NS2 "Mentors" for Rookies
MuckyMcFly
Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
On TF2 they have the ability to become a mentor, to help people learn the game/classes. This would be a good program for NS2 on rookie servers.
This is difficult since there is no right or wrong way to play NS2, but there is a "preferred" way.
There would need to a standard set of guide lines (community agreed) and could be shown in game with... A BADGE!!
This is difficult since there is no right or wrong way to play NS2, but there is a "preferred" way.
There would need to a standard set of guide lines (community agreed) and could be shown in game with... A BADGE!!
Comments
There was/is the by the community organized NS2 Mentor Steam group.
But i guess this thread is all about is integrating a mentor program in some way directly into the game as i already suggested it back in 2013.
Let's me say straight away i am totally for adding such a feature but there is one issue with it: Someone would have to actually maintain and moderate the mentor program and i fear in the end not enough veteran would volunteer to be mentors.
It is a good idea, but there are some practical problems that have to be addressed first. How does TF2 do it? Can we apply the same model?
"It seems you are walking down a corridor, press [forward key] to move forward and try to avoid walls and bends by moving your mouse in the direction you want to go" -would you like to know more
In all seriousness, I like the idea. Could help during the green green days of sales?
It would be worthwhile gathering all server operators to host a "rookie evening" for couple of hours once or twice a week?
I think if a casual approach was taken to it I'd be happy to take part as I know not everyone would be available to mentor every week at a specific time
My guess would be to become a mentor, you have to be vetted and approved by other mentors... possibly only other mentors of an upper-echelon (eg brand-new mentors couldn't immediately turn around and give the badge to all their friends, etc etc.)
I've thought about having a feature like this in-game, it'd be a HUGE help in teaching rookies. I picture this as being like a "coaching" mode, where the "coach/mentor" is in first person spec on one or more players ONLY (eg no switching to some other player upon death, it'd jump back to your "student"), and only they could hear your voice chat.
I'd also recommend that only players who have completed the tutorials be eligible for this -- we don't want to burn out our mentors by having them teach rookies how to open their map, or buy a welder, for example.
so like an overwatch for rookies but live
Before that, I think we should properly detail what the program is supposed to be like beyond the current vague notion of recruiting people to teach rookies. Why would you assume that rookies would have problems with mentors in the first place?
I think it is a good idea, I just don 't know how realistic it can be.
Out of the maybe 500 people who play regularly, how many would be willing to be a mentor? What will the demand be like for the mentors? Will there be a flood of rookies, or inexperienced players, seeking out them? How will they find out about the "program"? How exactly will these mentors train? How are they chosen? If they are not good mentors, because that will happen eventually, how are they removed?
These are just some of the questions that need answered.
Having designated mentors will do nothing more. I even give advice to green names about wall jumping skulks and bhopping fades before they play because of how intuitive it is not. This also seems like a recipe for disaster comme la commander badge which just got people to jump in without regards for actually doing well. A lot of misinformation will be spread. We already had a massive problem with the dogma of fast PG and we're still suffering from random skulk plays and lack of res biting.
I disagree with there being "no wrong way" to play ns2. There are plenty of inefficient and bad decisions to be made to ruin the experience for other players from recycling IPs, going fast PGs, and yolo'ing skulks on the ground into a wall of bullets. Remember that this game is incredibly team based; if you're having noobs teach noobs to play to a point where they think what they are doing is right (when it isn't), you're going to massively dilute the skill of the player base AND THUS YOUR OWN TEAMMATES WILL SUCK BALLS TOO.
You already see it with 400 hour commanders saying "uhh I know how to play thx" and then continue to build fast PGs on tech points before 2nd + 3rd CC with observatories on each, and then use the old victim card of "oh yeah blame the commander like you always do when you couldn't hold the PGs!!". Of course I'm going to bloody blame the commander when I'm 0-0 vs fades, and just because you've played 400 hours doesn't mean you fully understand the game! But when people are getting taught "officially" I imagine they will be more entrenched in these bad ideas making it harder for them to improve. This is speculation mind you...
TL;DR People don't ask for much help anyway. And noobs teaching noobs will make more noob teammates instead of good teammates, and do you really want worse teammates?
Oh, alright. I'm curious as to what problems you would have with a cashier though, what with cash registers and barcodes and debit/credit cards.
As long new players "learning" the game on an 42 slot server, all these upcoming tutorials, mentor programs or whatever will be useless.
Cause players learning the game on a server that size in the wrong way anyway.
Not only the playerammount going down slowly but steady the quality of the players going down aswell.
NS2 has everything a good esport title need, but the sad truth is that the devs didnt had enough attention about that.
- Get rid of these >24 slot servers (20 slots should be the official maximum)
- Make real rookie servers with access for mentors + a free week on steam + autoban for people with an KDR over 30 on these servers (im sure a real rookie cant have an kdr like that)
- Introduce a goal based tutorial where you teach basic skulkmovement for example (sneak to an standing marine, if he can hear you you must restart the "mission")
- Introduce Skill based servers based on ELO, KDR or whatever but not on hive score only (Low, med, high)
- In CS:Go the clanplayers are popstars, in NS2 they are "the cancer". Introduce a channel where players can watch clanmatches and clanplayers can give them tips inside the game.
- ...
All these things never happened.
And i think this is one of the reasons beside performance the game losing players nonstop.
A doctor may be a better example to the kind of service a supposed mentor might give.
I've been added to steam in the past by rookies asking information and guidance.
Many also ask in game.
Many more ignore everything you say, but that's just how it is.
As for who is qualified, there is a whole can of worms. Not only is there the question of if someone is capable of explaining and having the patience to do so.
Also comes the question.. what skill does the mentor need to mentor? In my opinion anyone with enough hours under belt should, in theory, be able to explain the basics to rookies.
Sure a prem div player may explain more but.. does a rookie truly need that already? (it wont hurt, but all im saying is that we should all know mere basics)
It increases player retention from reducing initial frustrations and the learning curve.
Let the nuanced details in how to play properly come about much later on by playing with more advanced players where they will pick up good habits.
@BeigeAlert 's method of allowing a mentor to 1st person ONLY the rookie and voicecomm ONLY to them seems to be the best way.
As far as getting qualified mentors, recorded hive time/comp division and approval from at least one existing mentor should be a good enough qualifier. Yes, everyone has different methods of playing, and yes some mentors will give advice that other mentors would see as "wrong", but the idea (i think) is not to make cookie-cutter players, but rather get the player clued into the important things, like resbiting, positioning, etc. so that they can go learn how THEY prefer to play.
The other difficult side of this idea is actually getting new players to USE this system. The optimistic part of me says "A big button and banner at the main menu should be good enough!", but I know thats not true. The rookies, just like the mentors, will need an incentive to use this system. Maybe a shoulder decal as a "graduation gift" somehow?
Ideally this system would not be manually controlled as having one person/group in charge of assigning and removing "mentor" status, granting awards/badges, as well as policing abuse (mentors would have to be allowed on rookie-only servers) would be very tiring and would cause the program to die quickly imo.
Aside from how hard its going to be, this might be the single best idea to improve both player retention and overall game quality! People want to stay and have better games if they know what they are doing!
I think Wob is more concerned with mentors giving poor advice and cause rookies to pick up bad habits. This can be hard to change as it is taught to them, so they have the idea that it is the "right" way.
I don't think it will be that much of a problem if mentors are properly vetted and there are proper guidelines to adhere to, but of course, we still have no idea how this mentor program is going to work, and are just building our arguments around our own preconceptions and are likely talking pass each other.
Gee I'm disappointed that this isn't already happening without the mentor ego boost. I always tell greens how to walljump and bhop fades because these are important and unintuitive mechanics. Everyone should be doing this without the need for a mentor badge or "official" status because it improves your teammates so you have a better chance to win, and it makes your opponents stronger to give you a better challenge.
Any teaching beyond basic mechanics should only be given by a select few. I was mainly concerned by some of the people posting here who said it would be a good idea (who I then assumed thought that they themselves would make good mentors). I know name and shame is off limits, but if name and praise is allowed, I'd happily post some EU names I think would make fantastic/adequate mentors.
In addition to the program, I think a separate forum should be made where ONLY questions posed to mentors can be placed as a thread title, then anyone can chip in to answer the questions. This won't just benefit the people asking those questions but the mentors themselves who have a chance to learn from better people (and I'd hope the mentors would be open minded enough to accept being taught if they themselves are going to be teaching.)
That's a bold claim IronHorse. I don't know that it would have any of those effects.
I don't agree with the people who say that it would make new players with bad habits either. People will catch bad habits with or without the help from 'bad mentors'. Simply by playing with or against bad players, you will catch bad habits.
But I expect, that most of the people who want to teach, will do it without a badge anyway.
All in all, I'm very skeptical that this program would even be worth the effort. The cdt are volunteers, so I don't want to pretend to dictate what you can and cannot spend your time on. I just don't think it will have the desired effects that you guys expect.
If by playing with/against bad players gives you bad habits, surely being taught by bad players is just going to exacerbate this.
SPECULATION: They might also fall into the trap of thinking that because someone "official" said something (if it is bad) that that is the gospel and then conclude the game mechanics are imbalanced / weak instead of trying something else/listening to someone else; thus making them stay bad.
Good mentors on the other hand only have so much influence depending on the motivation and attitude of the mentee. People always say that this game isn't CoD and a yolo-rambo shoot 'em up, but that it is a team game etc etc which is all just bull-sh/t. What this game really requires, as a player, is a certain way of thinking. One that is all about decisions, opportunity cost, efficiency, and anticipation. This game is all about thinking one/two/three steps ahead, not just as simple as a flow chart of "go into next room, check corners, shoot aliens, go into next room" and too few people think like this, not just in our player base, but just generally in the world. You go to CSGO casual servers and you just see absolutely moronic plays of people who are completely oblivious that the team on the other side of the map just got wiped out. DOTA players not seeing pings on maps and CARE FOR GANK messages.
Again really TL;DR - people are too stupid to think for themselves, that mentors won't be able to properly facilitate the passing on of knowledge beyond basic mechanics.
Then the mentors can sign up for which topics they're willing to teach.
Now the rookie has an option to focus on specific facet of their play and can get lessons from multiple people so they don't get the negative bias being discussed here (which I don't think is possible anyway, people will wind up deciding their own way to play)
Personally I know I would be a bad mentor overall, and wouldn't really want to do it, buy I could definitely teach specific things like:
Solo laneblocking. Biting an RT without taking damage, killing skulks on RTs, positioning for a siege, fending off a lerk, successfully escaping two lerks. Stuff like that.
Give them badges when their lessons been approved by a mentor in all subcategories of marines aliens or commanding.
There's still room then for the mentorimg described above. But I doubt theirs enough players for people to find someone available at the times they need all the time
Hmmm. It's the same. You just described from the other side, or quoted one of the many solution suggested in these forums.
You need both teachers & student, Jedi & Padawan, Mentor & recruits... So i don't understand the vote "don't care". This makes no sense.
There are plenty of people I know that would be willing to answer questions, or to help out in general. people like Wob for example are open to answer any questions and he gives tips in game but the thing is, no one ever asks the questions. When we want to help, 90% of the time we have to take the initiative to try and get them to learn. Most people ignore it tho.
Currently we have the training nights setup on Sunday and Wednesday for the newcomer tournament. We can maybe set up something like that for rookies that are willing to learn the game. Just need the people for the coaching and the publicity to make it happen, since getting servers is the easy part.
My vote has nothing to do with that comment. I really don'y care about the mentor system, just saying I would enjoy teaching SOME topics, but not be willing to be someones mentor