World size and levels

BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
One of the main disadvantages of not using procedural map generation is that the maps are finite in size. This raises a few questions in my mind, and until now I haven't seen anything particularly definitive on this topic

How large will each of the handcrafted open world pieces be?
Will they fit together to create a huge world or will it consist of multiple smaller levels?
How far and deep can we actually go?
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Comments

  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    Hopefully any crafted world will be designed like plants (round and round we go)
    So if you keep sailing in 1 direction, you will end up in the same place, eventually.
    :3
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    edited October 2014
    NOTE: This is not a promise, only our current direction. You should not base your buying decisions on this.
    Right now the *goal* is about 4km on a side and 2km deep. So there will be a top layer as well as some underground parts (such as huge underground caverns and tunnels. Think Mammoth Cave).
  • BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
    Mammoth cave? *Googles* My goodness, this will be amazing.

    What happens when we reach the edge of the map? Are there invisible walls, does it wrap around or something else entirely?
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    Invis walls is definitely the last thing we wanna do. Right now, you just hit huge cliffs. Wrap around is trickier to do, and may not be desirable for game play reasons. We're open to other ideas of course!
  • KendallKendall Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14402Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
    Agreed invisible walls are the worst of game map constraints, cliffs work ok though sometimes having a few openings that do loop around makes it easier to program the 'teleport' and yet feel more open. Certainly understand it not working for gameplay reasons or future expansion purposes though.
  • trisdinotrisdino Denmark Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159590Members
    In a diving game, invisible walls are probably the single most confusing barrier in existence, because if you are in an area where you cannot see the sea floor, you will not even realize that you are no longer moving. I think something like a strong current pushing you back would probably be preferable, or maybe you reach the coast.
  • BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
    I would place the entire map on a plateau. You can go deeper if you like, but before long your sub will start creaking, the glass will crack, and your submarine will collapse under the pressure.
  • trisdinotrisdino Denmark Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159590Members
    The problem with that idea is that, again, it would be very confusing. I am sure there will be other reasons for your submarine to start creaking, and having that effect occur once you pass an invisible field just seems like it would cause a lot of confusion and frustration.
  • BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
    No, not an invisible field. Just a natural part of the pressure based gameplay. As you get deeper and deeper the pressure increases until your submarine begins to have difficulty handling the external force. This happens whether you are where you are meant to be or not.

    As the level is on an underwater plateau, once you left the level boundaries the sea floor would drop away rapidly as you traveled outwards. If you descended too far, your submarine would find itself unable to take the immense pressure and crack. Of course, if you stayed near the surface you could continue indefinitely or until you reached another of the defined areas, which would be seen as another plateau.

    This would solve the problems of having level boundaries and also eliminate the need to load separate 'Levels'. This is because each of the handcrafted areas would be their own little underwater environment, also making it incredibly easy to add new environments to the randomly generated mix at world generation.

    If you need me to draw a diagram, I can.
  • trisdinotrisdino Denmark Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159590Members
    I understand that, and if we are just talking about going deeper, it makes sense.

    This leaves us with the issue of how to deal with people being at the surface. As you said, then they would be able to go on forever. The problem with this is, that may not be a good option. First off, one would except animals to live in this area, so should there be creatures constantly generated into infinite? The concept of other plateaus you could eventually reach is intriguing, but may be difficult to code. Perhaps a level of procedural generation could fix it, but again, that is extra work.

    All solutions offer new issues, and I am not fundamentally against your suggestion, hell, I think it is one of the better ones, I just also do not think it solves many of the bigger problems. What is needed is a solution that works in all three dimensions, not just going forward or down.
  • BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
    They already have the basic code for procedural generation. There would be some sea creatures, but not as many as there would be near the levels - you'd mainly have the equivalent of marlin, tuna and other fast, big fish. Maybe some whales and dolphins or the like - just enough to keep it interesting.

    As for infinite creatures? Procedural generation would fix that nicely, and you'd hit another plateau before too long anyway unless you were avoiding the levels intentionally.
  • NiklasdiverNiklasdiver Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146675Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2014
    Wait, so will it be randomly generated but limited in size (like Sir, you are being Hunted)? Or will it be a single designed environment.
  • BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
    I envisioned the designed environments placed on procedurally generated plateaus.
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
    edited October 2014
    I want to see more areas blocked off by very dangerous creatures or terrain (like active volcanos). As you enter these foreboding areas, they are so obviously death traps that nobody in their right mind would venture in too far. Of course, if they do, the game obliges them, with a believable death.
  • NiklasdiverNiklasdiver Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146675Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Didn't they initially plan to have worlds randomly generated?
  • Sir_zinoSir_zino England Join Date: 2014-10-09 Member: 198901Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Didn't they initially plan to have worlds randomly generated?

    Yes but they changed it to make the world look nice.
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    Sir_zino wrote: »
    Didn't they initially plan to have worlds randomly generated?

    Yes but they changed it to make the world look nice.

    Yeah when you do procedural gen, there are trade offs between the look of the world and the complexity of it. The "tiles over plateaus" approach is exactly what we did for the PAX demo, but that results in a fairly limited variety of spaces. Namely....just tiles over plateaus. For 2D games like Diablo and Path of Exile and Spelunky, this is fine. Even for 3D but heightmap-terrain games, such as Sir You Are Being Hunted, this is fine. But for us, we are fully 3D with full freedom of vertical movement, so we wanted more interesting, truly 3D spaces. We couldn't figure out how to do this without sacrificing visual look (which is the sacrifice that Minecraft makes).

    Come Oct 31st, I hope you'll find that the kind of spaces we have handcrafted were worth this change.
  • KendallKendall Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14402Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
    Looking forward to giving it a try!
  • BandersaurBandersaur Australia Join Date: 2014-10-25 Member: 199120Members
    I... can't... wait!
  • martymarty Edmonton AB Join Date: 2015-11-02 Member: 208903Members
    :) I personally have one solid belief that if this is an open exploration type game then you need to expand the size by at least double of what you have . If you want a successfully full amazing experience it needs to be very vast .
    Any of my personal favorite open world games were for example fallout ,or skyrim which are excellent examples of an open heavily detailed well designed game.
    If you dont supply the gamer with enough content then it can be a disapointment finding out the game only has short gameplay hours, thats kinda the whole point of open world games .
  • martymarty Edmonton AB Join Date: 2015-11-02 Member: 208903Members
    And that doesnt mean it has to be done off the get go , perhaps in a later large update you can add to the world , its been done in lots of other older games.
  • gd80gd80 Join Date: 2015-11-01 Member: 208892Members
    edited November 2015
    And what about to procedurally generate smth like simple biomes or just "underwater desert" (with simple decorations and caves) around the main map, beyond the borders of it? This will just add some advantages of procedural generation without any loss in quality for handmade main map.
  • crane476crane476 United States, Tx Join Date: 2015-08-07 Member: 206850Members
    marty wrote: »
    :) I personally have one solid belief that if this is an open exploration type game then you need to expand the size by at least double of what you have . If you want a successfully full amazing experience it needs to be very vast .
    Any of my personal favorite open world games were for example fallout ,or skyrim which are excellent examples of an open heavily detailed well designed game.
    If you dont supply the gamer with enough content then it can be a disapointment finding out the game only has short gameplay hours, thats kinda the whole point of open world games .

    1. The map isn't finished yet so its going to get bigger. I don't remember where I saw it, but I remember seeing that the map is only like 60% complete.
    gd80 wrote: »
    And what about to procedurally generate smth like simple biomes or just "underwater desert" (with simple decorations and caves) around the main map, beyond the borders of it? This will just add some advantages of procedural generation without any loss in quality for handmade main map.

    2. Not that simple.

    3. You two necroed a post over a year old. Mods will be in here soon to lock it up.
  • MyrmMyrm Sweden Join Date: 2015-08-16 Member: 207210Members
    What's the proplem with contributing to an old post? If old posts are not meant to be raised, then they should be locked. Somebody just joining might see an old post and have something valid to say. I don't think people should be berated for posting on an open topic regardless of its age. How old is considered to be "necroing" anyway?
  • paradineparadine usa Join Date: 2015-09-18 Member: 208004Members
    Here is an idea:

    For the areas that your working on and have planned to place something in the future add a random biome to that area as a placeholder.

    For the space outside the map (where your not going to put anything) have that be procedural to give an almost infinite world (so that it is set at a depth average of 1-1.5km) and goes out 6km from the map edge then have a sudden cliff that comes up from the floor to about 10m above the surface (this will become the boundary marker). The procedural area could be done up so that once it is created then just like the way the save stores the changes to the map that you have already done while building/exploring it will also store the data for the outer area. To help the game remain as quick as it is I would also suggest that the map be done up so that all of the terrain be split into 2km x 2km x 2km sections that just touch (most systems run better with smaller but more objects than they do for 1 large object).
  • MyrmMyrm Sweden Join Date: 2015-08-16 Member: 207210Members
    It would be awesome to have an open world as big as Skyrim in Subnautica :smiley:
  • TIEbomber1967TIEbomber1967 California Join Date: 2015-09-23 Member: 208109Members
    A quick thanks to Myrm, I was going to post about this "necro thread" nonsense, but my post was a little angrier so I decided to not post it. Your post was nice and concise. If old threads bothered the developers (it is their website after all), they could easily make threads "drop off" the forum after a couple of months.
  • BloopBloop Germany Join Date: 2015-08-28 Member: 207553Members
    edited November 2015
    SteveRock wrote: »
    Right now the *goal* is about 4km on a side and 2km deep.

    @SteveRock

    =( I really thought the map would go much deeper than 2 km. I think deeper is more important than wider. 8 km depth would be great and thrilling!

    But what if we compromise to a cubic map of 4 x 4 x 4 km ??

    Hope you and the other Devs could reassess that suggestion.

    Does anyone else agree?

  • monai137monai137 france Join Date: 2015-11-03 Member: 208929Members
    edited November 2015
    A quick thanks to Myrm, I was going to post about this "necro thread" nonsense, but my post was a little angrier so I decided to not post it. Your post was nice and concise. If old threads bothered the developers (it is their website after all), they could easily make threads "drop off" the forum after a couple of months.
    Agree that'a all etuicoquesamsung coque samsung galaxy a8
  • blurbrerrrblurbrerrr Join Date: 2015-10-03 Member: 208281Members
    edited November 2015
    i have an idea, how bout they just put in an entity that kills in one hit when they pass a certain point, but before they are killed they hear disturbing sounds all around them and it gets louder then the player dies.
    or have the mysterious electromagnetic pulse take the player out.
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