dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2015
I dont think that screen messages are enough.
Ages ago i tested some mods for sewlek and he made this HUGE welcome banner wich shows something like "This is a test, this server is running some beta mods".
And with HUGE i mean really HUGE.
After 30 min into the game one of the players was saying:
"Wait, something is wrong here. Is this server modded?"
In moments like these i doubt about the sanity of current online players.
A nice female voice wich guide new players through there "missions" is needed here.
Ages ago i tested some mods for sewlek and he made this HUGE welcome banner wich shows something like "This is a test, this server is running some beta mods".
And with HUGE i mean really HUGE.
After 30 min into the game one of the players was saying:
"Wait, something is wrong here. Is this server modded?"
In moments like these i doubt about the sanity of current online players.
A nice female voice wich guide new players through there "missions" is needed here.
Ages ago i tested some mods for sewlek and he made this HUGE welcome banner wich shows something like "This is a test, this server is running some beta mods".
And with HUGE i mean really HUGE.
After 30 min into the game one of the players was saying:
"Wait, something is wrong here. Is this server modded?"
In moments like these i doubt about the sanity of current online players.
A nice female voice wich guide new players through there "missions" is needed here.
This is so true. I remember seeing the same thing during sewleks balance mod. One of the servers I play on has a captains mod, where it tells you how to vote for captains in big letters on the middle of the screen. A veteran asked "how do I vote for captains" and was told to look at his screen, only to respond "I don't see anything."
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2015
This is partly why our current tip system doesn't work, as well. (when it's not just outright broken, as it frequently does. type resethelp in the console to witness)
I've sat behind thousands of players in person at PAX events and was just bewildered how a large bright yellow floating icon in the center of the screen that says press B to evolve would sit there allllll round and the player would never spend any of his 100 personal resources.
Baffled me.
I think there's just too much stimuli occurring in a non controlled environment. RTS games do a good job of blurring out the entire screen except for a single HUD element during tutorials.
We put shelves, carts, and a sign saying USE OTHER DOOR blocking the path to that door from the registers.
People would move the sign, shelves and carts of the way and procede to walk face-first into the locked door. (I'm being totally serious, dozens of people a night)
I got the idea that people like shinies, so I covered the edges of the "use other door sign" with tin foil.
People stopped using that door when it was closed.
I think the biggest mistake that rookies make is simply being too loud. They never sneak and probably dont know that they can sneak. Everyone who knows this gets a 5 sec head start before the engagement has even started. And when the rookie skulk comes into the room and gets killed without warning its always "wtf"
Waiting a long time to evolve to a higher lifeform and flash it on first engagement
Not checking my corners/vents
Don´t know how to aim
But there where lot´s of people who teached me during games. That´s a plus
I learned important stuff like Zoning, Laneblocking, Rotation waaaay later at around 800hours gametime, though I sometimes did it unconsciously right before.
The game actually mentions this nowhere I guess.
I think the biggest mistake that rookies make is simply being too loud. They never sneak and probably dont know that they can sneak. Everyone who knows this gets a 5 sec head start before the engagement has even started. And when the rookie skulk comes into the room and gets killed without warning its always "wtf"
There's just a lack of information about the game. Skulk hopping, fade hopping. Stuff about positioning and awareness is pointless because a noob isnt going to be able to apply those concepts in a practical sense but an instructional guide on how to move as an alien is naturally more productive and intuitive.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2015
The new players have some real "strange" behaviours sometimes.
New to the game or not, there some things i dont understand.
Examples:
- Axing an tunnel again and again while aliens popping out instead of using there ranged weapons and shoot it from the safe distance
- running around in lemming packs huge as possible while the other side is complete unprotected (its like small kids playing soccer and everyone is running to the ball)
- running on the floor as skulk loud as possible straight into 5 marines alone again and again ( are they doing this in an WW2 shooter also? running on an open field straight to an tank?)
- walking lerks (seems like they dont know what wings are for)
- if the coms drops a structure and they hear "build structure at waypoint" everyone is building without covering the area (lemming mentality again)
These are only some examples, they are many more.
Even if im new to the game it must be clear that the marines losing all the cool stuff on the left side, if all marines running to right.
It must be clear that the marine can hear me as skulk if im running around without sneaking.
But there so many players failing at these simple game independent basics im afraid a tutorial cannot really help here,
In Cs:Go the CTs splitting up @ round start, why they are not doing this in NS2?
In an WW2 shoter they try to sneak behind a tank, in NS2 they dont care about sneaking.
On top of that it seems they forget the RTS element completely.
In every real RTS game is is clear that the enemy is going to win if you let him all the ressource points. So why do they not attack the enemys RTs nonstop.
No res=huge disatvantage.
Sometimes it looks like the new players never heard about RTS games.
When talking about aiming and mechanical challenges in general, it's usually good to recognize how much of the raw skill can and should be compensated by good anticipation and understanding of the surroundings. Being able get some engagements on your terms gives you really easy and comfortable frags without having to pull off any mechanical heroics. Once you've established some comfort zone, you can start working on the remaining challenges in a much more gradual and less overwhelming way.
This is partly why our current tip system doesn't work, as well. (when it's not just outright broken, as it frequently does. type resethelp in the console to witness)
I've sat behind thousands of players in person at PAX events and was just bewildered how a large bright yellow floating icon in the center of the screen that says press B to evolve would sit there allllll round and the player would never spend any of his 100 personal resources.
Baffled me.
I think there's just too much stimuli occurring in a non controlled environment. RTS games do a good job of blurring out the entire screen except for a single HUD element during tutorials.
This is what I meant by whack-a-mole of information. There are so many popup messages, occassional HUD icons and all that that you easily start zoning them out. It's a little like someone speaking a foreign language to a microphone makes you ignore him and keep on ignoring him even when he switches back to a language you understand.
I don't think it has so much to do with tutorial (might be doable too though), but the way the HUD is designed in general. Cut down the excess information, make important statuses stick permanently to the screen and highlight the key things further and you're making the game way more accessible. Probably you can also use the pacing to your advantage by displaying important information while the player is gestating or waiting in spawn queue and so on.
Also, things like colour coding should be utilized better. I remember that first time I commed I interpreted the greyish 'available' colour as unavailable as most RTS games do that. A green/red colour scheme can do wonder whenever you're trying to narrow down actions you should be considering.
In general text is usually the last resort when it comes to giving guidance. Surely it's necessary in many situations, but it's even unpleasant to pause to read a text and figure out the context of the message while you're trying to play a fast paced FPS. Whenever you can, try to get away with sound, icons, colours and that kind of stuff.
It's a little like someone speaking a foreign language to a microphone makes you ignore him and keep on ignoring him even when he switches back to a language you understand.
That is so strange. Do people really do that? If someone is speaking a foreign language, I'm automatically going to focus on that voice, in an attempt to catch a word or a phrase that I understand, and then try and extrapolate what the conversation may be about.
Likewise, if there's some hud notification I don't know what is for, I will focus on it and try to figure out what the hell it means.
What you describe is completely foreign to me. I suppose people have different reactions to those kinds of things.
It's a little like someone speaking a foreign language to a microphone makes you ignore him and keep on ignoring him even when he switches back to a language you understand.
That is so strange. Do people really do that? If someone is speaking a foreign language, I'm automatically going to focus on that voice, in an attempt to catch a word or a phrase that I understand, and then try and extrapolate what the conversation may be about.
Likewise, if there's some hud notification I don't know what is for, I will focus on it and try to figure out what the hell it means.
What you describe is completely foreign to me. I suppose people have different reactions to those kinds of things.
If you can actually focus on the stuff and believe that you can actually make something out of the message, surely you can work on it. Meanwhile if I hear random soundbites of total gibberish (Russian for example) or see an icon that disappears a brief moment later and doesn't reappear, I kind of tend to focus on the dozen other things going on in your average game of RTS/FPS hybrid. Also, if you start focusing on one thing only, you're probably going miss out on a few other, possibly vital, pieces of information.
Permanent icons are also good partitially because it's much easier to figure out their meaning at your own pace rather than having to identify the context exactly as the icon pops up.
The new players have some real "strange" behaviours sometimes.
New to the game or not, there some things i dont understand.
Examples:
- Axing an tunnel again and again while aliens popping out instead of using there ranged weapons and shoot it from the safe distance
- running around in lemming packs huge as possible while the other side is complete unprotected (its like small kids playing soccer and everyone is running to the ball)
- running on the floor as skulk loud as possible straight into 5 marines alone again and again ( are they doing this in an WW2 shooter also? running on an open field straight to an tank?)
- walking lerks (seems like they dont know what wings are for)
- if the coms drops a structure and they hear "build structure at waypoint" everyone is building without covering the area (lemming mentality again)
These are only some examples, they are many more.
Even if im new to the game it must be clear that the marines losing all the cool stuff on the left side, if all marines running to right.
It must be clear that the marine can hear me as skulk if im running around without sneaking.
But there so many players failing at these simple game independent basics im afraid a tutorial cannot really help here,
I see these behaviors too. It is very odd. I have to disagree that a tutorial can not help. Most of the time if I call them out by name and tell them not what they are doing wrong, but a tip that may help them and why they do it.
So often as you say, I see rookie marines not use range to their advantage. Quite a long while ago a rookie died as an exo very fast. He complained and did not understand why. I explained that the exo was not a tank and could not rush the hive alone. They next game he and I were both exo's and he was just rushing out headfirst into the hive during a seige. I told him "Hey, (name), your a exo. Stand as far away from where the skulk is and make him come to you. That way you have more time to shoot him." He listened and learned something. He was able to take that and use it to be a better marine.
For a real example that I can remember, the other night marines conceded. I was an alien. There was rookie enraged in chat asking why the heck did they concede. The map was derelict. I said "Hey, (name), us aliens had the entire map except marine base (garage) and biome (phasegate). As soon as marines try to rush a hive, aliens would have rushed in killed the chair and won." I did not get a response for over a minute but that player said "thank you, I see why now" much to my satisfaction.
If you are calm and friendly, and clearly say what the player is doing wrong, why is is wrong, and how they can do better they will often do it. What is lacking here is a way to do this for the masses. I do not have the patience or desire to do this for each and every player, or even a few players on a server. A proper tutorial could address so many of these basic things on a grand scale.
Also, new idea just now. What if there was the basic very short forced tutorial that went over the grand picture before a rookie was allowed to play the game. They then play on some sort of rookie only or other method of segregated servers. The hive system has a sort of level system based of performance and time played. What if as a rookie levels up, they are prompted with more advanced tutorials as they level up.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2015
One of my gripes about the the game is that how easily the key objectives of the game often become drowned out by noise.
For example, the Resource Node icons could be highlighted better (eg in different colours) on the minimap, so players can easily assess the map control at a glance. Currently, it can be a struggle for new players to even count the total number of resource nodes from the minimap once it becomes cluttered by structures. Power Nodes are another type of key game element that deserve, but lack highlighting. They can be difficult to see and find in rooms filled by other Marine structures, and can go down surprisingly quick. How many players have experienced difficulty finding that Prototype Lab on some maps on some occasions?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2015
Well, technically my rookie time was in NS1.03 and soon after NS1.04... I never really was a rookie in NS2, along with all the other vets from NS...
But NS2 and NS kinda have similar issues for rookies... Mostly with big bad marines waltzing through my awesome Gorge farm and I died, no idea what happened or why it was so fast (end game tech vs lonely newbie gorge building OC towers)
So, I guess too much waltz and not enough walls of lame on my part, that was my biggest issue during my first few rounds, the pure and utter chaos of the game along with no idea where to go and what to do... But then again I come from a breed of gamers that wants to learn from mistakes and when things get though, instead of ragequiting back to farm/gorgeville
^along with awesome peeps who knew the game and taught me, I stepped into the realm of shooting gun and scaling walls like a professional amateur
Comments
Ages ago i tested some mods for sewlek and he made this HUGE welcome banner wich shows something like "This is a test, this server is running some beta mods".
And with HUGE i mean really HUGE.
After 30 min into the game one of the players was saying:
"Wait, something is wrong here. Is this server modded?"
In moments like these i doubt about the sanity of current online players.
A nice female voice wich guide new players through there "missions" is needed here.
Haha it's funny how male vs female voices are used. Was learning about this in a subway (metro) setting recently
On screen messages do not work.
I guess reading is going out of style these days
I've sat behind thousands of players in person at PAX events and was just bewildered how a large bright yellow floating icon in the center of the screen that says press B to evolve would sit there allllll round and the player would never spend any of his 100 personal resources.
Baffled me.
I think there's just too much stimuli occurring in a non controlled environment. RTS games do a good job of blurring out the entire screen except for a single HUD element during tutorials.
Have them flash a few times. It'll draw people's attention.
lol... oh my... you were serious?
I used to work evenings at a grocery store.
One door would get locked around 9pm.
We put shelves, carts, and a sign saying USE OTHER DOOR blocking the path to that door from the registers.
People would move the sign, shelves and carts of the way and procede to walk face-first into the locked door. (I'm being totally serious, dozens of people a night)
I got the idea that people like shinies, so I covered the edges of the "use other door sign" with tin foil.
People stopped using that door when it was closed.
Make it shiny, and they will look.
They actually do bounce / float up and down... (or did?)
can't you turn them off if you're annoyed by them?
But there where lot´s of people who teached me during games. That´s a plus
I learned important stuff like Zoning, Laneblocking, Rotation waaaay later at around 800hours gametime, though I sometimes did it unconsciously right before.
The game actually mentions this nowhere I guess.
A loud skulk is a dead skulk
New to the game or not, there some things i dont understand.
Examples:
- Axing an tunnel again and again while aliens popping out instead of using there ranged weapons and shoot it from the safe distance
- running around in lemming packs huge as possible while the other side is complete unprotected (its like small kids playing soccer and everyone is running to the ball)
- running on the floor as skulk loud as possible straight into 5 marines alone again and again ( are they doing this in an WW2 shooter also? running on an open field straight to an tank?)
- walking lerks (seems like they dont know what wings are for)
- if the coms drops a structure and they hear "build structure at waypoint" everyone is building without covering the area (lemming mentality again)
These are only some examples, they are many more.
Even if im new to the game it must be clear that the marines losing all the cool stuff on the left side, if all marines running to right.
It must be clear that the marine can hear me as skulk if im running around without sneaking.
But there so many players failing at these simple game independent basics im afraid a tutorial cannot really help here,
In Cs:Go the CTs splitting up @ round start, why they are not doing this in NS2?
In an WW2 shoter they try to sneak behind a tank, in NS2 they dont care about sneaking.
On top of that it seems they forget the RTS element completely.
In every real RTS game is is clear that the enemy is going to win if you let him all the ressource points. So why do they not attack the enemys RTs nonstop.
No res=huge disatvantage.
Sometimes it looks like the new players never heard about RTS games.
This is what I meant by whack-a-mole of information. There are so many popup messages, occassional HUD icons and all that that you easily start zoning them out. It's a little like someone speaking a foreign language to a microphone makes you ignore him and keep on ignoring him even when he switches back to a language you understand.
I don't think it has so much to do with tutorial (might be doable too though), but the way the HUD is designed in general. Cut down the excess information, make important statuses stick permanently to the screen and highlight the key things further and you're making the game way more accessible. Probably you can also use the pacing to your advantage by displaying important information while the player is gestating or waiting in spawn queue and so on.
Also, things like colour coding should be utilized better. I remember that first time I commed I interpreted the greyish 'available' colour as unavailable as most RTS games do that. A green/red colour scheme can do wonder whenever you're trying to narrow down actions you should be considering.
In general text is usually the last resort when it comes to giving guidance. Surely it's necessary in many situations, but it's even unpleasant to pause to read a text and figure out the context of the message while you're trying to play a fast paced FPS. Whenever you can, try to get away with sound, icons, colours and that kind of stuff.
That is so strange. Do people really do that? If someone is speaking a foreign language, I'm automatically going to focus on that voice, in an attempt to catch a word or a phrase that I understand, and then try and extrapolate what the conversation may be about.
Likewise, if there's some hud notification I don't know what is for, I will focus on it and try to figure out what the hell it means.
What you describe is completely foreign to me. I suppose people have different reactions to those kinds of things.
Permanent icons are also good partitially because it's much easier to figure out their meaning at your own pace rather than having to identify the context exactly as the icon pops up.
I see these behaviors too. It is very odd. I have to disagree that a tutorial can not help. Most of the time if I call them out by name and tell them not what they are doing wrong, but a tip that may help them and why they do it.
So often as you say, I see rookie marines not use range to their advantage. Quite a long while ago a rookie died as an exo very fast. He complained and did not understand why. I explained that the exo was not a tank and could not rush the hive alone. They next game he and I were both exo's and he was just rushing out headfirst into the hive during a seige. I told him "Hey, (name), your a exo. Stand as far away from where the skulk is and make him come to you. That way you have more time to shoot him." He listened and learned something. He was able to take that and use it to be a better marine.
For a real example that I can remember, the other night marines conceded. I was an alien. There was rookie enraged in chat asking why the heck did they concede. The map was derelict. I said "Hey, (name), us aliens had the entire map except marine base (garage) and biome (phasegate). As soon as marines try to rush a hive, aliens would have rushed in killed the chair and won." I did not get a response for over a minute but that player said "thank you, I see why now" much to my satisfaction.
If you are calm and friendly, and clearly say what the player is doing wrong, why is is wrong, and how they can do better they will often do it. What is lacking here is a way to do this for the masses. I do not have the patience or desire to do this for each and every player, or even a few players on a server. A proper tutorial could address so many of these basic things on a grand scale.
Also, new idea just now. What if there was the basic very short forced tutorial that went over the grand picture before a rookie was allowed to play the game. They then play on some sort of rookie only or other method of segregated servers. The hive system has a sort of level system based of performance and time played. What if as a rookie levels up, they are prompted with more advanced tutorials as they level up.
I noticed that's what Guild Wars 2 does for it's notifications too. Seems to work well if done in an elegant way.
For example, the Resource Node icons could be highlighted better (eg in different colours) on the minimap, so players can easily assess the map control at a glance. Currently, it can be a struggle for new players to even count the total number of resource nodes from the minimap once it becomes cluttered by structures. Power Nodes are another type of key game element that deserve, but lack highlighting. They can be difficult to see and find in rooms filled by other Marine structures, and can go down surprisingly quick. How many players have experienced difficulty finding that Prototype Lab on some maps on some occasions?
But NS2 and NS kinda have similar issues for rookies... Mostly with big bad marines waltzing through my awesome Gorge farm and I died, no idea what happened or why it was so fast (end game tech vs lonely newbie gorge building OC towers)
So, I guess too much waltz and not enough walls of lame on my part, that was my biggest issue during my first few rounds, the pure and utter chaos of the game along with no idea where to go and what to do... But then again I come from a breed of gamers that wants to learn from mistakes and when things get though, instead of ragequiting back to farm/gorgeville
^along with awesome peeps who knew the game and taught me, I stepped into the realm of shooting gun and scaling walls like a professional amateur