GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited April 2015
Okay here is my really short input:
- NS2 has too many "hidden mechanics" which are part of the core game-play (e.g. the global alien health tick, that biomass increases health etc. ). Those are basically the reason why it's so hard to get into ns2 beside the todays issue of getting mixed up with too advanced players like some other have already brought up.
A game should not rely on other player teaching new players "core mechanics" from the very start.
- When i started ns2 my first thought was that the game is not "casual friendly" enough in pointing out that "in the end" the game is basically about map control and positioning.
My idea back then after playing about 100h was to add something like team zones ( like in e.g. CIV or the Settler ) to the NS2's minimap to clearly tell the player where each team's territory is after those have been scouted, marking possible "combat zones" by overlapping borders and so on . This would tell all players easily what is currently going on, where to go to support the team, where to expect enemies and so on.
Games like LOL indicate those zones by map design and specially by things like towers tracking how far each team has pushed into the others team territory and giving a clear indicator how the round is progressing.
NS2 needs you to basically play 100h to develop the sense for that. Ways to often i saw rookies running deep into the enemies territory (without even noticing) ending up dying in a PvE combat without participating anything to the teams progress.
- The tech trees are not well balanced techs-wise, which lead to the point where you are basically forced to play a certain meta because any kind of alternation of that meta leads most of the times to a certain loose at pub servers. This should clearly change by looking into how to rebalanced to make each tech really a option to choose (in the best case).
- As some other pointed out the marine tech tree is too much only relying on one CC.
Also i have to note that since i play ns2 I basically have seen two kind of people when it came to balance debates, the ones which want to make the game rounds overall faster and based on the overall "twitch performance" of each player and the ones which want to have a bit longer but very strategic and tense rounds relying more on the teams performance.
I did read 1000hrs to learn NS1... whow. Even in NS1 (as for NS2) you could get in a team and learn with dedicated sessions like "this is armor 1, it gives more armor points... look at your HUD". You probably missed that.
Same goes for NS2 except you have a sandbox mode and a tutorial. I mean everything is already here. It just needs a little "auto enable cheats for a fake game with bots". Far from being out of reach.
I don't think it takes a high IQ to get an arms lab up and make some tests. In two hours you can test every life form / weapon and see what it does (Life/+cara/+celerity etc..). Far more efficient than joining a server right away and try to understand the underlying mechanic with not clue or starting point. I would do that first.
Then comes the aim and positioning, knowing the maps, etc... This will come with time and practice.
But to be honest the process any rookie goes through is just "wanna play !". I sense they think NS2 to be a shooter in space while it's not the first thing they should learn about it (even if they never go commander ever).
A game should not rely on other player teaching new players "core mechanics" from the very start.
QFT and i still vote for new players not to be able to join a server (unless it's a fake full of bots) in order to get into the tutorial section first. It's clearly basic right now but it gives some hints about what to do. Then a sandbox session would be nice.
- As some other pointed out the marine tech tree is too much only relying on one CC.
Also i have to note that since i play ns2 I basically have seen to kind of people when it came to balance debates, the ones which want to make the game rounds overall faster and based on the overall "twitch performance" of each player and the ones which want to have a bit longer but very strategic and tense rounds relying more on the teams performance.
I count myself to the second group :P
They are compatible. The thing is that we must be able to choose any strategy instead of what's working best (the most efficient). This leads to repetitive games and complaints about the tunnel/base rush.
This rampant feeling that shade is close to be gone for good makes the game a step closer to the cliff.
Also i have to note that since i play ns2 I basically have seen to kind of people when it came to balance debates, the ones which want to make the game rounds overall faster and based on the overall "twitch performance" of each player and the ones which want to have a bit longer but very strategic and tense rounds relying more on the teams performance
In this respect I truly believe that 75% of games should end more quickly by design because that leaves 25% to be epic. If you try and make even half the games long it ruins that effect of the amazing games we all (take NS2 as the prime example here)
Not commenting on the whole bilerush/gorgetunnel/flamethrower topic, as i feel that is not only flawed but not really relevant for the actual topic.
As said previously, currently marines have to keep pushing, are set to quite basic techroutes, and as an example you can see from the links to d/y&luckycharms match all the stereotypes are there, marines push aliens and try to put themselves ahead in the res game, and in tech as well. The comical aspect of this is how it "seems" balanced when marines have the edge. Until the lifeforms come out, then it goes back to alien favored. And then the cycle continues, the favorites keep changing depending on what tech marines have, and what lifeforms aliens have. This is the problem.
By default aliens start at a disadvantage, but become stronger at the rate of their economy. If marines are able to prolong their advantage from the start, they are as you say "snowballing", but they can't win until they have the tech for it. That is the root of the problem. Why are aliens at a disadvantage? Because at the end of the day skulks are weak.
There is too big of a gap between a skulk, and a lerk, moving forward to a fade and onos. Easiest example to this is, what lifeform will a rookie have easiest time with? Gorge. The least important lifeform in the game to actually win rounds. Because you don't win rounds by farming, you win rounds by killing the enemy team. The obvious solution to this is, in my mind. Make skulks better, make them easier to play. And at the same time, do so for the lifeforms as well. But you can't do just that, you need to balance it from the marine team in comparison. If we break the cycle of the zig-zag "who has the advantage now" from the getgo, we might actually be able to make some of tech choices viable(exo is easiest example here, i would love to have heavy armor of ns1 in this game, it added such a good dynamic and was by no means OP)
I've been pondering about the skulks, what you could do to make it easier for new people, and at the same time improve them only slightly for more experienced players. And what i thought of is a feature we should all be familiar of.. Tagging. (i honestly dont know what else to call this, csgo example, you shoot someone and they are slowed, slow varies depending on the weapon you use)
What's the most essential part of the game as an alien, not land one bite, but consecutive bites that are needed to kill your target. Should we make marines just flat out slower? Should we remove jumping? Or would an alternative be to add aspect that rewards you when you do something essential? If bites would slow you, you would still be able to move normally, as your used to, it would still take the same time reach specific parts of the map. etc.
But should we stop there? What if we make, lerk bite, fade swipe, and even onos gore slow you as well, wouldn't that effectively make it easier to play those lifeforms? Doing so, there might need to be made some HP adjustments to aliens in general, but i think that's relatively easy.
This is the only solution i could think of, that i would feel making a difference. But if you move on to what it would really change.
As an example, let's use the summit rounds as they are played today, there is very few occasions where aliens are able to get more than 1 extra RT up, if aliens are more potent in the early game to contest the marine team in this very small map, they could be more comfortable to get 2 RT's and have a fair chance in keeping them alive. WITHOUT a considerable investment in PVE. The key point here is, the solution is a PVP aspect of the game, not the dire cause of french whine that the normal people call PVE.
Just imagine how differently would those rounds go with aliens at comfortable 3 rt's, the lerk and fade timings.
The hard part about all of this is, how do you balance it so the higher lifeforms aren't too powerful? As the original topic illustrated, marines have a hard time finishing the game, is the solution making alien early game easier, while nerfing the later tech. Or would this be the situation where it's alright to buff some of tech choices from marines, quick examples being your flamethrower, and exo's.
Personally, i'm very curious how the game would really change if a 'tagging' feature would be implemented, shouldn't be too difficult to test something like this, no?
I did read 1000hrs to learn NS1... whow. Even in NS1 (as for NS2) you could get in a team and learn with dedicated sessions like "this is armor 1, it gives more armor points... look at your HUD". You probably missed that.
Same goes for NS2 except you have a sandbox mode and a tutorial. I mean everything is already here. It just needs a little "auto enable cheats for a fake game with bots". Far from being out of reach.
I don't think it takes a high IQ to get an arms lab up and make some tests. In two hours you can test every life form / weapon and see what it does (Life/+cara/+celerity etc..). Far more efficient than joining a server right away and try to understand the underlying mechanic with not clue or starting point. I would do that first.
Then comes the aim and positioning, knowing the maps, etc... This will come with time and practice.
But to be honest the process any rookie goes through is just "wanna play !". I sense they think NS2 to be a shooter in space while it's not the first thing they should learn about it (even if they never go commander ever).
A game should not rely on other player teaching new players "core mechanics" from the very start.
QFT and i still vote for new players not to be able to join a server (unless it's a fake full of bots) in order to get into the tutorial section first. It's clearly basic right now but it gives some hints about what to do. Then a sandbox session would be nice.
- As some other pointed out the marine tech tree is too much only relying on one CC.
Also i have to note that since i play ns2 I basically have seen to kind of people when it came to balance debates, the ones which want to make the game rounds overall faster and based on the overall "twitch performance" of each player and the ones which want to have a bit longer but very strategic and tense rounds relying more on the teams performance.
I count myself to the second group :P
They are compatible. The thing is that we must be able to choose any strategy instead of what's working best (the most efficient). This leads to repetitive games and complaints about the tunnel/base rush.
This rampant feeling that shade is close to be gone for good makes the game a step closer to the cliff.
Hey. Please try to read a bit better. I meant it took me 1000 hours to learn how to really play the game. All your posts are impossible to read and reply to so I'll stop at the forst sentence this time. Maybe Ill read it later
@Ots - any tampering with movement right now, especially alien movement is probably ill advised. There's a lot of people, who either can't or won't play 20 hours a week, who have otherwise spent a lot of time and effort on learning the current movement systems. Some of those have also spent a lot of time and effort learning the old pre-b250 movement system, and was forced, by no fault of their own, to re-learn the current movement system.
b250 was a huge controversy point. I believe it made a better NS2, but it did, without a shadow of doubt, cost us some players.
Something so fundamental as movement shouldn't be tampered with to that degree right now in my opinion. Even if I agreed with your proposition in the first place.
Moreover, that is a hidden mechanic. If people start getting "tagged", they might conclude that it is micro-stutters and that would cause more frustration.
Lastly, that kind of a change would just have massive repercussions in higher levels of play. It would just cause more problems than it would solve in my opinion. And it would only really favor those who can already aim anyway.
It would only effect marine movements(and only if they get hit by a bite), and it would never fix everything by itself but was merely only reasonable thing that would address only a part of the game that is very lacking. So i don't really understand your concern, the only thing it will affect is the outcome of engagements, which is very important aspect in the current game. And please, don't downplay a possible option just because of a random faults in the engine. That is just silly. Being slowed once you're hit is very common in computer games, not all have it but it shouldn't be such a "fundamental change".
I've only played for the last 2 years(?), not really sure but no idea about those controversies you speak of. But i am getting rather tired of these excuses. The game has been more or less the same since i started playing it, the pattern has been the same throughout. The whole point is to break the pattern due to the issues that is produces. You can't do that without doing drastic changes. Simple put, no 'bandaidfixes'.
And again, this is just what i could think of of the top of head, i don't see the other options for straight changes to aliens being a good option. Speed or durability doesn't really solve anything. There's little you can do help players move, or aim better. You know, outside of the obvious and not using a shitty engine. But that's not really an option is it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2015
No, the whole point is not to lower the skill ceiling.. That is not the point of this discussion, remotely.
It's to improve the quality and enjoyment of your average pub game by lessening the impact of PvE, so players can focus and work on PvP and hopefully reduce the demoralizing predictable outcomes of most rounds.
No one likes movement or input inhibiting mechanics.. No one. It's terrible and frustrating - we know because we've tried it before in ns2. Remember?
No, the whole point is not to lower the skill ceiling.. That is not the point of this discussion, remotely.
It's to improve the quality and enjoyment of your average pub game by lessening the impact of PvE, so players can focus and work on PvP and hopefully reduce the demoralizing predictable outcomes of most rounds.
No one likes movement or input inhibiting mechanics.. No one. It's terrible and frustrating - we know because we've tried it before in ns2. Remember?
I agree, but I wouldn't be against getting bitten shaking the camera or something so its hard to see for that 1/2 second. I also don't think that skulk vs marine is in a place that needs help in and of itself. I think that it needs strategy changes around it to give it more meaning in the early game though
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I'd kinda like to steer this back on topic a little bit.
@IronHorse stated the motivation very well. As a typical pub game gets into its last third, the marines are stuck in their base, the map is covered in whips and crags, and there isn't any realistic possibility of the marines doing anything at all. This ironically makes the game take longer to finish because marines that are stuck in their base are well suited to defend their base.
If I can summarize the argument here so far, the central question about comeback mechanics is "shouldn't the winning team just win?" I agree, in most cases they should. The motivation for this is not to make the losing team win very often. It's instead to give the losing team something to shoot for.
When the aliens are locked into one hive with no realistic possibility of expanding, and marines that are accumulating res from most of the map, everyone knows what they are going to try next. The marines know it, the aliens know it, and it motivates both sides.
When marines are locked into one base, there's no rallying objective like this to actually get people out in the field doing something. There's nothing they can accomplish effectively by getting out in the totally infested map, so they just guard the entrances and wait to die. If the marines had a late game hail-mary that was a clear option to everyone, it would dramatically improve these games by making them end more quickly and more dramatically.
When marines are locked into one base, there's no rallying objective like this to actually get people out in the field doing something. There's nothing they can accomplish effectively by getting out in the totally infested map, so they just guard the entrances and wait to die. If the marines had a late game hail-mary that was a clear option to everyone, it would dramatically improve these games by making them end more quickly and more dramatically.
I disagree with marines needing a hail-mary. The aliens need gaming ending 3-hive tech. I think the drama you're talking about creating is artificial and boring. Instead the drama should be centered around the growing the 3rd hive. Just as drama should be centered around the growing 2nd hive.
The problem with this, is that the gorge can build the hive and it then goes up more quickly than marines can respond, in general. To band-aid this short hive-grow time we have biomass. This removes the drama around the hive drops. I would rather hives just cost 90 res off the bat. THAT would be dramatic. Sorry for saying drama too much
edit: This is a lot more reasonable if buildings are untied from infestation, since you can then spend res at any hive location without having to get cysts there.
edit2: Which would then make gorges still important to hive drops.
When marines are locked into one base, there's no rallying objective like this to actually get people out in the field doing something. There's nothing they can accomplish effectively by getting out in the totally infested map, so they just guard the entrances and wait to die. If the marines had a late game hail-mary that was a clear option to everyone, it would dramatically improve these games by making them end more quickly and more dramatically.
I disagree with marines needing a hail-mary. The aliens need gaming ending 3-hive tech. I think the drama you're talking about creating is artificial and boring. Instead the drama should be centered around the growing the 3rd hive. Just as drama should be centered around the growing 2nd hive.
The problem with this, is that the gorge can build the hive and it then goes up more quickly than marines can respond, in general. To band-aid this short hive-grow time we have biomass. This removes the drama around the hive drops. I would rather hives just cost 90 res off the bat. THAT would be dramatic. Sorry for saying drama too much
edit: This is a lot more reasonable if buildings are untied from infestation, since you can then spend res at any hive location without having to get cysts there.
edit2: Which would then make gorges still important to hive drops.
A gorge healing a hive is a unit that will not attack anything. It's only eyes & ears in the foothold. Maybe he is a healing station and for sure a tunnel provider. If the team needs more units; the commander has to get on the field during that time (often the case at some level). It's a trade.
Unlinking the structures from cyst is 1/ contrary to the Alien logic of growing things. 2/ can be literally insane with whips and or healing stations close to marine base... It would end up with shades/crags all over the place. Shift is a cherry on top. And what about whips ?
Of course the cyst is a problem as it is fragile and don't do anything to marine who kills it. I still vote for Cyst to gaz like spores when it is killed. Or to blur the marine screen (weakening the marine) so alien can do something as retaliation. And maybe this chain will have a little rest. At least the marine would have to do it carefully.
Marines should not waste time to finish a game. Rushing in the hive without proper preparation is not tactically wise. They have the 'early' and 'mid-game' (most of it). I don't see why people are complaining about the marine turtling in their last base. They failed, period. The alien path to win a game is actually a "come back" even when it's done without tunnels/bile.
@IronHorse, No i don't remember, cause i have not played a version that had such features. But even if i had, i see no reason why it wouldnt work now. During the time i've played the game has been optimised so much and been made a lot easier to play, features that been "tested" shouldn't be disqualified just with the notion that it's been "tried before".
Futhermore, to reitirate the point of my suggestion was the lower the skillcap, as with all these suggestions you've been "discussing" in the topic so far would with out a doubt in my mind just add unwarranted features in parts of the game that don't need it. I understand it hasnt been anyone elses intention to lower the skillcap. It is simply the notion that feels a lot more reasonable as a first course of action in a crusade to lessen the "comeback" value and make it more balanced game than it is currently.
But since you want to get back to "your issue" i'll say this, there is absolutely no need for a hailmary ability on either sides of the field. If you're stuck in your base you should loose. The example of a bilerush as said is a joke, it is the easiest thing to counter that anyone who has ever been victim to it will with out a doubt go "oh fuck, you got me there, we made a very bad mistake". That's all it is, mistake. Just because someone does a mistake, should not warrant a change in game mechanics.
The notion of how easy, and common it is for alien team to get stuck in their base from very early in the game. Is definately more of what this topic should be about. But since it's started with your ideals, i'll leave you to it. Good luck and have fun.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Ots
You don't have to be stuck in base in order for the round to have a predictable outcome.
In fact, I'd say that if all your team has is their starting base and RT and are unable to win engagements at your naturals / push beyond them into the field - then you should probably call it.
But 9/10 times the predictable outcome can be seen far before it gets to that point. That's where comeback mechanics can shake things up.
So keeping that in mind, would you still advocate for predictable outcomes even knowing that they could be turned around? If so, why? How is predictable enjoyable?
Lastly, a team making mistakes is exactly what determines the winner or loser of every round. Whether they are large mistakes or small mistakes, we've all had post round discussions where we go over what we could have done better, and therefore know that it is not simply two teams operating entirely without error the entire round, where chance alone decides the victor.
So why is it that "damn, we should have gotten A2 earlier to deal with those fades" has merit in your eyes, yet "damn, we should have seen that BB coming a mile away with all the ways to counter it" does not?
Personally, I think it boils down to the perception of effectiveness. A BB rush that ends the round will burn the ego for some, yet a fade that wrecks the field players beyond measure isn't seen in the same light because it slowly whittles you down to that loss instead of being immediate - despite both being counterable.
When marines are locked into one base, there's no rallying objective like this to actually get people out in the field doing something. There's nothing they can accomplish effectively by getting out in the totally infested map, so they just guard the entrances and wait to die. If the marines had a late game hail-mary that was a clear option to everyone, it would dramatically improve these games by making them end more quickly and more dramatically.
I disagree with marines needing a hail-mary. The aliens need gaming ending 3-hive tech. I think the drama you're talking about creating is artificial and boring. Instead the drama should be centered around the growing the 3rd hive. Just as drama should be centered around the growing 2nd hive.
The problem with this, is that the gorge can build the hive and it then goes up more quickly than marines can respond, in general. To band-aid this short hive-grow time we have biomass. This removes the drama around the hive drops. I would rather hives just cost 90 res off the bat. THAT would be dramatic. Sorry for saying drama too much
edit: This is a lot more reasonable if buildings are untied from infestation, since you can then spend res at any hive location without having to get cysts there.
edit2: Which would then make gorges still important to hive drops.
A gorge healing a hive is a unit that will not attack anything. It's only eyes & ears in the foothold. Maybe he is a healing station and for sure a tunnel provider. If the team needs more units; the commander has to get on the field during that time (often the case at some level). It's a trade.
Unlinking the structures from cyst is 1/ contrary to the Alien logic of growing things. 2/ can be literally insane with whips and or healing stations close to marine base... It would end up with shades/crags all over the place. Shift is a cherry on top. And what about whips ?
Of course the cyst is a problem as it is fragile and don't do anything to marine who kills it. I still vote for Cyst to gaz like spores when it is killed. Or to blur the marine screen (weakening the marine) so alien can do something as retaliation. And maybe this chain will have a little rest. At least the marine would have to do it carefully.
Marines should not waste time to finish a game. Rushing in the hive without proper preparation is not tactically wise. They have the 'early' and 'mid-game' (most of it). I don't see why people are complaining about the marine turtling in their last base. They failed, period. The alien path to win a game is actually a "come back" even when it's done without tunnels/bile.
I see you've quoted me, but I won't read your words so... Let's go Rangers!
Wow ok. Spores does not end games. That weird nameless fade ability does not end ganes. Boneshield? does not end games. There is nothing powerful from a 3rd hive besides xenocide, and xenocide SHOULD be useless since you SHOULDn't have skulks at 3 hives.
Wow ok. Spores does not end games. That weird nameless fade ability does not end ganes. Boneshield? does not end games. There is nothing powerful from a 3rd hive besides xenocide, and xenocide SHOULD be useless since you SHOULDn't have skulks at 3 hives.
So, lol.
Spores and boneshield are available on 2 hives aren't they?
You don't always have only higher lifeforms at 3 hives. Plenty of people still overcommit their lifeforms during a marine turtle.
Also, the other game-ending tech is stomp and contamination (if they don't have arcs).
Spores and boneshield are available on 2 hives aren't they?
You don't always have only higher lifeforms at 3 hives. Plenty of people still overcommit their lifeforms during a marine turtle.
Also, the other game-ending tech is stomp and contamination (if they don't have arcs).
ARCs aren't that much of an issue, ARCs won't fire with a Shade building (ink cloud). It requires a commander that will prepare properly (contamination, echo-ing the buildings in a sequence). Eventually scouting with a drifter to make sure to choose the best moves. At this point (3 hives), it's affordable.
Destroy a base only requires a little synchronization. It can be difficult in public games, but nothing unreachable.
IMO, 2 chairs are mainly useful in strengthening a tp with the ability to beacon (the only research you get is dualies). At least in pubs, dual exos don't seem to qualify as game-ending tech (jp's are usually more useful)
Marines don't need a hail-mary, they just need a better gun like the HMG. They need what they need to get back in the game, not to insta-win just because someone thinks they deserve a chance to win when they simple do not deserve a chance to win. You need to MAKE your chance to win
Currently when aliens get 3 hives lerks and fades have nothing much to do. Lerks can umbra, but using spores is a death trap. Fades aren't helped by stab when trying to kill a base. Looking to NS1 again you see that the lerk on 3 hives could increase attack speed of the team across the board, and the fade gained a ranged attack to armor shred from a distance so he can enter the base effectively. Contaminate, as you've said yourself, is a band-aid which should be removed. Biomass health isn't really a huge deal. Sure
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
People talking about t3 tech like it matters, the main benefit from a 2nd or 3rd hive is charge, umbra leap biomass and extra upgrades, everything else is superfluous.
Personally, I think it boils down to the perception of effectiveness. A BB rush that ends the round will burn the ego for some, yet a fade that wrecks the field players beyond measure isn't seen in the same light because it slowly whittles you down to that loss instead of being immediate - despite both being counterable.
This is one of the most ridiculous things you have ever said. These are perceived as different things because they are different things. If a fade start wrecking and we are only on w1/a1 with no SGs, you can quickly tell the commander we need SGs now and to try and push out upgrades ASAP. Maybe we spent our res on early PG tech and failed to get map control, but the situation is understandable to the majority of people. A sneaky tunnel that costs you the game because 1/8th of your team didn't do the right thing and either call it out or scout is extremely frustrating to the majority of people.
You always talk about limiting the effect a good player can have on the game, yet this game has put such a premium on marine lane blocking (way moreso than NS1 ever was) that one or two bad players can have a catastrophic effect on a pub marine team. So many things have to go right for a pub marine team to succeed (intelligent commander, at least a couple good shots to pressure harvesters/frag lifeforms, and good landblocking/recappers/etc) that it is no surprise aliens have a majority win rate on pub servers.
I also disagree when you call it a good comeback mechanic. Sacrificing your fade/onos res for more lerks to get map control back is a comeback mechanic. Giving up map control to get behind lines and bite extractors is a comeback mechanic. Using a sneaky tunnel and all going gorge to bilebomb a power node (abusing awareness of one single marine) is not a good comeback mechanic, it's just cheese.
no surprise aliens have a majority win rate on pub servers.
Reverse issue on the AU 20 player server where there is a large proportion of mid to high skilled players resulting in consistent stomping of alien teams even when massively stacked in alien favour.
Personally, I think it boils down to the perception of effectiveness. A BB rush that ends the round will burn the ego for some, yet a fade that wrecks the field players beyond measure isn't seen in the same light because it slowly whittles you down to that loss instead of being immediate - despite both being counterable.
This is one of the most ridiculous things you have ever said. These are perceived as different things because they are different things. If a fade start wrecking and we are only on w1/a1 with no SGs, you can quickly tell the commander we need SGs now and to try and push out upgrades ASAP. Maybe we spent our res on early PG tech and failed to get map control, but the situation is understandable to the majority of people. A sneaky tunnel that costs you the game because 1/8th of your team didn't do the right thing and either call it out or scout is extremely frustrating to the majority of people.
You always talk about limiting the effect a good player can have on the game, yet this game has put such a premium on marine lane blocking (way moreso than NS1 ever was) that one or two bad players can have a catastrophic effect on a pub marine team. So many things have to go right for a pub marine team to succeed (intelligent commander, at least a couple good shots to pressure harvesters/frag lifeforms, and good landblocking/recappers/etc) that it is no surprise aliens have a majority win rate on pub servers.
Teach them to use their brain and microphone. Being marine do not requires the super 100% aim in the first place.
I also disagree when you call it a good comeback mechanic. Sacrificing your fade/onos res for more lerks to get map control back is a comeback mechanic. Giving up map control to get behind lines and bite extractors is a comeback mechanic. Using a sneaky tunnel and all going gorge to bilebomb a power node (abusing awareness of one single marine) is not a good comeback mechanic, it's just cheese.
The thing is that if the aliens come back like you said; the marine teams has plenty of time for upgrades. And they still only need 1 single base to get Jetpack... Eventually kill the lerks just before that (A2/W2/SG). Needless to say the next move is rushing the single hive, Aliens have. That my friend is cheese.
You probably assume that because the marines have the early game and map control with it; they should stay dominant. You probably think it's unfair to see alien getting back (bile rush or not). Once and for all '100% aim pistoleros' aren't critical in this game. It requires teamwork. If the average marine player is dumb and playing solo; so be it.
I think the aliens require far more teamwork than marines. They have to take hits in the early game. They have to infiltrate and kill RTs. They have Cyst, and complex tech tree. They have to stand with a poker face, waiting for Lerks and / or Fades. And when higher life forms are out it's not a win either. All this in the hope of getting back in the game. Wow... guys...
As long as there is no change in the marine tech tree and all upgrades can be achieved with only one base, it will stay like that. Marines won't look back. So be it.
no surprise aliens have a majority win rate on pub servers.
Reverse issue on the AU 20 player server where there is a large proportion of mid to high skilled players resulting in consistent stomping of alien teams even when massively stacked in alien favour.
plz fix cdt.
I second that. the more the marine are efficient the more time is needed to reverse things in the alien favor.
People talking about t3 tech like it matters, the main benefit from a 2nd or 3rd hive is charge, umbra leap biomass and extra upgrades, everything else is superfluous.
I mean to be clear, all the abilities you mentioned are hive 2. And I FULLY agree, hive 3 abilities are a joke right now, except xenocide, i guess that's done well enough.
Comments
- NS2 has too many "hidden mechanics" which are part of the core game-play (e.g. the global alien health tick, that biomass increases health etc. ). Those are basically the reason why it's so hard to get into ns2 beside the todays issue of getting mixed up with too advanced players like some other have already brought up.
A game should not rely on other player teaching new players "core mechanics" from the very start.
- When i started ns2 my first thought was that the game is not "casual friendly" enough in pointing out that "in the end" the game is basically about map control and positioning.
My idea back then after playing about 100h was to add something like team zones ( like in e.g. CIV or the Settler ) to the NS2's minimap to clearly tell the player where each team's territory is after those have been scouted, marking possible "combat zones" by overlapping borders and so on . This would tell all players easily what is currently going on, where to go to support the team, where to expect enemies and so on.
Games like LOL indicate those zones by map design and specially by things like towers tracking how far each team has pushed into the others team territory and giving a clear indicator how the round is progressing.
NS2 needs you to basically play 100h to develop the sense for that. Ways to often i saw rookies running deep into the enemies territory (without even noticing) ending up dying in a PvE combat without participating anything to the teams progress.
- The tech trees are not well balanced techs-wise, which lead to the point where you are basically forced to play a certain meta because any kind of alternation of that meta leads most of the times to a certain loose at pub servers. This should clearly change by looking into how to rebalanced to make each tech really a option to choose (in the best case).
- As some other pointed out the marine tech tree is too much only relying on one CC.
Also i have to note that since i play ns2 I basically have seen two kind of people when it came to balance debates, the ones which want to make the game rounds overall faster and based on the overall "twitch performance" of each player and the ones which want to have a bit longer but very strategic and tense rounds relying more on the teams performance.
I count myself to the second group :P
I did read 1000hrs to learn NS1... whow. Even in NS1 (as for NS2) you could get in a team and learn with dedicated sessions like "this is armor 1, it gives more armor points... look at your HUD". You probably missed that.
Same goes for NS2 except you have a sandbox mode and a tutorial. I mean everything is already here. It just needs a little "auto enable cheats for a fake game with bots". Far from being out of reach.
I don't think it takes a high IQ to get an arms lab up and make some tests. In two hours you can test every life form / weapon and see what it does (Life/+cara/+celerity etc..). Far more efficient than joining a server right away and try to understand the underlying mechanic with not clue or starting point. I would do that first.
Then comes the aim and positioning, knowing the maps, etc... This will come with time and practice.
But to be honest the process any rookie goes through is just "wanna play !". I sense they think NS2 to be a shooter in space while it's not the first thing they should learn about it (even if they never go commander ever).
QFT and i still vote for new players not to be able to join a server (unless it's a fake full of bots) in order to get into the tutorial section first. It's clearly basic right now but it gives some hints about what to do. Then a sandbox session would be nice.
They are compatible. The thing is that we must be able to choose any strategy instead of what's working best (the most efficient). This leads to repetitive games and complaints about the tunnel/base rush.
This rampant feeling that shade is close to be gone for good makes the game a step closer to the cliff.
In this respect I truly believe that 75% of games should end more quickly by design because that leaves 25% to be epic. If you try and make even half the games long it ruins that effect of the amazing games we all (take NS2 as the prime example here)
Not commenting on the whole bilerush/gorgetunnel/flamethrower topic, as i feel that is not only flawed but not really relevant for the actual topic.
As said previously, currently marines have to keep pushing, are set to quite basic techroutes, and as an example you can see from the links to d/y&luckycharms match all the stereotypes are there, marines push aliens and try to put themselves ahead in the res game, and in tech as well. The comical aspect of this is how it "seems" balanced when marines have the edge. Until the lifeforms come out, then it goes back to alien favored. And then the cycle continues, the favorites keep changing depending on what tech marines have, and what lifeforms aliens have. This is the problem.
By default aliens start at a disadvantage, but become stronger at the rate of their economy. If marines are able to prolong their advantage from the start, they are as you say "snowballing", but they can't win until they have the tech for it. That is the root of the problem. Why are aliens at a disadvantage? Because at the end of the day skulks are weak.
There is too big of a gap between a skulk, and a lerk, moving forward to a fade and onos. Easiest example to this is, what lifeform will a rookie have easiest time with? Gorge. The least important lifeform in the game to actually win rounds. Because you don't win rounds by farming, you win rounds by killing the enemy team. The obvious solution to this is, in my mind. Make skulks better, make them easier to play. And at the same time, do so for the lifeforms as well. But you can't do just that, you need to balance it from the marine team in comparison. If we break the cycle of the zig-zag "who has the advantage now" from the getgo, we might actually be able to make some of tech choices viable(exo is easiest example here, i would love to have heavy armor of ns1 in this game, it added such a good dynamic and was by no means OP)
I've been pondering about the skulks, what you could do to make it easier for new people, and at the same time improve them only slightly for more experienced players. And what i thought of is a feature we should all be familiar of.. Tagging. (i honestly dont know what else to call this, csgo example, you shoot someone and they are slowed, slow varies depending on the weapon you use)
What's the most essential part of the game as an alien, not land one bite, but consecutive bites that are needed to kill your target. Should we make marines just flat out slower? Should we remove jumping? Or would an alternative be to add aspect that rewards you when you do something essential? If bites would slow you, you would still be able to move normally, as your used to, it would still take the same time reach specific parts of the map. etc.
But should we stop there? What if we make, lerk bite, fade swipe, and even onos gore slow you as well, wouldn't that effectively make it easier to play those lifeforms? Doing so, there might need to be made some HP adjustments to aliens in general, but i think that's relatively easy.
This is the only solution i could think of, that i would feel making a difference. But if you move on to what it would really change.
As an example, let's use the summit rounds as they are played today, there is very few occasions where aliens are able to get more than 1 extra RT up, if aliens are more potent in the early game to contest the marine team in this very small map, they could be more comfortable to get 2 RT's and have a fair chance in keeping them alive. WITHOUT a considerable investment in PVE. The key point here is, the solution is a PVP aspect of the game, not the dire cause of french whine that the normal people call PVE.
Just imagine how differently would those rounds go with aliens at comfortable 3 rt's, the lerk and fade timings.
The hard part about all of this is, how do you balance it so the higher lifeforms aren't too powerful? As the original topic illustrated, marines have a hard time finishing the game, is the solution making alien early game easier, while nerfing the later tech. Or would this be the situation where it's alright to buff some of tech choices from marines, quick examples being your flamethrower, and exo's.
Personally, i'm very curious how the game would really change if a 'tagging' feature would be implemented, shouldn't be too difficult to test something like this, no?
Hey. Please try to read a bit better. I meant it took me 1000 hours to learn how to really play the game. All your posts are impossible to read and reply to so I'll stop at the forst sentence this time. Maybe Ill read it later
b250 was a huge controversy point. I believe it made a better NS2, but it did, without a shadow of doubt, cost us some players.
Something so fundamental as movement shouldn't be tampered with to that degree right now in my opinion. Even if I agreed with your proposition in the first place.
Moreover, that is a hidden mechanic. If people start getting "tagged", they might conclude that it is micro-stutters and that would cause more frustration.
Lastly, that kind of a change would just have massive repercussions in higher levels of play. It would just cause more problems than it would solve in my opinion. And it would only really favor those who can already aim anyway.
I've only played for the last 2 years(?), not really sure but no idea about those controversies you speak of. But i am getting rather tired of these excuses. The game has been more or less the same since i started playing it, the pattern has been the same throughout. The whole point is to break the pattern due to the issues that is produces. You can't do that without doing drastic changes. Simple put, no 'bandaidfixes'.
And again, this is just what i could think of of the top of head, i don't see the other options for straight changes to aliens being a good option. Speed or durability doesn't really solve anything. There's little you can do help players move, or aim better. You know, outside of the obvious and not using a shitty engine. But that's not really an option is it.
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Whole point is to lower the skillcap. FYI.
It's to improve the quality and enjoyment of your average pub game by lessening the impact of PvE, so players can focus and work on PvP and hopefully reduce the demoralizing predictable outcomes of most rounds.
No one likes movement or input inhibiting mechanics.. No one. It's terrible and frustrating - we know because we've tried it before in ns2. Remember?
I agree, but I wouldn't be against getting bitten shaking the camera or something so its hard to see for that 1/2 second. I also don't think that skulk vs marine is in a place that needs help in and of itself. I think that it needs strategy changes around it to give it more meaning in the early game though
@IronHorse stated the motivation very well. As a typical pub game gets into its last third, the marines are stuck in their base, the map is covered in whips and crags, and there isn't any realistic possibility of the marines doing anything at all. This ironically makes the game take longer to finish because marines that are stuck in their base are well suited to defend their base.
If I can summarize the argument here so far, the central question about comeback mechanics is "shouldn't the winning team just win?" I agree, in most cases they should. The motivation for this is not to make the losing team win very often. It's instead to give the losing team something to shoot for.
When the aliens are locked into one hive with no realistic possibility of expanding, and marines that are accumulating res from most of the map, everyone knows what they are going to try next. The marines know it, the aliens know it, and it motivates both sides.
When marines are locked into one base, there's no rallying objective like this to actually get people out in the field doing something. There's nothing they can accomplish effectively by getting out in the totally infested map, so they just guard the entrances and wait to die. If the marines had a late game hail-mary that was a clear option to everyone, it would dramatically improve these games by making them end more quickly and more dramatically.
I disagree with marines needing a hail-mary. The aliens need gaming ending 3-hive tech. I think the drama you're talking about creating is artificial and boring. Instead the drama should be centered around the growing the 3rd hive. Just as drama should be centered around the growing 2nd hive.
The problem with this, is that the gorge can build the hive and it then goes up more quickly than marines can respond, in general. To band-aid this short hive-grow time we have biomass. This removes the drama around the hive drops. I would rather hives just cost 90 res off the bat. THAT would be dramatic. Sorry for saying drama too much
edit: This is a lot more reasonable if buildings are untied from infestation, since you can then spend res at any hive location without having to get cysts there.
edit2: Which would then make gorges still important to hive drops.
A gorge healing a hive is a unit that will not attack anything. It's only eyes & ears in the foothold. Maybe he is a healing station and for sure a tunnel provider. If the team needs more units; the commander has to get on the field during that time (often the case at some level). It's a trade.
Unlinking the structures from cyst is 1/ contrary to the Alien logic of growing things. 2/ can be literally insane with whips and or healing stations close to marine base... It would end up with shades/crags all over the place. Shift is a cherry on top. And what about whips ?
Of course the cyst is a problem as it is fragile and don't do anything to marine who kills it. I still vote for Cyst to gaz like spores when it is killed. Or to blur the marine screen (weakening the marine) so alien can do something as retaliation. And maybe this chain will have a little rest. At least the marine would have to do it carefully.
Marines should not waste time to finish a game. Rushing in the hive without proper preparation is not tactically wise. They have the 'early' and 'mid-game' (most of it). I don't see why people are complaining about the marine turtling in their last base. They failed, period. The alien path to win a game is actually a "come back" even when it's done without tunnels/bile.
Also, have you considered that such a change not only does not solve the symptoms pointed out in this thread, but exacerbates them?
They already have that ..?
Futhermore, to reitirate the point of my suggestion was the lower the skillcap, as with all these suggestions you've been "discussing" in the topic so far would with out a doubt in my mind just add unwarranted features in parts of the game that don't need it. I understand it hasnt been anyone elses intention to lower the skillcap. It is simply the notion that feels a lot more reasonable as a first course of action in a crusade to lessen the "comeback" value and make it more balanced game than it is currently.
But since you want to get back to "your issue" i'll say this, there is absolutely no need for a hailmary ability on either sides of the field. If you're stuck in your base you should loose. The example of a bilerush as said is a joke, it is the easiest thing to counter that anyone who has ever been victim to it will with out a doubt go "oh fuck, you got me there, we made a very bad mistake". That's all it is, mistake. Just because someone does a mistake, should not warrant a change in game mechanics.
The notion of how easy, and common it is for alien team to get stuck in their base from very early in the game. Is definately more of what this topic should be about. But since it's started with your ideals, i'll leave you to it. Good luck and have fun.
You don't have to be stuck in base in order for the round to have a predictable outcome.
In fact, I'd say that if all your team has is their starting base and RT and are unable to win engagements at your naturals / push beyond them into the field - then you should probably call it.
But 9/10 times the predictable outcome can be seen far before it gets to that point. That's where comeback mechanics can shake things up.
So keeping that in mind, would you still advocate for predictable outcomes even knowing that they could be turned around? If so, why? How is predictable enjoyable?
Lastly, a team making mistakes is exactly what determines the winner or loser of every round. Whether they are large mistakes or small mistakes, we've all had post round discussions where we go over what we could have done better, and therefore know that it is not simply two teams operating entirely without error the entire round, where chance alone decides the victor.
So why is it that "damn, we should have gotten A2 earlier to deal with those fades" has merit in your eyes, yet "damn, we should have seen that BB coming a mile away with all the ways to counter it" does not?
Personally, I think it boils down to the perception of effectiveness. A BB rush that ends the round will burn the ego for some, yet a fade that wrecks the field players beyond measure isn't seen in the same light because it slowly whittles you down to that loss instead of being immediate - despite both being counterable.
I see you've quoted me, but I won't read your words so... Let's go Rangers!
Wow ok. Spores does not end games. That weird nameless fade ability does not end ganes. Boneshield? does not end games. There is nothing powerful from a 3rd hive besides xenocide, and xenocide SHOULD be useless since you SHOULDn't have skulks at 3 hives.
So, lol.
Spores and boneshield are available on 2 hives aren't they?
You don't always have only higher lifeforms at 3 hives. Plenty of people still overcommit their lifeforms during a marine turtle.
Also, the other game-ending tech is stomp and contamination (if they don't have arcs).
ARCs aren't that much of an issue, ARCs won't fire with a Shade building (ink cloud). It requires a commander that will prepare properly (contamination, echo-ing the buildings in a sequence). Eventually scouting with a drifter to make sure to choose the best moves. At this point (3 hives), it's affordable.
Destroy a base only requires a little synchronization. It can be difficult in public games, but nothing unreachable.
Also, you still did not answer my first question. Or the second.
Marines don't need a hail-mary, they just need a better gun like the HMG. They need what they need to get back in the game, not to insta-win just because someone thinks they deserve a chance to win when they simple do not deserve a chance to win. You need to MAKE your chance to win
Currently when aliens get 3 hives lerks and fades have nothing much to do. Lerks can umbra, but using spores is a death trap. Fades aren't helped by stab when trying to kill a base. Looking to NS1 again you see that the lerk on 3 hives could increase attack speed of the team across the board, and the fade gained a ranged attack to armor shred from a distance so he can enter the base effectively. Contaminate, as you've said yourself, is a band-aid which should be removed. Biomass health isn't really a huge deal. Sure
Also splash damage on fist, dem pesky skulks keep crawling all over the exos. Maybe add welder fist too.
This is one of the most ridiculous things you have ever said. These are perceived as different things because they are different things. If a fade start wrecking and we are only on w1/a1 with no SGs, you can quickly tell the commander we need SGs now and to try and push out upgrades ASAP. Maybe we spent our res on early PG tech and failed to get map control, but the situation is understandable to the majority of people. A sneaky tunnel that costs you the game because 1/8th of your team didn't do the right thing and either call it out or scout is extremely frustrating to the majority of people.
You always talk about limiting the effect a good player can have on the game, yet this game has put such a premium on marine lane blocking (way moreso than NS1 ever was) that one or two bad players can have a catastrophic effect on a pub marine team. So many things have to go right for a pub marine team to succeed (intelligent commander, at least a couple good shots to pressure harvesters/frag lifeforms, and good landblocking/recappers/etc) that it is no surprise aliens have a majority win rate on pub servers.
I also disagree when you call it a good comeback mechanic. Sacrificing your fade/onos res for more lerks to get map control back is a comeback mechanic. Giving up map control to get behind lines and bite extractors is a comeback mechanic. Using a sneaky tunnel and all going gorge to bilebomb a power node (abusing awareness of one single marine) is not a good comeback mechanic, it's just cheese.
Reverse issue on the AU 20 player server where there is a large proportion of mid to high skilled players resulting in consistent stomping of alien teams even when massively stacked in alien favour.
plz fix cdt.
The thing is that if the aliens come back like you said; the marine teams has plenty of time for upgrades. And they still only need 1 single base to get Jetpack... Eventually kill the lerks just before that (A2/W2/SG). Needless to say the next move is rushing the single hive, Aliens have. That my friend is cheese.
You probably assume that because the marines have the early game and map control with it; they should stay dominant. You probably think it's unfair to see alien getting back (bile rush or not). Once and for all '100% aim pistoleros' aren't critical in this game. It requires teamwork. If the average marine player is dumb and playing solo; so be it.
I think the aliens require far more teamwork than marines. They have to take hits in the early game. They have to infiltrate and kill RTs. They have Cyst, and complex tech tree. They have to stand with a poker face, waiting for Lerks and / or Fades. And when higher life forms are out it's not a win either. All this in the hope of getting back in the game. Wow... guys...
As long as there is no change in the marine tech tree and all upgrades can be achieved with only one base, it will stay like that. Marines won't look back. So be it.
I second that. the more the marine are efficient the more time is needed to reverse things in the alien favor.
I mean to be clear, all the abilities you mentioned are hive 2. And I FULLY agree, hive 3 abilities are a joke right now, except xenocide, i guess that's done well enough.