This has me puzzled..
Sugarrnspice
Canada Join Date: 2015-10-28 Member: 208808Members
Canada Join Date: 2015-10-28 Member: 208808Members
Hey Ns2 peeps! Big fan of the game and excited to play again soon when my internet can handle it.
Big rant here, sorry for the wall of text, i just HAVE to know ^^
-All Special Damage Types affect Armor the same way as the Normal basic damage type, unless otherwise specified in the conditions column.-
I want to make it clear I am aware of this aspect of special damage.
My confusion all started when I was looking at the wiki and noticed the nerve gas grenades, which are a "special" type of dmg deal 50 damage per second(to armor, duh). I wasn't sure if this was maybe treated as normal dmg. Ok, simple enough, a quick grenade test showed 50DPS adding up to 500-600 dmg to an armored structure, lingering effect I guess, easy peazy.
The mechanic is a simple one but the wording could be construed in a confusing way: Vs. Kharaa = 100% damage to armor only
"to armor only" does indeed indicate it is "otherwise specified" but isnt clear.
1. I understand that structural damage, while doing a blanket 200% dmg to structures, is still treated as "normal" when in regards to armor, but I'm not sure.
2. flamethrower does 250% to flammable so 250 dps as simple example, is that 250 still mitigated as "normal" dmg to a hydra's armor?
3. Let's say a gorge's bile bomb is doing 100DPS. Bile does 30% to exo HP/armor, the ingame dmg is 30dps. but what about a structure health/armor(deals full 100%), 100DPS total? and does the gorge see 100 on his screen?
hoping someone can clarify generally and aswell, explain if dmg absorbed by armor is supposed to show up in the number seen on the attacker's screen.
Which leads me to the meat of my question here..
Onto a Hive or RT with armor, my LMG@ 10 dmg per shot x 50 reads 500 per clip. WIthout any armor, same 500 shows up. This is the same with the axe and I assume all normal types of dmg.
Now, the pistol shows 16 to armored and 25 when armor is gone. the game code obviously has a special place for "light" attacks. and this confused me because the LMG showing 500 either way should reflect 500 EHP (effective health points) so I would expect, despite the 4 dmg absorb per 1 armor on light relative to 2 dmg per armor, the EHP would still be and show as 25 per shot for pistol.
Very possibly wrong here but I currently am led to believe that 30% of dmg is taken by healthpool while 70% is armored/mitigated and the two numbers added for ""actual"" dmg.( i say this lightly as EHP is far more relevant IMO)
example with one pistol shot on armored target
health-25x.3=7.5
armor-25x.7=4.375
totalling: 11.875
doesn't match my ingame number of 16 dmg per shot so i've got something wrong.
testing heavy damage as exo, a oneminigun to overheat burst does 1012 to unarmored hive, but reads somewhere around 1150 on armored. EHP should certainly rise as 1000heavy dmg does more EHP to armor than normal dmg which I assume the game treats as default, so this makes sense but I would imagine a much greater increase if the number shown is indeed EHP(like 2000+(assuming 100% armor absorb, which I know it isn't)). something I cannot explain.
I also tested the punching structural dmg which reads 50 on egg, 100 on cyst(no armor) and 100 on armored RT- the number shown therefore must be EHP??
Searching further, I went to the other easily tested source of light damage; I sandboxed as fade and found my basic attacks on armored RT indicate 22 apeice and show the full 75 when it's armor is depleted. this only added to my confusion as 25/16 for pistol is not anywhere near the relative reduction of 75/22.
**edit, running the numbers,seeing 22 means roughly 82%(18 dmg in this case) is mitigated by armor at a 4-1 ratio leaving 3 dmg for "health" dmg. This still does not match the pistol in relative numbers. perhaps different for melee/range??**
insight good people of NS2?
Thanks for reading
Big rant here, sorry for the wall of text, i just HAVE to know ^^
-All Special Damage Types affect Armor the same way as the Normal basic damage type, unless otherwise specified in the conditions column.-
I want to make it clear I am aware of this aspect of special damage.
My confusion all started when I was looking at the wiki and noticed the nerve gas grenades, which are a "special" type of dmg deal 50 damage per second(to armor, duh). I wasn't sure if this was maybe treated as normal dmg. Ok, simple enough, a quick grenade test showed 50DPS adding up to 500-600 dmg to an armored structure, lingering effect I guess, easy peazy.
The mechanic is a simple one but the wording could be construed in a confusing way: Vs. Kharaa = 100% damage to armor only
"to armor only" does indeed indicate it is "otherwise specified" but isnt clear.
1. I understand that structural damage, while doing a blanket 200% dmg to structures, is still treated as "normal" when in regards to armor, but I'm not sure.
2. flamethrower does 250% to flammable so 250 dps as simple example, is that 250 still mitigated as "normal" dmg to a hydra's armor?
3. Let's say a gorge's bile bomb is doing 100DPS. Bile does 30% to exo HP/armor, the ingame dmg is 30dps. but what about a structure health/armor(deals full 100%), 100DPS total? and does the gorge see 100 on his screen?
hoping someone can clarify generally and aswell, explain if dmg absorbed by armor is supposed to show up in the number seen on the attacker's screen.
Which leads me to the meat of my question here..
Onto a Hive or RT with armor, my LMG@ 10 dmg per shot x 50 reads 500 per clip. WIthout any armor, same 500 shows up. This is the same with the axe and I assume all normal types of dmg.
Now, the pistol shows 16 to armored and 25 when armor is gone. the game code obviously has a special place for "light" attacks. and this confused me because the LMG showing 500 either way should reflect 500 EHP (effective health points) so I would expect, despite the 4 dmg absorb per 1 armor on light relative to 2 dmg per armor, the EHP would still be and show as 25 per shot for pistol.
Very possibly wrong here but I currently am led to believe that 30% of dmg is taken by healthpool while 70% is armored/mitigated and the two numbers added for ""actual"" dmg.( i say this lightly as EHP is far more relevant IMO)
example with one pistol shot on armored target
health-25x.3=7.5
armor-25x.7=4.375
totalling: 11.875
doesn't match my ingame number of 16 dmg per shot so i've got something wrong.
testing heavy damage as exo, a oneminigun to overheat burst does 1012 to unarmored hive, but reads somewhere around 1150 on armored. EHP should certainly rise as 1000heavy dmg does more EHP to armor than normal dmg which I assume the game treats as default, so this makes sense but I would imagine a much greater increase if the number shown is indeed EHP(like 2000+(assuming 100% armor absorb, which I know it isn't)). something I cannot explain.
I also tested the punching structural dmg which reads 50 on egg, 100 on cyst(no armor) and 100 on armored RT- the number shown therefore must be EHP??
Searching further, I went to the other easily tested source of light damage; I sandboxed as fade and found my basic attacks on armored RT indicate 22 apeice and show the full 75 when it's armor is depleted. this only added to my confusion as 25/16 for pistol is not anywhere near the relative reduction of 75/22.
**edit, running the numbers,seeing 22 means roughly 82%(18 dmg in this case) is mitigated by armor at a 4-1 ratio leaving 3 dmg for "health" dmg. This still does not match the pistol in relative numbers. perhaps different for melee/range??**
insight good people of NS2?
Thanks for reading
Comments
1 armor point is essentially 2 hp.
So if you are using lmg at the beginning of the game thats why it says you did 90-91 dmg to a skulk at the start of the game to kill it. Because it is calculating the armor damage. And i think if you use your pistol on the skulk it will read 116 total damage i could be wrong i dont remember.
Hopefully this answers one your questions
Ive no idea what exos do in terms of damage type because i think ive used a total of 3 exos in 3k hours of play.
And i believe heavy damage just negates armor, i think unless i heard wrong from samus which wont be the first time that has happened.
3:37 PM : "Light damage: reduced vs. armor",
"Heavy damage: extra vs. armor",
"Puncture damage: extra vs. players",
"Structural damage: Double vs. structures",
"StructuralHeavy damage: Double vs. structures and double vs. armor",
"Gas damage: affects breathing targets only",
"NerveGas damage: affects biological units, player will take only armor damage",
"Structures only: Doesn't damage players or AI units",
"Falling damage: Ignores armor for humans, no damage for aliens",
"Door: Can also affect Doors",
"Corrode damage: Damage structures or armor only for non structures",
"Armor damage: Will never reduce health",
"StructuresOnlyLight: Damages structures only, light damage.",
"Splash: same as structures only but always affects ARCs (friendly fire).",
"Spreading: Does less damage against small targets.",
"GrenadeLauncher: Double structure damage, 20% reduction in player damage",
There is also pierce damage type which stab and the railgun use which also just goes through armor.
These are all the active damage types in NS2. I think, i mean thats whats in the lua code.
P.S. thanks zavaro
I thought SG's were light damage, but maybe I am remembering that from beta ns2.
Some of those damages I have never heard of. Falling damage is not in ns2, afaik.
And there is no gas damage, just nerve gas
The important parts of the post are:
Rifle draws 500 ehp damage to any target
"Now, the pistol shows 16 to armored and 25 when armor is gone"
Seems like a bug? All weapons should show ehp damage as far as I'm aware.
Gas damage is spores, silly. And fall damage isn't implemented, but it's still got some code for it. Same thing with door damage.
To start, I understand that the game does round some numbers. If I had an attack that, per hit, deals 3 damage "normal" and shoot an armored target(exo), which absorbs 2 per point of armor, is the exo left with -2 points of armor or just -1? In this case, I would assume 2 as 1.5EHP rounds up, but this example is just to show there is rounding as we will see.( and more with light dmg)
I like showing all my math but it leads to very longish posts, please bear with me
1. The wiki indicates all special dmg is treated as normal when in regards to armor. I find this to be true in all cases and I cannot find a single example of an exception "where it has been otherwise specified"
To test for myself, I tossed a nerve grenade at hive, culminating 585 damage. I then went alien and jumped in the hive to see:
6000/6000 (all structures were 100% mature when testing)
1108/1400
This is a difference of 292 armor( proving it is treated as normal type dmg) or 584 EHP=585 shown to attacker
In short, whether 30%, 100%, or 200%, all special types, from what I can tell, treat armor as normal dmg- Can someone show me the exception?
2. Secondly, as meatmachine touched on, the number you see when damaging an armored unit is indeed EHP(which is calculated with normal armor being the default) The example I gave for the pistol was wrong in one area, I failed to multiply the mitigated number by 4 to account for "light" dmg numbers. Corrected, it looks like this:
pistol shot=25 output light dmg
health-25x30%=7.5
armor-25x70%=4.375 **multiply 4.375 by 4 to get 17.5**
now totaling: 25 output damage
given that 2:1 is default, the game instead multiplies(or divides/mitigates) by 2 and the EHP looks more like this:
health-25x.3=7.5
armor-25x.7=4.375 **multiply 4.375 by 2 to get 8.75**
now totaling: 16(.25) EHP as we see ingame
This explains why 500 for LMG is not reliant on armor while 16/25 pistol is.
My ingame test, where I shot an RT with one pistol bullet:
2293/2300--7
316/320----4(x2 as per normal armor reduc)
7+(4x2) = 15(16) EHP as we see ingame
to get back to our original 25 dmg output using these numbers:
2293/2300--7
316/320----4(x4 as per light armor reduc)
7+(4x4)=23(25) output after rounding I assume.
On my OP, another point I wasn't 100% on was the question: exactly how much, in %, is absorbed by armor and how much by direct HP?
the answer is indeed 70/30 with the exception from my tests being the fade swipe.
Some examples quickly proved this:
I started by punching a hive with exo=100 dmg
Hive left at:
5970/6000--30
1365/1400--35
Again, EHP shown is calculated at x2 for armor so:
30+(35x2)=100
30%+70%=100%
The LMG clip into Hive:
5850/6000--150
1225/1400--175
150+(175x2)=500
30%+70%=100%
Simply, the 70/30 model is correct and this is no longer a point of confusion except where fade swipe is involved
3. My third predicament was the fade swipe not following the light damage model:
Ingame test on RT:
22 dmg shows per swing
2393/2400--7
1043/1050--7
7+(7x2)=21(22) EHP as expected
this 7 dmg hp and 7 missing armor per hit is seen on all structures i tested
to retrace back to an unarmored 75 dmg as we see ingame, we reverse the 4:1 light armor but find:
2393/2400--7
1043/1050--7
7+(7x4)=35
using this math, this 35 should instead somehow be 75 as we see ingame. Can anyone explain this?
Another approach would be 16/25=0.64
while we see 22/75=0.29
clearly, different math is being applied
Rather obscure pieces of information that I'm fishing for but any input is great
Thanks all!
And @IronHorse you cant argue the actual code :P because all those types i put in my post. zavaro copy pasted from the code lol.
1. solved-basically the wording on the wiki should be updated was my conclusion
2. solved- the 70%/30% model works in almost all cases except in..
3. still unsure- 75 fade swipe damage being light should look like this:
swipex1=75 output in light dmg (based on wiki -damage types page- which is almost 2 years out of date and likely the cause of this issue)
using the 70/30 model as I assume is baseline for armor/health in damage distribution, regardless of light/heavy or normal
75x30%or 0.3=22.5 in direct damage to target hp. we add this with..
75x70%or 0.7=52.5 but because it is light vs armor, we divide by 4 to get roughly 13
22.5+(13x2)=48.5 EHP, not 22 as seen ingame
If we follow the model of other light damage attacks vs armored(pistol)
Against unarmored target, I would expect to "see" 75 dmg (which we do see)
Against armor, I would expect 22.5+13 armor(26EHP) (so each swipe should show up as 49EHP. Rather, the EHP per swing is shown ingame at 22)
To conclude, we expect on an armored RT after one hit from a fade swipe, to be damaged 22.5(23) hp and 13 armor, given the base dmg as 75. This is not the case and indicates a discrepancy
I do find it interesting that 30% of a fade's 75 light damage swipe is roughly the number shown when attacking, 22.
Secondly there are quiet a few more damage types than light, heavy and normal:
The last type is used for all fade attacks. Against structures with armor the relation 1:9 is used to split up the damage.
That means floor(75 * 0.9 / 9) = floor(7.5) = 7 damage is dealt to the structure's armor and floor(75*0.1) = 7 damage are dealt to the hp.
So why does 22 eHP damage get displayed?
That's simple because the damage counter UI is not really aware of the given damage type and treats is like the normal type with the 2:1 relation which leads to floor(2 * 7.5 + 7.5) = 22
In conclusion NS2 just has too many different damage types and you are right about the fact that the damage counter should be aware of the fade damage type as well.
However i hope my explanation answers your question.
Indeed the 22 ingame eHP is acurate then with the proper numbers
hope the wiki gets updated
I imagine though vs marine with armor, it is treated as light with the 7/3 and 4:1 ratios?
which should mean one swipe would deal 48.5 eHP?
or perhaps it is normal dmg now, vs marines
Not really. Damagetypes are still super efficient because they are called on repeatedly by so many things you wouldn't expect. Lots of things you wouldn't expect share the same damagetype, such as bile bomb and whips. Each lifeform has at least two modes of attack, and eight weapons on marines some sharing damage types and others not. There is also cysting damage, as well as arcs, turrets, whips and hydras, some of which share damage types.
Not to mention, there's at least two deprecated types in there which are never called on because those features were not implemented. They're in there for legacy reasons and also in case modders want them. DOOOOOOORSSSS
Note that kMineDamageType seems unused though... ; and I can't recall spitting for less than 30 damage (but I rarely gorge).
Any serious gorge will tell you going toe to toe with a marine getting meds or with armor is Sisyphean.
But you feel so damn badass when you win an engagement with a marine getting medded.
You've been saying this for awhile now, but I think its dishonest to keep claiming that 5 spits will kill an a0 marine. Without parasites/healspray, he still will be left with 10hp.