I'll continue to work on this when I can, but it's not an official map so I can only do so much. I might be getting help from other mappers at some point with the detailing phase, so we'll see how that goes. Ideally I'd like to get this map done in a few months, but I know that's really ambitious and maybe not even realistic.
Comments
You are aware Olmy is the one who made ns2_tram, right?
Looking awesome Olmy!
Theme:
- Normally I would think of a mohole being dug somewhere already deep, but this seems like it's high on a mountain, just due to some of the places like "crevasse." What's your vision?
- How do you envision the "outside" parts of the map working? Are there going to be that many places open to the sky or is that just an artifact of them being unfinished? At the moment the inside/outside relationship is a little unclear. What will lerks do? Are we going to be quickly hitting the invisible walls, or do you have buildings with roofs in mind?
- The mohole is epic.
- Fusors is gorgeous.
- I love the big vehicles as a bit of the "architecture" though it's not clear for some of them how they got there are where they could drive from there. I trust you've thought that through
- You sure do love that blue/red theme.
Gameplay:
- The shortest routes between tech points generally don't encounter a resource point on the way. It seems like with the current layout, pressuring rts vs pressuring techpoints are going to be mutually exclusive decisions. Most of the techpoints are on the eastern perimeter, while the rts without techpoints are mostly west. Do you anticipate the battles being a little less focused than other maps? It seems like unless you get boxed in entirely, you'll be able to take a second tech point without difficulty since they all have one nearby, so holding any particular spot won't be as important. I'm generally open minded about this stuff, just curious about your thoughts.
- The level over level areas seem hard to hold for marines. Skulks will have their pick of angles to approach from, and will be within closing distance immediately. I'm thinking specifically about some of the areas around comms tower and middle route.
- Internal glass makes me sad. It's hard to see.
Bugs:
- It looks like the hive in Administration can't cyst to its rt.
- I walked inside of the fusor, and fell down into a place I couldn't figure how to get out of as a marine.
Some good questions here, some I don't have answers to currently
The skybox design and lack of geometry around the playable areas gives the map a floating feeling right now, as if it's far above the flat terrain below. Eventually hopefully it'll appear to be built on the plains.
The crevasse section is being renamed 'Fissure'. It's basically a shaft filled with ventilation, power and other industrial equipment, and branches off Mohole deep underground, and where you see it in the map is where it arrives at the surface, it's not intended as a mountainous area, but again this isn't helped by the geometry right now, and so it gives the wrong impression.
The intention with the sky sections is to give the impression this is a facility with open areas throughout, something like Courtyard in docking, though not as vertically built up. I might be removing some outdoor areas and replacing them with more interesting indoor sections, but I'll see how the map plays in SCC testing first.
The blue/red theme was actually an accident, though I do seem to tend towards it.
The two tech points on the right side probably are connected too closely by Fissure. I have some ideas how to fix this, and integrate them into the center of the map more effectively.
Some of the areas with the level over level might be tricky, particularly Alley, which looks like a death trap to me right now. I might need to rework that, though I would like to have some interesting, cramped areas on occasion too, to break up the large outdoor spaces.
I was wondering if you professionals have a trick to check the viewdistance or arc range while working in the editor. Are you testing it out ingame or do you create some kind of messurement faces, like a ruler?
To check the arc range, I just make a circle with a radius of 1024. I suppose viewdistance could be handled the same way, I'm just not sure what the numbers are.
1720 units for draw distance.
This makes sense too for a planet that is being terraformed. The climate hasn't yet stabilized, so huge storms are common as giant masses of air with different temperatures collide. The mohole would attract these sorts of storms as a persistent source of air that is warmer than the surrounding climate. I would expect it to have violent storms around it continuously. You would expect it to be the eye of the storm though, which would give you a good excuse for not overdoing the rain in that part of the map.
This would really heighten the feeling of abandonment and isolation, similar to the effect that the storm outside had in Aliens.
If they go too far... ZAAAAPPP. Would require some custom scripting... but I REALLY REALLY like this idea!
I want to frame some of this stuff no joke.
I can't wait to see how it shapes up.
The picture is the view from Fissure to Middle route, right after the RT pops. I could've gone back even further.
Changelog:
Changed doors in middle route, they now provide more cover.
Removed middle route->mohole connection.
Reworked Crevasse, more cover, longer route into Middle Route from APC lift.
Added 5 vents.
Oh? 20v20 on Wooza's then!
.....I win.
If it's viable, not sure what the performance implications will be to do it properly.
I feel ya man. Two whole days without a post from Olmy... I was getting really worried.
Loulebe (as spectator): http://www.twitch.tv/loulebe/b/529099616
Mister Oizo (as player), take a look later on the video, we tested Mineral first: http://www.twitch.tv/mister_oizo/b/529082353
Cr4zy (as player too), same thing, Mineral tested first: http://www.twitch.tv/cr4zyb4st4rd/b/529081209
I hope some feedbacks will come later!
Personally, this is an interesting map, one Aliens win & one Marines win, but maybe teams were unbalanced. Because of the lack of textures, in general, it is a map in favor of Aliens, for sure. The layout itself seems legit but pretty original, some people compared it to the current Kodiak on the whole. There are some positions you can be stuck, not very important actually at the moment. Another point, maybe a lack of knowledge from me, I guess, but so many times I moved to an invisible glass with Alien vision, or even in Marines, it's a little like Biodome (you know that xD). In fact, you can see the glass itself from right side for example, but cannot in the left side, I mean, if you clearly see the glass in a side, you cannot see it in the other one.
RTs are easily protectable for Marines currently. Some of them are so far that's right but in general, pretty easy to recap, bite res isn't too hard for Aliens if they play intelligently. In fact, 1st round, Aliens used Shade Veil, that's so smart (ok they lost) & could be useful on this map, so many places to be hidden, even if there's no elements at the moment. I like the aesthetic of the map by the way, in this big huge hole as you'll see if you test the map yourself. Every places could have their personality in my opinion, this map has a real potential, for sure.
Of course, we saw some bugs, that could be easily solved, I hope so. For example, cysts: "Some problem with cyst, can't cyst the left side that blocks in stair in Pad Access." from Loulebe. + "When Marines spawn in north, the Marine com (when he logged out) can't defend the main RT, or Infantry Portal..., or Node. And some issue with drifter when it's moving... It can suddenly stop to move alone & as com we need to move it yourself again."
Loving the map so far!
The flow feels really nice, I think that the map is confusing a few people at the moment where places like mid -> garage have a closed off door although it almost appears connected on the map. Maybe widening them so the gap is a bit more obvious. Or if you can hide it on the map, I don't know what the best option is in spark
Just gonna list the few things I pointed out so it's written down somewhere.
1) Ventilation -> East Gate; the LOS is toooooo much for marines, as is shooting the hive from the end of Vent, it's also longer than the engine draw-distance for entities currently.
2) Administration; Horrible for marines now, the lack of LOS for the commander to his IP is a big problem that you saw get exploited both games after I mentioned it. LOS to the RT isn't as important, the commander should probably have to go a little out of the chair to save the RT. He should be able to also position to get LOS to the power node. It will also hurt aliens if that RT is connected by a cyst chain.
3) Tech Point hive infestation hitting other room power nodes. Mentioned this quickly but dropped some hives to see where it's an issue.
Ventilation Monitoring Hive infestation hits Fusors power node
Vehicle Access Hive infestation hits Consignment power node
Comms Tower Hive infestation hits Alley power node
All of these positions are probably places marines will arc some of these hives from (depending on spawn sides) If the power node is taken to 50% and left with no armor from infestation of the hive you cant do anything about it's a big annoyance and makes it incredibly easy for aliens to use to their advantage. I mean it shouldnt infest the node if it doesnt infest the floor, but apparently the engine ignores the bit where it's another room!
4) Lack of tunnel positions; Shipping is a wonderful tunnel point, the recessed floor and the tight room mean marines have to push in to attack it and that makes it easy to defend with PvE alone, or really nice for skulks. Having other rooms with some crates/ recessed sections that allow a tunnel to be placed with more security would be wonderful and give aliens more options on the map. It doesn't have to completely surround it, it could easily be like Organ Donation is in Jambi, crates on one side that cover the RT/tunnel position from pressuring marines. But it creates a tight choke for marines to pass past if they want to pressure the tunnel. This means they have to pass potential PvE and at the same time have a bad position if marines come from the Pipe hive.
5) General corridor/room LOS. There is a excessive amount of LOS as is, I understand you're grey boxing and every grey box map is marine favored due to the ease of skulk spotting and long clean corridors. There just isn't enough nooks and crannies for skulks to hide in/move behind so they can position themselves well. Im sure it's something that will certainly come with detailing and as such bring the team balance closer but for now just splitting some walls up throwing support beams in or crates down corridors to aid skulks in testing.
I would like to see one side from administration be a bit more "alien" friendly. If the game gets into late game and an onos pushes the base. He's got to make the best choice out of a bad selection, all 3 routes from the base are wide and open, with 5 marines just beaconed and cat-packed I think the onos is going to die every time. The other start location has some nice tight corners leading away fro the bases especially from the power node through fusors. Which actually might be too easy for aliens to attack with bile/skulks before late game even happens!
6) GLASS! lol, id love if you could make it a bit more opaque for testing at least so people don't run/blink/fly/jetpack into it ^^
7) The cysting problems, I did not command so im not sure on where exactly those positions are. But I hope you can resolve them without removing the z-axis areas which is something most NS2 maps seriously lack and I love how you've implemented them.
Would love to play it again with some of those changes in and see how it fares again!
Cr4zyb4st4rd:
1) I'll be reworking this area to remove that long LOS down into east gate.
2) I've moved the IP down to the commander chair area, and I've added a small break in the window in front of the CC. If the commander turns around and stands on the conveniently provided crates, he can shoot skulks off the power node.
3) Will try to fix this, it's a bit of an annoyance as there's absolutely no infestation around when it happens.
4) I'm reducing the entrances into the Middle Route RT room to 2, so the upper platform no longer has an entrance - hopefully that'll be more tunnel friendly. Also I'll be adding a couple more choke points around the middle of the map.
5) Working on these issues. I've added half closed doors in Administration->Depot so that LOS into administration is cut in half, and I'll add some recesses in corridors (but it would help to know what the worst spots are). I'm not sure of the best way to make Administration more alien friendly, but I'm interested to hear suggestions.
6) I'll probably add decals to the glass to make it more obvious.
7) This may need a compromise, it may be that the nav mesh can not cross over itself, and that's why cyst placement / drifter path finding is getting screwed up. Worst case, I think some of the sections will need to have nav mesh removed on either the top or bottom route. So for example, drifters/cysts might not be able to go over the bridge in courtyard, and will have to use the alternative entrance into Fusor.
The nav mesh should be fine crossing over itself. The old version of hotdogs had a spot that did this, and it worked just fine.
3) It's just how the engine behaves i believe, it happens on at least one power-node in descent from hydro hive. Not sure it's avoidable without repositioning your nodes.
5) Here's a very quick overview of lines on your mini-map for what i feel are the most problematic areas right now. These are however mostly down to grey-boxing with nothing for skulks to cover behind.
The problems around crevasse/fissure can easily be fixed by doing something similar to crevice in summit. Railings with large support sections.
Vehicle Access is an awesome looking room, but skulks have very little space to hide on the RT, or aliens have very little to help cover PvE if they take the RT due to it being so open. Maybe add a crate or two to the crevasse/fissue side, that means if aliens spawn Administration they have some cover for their defensive PvE, but if aliens are Ventilation they have less cover from the marine pressure side. Maybe nice floor vent, similar to the stuff in summit again, the Flight -> Comp Lab corridor a quick vent that doesn't do anything other than provide a nice cover spot/ambush location.
Administration, I mentioned before how the routes from this hive make it a bad bet for an Onos, the LOS towards Launch is nasty for every lifeform though.
I think Fuel lines has some pipes in, it would be nice if aliens could get over the top of them, I think I tried but couldn't.
Those are the more specific concerns, most of the others are just long sections that don't have enough recesses or hidey-holes for skulks. Maybe you could recess the centre of the main middle route like tram has for the tram path, that tiny height difference means placing even small objects gives skulks some minimal cover. It doesn't have to have every room completely full of clutter. Hub in Tram does it really well with being a strong marine room but lots of spots to ambush in the ceiling or behind crates at the entrances.
I was also watching my twitch back and spotted my issues with Garage, id love if skulks could move around this platform on the Access side. If you watch it you'll see me run around the area fighting a marine thinking I can get through it somehow and dying because I have no idea where to go
LOS blocking in administration:
Closed off platform in middle route: