Firstly, the compmod is, as the name suggests, a) a mod and b) from and for the competitive community.
I just want to chime in and say that I sincerely disagree with this, since this reasoning has been used more than a few times as a supporting argument. I don't believe it holds much water. There are very few changes in compmod that are geared specifically toward competitive players... the vast majority of the changes are aimed at gameplay and mechanics improvement that are universal to all skill levels.
Maybe posting lists of upcoming changes for each build on the UWE and ENSL forums could help communication and feedback.
Trello might not be the better place to discuss stuff with both the main and comp communities
There are some things in the open letter with which I strongly agree, however. In particular, the contentious changes (like lerk bomber sounds) really needed open consultation with the community before being implemented.
But this isn't in vanilla, this is a compmod change...
No this is not. This was in the Trello.
It's not in the public build, and it is on trello, so it is public and therefore you have a chance to provide feedback before it goes in. By the way, the implementation was quite different from the compmod one, just because it sounded similar doesn't mean that it was going to be a copy & paste.
Also, if you read the Trello you'll see it has been pulled.
It has been pulled as a consequence to the googledoc. The lerk sound received a bad feedback from players, they kept it in the compmod and few days latter wanted to add it to vanilla NS2. This is an exemple but this summarize the problem of the recognition of feedback
Firstly, the compmod is, as the name suggests, a) a mod and b) from and for the competitive community.
I just want to chime in and say that I sincerely disagree with this, since this reasoning has been used more than a few times as a supporting argument. I don't believe it holds much water. There are very few changes in compmod that are geared specifically toward competitive players... the vast majority of the changes are aimed at gameplay and mechanics improvement that are universal to all skill levels.
Since the compmod is almost exclusively used in competitive play and also seems to get it's main feedback from there, my point still stands in context.
Which is sortof irrelevant, since it was based on a misunderstanding, but I still wanted to note this.
Comp mod seeks to solve problems that exist in public games as well. The balance is not 50/50 for public and I think it was wise to at least consider some of the well thought out changes that were implemented in comp mod.
I think you're doing great work... AND i REALLY hope the Shadow Tier Skins DO NOT come for 3 bucks when you release the skin systen like the new Menu Layout suggests. I've payed 75 bucks on em and would be PISSED.. But these are placeholders cuz no other pics where done at that moment, I'm sure ^^
I think you're doing great work... AND i REALLY hope the Shadow Tier Skins DO NOT come for 3 bucks when you release the skin systen like the new Menu Layout suggests. I've payed 75 bucks on em and would be PISSED.. But these are placeholders cuz no other pics where done at that moment, I'm sure ^^
Please note, as per the title this is a mockup of a design I did based off a number of more recent games similar to our genre. It is NOT FINAL and ANYTHING in it is placeholder or subject to change.
I think you're doing great work... AND i REALLY hope the Shadow Tier Skins DO NOT come for 3 bucks when you release the skin systen like the new Menu Layout suggests. I've payed 75 bucks on em and would be PISSED.. But these are placeholders cuz no other pics where done at that moment, I'm sure ^^
Please note, as per the title this is a mockup of a design I did based off a number of more recent games similar to our genre. It is NOT FINAL and ANYTHING in it is placeholder or subject to change.
Perhaps but it's still more pleasant visually.
I'm not so sure about the Steam friends that show up at the right side of the screen. Is it really useful? "maybe not having the friends list there, or shrinking it down to only people playing ns2" = fully agreed. However, I really appreciate the point to get the main page of NS2 forums and official Twitters. Maybe it could make more sense to also point out the Trello board? I've just noticed there are parts called "patch notes", "blog" somewhere so dunno (Trello can be added here?). By the way, what do the pictures next to the NS2 Store represent? Available skins to purchase?
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited September 2014
The staggering amount of misinformation and ignorance floating around on the servers after the 268 balance patch was jaw dropping. I heard much of "why did they implement comp mod!?" and "this doesn't make any sense!" on every server (they read the brief mention of comp mod in the changelog post and lost it). A small and very vocal minority simply do not like change in their game and are frightened and confused by any sort of change, especially when its perceived as being implemented arbitrarily.
Everybody loves performance enhancements and general under the hood improvements, but the balance changes are always controversial and will receive the most criticism from the less informed NS2 player. Many of the most experienced players and veterans of the game are excited because the changes are usually needed.
The best you can do to satisfy those who haven't spent as much time with the game, or die hards who are nostalgic for the older builds, is to communicate the rationale going into balance changes. Give the guy who only plays NS2 every patch release (then comes to the forums to complain) a place to see the rationale for certain changes. For many of the 268 balance changes, this could probably be pulled from the compmod document:
Obviously it would be culled into its own document (or separate forum post) to only include the information pertinent to the actual changes. This may help with educating those who are confused by a large balance patch suddenly updating their NS2. Even a brief explanation of each change (1 sentence or less) would be sufficient. This is especially needed for the items on the list that are receiving a major rework.
For the record, I LOVE the changes being made to the game, and think you guys are talented developers.
A response to your letter from the Playground folks:
Dear WasabiOne, dear CDT,
thank you for your letter. It mirrors our mindset.
The CDT and the NS2 community are one and the same. We ride together.
NS2 is very much alive. Compared to NS1, which had it's development ceased and locked by UWE, we now have the incredible opportunity where the development is carried out by the community. For those who witnessed NS1's slow crawl of death and bugs that would never be fixed, it's a dream come true!
If there's one good thing about the comparatively low NS2 population, it is that everyone is starting to get closer together.
Our server is unexpectedly suffering from a change in build 267. Shoving the first disappointment aside, we immediately got together with you and started working on a solution. There's not a single soul who's throwing a range of cutlery at you.
It's a difficult task, but will likely have everyone benefit with an improved server performance one day.
Tonight, our folks got together to show a message of support with a group picture. Enjoy.
We would like to be able to consult a list of who actually is a member of the CDT and why, what is the role of everyone in the development of new NS2 builds. But what about the others? What do they do? why are they in? Who decided that?
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/135573/community-development-team
There's a process of picking people up. They need to pass the same tests/standards that a playtester would, then we need proof that they know what they're doing. It's a case-by-case basis. Everyone is listed on there with the basics of what they do, but many people will overlap and fill holes anywhere they can. If you have questions about who is on the CDT and why, you can always PM Obraxis or WasabiOne.
The CDT is behaving almost like a real game developer, which we hate. We want them to open their Kimono and show us all their naked bits. As a “community” development team, let us know what we should expect for the future of NS2!
An example is the lerk glide sounds. This is a VERY recent change in compmod, and still VERY controversial. There is a huge outcry still about this change, yet it’s ALREADY been put into vanilla?
That wasn't put into vanilla. It was briefly put into the internal beta, but there was enough feedback from the team that was unsure of the changes that it was pulled to be re-examined and discussed further. It was never in Vanilla. Ever.
Why not make the game free to play now (that could mean adding more extra content like skins, armor types, etc beyond what already exists thanks to the Reinforced Program)? This is definitely a possibility that should be weighed fully by both the community and UWE itself. It would certainly do something regarding of the overall player numbers. It would also be a good idea to advertise the increases in game performance in an effort to pull older players back into the game..
I don't think free to play was ever off the table. However, you underestimate how much work it would be. Before we could even consider it, we need a good, mandatory tutorial. It would help a lot with rookies in general, free to play or not. There's a lot of work surrounding that & how to keep the newer players coming back and interested. As the entire team is made up of volunteers, everyone has jobs and lives outside of this. It isn't something that can just be pulled out of a hat.
5. Maptesting !
- What happened to it? UWE used to do this regularly to help get feedback to the most giving part of our community! What is the CDT’s plan for UWE maptesting? NSL Maptesting is not enough, as that’s for the competitive community, and still very limited. Does the CDT plan to revive maptesting the way it used to exist under UWE? Are we going to continue to support those who try to bring more content?
I think I've had this discussion roughly 17 times. When NSL Maptesting started, we had not made it UWE official for a number of reasons. The main reason was that we didn't have anyone from UWE/CDT/etc to lead it. In order to make it UWE official, we have to go through the same process we do of picking up PTs and checking everyone, then getting NDAs signed. As the person who was in charge wasn't involved with UWE/CDT, it essentially fell into my lap to do the work behind that. With school & work, I just didn't have the time to commit to it on top of what I already do for playtest. I had told the team that while they were only NSL maptesting, if it went well and they proved that they could do it, I would commit the time to make the group official. However, the maptesting group folded before it got to that point.
Heh, i didn't want to sign up for the document the day i saw it cause the first few drafts we're quite... let's just say a phrase "french whine" came to mind. But no matter how these guys are able to write and form their thoughts, in english i might add, should their thoughts and opinions be neglected, as should no ones. And i hope those who saw the "hostility" in the letter see that aspect as well.
I'm actually suprised so many had signed up for it, as so many i agree on some points, or thoughts you might say and ask for transparency, i'm not as drastic as some and blaming CDT for anything, as i value their effort in releasing patches much more than i value UWE for making the game.
But yeah, i still find it a major douche move to make this post before the frenchies we're able to make their post public, tsk tsk.
So in short, arguments from one side were denied by arguments of the other side (if there are sides to this) = status quo.
This whole thing was useless after all, who knew ? (maybe a lot of people)
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Many who signed may not agree on all points, (like me). But the points left were important enough to sign for it.
But I think the focus is to much on HOW it was delivered instead of THAT it was delivered. Ive heared people say it was passive aggressive written, and I had to reread 3 times to slightly grasp why anyone would think that. Also as the original idea was to make a forum post, and that did not happen, I can safely say it wasnt 'done' yet so far i know.
So instead of focussing on the 'how' which can be misinterpret how it was ment, lets focus on that its there.
So far I know, the document showed that we do appreciate the work the CDT puts in. I for one see its value. The team has done much which is good. I just hope to see some real improvements on the stuff which ISN'T good.
I think with "passive agressive" was meant, that instead of giving usable and direct feedback on the things that need improvement, some kind of universal and vague critizism was given.
It is easy to say you disagree with something, and it is harder to actually give usable and constructive feedback and make some suggestions.
I think with "passive agressive" was meant, that instead of giving usable and direct feedback on the things that need improvement, some kind of universal and vague critizism was given.
It is easy to say you disagree with something, and it is harder to actually give usable and constructive feedback and make some suggestions.
Without taking a side, I'd like to say that the original post by wasabi wasn't exactly "concrete", either.
I still have trouble to understand the message of the OP despite all the awesome votes. What is the meaning of it? We are all pulling together on the same rope or are we bystanders that are allowed to cheer the CDT on but there is no real way to start a discussion or add to the Trello board?
Something doesn't fit. "You are as much a part of this team as the next and we value your input. Please feel free to contact myself or other members of the team anytime". But at the same time there is no section of the forum dedicated to the communication between the CDT and the rest of the team - us. Yes, we can start a discussion here and the CDT might add something based on that to Trello or not. It just feels like everything you guys do is behind closed doors. That might be the biggest issue here. You want to work efficient. I can understand how an open discussion about every change is a no-go if you want to ever finish a new build. But that means that we are not a big part of what ns2 will become. This means further that many people will/must have the feeling that things are forced on them. Maybe I describe a too negative viewpoint of this all. So, how does the CDT work? What happens if we send you a PM?
I asked for example about Lerk spores and what the CDT is thinking about them. As they seem not to be used as the old Exo was. I still have no answer. Should I send a PM? Will you answer me then? Shall I send a PM to every CDT-Member? Do you even have time to answer all messages? You see my problem here? If the thoughtprocess and the communication is not public, there comes again the picture of the closed doors to my mind. We are part of the team. We are part of the team if you read stuff in the forum maybe, but I don't really feel that I am part of anything here. It feels more like you do something and we have the right to click "awesome". That is as much as we can do and maybe as much as we have the right to do and Beige is totally right. But then say it loud and clear!
It would be easier to understand what role we have if you wouldn't hide behind phrases like "your awesome community, love you". That is nice to hear, but meaningless if there are no real informations behind it. I was not informed about an open letter (and I wouldn't ask for example about who is in the CDT, because I know some of them from the mapping and modding scene), but I can understand the call for transparency. Maybe @Hugh can do an awesome Q&A-video about the work of the CDT. How are they working, how can you be part of it - themed + some advertisement for UWE and their community near philosophy or something :P It is an interesting approach and I think news-sides would be interested as well how this project works (out).
You want to work efficient. I can understand how an open discussion about every change is a no-go if you want to ever finish a new build.
You also mention all our avenues we use to discuss everything we're working on: Twitter, Trello, Forums. We also host a semi-regilar live stream where we do Questions and Answers. But then say
I don't really feel that I am part of anything here
We post more often on the forums, and provide more tech support individually & show what we're working on through these avenues more so than at any time in NS2's history of development. These are things we're very passionate about and you can see it continuing and expanding.
However, we cannot develop NS2 if we, as a small team with limited free time, spend all our time debating about NS2 with everyone who has an opinon. We would NEVER get anything done, and NS2 development would consist of nothing but opinions being endlessly debated. Having a small team of people working on NS2 allows us to interact, and skim off the best ideas, then concentrate what little free time we have into some great work and patches. We have an internal chat room for our team using Slack. If this were opened up to the public, we honestly would never be able to answer all questions and debates would be endless. Being a global team with limited resources, we have to be efficient, or things simply would not get done. UWE have not open sourced NS2, they have entrusted their valuable IP to the CDT Team, which works on behalf of the community, by community members.
So let me be clear. By actively engaging in the forums, twitter, trello you ARE being a part of development. We need feedback on all our work in order to make things better. Ideas born on the forums often make their way into patches. But we cannot simply open the whole team up to everyone who wants in, because as you already pointed out, focus would be lost and NS2 would suffer the consequences. If you want to join the CDT then please contact us, but every single member goes through a vetting process so that we know they are a team player and can handle the legal issues to do with UWE's intellectual property.
Please note, ANYONE can chat with us, PM us, tweet us (@NS2CDT), vote on Trello cards or post on the forums. You know we read them all, and we reply as often as time allows.
The CDT team is not hard to get ahold of. Someone from the CDT usually responds to every thread that is important here. I myself have had questions about the implementation or rationale behind different trello board items and have messaged various CDT members about them from which I received a quick response.
I can understand if everyone was messaging wasabi he might not respond quickly.
Firstly, the compmod is, as the name suggests, a) a mod and b) from and for the competitive community.
I just want to chime in and say that I sincerely disagree with this, since this reasoning has been used more than a few times as a supporting argument. I don't believe it holds much water. There are very few changes in compmod that are geared specifically toward competitive players... the vast majority of the changes are aimed at gameplay and mechanics improvement that are universal to all skill levels.
There are those who are against compmod changes being a part of vanilla simply because the game is not only for competitive players, and generally speaking, if it's in the comp mod, it's tailored for competitive players, and not necessarily for average/vanilla/casual players.
I am not saying I agree with the statement. I am identifying the argument that some who do not play compmod have. Honestly I think we should distinguish between "Compmod" and the "Balance mod" that is used in competitive. But because those changes are a part of the competitive servers and mods, and not in vanilla, those who don't play competitive want, care, or even pay attention to the changes. Therefore we shouldn't expect anything other than some of the backlash over the changes, whether or not they're valid arguments. It's just something to expect by the nature of how everything is structured.
We should call the mod something else to avoid ambiguity. The "thoughtful balance mod testing ground" or something.
I personally love most of the changes, just understand I play devil's advocate far too often.
There's a process of picking people up. [...] It's a case-by-case basis. Everyone is listed on there with the basics of what they do, but many people will overlap and fill holes anywhere they can.
... must... not... quote... out of context...
(scnr :P)
We now return to our family-friendly discussion of proper Alien vs Marine violence. Stay tuned!
bonageJoin Date: 2012-10-13Member: 162230Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
wow. really, this thread.
The sense of entitlement of people who plonk down $20, play the game, and expect to have their online anonymous opinions validated and taken onboard, despite their lack of any expertise or sound reason behind their comments is amazing. You would never ask this of any other product or in any other profession- ever.
You're all getting even more transparency/communication now that the CDT is in charge than you have ever had beforehand with UWE, and you guys still want more? Absurd.
Be grateful that these poor talented volunteers have even been given the opportunity to develop the game further. They have released a few patches, some with problems, but they are finding their feet. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Let them do their work, and actually trust that these people, who have been picked for a reason, actually know what they're doing.
@bonage, i guess it just makes more sense to stop playing the game all together and give no input to the people who are working on the game. Oh and, keep smiling of course.
as they often said, feedback and ideas e.g. from the forums are important to the CDT. but not getting your way as an outsider obviously has to be the standard. we can bring up various possible options but ultimately, they can only pick a few of those because they might contradict with the rest and/or require too much work. UWE trusts these people and they have proven their skills times over, they are also more involved than any of the rest. so what we should do is to continue to give feedback and ideas and trust them to know what's best for the game even if there are some changes we don't like. that's a small price to pay to see this game alive, going and improving.
First, my message did not only concern my own thoughts, but the opinion of many community members. I agreed to post it with my account, I played the role of an emissary, and I will do it again in the following message.
That being said, back to the original topic. Above all else, you need to understand that our goal was not to attack the CDT itself, which has done an excellent work so far. We all are total fans of NS2 and that is why this GoogleDoc was created. We did not do it to make a mess, but rather to gather and discuss about problems that needed to be solved. We did not intend to harm or threaten anybody, and we’re sorry if some felt that way. However, there was a reason why the content of this GoogleDoc was not posted, it is because it was not finished and there were a few more details to modify in order to make the whole conform to what we intended to say and avoid all the drama and incomprehension. We need to admit that your initiative to post a preventive reply to our topic forced us to write our own message right away, without time to finish it correctly.
A lot of players were told of our intention and thanks to them the content of the text improved, evolved, some parts were added, some other were deleted. With a few more days of brainstorming, it would’ve been more complete and could open to a real discussion. Our signature system probably wasn’t a good idea, you’ll realize that this is the reason that prevented us from posting the names or links to this document, but only the message while closing the comments on it.
Our action and your reaction, if we follow the comments on this topic, will probably only cause a weakening or division of our already small community, which clearly isn’t your goal nor ours. All the points in this document deserved to be cleared up publicly, and not via E-Mail or Steam when a demand is too strong. It would be a waste of time to answer the same thing to a hundred of players and an official and public reply can only be well-considered. As consequences of this message, changes have been made, answers have been given, like Decoy’s answer to us or the publication of the list of the CDT members.
The goal of this message is to keep the community as it was before, solid, strong and appreciated by the newcomers, not divide or weaken it. Nobody can agree with everyone, but this isn’t the reason why all these ideas are bad, inconceivable, and all those who stand for such ideas must be criticized. The ones who signed approved some points, perhaps one or two, maybe not the whole document, but they agreed enough to sign it. That is their decision, their choice. Nevertheless, their desire to ask for information or disagree with some decision do not affect their love for this great game and its community.
Remember that there is only one NS2, and this the reason why the current players are still present and stay for the game and its community. We do not intend to create more and more drama just for fun, but we have a real desire to improve the game and contribute to it.
One last thing, the recent changes in CompMod added to the vanilla game are only one of the points mentioned on this GoogleDoc but seem to be have taken excessive proportions on this topic, reaching the point where it creates more quarrels, while a simple and calm discussion can be more effective and enjoyable.
We point the problems, but don’t bring any solution. It is always easier to do so, but this doesn’t mean we do not think about any solution. For instance, speaking of transparency, it seems like the Trello is clearer now (or is this only me dreaming?) and some demands were taken in consideration. Thus said, even though you all are available through E-Mails and on forums, some changes that we evoked need their own threads to be opened on the forum to discuss them in-depths. Even if informations are available on the Trello, it will be easier to comment them on the forum instead of voting only. These can be opened by the community, but also by the CDT members if instant feedback is needed, like the eventual new NS2 menu. Such threads can be useful, for sure, but we don’t need some for minor changes and bug solving problems.
Another problem that troubles the community is the presence of PremDiv players among the CDT that take care of the balance. We won’t come back on a debate that leads to nowhere, but we think that one representant of each lower division should be consulted before major balance changes. This would help get the best changes possible and will please lower divisions players that can have some different opinion about balance (we all know the game plays differently in PremDiv and in Div4). This is only an idea, but such as this one, more could sprout.
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
edited September 2014
You don't have to create a 1000 word google doc with signatures for people to listen to your suggestions.
Also, the inherent nature of a petition with some kind of call to action is the result of a divide or a change in thinking within a group of people by the way. Just so you know.
One last thing, the recent changes in CompMod added to the vanilla game are only one of the points mentioned on this GoogleDoc but seem to be have taken excessive proportions on this topic, reaching the point where it creates more quarrels, while a simple and calm discussion can be more effective and enjoyable.
I hope the irony in this situation is not lost on you.
Comments
I just want to chime in and say that I sincerely disagree with this, since this reasoning has been used more than a few times as a supporting argument. I don't believe it holds much water. There are very few changes in compmod that are geared specifically toward competitive players... the vast majority of the changes are aimed at gameplay and mechanics improvement that are universal to all skill levels.
Trello might not be the better place to discuss stuff with both the main and comp communities
It has been pulled as a consequence to the googledoc. The lerk sound received a bad feedback from players, they kept it in the compmod and few days latter wanted to add it to vanilla NS2. This is an exemple but this summarize the problem of the recognition of feedback
Since the compmod is almost exclusively used in competitive play and also seems to get it's main feedback from there, my point still stands in context.
Which is sortof irrelevant, since it was based on a misunderstanding, but I still wanted to note this.
Please note, as per the title this is a mockup of a design I did based off a number of more recent games similar to our genre. It is NOT FINAL and ANYTHING in it is placeholder or subject to change.
Perhaps but it's still more pleasant visually.
I'm not so sure about the Steam friends that show up at the right side of the screen. Is it really useful? "maybe not having the friends list there, or shrinking it down to only people playing ns2" = fully agreed. However, I really appreciate the point to get the main page of NS2 forums and official Twitters. Maybe it could make more sense to also point out the Trello board? I've just noticed there are parts called "patch notes", "blog" somewhere so dunno (Trello can be added here?). By the way, what do the pictures next to the NS2 Store represent? Available skins to purchase?
Everybody loves performance enhancements and general under the hood improvements, but the balance changes are always controversial and will receive the most criticism from the less informed NS2 player. Many of the most experienced players and veterans of the game are excited because the changes are usually needed.
The best you can do to satisfy those who haven't spent as much time with the game, or die hards who are nostalgic for the older builds, is to communicate the rationale going into balance changes. Give the guy who only plays NS2 every patch release (then comes to the forums to complain) a place to see the rationale for certain changes. For many of the 268 balance changes, this could probably be pulled from the compmod document:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16niWkYVm7KfDgtwDyWQDQgkvMejr0VE-KxD7bNA95pk/edit
Obviously it would be culled into its own document (or separate forum post) to only include the information pertinent to the actual changes. This may help with educating those who are confused by a large balance patch suddenly updating their NS2. Even a brief explanation of each change (1 sentence or less) would be sufficient. This is especially needed for the items on the list that are receiving a major rework.
For the record, I LOVE the changes being made to the game, and think you guys are talented developers.
Dear WasabiOne, dear CDT,
thank you for your letter. It mirrors our mindset.
The CDT and the NS2 community are one and the same. We ride together.
NS2 is very much alive. Compared to NS1, which had it's development ceased and locked by UWE, we now have the incredible opportunity where the development is carried out by the community. For those who witnessed NS1's slow crawl of death and bugs that would never be fixed, it's a dream come true!
If there's one good thing about the comparatively low NS2 population, it is that everyone is starting to get closer together.
Our server is unexpectedly suffering from a change in build 267. Shoving the first disappointment aside, we immediately got together with you and started working on a solution. There's not a single soul who's throwing a range of cutlery at you.
It's a difficult task, but will likely have everyone benefit with an improved server performance one day.
Tonight, our folks got together to show a message of support with a group picture. Enjoy.
There's a process of picking people up. They need to pass the same tests/standards that a playtester would, then we need proof that they know what they're doing. It's a case-by-case basis. Everyone is listed on there with the basics of what they do, but many people will overlap and fill holes anywhere they can. If you have questions about who is on the CDT and why, you can always PM Obraxis or WasabiOne.
.....what. LOL.
That wasn't put into vanilla. It was briefly put into the internal beta, but there was enough feedback from the team that was unsure of the changes that it was pulled to be re-examined and discussed further. It was never in Vanilla. Ever.
I don't think free to play was ever off the table. However, you underestimate how much work it would be. Before we could even consider it, we need a good, mandatory tutorial. It would help a lot with rookies in general, free to play or not. There's a lot of work surrounding that & how to keep the newer players coming back and interested. As the entire team is made up of volunteers, everyone has jobs and lives outside of this. It isn't something that can just be pulled out of a hat.
I think I've had this discussion roughly 17 times. When NSL Maptesting started, we had not made it UWE official for a number of reasons. The main reason was that we didn't have anyone from UWE/CDT/etc to lead it. In order to make it UWE official, we have to go through the same process we do of picking up PTs and checking everyone, then getting NDAs signed. As the person who was in charge wasn't involved with UWE/CDT, it essentially fell into my lap to do the work behind that. With school & work, I just didn't have the time to commit to it on top of what I already do for playtest. I had told the team that while they were only NSL maptesting, if it went well and they proved that they could do it, I would commit the time to make the group official. However, the maptesting group folded before it got to that point.
i do SO want a long-lived, healthy game!
I'm actually suprised so many had signed up for it, as so many i agree on some points, or thoughts you might say and ask for transparency, i'm not as drastic as some and blaming CDT for anything, as i value their effort in releasing patches much more than i value UWE for making the game.
But yeah, i still find it a major douche move to make this post before the frenchies we're able to make their post public, tsk tsk.
This whole thing was useless after all, who knew ? (maybe a lot of people)
But I think the focus is to much on HOW it was delivered instead of THAT it was delivered. Ive heared people say it was passive aggressive written, and I had to reread 3 times to slightly grasp why anyone would think that. Also as the original idea was to make a forum post, and that did not happen, I can safely say it wasnt 'done' yet so far i know.
So instead of focussing on the 'how' which can be misinterpret how it was ment, lets focus on that its there.
So far I know, the document showed that we do appreciate the work the CDT puts in. I for one see its value. The team has done much which is good. I just hope to see some real improvements on the stuff which ISN'T good.
It is easy to say you disagree with something, and it is harder to actually give usable and constructive feedback and make some suggestions.
Without taking a side, I'd like to say that the original post by wasabi wasn't exactly "concrete", either.
Something doesn't fit. "You are as much a part of this team as the next and we value your input. Please feel free to contact myself or other members of the team anytime". But at the same time there is no section of the forum dedicated to the communication between the CDT and the rest of the team - us. Yes, we can start a discussion here and the CDT might add something based on that to Trello or not. It just feels like everything you guys do is behind closed doors. That might be the biggest issue here. You want to work efficient. I can understand how an open discussion about every change is a no-go if you want to ever finish a new build. But that means that we are not a big part of what ns2 will become. This means further that many people will/must have the feeling that things are forced on them. Maybe I describe a too negative viewpoint of this all. So, how does the CDT work? What happens if we send you a PM?
I asked for example about Lerk spores and what the CDT is thinking about them. As they seem not to be used as the old Exo was. I still have no answer. Should I send a PM? Will you answer me then? Shall I send a PM to every CDT-Member? Do you even have time to answer all messages? You see my problem here? If the thoughtprocess and the communication is not public, there comes again the picture of the closed doors to my mind. We are part of the team. We are part of the team if you read stuff in the forum maybe, but I don't really feel that I am part of anything here. It feels more like you do something and we have the right to click "awesome". That is as much as we can do and maybe as much as we have the right to do and Beige is totally right. But then say it loud and clear!
It would be easier to understand what role we have if you wouldn't hide behind phrases like "your awesome community, love you". That is nice to hear, but meaningless if there are no real informations behind it. I was not informed about an open letter (and I wouldn't ask for example about who is in the CDT, because I know some of them from the mapping and modding scene), but I can understand the call for transparency. Maybe @Hugh can do an awesome Q&A-video about the work of the CDT. How are they working, how can you be part of it - themed + some advertisement for UWE and their community near philosophy or something :P It is an interesting approach and I think news-sides would be interested as well how this project works (out).
You also mention all our avenues we use to discuss everything we're working on: Twitter, Trello, Forums. We also host a semi-regilar live stream where we do Questions and Answers. But then say
We post more often on the forums, and provide more tech support individually & show what we're working on through these avenues more so than at any time in NS2's history of development. These are things we're very passionate about and you can see it continuing and expanding.
However, we cannot develop NS2 if we, as a small team with limited free time, spend all our time debating about NS2 with everyone who has an opinon. We would NEVER get anything done, and NS2 development would consist of nothing but opinions being endlessly debated. Having a small team of people working on NS2 allows us to interact, and skim off the best ideas, then concentrate what little free time we have into some great work and patches. We have an internal chat room for our team using Slack. If this were opened up to the public, we honestly would never be able to answer all questions and debates would be endless. Being a global team with limited resources, we have to be efficient, or things simply would not get done. UWE have not open sourced NS2, they have entrusted their valuable IP to the CDT Team, which works on behalf of the community, by community members.
So let me be clear. By actively engaging in the forums, twitter, trello you ARE being a part of development. We need feedback on all our work in order to make things better. Ideas born on the forums often make their way into patches. But we cannot simply open the whole team up to everyone who wants in, because as you already pointed out, focus would be lost and NS2 would suffer the consequences. If you want to join the CDT then please contact us, but every single member goes through a vetting process so that we know they are a team player and can handle the legal issues to do with UWE's intellectual property.
Please note, ANYONE can chat with us, PM us, tweet us (@NS2CDT), vote on Trello cards or post on the forums. You know we read them all, and we reply as often as time allows.
I can understand if everyone was messaging wasabi he might not respond quickly.
I just want to include context of my quote.
I am not saying I agree with the statement. I am identifying the argument that some who do not play compmod have. Honestly I think we should distinguish between "Compmod" and the "Balance mod" that is used in competitive. But because those changes are a part of the competitive servers and mods, and not in vanilla, those who don't play competitive want, care, or even pay attention to the changes. Therefore we shouldn't expect anything other than some of the backlash over the changes, whether or not they're valid arguments. It's just something to expect by the nature of how everything is structured.
We should call the mod something else to avoid ambiguity. The "thoughtful balance mod testing ground" or something.
I personally love most of the changes, just understand I play devil's advocate far too often.
Anyways, long thread short, CDT is awesome, CompMod is prefferred by some players and some players don't prefer it.
Now, continue thread.
... must... not... quote... out of context...
(scnr :P)
We now return to our family-friendly discussion of proper Alien vs Marine violence. Stay tuned!
The sense of entitlement of people who plonk down $20, play the game, and expect to have their online anonymous opinions validated and taken onboard, despite their lack of any expertise or sound reason behind their comments is amazing. You would never ask this of any other product or in any other profession- ever.
You're all getting even more transparency/communication now that the CDT is in charge than you have ever had beforehand with UWE, and you guys still want more? Absurd.
Be grateful that these poor talented volunteers have even been given the opportunity to develop the game further. They have released a few patches, some with problems, but they are finding their feet. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Let them do their work, and actually trust that these people, who have been picked for a reason, actually know what they're doing.
Relax people and smile for a change
That being said, back to the original topic. Above all else, you need to understand that our goal was not to attack the CDT itself, which has done an excellent work so far. We all are total fans of NS2 and that is why this GoogleDoc was created. We did not do it to make a mess, but rather to gather and discuss about problems that needed to be solved. We did not intend to harm or threaten anybody, and we’re sorry if some felt that way. However, there was a reason why the content of this GoogleDoc was not posted, it is because it was not finished and there were a few more details to modify in order to make the whole conform to what we intended to say and avoid all the drama and incomprehension. We need to admit that your initiative to post a preventive reply to our topic forced us to write our own message right away, without time to finish it correctly.
A lot of players were told of our intention and thanks to them the content of the text improved, evolved, some parts were added, some other were deleted. With a few more days of brainstorming, it would’ve been more complete and could open to a real discussion. Our signature system probably wasn’t a good idea, you’ll realize that this is the reason that prevented us from posting the names or links to this document, but only the message while closing the comments on it.
Our action and your reaction, if we follow the comments on this topic, will probably only cause a weakening or division of our already small community, which clearly isn’t your goal nor ours. All the points in this document deserved to be cleared up publicly, and not via E-Mail or Steam when a demand is too strong. It would be a waste of time to answer the same thing to a hundred of players and an official and public reply can only be well-considered. As consequences of this message, changes have been made, answers have been given, like Decoy’s answer to us or the publication of the list of the CDT members.
The goal of this message is to keep the community as it was before, solid, strong and appreciated by the newcomers, not divide or weaken it. Nobody can agree with everyone, but this isn’t the reason why all these ideas are bad, inconceivable, and all those who stand for such ideas must be criticized. The ones who signed approved some points, perhaps one or two, maybe not the whole document, but they agreed enough to sign it. That is their decision, their choice. Nevertheless, their desire to ask for information or disagree with some decision do not affect their love for this great game and its community.
Remember that there is only one NS2, and this the reason why the current players are still present and stay for the game and its community. We do not intend to create more and more drama just for fun, but we have a real desire to improve the game and contribute to it.
One last thing, the recent changes in CompMod added to the vanilla game are only one of the points mentioned on this GoogleDoc but seem to be have taken excessive proportions on this topic, reaching the point where it creates more quarrels, while a simple and calm discussion can be more effective and enjoyable.
We point the problems, but don’t bring any solution. It is always easier to do so, but this doesn’t mean we do not think about any solution. For instance, speaking of transparency, it seems like the Trello is clearer now (or is this only me dreaming?) and some demands were taken in consideration. Thus said, even though you all are available through E-Mails and on forums, some changes that we evoked need their own threads to be opened on the forum to discuss them in-depths. Even if informations are available on the Trello, it will be easier to comment them on the forum instead of voting only. These can be opened by the community, but also by the CDT members if instant feedback is needed, like the eventual new NS2 menu. Such threads can be useful, for sure, but we don’t need some for minor changes and bug solving problems.
Another problem that troubles the community is the presence of PremDiv players among the CDT that take care of the balance. We won’t come back on a debate that leads to nowhere, but we think that one representant of each lower division should be consulted before major balance changes. This would help get the best changes possible and will please lower divisions players that can have some different opinion about balance (we all know the game plays differently in PremDiv and in Div4). This is only an idea, but such as this one, more could sprout.
Also, the inherent nature of a petition with some kind of call to action is the result of a divide or a change in thinking within a group of people by the way. Just so you know. I hope the irony in this situation is not lost on you.