I know this may not be the place to ask,but since we're talking about hitreg,can skulks bite you from the side of their mouths? or do you have to be looking directly at something?
Ok, @UncleCrunch. You and Ironhorse are not getting anywhere. Although it was humorous, Ironhorse did get a bit childish with his gif.
The toolset and debugging features you describe would be amazing. They would greatly benefit ns2. The sad truth is that no matter how correct you are, we are not going to get those tools. UWE has stated quite clearly they are interested in other things.
I know you don't like it. I don't like my 1988 honda either, but that also will not change anytime soon. There is only one thing left to do. That is work with the tools we do have. If all we have is duct tape and a few sticks then that is what we use. Same with the debugging toolsets we have.
Ironhorse has described to you how the UWE/CDT programmers want data to debug with. You are saying you are able to reproduce issues consistently. You seem to be very good finding bugs no one else can. Would you please share your abilities with the programmers by finding the bugs and sending them the data they want? It may not be all the data they need, but it is all they have to work with right now. Could you be that generous?
Will play again if next patch reads: "Fixed bad old days performance issues"
The same goes to you. No one else is reporting such problems. You are the only one. We can't reproduce your problems without your help. Could you be so kind as to help us find the problem? It would not even take too much of your time.
If you could be so kind to follow these instructions and make a thread in the tech support forums it would be extremely helpful.
Type "p_logall" without quotes in the console (~ key) whenever you want to begin recording in game (don't do this until you at least spawn in a round)
then you can p_endlog /or just wait for the round to end/ or map to change/ or just quit the game and it will end automatically.
Then navigate to your hidden folder
c:/users/YOU/appdata/roaming/natural selection 2/
And you will find your file, something *.plog
Zip it/ compress it.
Upload it to somewhere on the internet
Make a thread in the tech support forums, and put a link to your .plog file there.
This will give me a frame by frame analysis of what is going on, so try to pick a time when you can best reproduce your lowest performance like the 24 fps you said you get.
Don't record for longer than 30 minutes, and don't record for shorter than 5.
Include your techsupport.zip file with this compressed plog.
@UncleCrunch I am wondering if you are considering on using your skills and abilities to help debug ns2 now that the holidays are over?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
First time I used "Play now" it sends me to a server that required mods it didn't give me so I failed to connect, and the second time it sent me to a server that only allowed spectators above 7v7 so I had to disconnect from that as well.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Play now in general works really well.
If I compare the servers I get send to, to the server browser I can clearly see its a good choice.
There are only a few downsides on play now because it can not yet distinguish certain things.
* It does not know mod specslots, so you get dumped on a 7vs7 server which is past 14 players.
* It does not know mod skill filters, so you get send to servers kicking you for your skill lvl.
The mods which did not download are not a server issue, in theory. but a steam issue. The server admin can set a workshop backup server however but not all do.
That is not a problem with join now. You would experience the same if you connect to the server manually.
Are mods actually downloaded each time or is a hashsum check being done with the mods you already have (like in %appdata%/Natural Selection 2/workshop)? The later would make much more sense.
I think there is one thing happening in the video as well. If you shoot something, just before you die, you can get differences between client/server. Simply because for the server, you are already dead, even if on your screen you still life. the time window for this is quite short, but it can easily go as high as 300-400 ms, depending on your and your attackers ping.
Very true and the 279 update made that lag so horrendous in my personal experience that it is a joke for me to even bother playing as nothing connects while You get insta gibbed around corners. I would say it is closer to a .5 to a point .9 second lag with high ping. They really need to roll back the update or at least allow it to be manually rolled back so people that have issues can play the game they paid for or In some instances like myself, paid a ^%$#ing fortune for!
Replay the ones where you "hit" in slow motion and I think you'll find that you were really missing. If you're using NS2+, turn on "Server confirmed blood" to have 'better' feedback. Personally, I prefer client side feedback even though it shows false positives occassionaly.
You're right, on the second clip you can also see the bullet hit the ground behind the robotics factory after passing through the fade's shoulder. I've had other people explain this kind of thing with the whole "the end of your gun barrel is behind the alien's model, and you're kind of shooting behind them instead of at/through them" explanation, which is semi-believable with the way rendering things in a 3d space works.
However, that is not the case with the 1st, 3rd, and 4th clips.
I would try turning on "server confirmed blood" in NS2+, but wouldn't that just make it exactly the same as the beeps? Isn't that ignoring the issue? The game is giving the player feedback that they're getting hits when they're not... whether or not the shots are "legit" server-side means one of two things:
1. what the player is seeing is wrong and they aren't able to aim at something appropriately because what is being rendered on their screen is a lie.
2. what the server is receiving from the client is wrong
I get that the client is going to be different because you can't be perfect about the game state across every client every frame/tick, but if the client didn't think i was hitting, the blood wouldn't splatter...
I assume that the game is probably using a different algorithm unrelated to bullet physics for blood splatters, but then why use that at all if it's going to give the user false positives on hit detection?
Maybe this could be an option or a setting? Let people with computers that can handle it use a more taxing/advanced/accurate client-side algorithm for hit-box detection for blood splatters? Or maybe swap them on the fly if the FPS goes below a set number?
Relying on server-side calculation only for player feedback seems about on the same level as saying "I'm not having issues so it must not be happening." Obviously if the server doesn't think they're hits, they're not going to register as hits.
Is there anything else I can do here? I'll go ahead and give the server-validated blood splatters a shot and see how i like the feedback on it... could you explain this though? isn't that just going to only show the splatters if the reg went through? isn't that the same as the audio beep? Won't i still see the bullets hit the model but then just not beep/splatter?
@Pikum
1st clip - you were already dead, looks like a latency issue there
3rd clip - you were miles away when you bit, look at the first frame the bite animation starts
The other two clips look like your bullets practically skimmed the model, even a little network fuckery could cause this. I agree though that client side blood should ideally = server side damage but that may not be 100% possible all the time
1st clip - I think you're right, and I wondered that myself. I had another clip that i omitted before posting the video that was similar in that it was near-death, but I thought the delay on the audio on the first few hits was worth leaving this one in even if I was already dead for the shots at the end of the clip (never have been able to figure out an accurate count on those early hits).
3rd clip - you're right, the first bite after the parasite I was too far, but after lunging forward for the second bite, you hear the sound of the bite connecting with a "munch" sound and see a blood splatter, but there's no "beep" or reg. The 3rd bite did register, and obviously the 4th bite i was already dead even though the "munch" sound played
4th clip - you can clearly see 4 shots cause blood splatter while only one registers... You also cannot see the bullets hitting something behind like you can with what i discussed above in the second clip. saying it's a network issue is essentially proving my point that there are reg issues, unless you mean to say it's an issue with my internet connection and not the game's code, which I'm willing to accept if there's a solid way i can reproduce it consistently while others cannot. (any good way to do this?)
Any other thoughts here? if there's any more info i can provide, let me know... in the meantime I'm going to try to keep putting these together... that video was just one day after i got sick of everyone saying there's no hitreg issues
thanks for the comments so far!
Thank You for complaining about these known issues to them.. I hope it becomes more difficult for them to delude themselves into thinking they do not exist anymore. You are a Saint Pikum and my hero!
The problem is for wi-fi users..
Wired is for the pros and you get the best experience!
Unfortenly im a wi-fi user....
Saffron, get yourself a pair of "Powerline adapters" higher the speed the better, AV500 are a great start, I bought a pair last year and it's made life so much easier, just make sure your electrics are on the same circuit, ask your landlord or electrician if you don't know.
Very true and the 279 update made that lag so horrendous in my personal experience that it is a joke for me to even bother playing as nothing connects while You get insta gibbed around corners. I would say it is closer to a .5 to a point .9 second lag with high ping. They really need to roll back the update or at least allow it to be manually rolled back so people that have issues can play the game they paid for or In some instances like myself, paid a ^%$#ing fortune for! NS2 CDT is letting people down often. At least a quarter of the proposed changes to NS2 are game breaking and equally disgusting as their ability to give people features that they paid for years ago and were promised would always be in the next update for almost a full year by them.... Shadow Fade and Onos? Really Iron Horse, You say next update... Oh Alright.... Next update: OH really So it was pushed back until the next update... Oh I see........ Next Update: Seriously, where are the shadow Fade and Onos? Pushed back... I see.....Asking again is pointless. These people are unorganized and fail to meet even their own goals let alone those of the consumer base. Do not invest anymore money in this game until they decide to stop breaking it with updates like "Aim To P!sss off Paying Customers build 2.79" and the 2.77 $#!+mass build. They have said repeatedly they have no ability to do proper bug testing and hunting prior to launching an update on their own and want others to do their work for them at personal user cost of new hardware, software, and in my case internet bandwidth and speeds not even available where I live. These people are a sad joke whom ruined more than Just my Christmas. They ruined NS2, the only multiplayer game I actually loved. </3 Shame on You guys for ruining the game for so many people this last update and disregarding all the people whom complained. I have heard more complaints about 2.79 than I did that one update that red plugged servers constantly. That is really sad.(watch as they pretend I am lying or stay in denial about the issues worsening for several people)and they wonder why so many people do not even bother sending complaints directly to them anymore.. HA! People are sick of having their time wasted. ( Let's see if they deny Your claim as to have witnessed such lag now Asraniel! ) CDT = (C)ondescending (D)edicated (T)ime-wasters! ( mainly Iron Horse, worst PR rep in history)
1. I do believe you are the only individual who has complained of the client experience being worse this patch. (I would know, I track it all between emails and all tech support forums)
2. I do not believe anyone on the CDT nor PDT (since you don't seem to know that exists) has disregarded any user but yourself* - so link me it if that's not just a lie.
All I've seen is members give out advice on how to provide useful data if you are seeing something we are unable to reproduce.
If that offends you so much, then you either need to grow a tougher skin or give up on your poor attempt at social interaction altogether.
*because the server you administrate (idk who thought giving you that was a good idea) was running stolen code and actually had broken gameplay (which I assisted the owner in resolving) due to the custom mods. Not really surprising if that's your only sample..
I don't know why you were so aggravated or what past drama has occurred between you and the CDT for you to have such a vendetta, but what I said in your server was exactly what I've said in here: That you have tools at your disposal to capture what we cannot reproduce and what no one else has reported.
You have mentioned a slew of issues that are just not reported by anyone else... and since we cannot fix something we cannot reproduce, we truly do need the data from you to do so. No one (including myself) has denied that you are experiencing issues... I am sure that you are, given the degree of vitriol you've expressed and the state of that server's custom mods*. I realize this is an inconvenience for you, but simply put, our hands are tied if you are unable to provide us with useful data.
* I play on any US server available, and that includes servers that may have issues. Why? Because this is a great way for me to attempt to reproduce issues that people like yourself experience. Also, don't forget how I assisted the server owner with that custom mod bug and provided instructions on how to acquire measurable data for NS2+ performance on his server - not exactly the behavior of someone who dislikes and avoids something. I will say that I typically leave when I see you join the server, though, as I do not enjoy your aggressive behavior or the drama; I just don't want to experience that when I play NS2.
As for providing inaccurate information regarding future builds.. I do apologize if that's occurred, but I can only ever comment about what's posted publicly on the current trello board at the time, and as always everything is subject to change unfortunately.
Edit: I am not a PR rep or any sort of "ambassador" fyi.. I am a playtesting lead and assist with technical support issues.
and if your issue is with me specifically and not the CDT, you might want to change the rules of your server's giveaway
Unfortunately, he is part of the new trend of unreadable formatting and punctuation on the forums. Apparently, random ellipses and weird punctuation is contagious. I'm sorry/disappointed that we lost you too.
Pretty hard to Link You what You said in game using voice com Iron Horse..I am pretty sure You knew that already consider the specifics of Your last comment as usual.. Very nicely worded and well played. Thank You for teaching me how to troll with legal impunity on a forum. I do not think You should play on a server so often You claim to contain game breaking code. I also think You should represent the CDT better and more accurately in the future as You have come off as being fairly inaccurate in Your information Said often over voice communication regarding next releases containing features and content, condescending regarding problems with current builds not existing and rude. You sir called me a liar just as I thought You would proving one point I made earlier. I am glad however You no longer deny the current build issues myself and several others complained about while You were on the server. I can understand wanting to save face and not admit You did something with little thought, but You are representing a group unfairly by doing so. I received Your PM and altered my original statement accordingly. I will not be giving you the satisfaction of participating in Your games any longer.
That giveaway was Christmas specific and served its purposes completely. That was one giveaway for one and two, I only gave You crap the last time You were there because You did me the last time before that. I made my point. I am done with it. yes it was more dramatic, but I felt it necessary considering how hard it is to get anyone's undivided attention these days.
I might be a bit late for this but i hope ppl will still read this.
regarding the hitreg update: it fixed nothing for me. There still is a clear disconnect between where i see the player and where his hitbox is.
this means that i have no visial indication of where to shoot. the result is that it does not matter if you can detects hit with 100% acc because I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO SHOOT. (or move to). I also notice a massive difference in the amount this happens between servers, and I can also notice it the acc stats (rines) 17 % avg on 1 server 25% on the other (intresting point the 17% was vs rookies the 25 vs non rookies) (aliens also 45 to 53). If you want to adress the hitreg issues, it seems apearend from my perspective that you would need to make sure the hitbox is at the same place as the texture.
If the def team would be intrested in proof i can record some of the games and send the footage.
on a more positive note you seem to improving the other areas of the game so keep up the good work
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@Das19 It sounds like you are describing the trailing model issue that is still outstanding, where if you shoot at the tail end of a fast moving entity you see blood but it does not register?
If so, it was one of the two known issues that are still unfixed, as mentioned in this thread and the changelog.
That being said, we really appreciate any video evidence from others, to ensure there isn't a case we don't know about already. You can follow instructions on how to collect said data here.
Thanks!
I know this may not be the place to ask,but since we're talking about hitreg,can skulks bite you from the side of their mouths? or do you have to be looking directly at something?
I can half answer your question with a video. From a marine perspective, yes, it can sidebite. Mind you from the skulk perspective I was right in front him during his bites.
@IronHorse, in this video there's a moment the skulk model is shot and nothing happens. Few frames afterwards a missed shot seems to register. I was likely using ns2+ confirmed server blood. Was that reg from the previous shot?
v279 feels very different from earlier versions (with ~150ping).
From a marine POV the alien hitbox has shrunk. Especially with pistol.
From an alien POV it's much easier to die. It no longer matters if I do small deviations on my trajectory. It's the same as if I was in a straight line... dead.
Thanks for the vid.
At 1080p fullscreen and 0.25 speed I still cannot see where you are getting a failed hitreg, can you mention the time in the video it occurs?
If you think you missed when you killed that skulk, you did not. You can even see that last round tracer hitting their legs right before they go around the corner.
And yea, server confirmed blood is going to hide most hitreg issues. (except false positives)
The hitbox is going to feel smaller because positional information is much more accurate now between the players, so there's less leniency for shots that should've missed prior to the patch.
You'll feel this more as an alien because you can no longer get away with certain methods of "juking" or strafing that previously were enough to trick and essentially exploit the inaccurate (and slower) positional updates, allowing you to survive when you really shouldn't have.
A great example of this is a player named @Prommah .. for months I could never ever kill him when he fast juked on the ground as a skulk, and it always infuriated me because when I rewound the recorded footage I would be on target. The first day of testing the patch I decimated him every time with much glee and celebration, although he was none too happy hehe.
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
edited January 2016
@IronHorse
Was he talking about the ending with the pistol? I watched it at .25 speed and the shots may have been missing but only just, although his crosshair looked like it was on the model although its hard to tell with youtube compression and a small dot crosshair.
I know this may not be the place to ask,but since we're talking about hitreg,can skulks bite you from the side of their mouths? or do you have to be looking directly at something?
I can half answer your question with a video. From a marine perspective, yes, it can sidebite. Mind you from the skulk perspective I was right in front him during his bites.
@IronHorse, in this video there's a moment the skulk model is shot and nothing happens. Few frames afterwards a missed shot seems to register. I was likely using ns2+ confirmed server blood. Was that reg from the previous shot?
v279 feels very different from earlier versions (with ~150ping).
From a marine POV the alien hitbox has shrunk. Especially with pistol.
From an alien POV it's much easier to die. It no longer matters if I do small deviations on my trajectory. It's the same as if I was in a straight line... dead.
several of your pistol shots missed as far as i could tell at .25 speed. Several went high over or aft of the hind quarter.
Comments
@UncleCrunch I am wondering if you are considering on using your skills and abilities to help debug ns2 now that the holidays are over?
Oct 15-Nov 15 = Fall
Dec 15-Jan 15 = Winter
If I compare the servers I get send to, to the server browser I can clearly see its a good choice.
There are only a few downsides on play now because it can not yet distinguish certain things.
* It does not know mod specslots, so you get dumped on a 7vs7 server which is past 14 players.
* It does not know mod skill filters, so you get send to servers kicking you for your skill lvl.
The mods which did not download are not a server issue, in theory. but a steam issue. The server admin can set a workshop backup server however but not all do.
That is not a problem with join now. You would experience the same if you connect to the server manually.
SO it simply pulls in the mod you dont have.
Also preferred player slot count.
Very true and the 279 update made that lag so horrendous in my personal experience that it is a joke for me to even bother playing as nothing connects while You get insta gibbed around corners. I would say it is closer to a .5 to a point .9 second lag with high ping. They really need to roll back the update or at least allow it to be manually rolled back so people that have issues can play the game they paid for or In some instances like myself, paid a ^%$#ing fortune for!
Thank You for complaining about these known issues to them.. I hope it becomes more difficult for them to delude themselves into thinking they do not exist anymore.
Wired is for the pros and you get the best experience!
Unfortenly im a wi-fi user....
They are cheap too!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0084Y9N3O/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1452209896&sr=8-1&pi=SX200_QL40&keywords=powerline+adapter&dpPl=1&dpID=418ZLpKRboL&ref=plSrch
You can thank me later. Boom. Done!
You're welcome.
1. I do believe you are the only individual who has complained of the client experience being worse this patch. (I would know, I track it all between emails and all tech support forums)
2. I do not believe anyone on the CDT nor PDT (since you don't seem to know that exists) has disregarded any user but yourself* - so link me it if that's not just a lie.
All I've seen is members give out advice on how to provide useful data if you are seeing something we are unable to reproduce.
If that offends you so much, then you either need to grow a tougher skin or give up on your poor attempt at social interaction altogether.
*because the server you administrate (idk who thought giving you that was a good idea) was running stolen code and actually had broken gameplay (which I assisted the owner in resolving) due to the custom mods. Not really surprising if that's your only sample..
Thank you for the civil response.
I don't know why you were so aggravated or what past drama has occurred between you and the CDT for you to have such a vendetta, but what I said in your server was exactly what I've said in here: That you have tools at your disposal to capture what we cannot reproduce and what no one else has reported.
You have mentioned a slew of issues that are just not reported by anyone else... and since we cannot fix something we cannot reproduce, we truly do need the data from you to do so. No one (including myself) has denied that you are experiencing issues... I am sure that you are, given the degree of vitriol you've expressed and the state of that server's custom mods*. I realize this is an inconvenience for you, but simply put, our hands are tied if you are unable to provide us with useful data.
* I play on any US server available, and that includes servers that may have issues. Why? Because this is a great way for me to attempt to reproduce issues that people like yourself experience. Also, don't forget how I assisted the server owner with that custom mod bug and provided instructions on how to acquire measurable data for NS2+ performance on his server - not exactly the behavior of someone who dislikes and avoids something. I will say that I typically leave when I see you join the server, though, as I do not enjoy your aggressive behavior or the drama; I just don't want to experience that when I play NS2.
As for providing inaccurate information regarding future builds.. I do apologize if that's occurred, but I can only ever comment about what's posted publicly on the current trello board at the time, and as always everything is subject to change unfortunately.
Edit: I am not a PR rep or any sort of "ambassador" fyi.. I am a playtesting lead and assist with technical support issues.
and if your issue is with me specifically and not the CDT, you might want to change the rules of your server's giveaway
Unfortunately, he is part of the new trend of unreadable formatting and punctuation on the forums. Apparently, random ellipses and weird punctuation is contagious. I'm sorry/disappointed that we lost you too.
Your You's make my eyes weep in sadness
Why would You do this?
regarding the hitreg update: it fixed nothing for me. There still is a clear disconnect between where i see the player and where his hitbox is.
this means that i have no visial indication of where to shoot. the result is that it does not matter if you can detects hit with 100% acc because I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO SHOOT. (or move to). I also notice a massive difference in the amount this happens between servers, and I can also notice it the acc stats (rines) 17 % avg on 1 server 25% on the other (intresting point the 17% was vs rookies the 25 vs non rookies) (aliens also 45 to 53). If you want to adress the hitreg issues, it seems apearend from my perspective that you would need to make sure the hitbox is at the same place as the texture.
If the def team would be intrested in proof i can record some of the games and send the footage.
on a more positive note you seem to improving the other areas of the game so keep up the good work
If so, it was one of the two known issues that are still unfixed, as mentioned in this thread and the changelog.
That being said, we really appreciate any video evidence from others, to ensure there isn't a case we don't know about already. You can follow instructions on how to collect said data here.
Thanks!
I can half answer your question with a video. From a marine perspective, yes, it can sidebite. Mind you from the skulk perspective I was right in front him during his bites.
@IronHorse, in this video there's a moment the skulk model is shot and nothing happens. Few frames afterwards a missed shot seems to register. I was likely using ns2+ confirmed server blood. Was that reg from the previous shot?
v279 feels very different from earlier versions (with ~150ping).
From a marine POV the alien hitbox has shrunk. Especially with pistol.
From an alien POV it's much easier to die. It no longer matters if I do small deviations on my trajectory. It's the same as if I was in a straight line... dead.
Thanks for the vid.
At 1080p fullscreen and 0.25 speed I still cannot see where you are getting a failed hitreg, can you mention the time in the video it occurs?
If you think you missed when you killed that skulk, you did not. You can even see that last round tracer hitting their legs right before they go around the corner.
And yea, server confirmed blood is going to hide most hitreg issues. (except false positives)
The hitbox is going to feel smaller because positional information is much more accurate now between the players, so there's less leniency for shots that should've missed prior to the patch.
You'll feel this more as an alien because you can no longer get away with certain methods of "juking" or strafing that previously were enough to trick and essentially exploit the inaccurate (and slower) positional updates, allowing you to survive when you really shouldn't have.
A great example of this is a player named @Prommah .. for months I could never ever kill him when he fast juked on the ground as a skulk, and it always infuriated me because when I rewound the recorded footage I would be on target. The first day of testing the patch I decimated him every time with much glee and celebration, although he was none too happy hehe.
Look at this thread to learn how to better get data on hitreg so it can be improved.
Feel free to post your hitreg videos there also.
Was he talking about the ending with the pistol? I watched it at .25 speed and the shots may have been missing but only just, although his crosshair looked like it was on the model although its hard to tell with youtube compression and a small dot crosshair.
several of your pistol shots missed as far as i could tell at .25 speed. Several went high over or aft of the hind quarter.