Aliens 2 Hives, Marines 2 Hives. Advantage Marines
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Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11618Members
Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11618Members
Aliens have a disadvantage compared to marines with concern to controlling 2 hives.
Lets say aliens control two hives. That means fades, Def/Mov(sensory unlikely) Upgrades, now a crucial factor is what stage in the game this is achieved. Early game would result in fades Vs Non upgraded LMG marines or low upgraded LMG, which should mean an easy win for aliens.
If its mid to endgame then its totally different as marines still stand a good chance of turning it around. Upgrades making fades easier to kill and perform a siege or jp rush etc on one of thier hives, the chance of this is magnified the more tech the marines have. Now that people are getting better/smarter I see alot of games turned around to marine win from aliens having two hives.
Marines can still turn a game around if aliens have 2 hives from mid to engame
Now lets look at marines controlling two hives. This instantly reduces aliens to base level tech, they cannot upgrade any further from what one hive provides. At early stage this can still be turned around but only in a small window of oppurtunity, if the aliens cannot stop the marines from getting a phase,tf and 2 sentrys at each hive then it is extremely difficult to retake a hive and go on to win the game. The marines will continue to fortify each hive and if the marines are smart they will have at least a few marines ready to jump through the phase to defend/repair. If a hive is not retaken in this short period then it is pretty much end game for aliens, as each hive will be fortified to the moon and they can do nothing about it.
Now look at mid to end game. Marines controlling two hives with upgraded weapons/armor and HMG etc there is litterally no chance of aliens retaking a hive and winning the game.
Aliens have little chance of turning a game around if marines have 2 hives from mid to end game
Aliens need some sort of boost to be able to retake a second hive from marines, some suggestions for this could be increasing lerks spine damage to buildings or something. Alot of pub games consist of marines taking two hives, aliens runing around for 40 minutes getting beaten down while the marines mess about taking forever to fortify the 2 hives and even longer to make an assault on the 3rd. Same can be said for some clan games, aliens need to mid to end game chance to retake a hive and turn a game around.
Lets say aliens control two hives. That means fades, Def/Mov(sensory unlikely) Upgrades, now a crucial factor is what stage in the game this is achieved. Early game would result in fades Vs Non upgraded LMG marines or low upgraded LMG, which should mean an easy win for aliens.
If its mid to endgame then its totally different as marines still stand a good chance of turning it around. Upgrades making fades easier to kill and perform a siege or jp rush etc on one of thier hives, the chance of this is magnified the more tech the marines have. Now that people are getting better/smarter I see alot of games turned around to marine win from aliens having two hives.
Marines can still turn a game around if aliens have 2 hives from mid to engame
Now lets look at marines controlling two hives. This instantly reduces aliens to base level tech, they cannot upgrade any further from what one hive provides. At early stage this can still be turned around but only in a small window of oppurtunity, if the aliens cannot stop the marines from getting a phase,tf and 2 sentrys at each hive then it is extremely difficult to retake a hive and go on to win the game. The marines will continue to fortify each hive and if the marines are smart they will have at least a few marines ready to jump through the phase to defend/repair. If a hive is not retaken in this short period then it is pretty much end game for aliens, as each hive will be fortified to the moon and they can do nothing about it.
Now look at mid to end game. Marines controlling two hives with upgraded weapons/armor and HMG etc there is litterally no chance of aliens retaking a hive and winning the game.
Aliens have little chance of turning a game around if marines have 2 hives from mid to end game
Aliens need some sort of boost to be able to retake a second hive from marines, some suggestions for this could be increasing lerks spine damage to buildings or something. Alot of pub games consist of marines taking two hives, aliens runing around for 40 minutes getting beaten down while the marines mess about taking forever to fortify the 2 hives and even longer to make an assault on the 3rd. Same can be said for some clan games, aliens need to mid to end game chance to retake a hive and turn a game around.
Comments
It also says lerks are going to be completely redone in 1.1, and this is just a temporary thing.
(Hopefully this will make the 1 hive game a bit more interesting than just skulks)
For aliens to have 2 hives, they only need to take 1 hive on top of their initial hive.
Marines have to take 2 hives, since they start off with none. If the marines can successfully take 2 hives and defend them, then they really deserve to win.
If aliens have 2 hives, and the marines just 1 hive, and still can't take the extra hive with fades and lerks, then really the aliens deserve to lose!
There is no marine advantage either way, although marines may have a better survival chance when the aliens have 2 hives, the aliens have the advantage in the start game with speed for getting to the hives before the marines.
Works out balanced to me, IMHO.
Its possible for a pub game to reach a situation where 1 team cannot do anything worthwhile at all, usually when aliens are confined to 1 hive and marines have obscene unbreakable turret farms at each hive. Even if the marines all go for a cup of tea there may be nothing the aliens can do at all. Truthfully, after losing 2 hives to the marines and being contained aliens should not win the game - the game should finish.
The problem is, what happens when it doesn't finish? NS has no real timelimit, and roundtime on most servers is set to 60 minutes. A marine team with this sort of map control can mince about for the entire 60 minute period, with a commander who just HAS to research every possible weapon and upgrade in the game and take every res point. While the alien team really have nothing to do but run into turrets and die. This can make for some absolutely horrible pub games that last untill everyone gets bored and abandons the server, i've been in games like this....
I'm not trying to argue that aliens should have a way of fighting equally with marines after being contained to 1 hive. If marines take control of 2 hives they should have an overwhelming advantage that allows them to quickly wrap up the game.... just there has to be some sort of pressure for them to do so. Something the aliens can do that will give them a purpose in this situation, and encourage the marines to wrap up the game when they can, instead of sitting on their backside and teching to lv 3 upgrades, HA, HMGs GLs and motion tracking just to take on skulks.
These are my hopes for the siege self-damage change, lets hope it fills this role instead of being a meaningless addition. If this is still a problem, how about a vote-surrender on pubs that only requires a 50% majority? Or an alien super weapon that costs 3000 res? ;)
We rushed the marine main base and killed the CC. Then the backup CC.
Then we took out the HA's and everyone with upgraded weapons (took us a long time). The turret farms as you put it where burnt to the ground and we got our second hive up.
Then the server admin jumped in (apperantly, the marines started whining over RCON) and said aliens won to restart the round. I wish we could have finished it.
This is just one point showing that turnarounds (although unlikely, as you said) are possible. In fact, I think things are fine right now. Spikes upped? Ok, np, things that get upped are always good (except rp prices).
first take out the damn phase gate, then any marines left (if you can easily take out any siege with a lerk, do that too).
Now this leaves you with the turret farm and most if not all of your alien team is dead. The marines are now running (or walking if they are HA and/or HMGed) to take "their" hive back. Now you might think you have to rush back to the hive as soon as you spawn to take out that factory, but no you need teamwork on this one. With the shortened alien respawn time you might have a little easier time gathering your team up for phase 2. Instead of going into the hive and taking the TF, wait outside the hive for the marine team. For example if you are trying to take back subspace, wait in mother interface in the ceiling and corners. The marines may have motion tracking but if you get there early enough you can stay still before they get there and they can't see you. Hopefully in the meantime you have a gorge building in the hive. Now when the marines come into mother interface wait for them to pass or notice you and all attack at the same time. Since they are upgraded heavily you may not win the fight but atleast you will slow them down/weaken them. By the time they actually get into the hive, your trusty gorge will have built a nice wall of lame that can both attack the turret farm and hold off marines until you bring back 1 or 2 more waves of attacks.
This is pretty complicated and requires all that 1 hive can offer plus tons of teamwork. I think the only time aliens require more teamwork than marines is when they are locked to 1 hive. And oh ya, this definately won't work all the time, but what will when you only have 1 hive vs HA/HMG?
Yes, I've been in games like this too. From the Marine side, it's fun to have all the upgrades and cruise around in groups of 3-4 just having a good time.
The solution is already in place and I've seen it used lots of times. You just need to convince 4 of your teammates that it's hopeless and to hit F4. As soon as the aliens get 5 down, the server will restart the map.
-grem
I took some coordination on the alien side and some stupidity from the marines.
The marines had taken noname and subspace and fortified them quite well but they didnt secure their own base.
So while most of the alien team attacked subspace 3 aliens attacked marine base and took out the ip:s.
Instead of getting back fast to marine spawn and save the base the marines stood, fought and died at subspace.
Just proof that it goes better for the aliens if they have some teamwork.
But thats lame.
And to the guy that said "omg just teamwork yuo n00bs"(or similar), I was on a server, where all the newb one-man-rushers had left, and almost everyone worked as a team. The marines had moved base to Computer Core(ns_eclipse), and had the usual "outpost" stuff in maintenance hive. We worked as a team, but they still slaughtered us. Once we actually managed to clear out maintenance, and got the hive in building, but... in keyhole, they were building 7 sieges(NOT exaggerated, we asked them...). Im sure you can figure that; boom. Boom. BOOM. BOOM!
And hive is gone, with us realising we didnt stand a snowflakes chance in hell. Eventually everyone F4:ed or left, marines refused to attack our remaining hive that had no defenses except us skulks and lerks(abundance of resources).
It is doable because assuming the marines have not re-located, they have to defend 3 sites simultaneously (marine base, hive 1, hive 2) whilst the aliens only have to defend one (their first hive).
If in the 10-20 minutes it takes for both hives to become turreted to high heaven, with sieges, and have the marines stomping around in HA, the alien team can't organise a skulk/chamber rush, they deserve to lose.
I've been tearing my hair out as skulks all other the mapp attacking little outposts and the hives and marine base in dribs and drabs, achieveing naff all.
On the other hand, i've seen 6 skulks, a gorge and a lerk arrange to meet up in the vent in Sat Comms on Nothing and watch/participate in them dismantling the 'secured' marine hive in less time then it takes a marine to say "WTF ?" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> We went on to win <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As usual, its an issue of teamwork more then the game. A single marine in the right place can take down a secured alien hive by building a TF, Ts and sieges without being noticed, whilst the aliens usually require teamwork to take down a secured marine hive.
Hence, an alien team taking a hive back appears to be more 'difficult' <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
You would all die before you could take the tf down, the turrets themselves would make short work of you and the marines the commander would instantly send there would also send you packing and repair any damage you did.
You must play with very low skilled players or commanders that place turrets in stupid places, if you play decent marine teams then it quickly becomes obvious how extremely difficult is it to recover when marines control 2 hives, like i said its not impossible and for a short period before theres to many sentrys or marine upgrades aliens can quite often retake a hive, but mid game its get VERY hard and endgame almost not a chance.
Of course you have to do this early. As soon as you see the 2 hive lockdown in progress you need to rally the skulks and go, if you wait until the commander puts up fifty turrets at each hive and upgrades thier ammo sure you're done for.
That's exactly why you should target the Phase Gate first. 1.04 helps this a lot - Phase Gates have about half the health they did in 1.03 .
If they know what they're doing, its easily possible.
5 skulks rushing from different directions in a vague attempt to bite stuff ? No chance.
5 skulks knowing there going wait whilst theres no marines in the hive, know to take out that turret on the left to open up the blind spot on a TF, before munching on the PG ? Yes. Add a chamber rush by a gorge and your laughing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->like i said its not impossible and for a short period before theres to many sentrys <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to think 4-5 turrets is too many. Too many is 8-10 with sieges IMHO. Without sieges chamber rush is always a possibilty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->owa thats what I said, doesnt anyone read properly?. Early on its still quite doable but later its very very hard <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading posts properly isn't a requirement to join the forums unfortunately <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Edit: Forgot to add some advice. Chamber rush is usually the last tactic employed to try and take a hive back. It results in the marines trying to hold off the aliens whilst they can get sieges up. Whilst the TF has been upgraded by the comm but the marines have not 'manually' upgraded it, all the turrets go down. That is the time <b>every</b> skulk should be in that hive to take advantage. It'll also generally be your last chance. Below is a paraphrased true story.
Me: "Everyone get to maintenance, they're upgrading the TF and the turrets are down!"
nOOb: "The TF is destroyed ?"
Me: "No! Its being upgraded and the turrets go off-line!"
Another nOOb: "The turrets are destroyed?"
Me: "No! They stop working whilst the TF is being upgraded!"
nOOb: "It does that ?
Me: "YES! FFS get here now......oh never mind they're back up. Excuse me a moment" Bangs head against wall <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The problem is that most commanders realize the importance of that area, and they throw up a mass of sentries around it - meaning you're going to get about 3 bites in at the most before you die. As soon as the commander gets the message that something is going on, he sends a bunch of marines through. Most of them guard, while one welds the PG back to full health. So your net result is a lot of wasted time, and some highly alert marines. Hell, most of the time they add a few more turrets too
I have seen many threads to this effect - "when one team is losing, it should get a boost to enable it to come back against the other team." That's like saying if you are losing a chess game, you should be given an extra rook to help you come back. If the marines have captured 2 hives, that means since the game started, the marines got 2 hives and the aliens got none. The score is 2 - 0 people, and that means you are losing! You don't get a reward for that. The game should strive for balance at the aliens with 2 hives/ marines with 1 hive level.
That was the game developers originally intended balance point, after that it depends on the more aggressive team, although with 2 hives I feel the Kharaa have an overwhelming advantage.
But, I understand what everyones been trying to say in this thread, that is when the marines have fully locked-down 2 hives theres almost no point in playing as Kharaa since theres no possible upgrade or evolution to help you get those hives back. Unlike the Marines, who when losing, can save up resources instead to tech-up to a fighting chance.
It does get depressing when you are in a lose lose situation, but it just makes you more determined in the next game to get the second hive.
Strategies exist for taking back the hive. If the team can't implement them then they lose.
Human error is the biggest factor going for the both the marines and the aliens. A misplaced turret factory, a bad turret configuration, a commander not noticeing an attack against a hive, a bunch of marines telefragging themselves rushing to defend a hive, forgetting to scout around your hive for marines building siege bases...and so many more possible errors. My pet hate is teams giving up. The comebacks I have witnessed as both aliens and marines from this situation have been many and varied. To say that its all over is just defeatist. People make errors, its up to the teams to capitalise on them.
The biggest error I see alien teams make is to concentrate their attacks on the one hive the marines capture at the start and/or the marine base. Invariably half the team gets killed and some marine slips in next to a vacant/alien controlled hive and gets a phase gate up. If the aliens just concentrate on controlling and securing the areas they have (ie the original hive and the next potential hive) , rather than attempting to take what the marines have, then the chances of getting into this type of situation are greatly reduced.
In the end, someone has to lose. Its the team the makes the LEAST mistakes.