Jumping As A Method Of Evasion Or Self Defence
Fantasmo
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
<div class="IPBDescription">An Observation</div> Bunny Hopping (<b>non-exploit</b>):
1.) A method of evasion. Unrestricted by gameplay a Marine can jump repeatedly without any cost to balance, stamina, or shooting accuracy. <b><i>Close quarter</i> alien attacks</b> can sometimes be evaded by pressing jump repeatedly.
2.) A method of self defence. Jumping repeatedly while spinning, aiming and firing can be used to repel <b><i>close quarter</i> alien attacks</b>.
<i>Bunny Hopping is a used when a marine has failed to eliminate an alien threat from a distance or when he has walked into an alien ambush.</i>
To my disappointment Flay has decided to allow the marines to continue to use jumping as a method of evasion. What boggles my mind is that goes completely against the dynamic of the game.
The Marines' advantage; <b>medium to long range</b>.
The Aliens' advantages; <b>close quarter combat</b>.
If a Marine finds himself in a <b><i>close quarter</i> alien attack/ambush</b> he <i>should</i> be at a disadvantage because that was the whole intent wasn't it. The incentive for the Marines to move in teams was to have more eyes and firepower, thereby increasing your chances of spotting and eliminating alien threats from a distance which increases your chances of survival.
By continuing to allow bunny hopping, a tactic that can be employed quite effectively despite the fact that it undermines the teamplay aspect of the game, is detrimental to the evolution of NS in my opinion. There must have been a realization that some amount of "training time" would be necessary for newcomers to fully accept and feel confortable with the deep teamplay that NS provides. How does allowing the marines to use a tactic spawned from <b>Deathmatch</b> in a <b>Teamplay</b> game like NS make it easier for the newcomers to see and realize the real value of teamplay?
Allowing bunny hopping reduces the aliens' effectiveness at close quarter combat which means the marines can be less careful, roam more, which then leads to a lack of tactical importance to stick together.
Disallowing bunny hopping forces the marines to become more careful, strategic and reliant on teammates which makes teamwork a matter of tactical importance.
A week ago I would have sworn the latter was the direction NS was going in, I wonder why it isn't?
1.) A method of evasion. Unrestricted by gameplay a Marine can jump repeatedly without any cost to balance, stamina, or shooting accuracy. <b><i>Close quarter</i> alien attacks</b> can sometimes be evaded by pressing jump repeatedly.
2.) A method of self defence. Jumping repeatedly while spinning, aiming and firing can be used to repel <b><i>close quarter</i> alien attacks</b>.
<i>Bunny Hopping is a used when a marine has failed to eliminate an alien threat from a distance or when he has walked into an alien ambush.</i>
To my disappointment Flay has decided to allow the marines to continue to use jumping as a method of evasion. What boggles my mind is that goes completely against the dynamic of the game.
The Marines' advantage; <b>medium to long range</b>.
The Aliens' advantages; <b>close quarter combat</b>.
If a Marine finds himself in a <b><i>close quarter</i> alien attack/ambush</b> he <i>should</i> be at a disadvantage because that was the whole intent wasn't it. The incentive for the Marines to move in teams was to have more eyes and firepower, thereby increasing your chances of spotting and eliminating alien threats from a distance which increases your chances of survival.
By continuing to allow bunny hopping, a tactic that can be employed quite effectively despite the fact that it undermines the teamplay aspect of the game, is detrimental to the evolution of NS in my opinion. There must have been a realization that some amount of "training time" would be necessary for newcomers to fully accept and feel confortable with the deep teamplay that NS provides. How does allowing the marines to use a tactic spawned from <b>Deathmatch</b> in a <b>Teamplay</b> game like NS make it easier for the newcomers to see and realize the real value of teamplay?
Allowing bunny hopping reduces the aliens' effectiveness at close quarter combat which means the marines can be less careful, roam more, which then leads to a lack of tactical importance to stick together.
Disallowing bunny hopping forces the marines to become more careful, strategic and reliant on teammates which makes teamwork a matter of tactical importance.
A week ago I would have sworn the latter was the direction NS was going in, I wonder why it isn't?
Comments
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1.) A method of evasion. Unrestricted by gameplay a Marine can jump repeatedly without any cost to balance, stamina, or shooting accuracy. <b><i>Close quarter</i> alien attacks</b> can sometimes be evaded by pressing jump repeatedly.
2.) A method of self defence. Jumping repeatedly while spinning, aiming and firing can be used to repel <b><i>close quarter</i> alien attacks</b>.
<i>Bunny Hopping is a used when a marine has failed to eliminate an alien threat from a distance or when he has walked into an alien ambush.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The community definition of BH'ing is to jump immediately as you land to negate friction with the floor, usually combined with a turn in the air to accelerate you. The description you've got there is really just referring to jumping around alot in combat, and probably shouldn't be called BH'ing at all.
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To my disappointment Flay has decided to allow the marines to continue to use jumping as a method of evasion. What boggles my mind is that goes completely against the dynamic of the game.
The Marines' advantage; <b>medium to long range</b>.
The Aliens' advantages; <b>close quarter combat</b>.
If a Marine finds himself in a <b><i>close quarter</i> alien attack/ambush</b> he <i>should</i> be at a disadvantage because that was the whole intent wasn't it.
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He is at a dissadvantage, don't assume that just because a marine can jump to evade some attacks and increase his chances, that he has the advantage over a skulk at point blank range, because that isnt the case. You speak as if the game were perfectly balanced and then someone suddenly decided to flick a switch allowing people to jump - which is nonsense. Marines have been able to jump around since the beginning, this isnt something that just happened and is creating terror in the kharaa ranks.
I'll save you the argument for the presence of real bunnyhopping in the game, as i'm getting rather sick of repeating it on this forum and i've yet to see a counter argument more intelligent than "OMG BH'ing is an exploit YOU CHEATER".
The ability to jump in combat has been a part of the game balance since conception, people have jumped, are jumping and will continue to jump. This is not "A direction the game is heading in".
Rather than complain about jumping-around-alot, which is infact NOT bunny hopping i suggest you start learning how to be a better skulk how to aim better and manuvoure better. I have never had a serious problem hitting bouncing marines and usually sit on top of the scoreboard staying skulk only all map.
By your argument about ranges you suggest, whenever Skulk X is in range Y radius of Marine Z. Marine Z == Dead. This is idiocy.
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If a Marine finds himself in a close quarter alien attack/ambush he should be at a disadvantage because that was the whole intent wasn't it
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Are you suggesting a marine is at an advantage in close quaters? If you are you seriously need to rethink your argument.
And aliens are SUPPOSED to jump because they are animals. Animals jumping = good, marines jumping = bad. I can't possibly make myself any clearer.
Stamina bar for marines or anything to stop that jump-fighting.
isn't it that any consecutive jumps will be lower and cause you to run slower for a short period of time?
I know the DoD method would work well. It would give LA marines perhaps 3-4 jumps before being out of stamina (just crouch to regain it) and a HA marines only 1-2 jumps before being out. I like it...anyone else?
Jumping around like an idiot is just stupid looking
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Right.. It doesnt look any good. Wheter that is enough reason to limit it is questionable. But I wouldnt really mind if they restricted it somehow.
I completely agree with Fant's argument, I couldn't have put it any better myself.
You have my condolences though, as the best reply you've gotten so far are just skimming the surface of being personal insults and directly reflect the poster's intelligence, no one's actually given a valid reason *why* marines should be allowed to hop around in close quarters combat.
I was always of the mind that if a skulk got the jump on you, and managed to close in on you, that the marine should be taken out, unless he has an entire host to support him. I thought it had already been expressed that
1 skulk > 1 marine.
Too often this doesn't seem to be the case.
People however are very ignorantly responding with "well then the marine just has more skill than you so you should get some more skillz!"
Yet these very same people's definition of "skill" revolves around, as mentioned, basic deathmatching techniques which detract from what I thought at least was the teamplay atmosphere trying to be achieved.
That marine deserves to kill that skulk, similarly if you are a skulk who is MUCH better than a marine at long range you can kill them with parasite.
The problem is most people are newbish at close combat fighting and hence are suprised when a non newbish marine kills them, while most people have a clue about long range fighting and so don't get killed by parasite.
BlueGhost
Think of it this way. There is a skulk rushing at your feet. Your reaction is to jump up and shoot. Once or twice. The skulk should be able to jump with the marine or just look up and bite. Also, use suprise attacks, from behind or sides. Dont see small vurneable aliens running in open view.
Jumping around like an idiot is just stupid looking
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Right.. It doesnt look any good. Wheter that is enough reason to limit it is questionable. But I wouldnt really mind if they restricted it somehow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who's had any sort of martial arts training can tell you that close-quarters hand-to-hand combat is a very complex, fast-paced, and kinesthetic process. A blow can be avoided by a last-minute lean or twist of the torso. An attack can be deflected by a quick arm or leg movement.
In Halflife, we don't have this fine or intuitive control over marines. I like to think of all the stupid jumping as an abstraction for all the complex dodges and parries that would happen in an actual hand-to-hand engagement. Until NS ships with a neural hook-up, some sort of abstraction of the melee combat process is required.
Aliens are allowed to jump in close combat because it helps avoid bullets, it helps confuse the enemy, and makes you less predictable. Dogs, tigers, etc, all leap at their pray, so not only is it realistic, but cool.
However, if an attack dog was running right at you, you think you jumping is gonna save you from it biting you? Remember, all it takes is 2 bites to kill. If a marine can dodge even 1 of them, then it can very well save his life and end yours.
It's not unbalancing, but it is frusterating sometimes, so I wouldn't mind a change.
Also as some people have already mentioned, it shoudnt just be a black/white, long range = marine, short range = skulk. A good skulk should be able to take out a marine at long range by running up to them while dodging side to side, and a good marine should be able to take out a skulk at short range by dodging attacks.
Bhopping marines are not hard to kill, simply head towards the spot they are goin to land
That marine deserves to kill that skulk, similarly if you are a skulk who is MUCH better than a marine at long range you can kill them with parasite.
The problem is most people are newbish at close combat fighting and hence are suprised when a non newbish marine kills them, while most people have a clue about long range fighting and so don't get killed by parasite.
BlueGhost<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Parasite killing LMG marines is SO much harder than killing skulks running around your feet. Most skulks seem to have some problems dealing with some of the more hectic battles and mostly just run around by instinct and as such you can dodge a lot of their attacks by simply staying off the ground by hitting the space bar at regular intervals. Coupled with some remaining hitbox bugs (marine soles seem to be rather tough quite often, I spent a minute munching on a test dummy marine's boots as a test at the feedwater hive ladder shaft) and the relatively small hit radius of the skulk bite, this often leads to a dead skulk and an alive marine if the skulk isn't a full healthed carapaced specimen when entering the fight.
It really is quite sad that most of the time the scoreboards shows numbers like 50/10 kills/losses for marines and 10/50 for aliens before fades, after which the death increase goes to near zero while the kills come in like mad (unless the marines have multiple HAs).
And aliens are SUPPOSED to jump because they are animals. Animals jumping = good, marines jumping = bad. I can't possibly make myself any clearer.
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it is people like YOU who ruined CS ... people like u who cant adapt and have to have things UR way.... so that u can play it easier... what.... this is a game dude... learn to adapt.. so what... i can kill jumping marines.... by the time u get up that close... the marine only has a 30% chance or even less of killing u.... its bascially at range he has his chance... if he cant kill u then its his own fault.....
jumping DOESNT make a differnece.. oh yay.. a stamina bar... boy every mod soon will make it so that jumping sucks... jumping has been killed in CS becuase of ppl like u whining "o no.. its so HARD for me to hit a jumping target"
well if u cant.. get some aim... sit down.. learn to use a mouse.... seriously.... i had people that have such petty complaints about a game.... as if the devs dun have nything more to do than to listen to ur pointless complain?? the world isn't going to go your way... even though ur saying aliens should jump now.. knowing you youd proabbaly whine about how aliens shouldn't jump either becuase "it is tooo hard to hit them with ur lmg when they are jumping off walls!"
lamer... seirously.. sorry to flame you,...but im jus pretty **** listening to all these complaints.... its whiners like u that ruin every good mod.... but i think NS is prety perfect... a few minor tweaks which i think 1.04c is taking care of pretty welll.....
kudos to u flayra <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> on a wonderful game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That simply does not sound plausible at all.
Mind you, they've <i>already</i> got a system now where marines are often thrown back several feet after the first bite, which in itself seems implausible (an alien leaps at you and just pop back and land on your feet); it's already quite disorienting to a skulk assailant. After all, wouldn't an animal like that simply clamp its teeth on your thigh and drag you down, then rip out your throat? The ability of a marine to get knocked back several feet and still easily aim while he's flying back through the air, not to mention his ability for extemely quick turning speeds (180 degrees, nearly instantaneously) are both already an abstraction of some fancy manuevering.
As far as I'm concerned, something close to the current CS limitations on jumping is reasonable. Perhaps 3 or 4 hops; then after that, a drain on your regular running speed.
jumping DOESNT make a differnece.. oh yay.. a stamina bar... boy every mod soon will make it so that jumping sucks... jumping has been killed in CS becuase of ppl like u whining "o no.. its so HARD for me to hit a jumping target"
well if u cant.. get some aim... sit down.. learn to use a mouse.... seriously.... i had people that have such petty complaints about a game.... as if the devs dun have nything more to do than to listen to ur pointless complain?? the world isn't going to go your way... even though ur saying aliens should jump now.. knowing you youd proabbaly whine about how aliens shouldn't jump either becuase "it is tooo hard to hit them with ur lmg when they are jumping off walls!"
lamer... seirously.. sorry to flame you,...but im jus pretty **** listening to all these complaints.... its whiners like u that ruin every good mod.... but i think NS is prety perfect... a few minor tweaks which i think 1.04c is taking care of pretty welll.....
kudos to u flayra <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> on a wonderful game. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Popularity ruined CS, will just have to hope NS doesn't suffer the same fate.
The point of this whole topic is that jumping DOES make a difference. There's no use in denying it, a marine who jumps around all the time will on average live a bit longer than a marine who doesn't jump at all. I don't really get it why jumping would get ruined by some limit to it, it would make more sense plus give the skulks yet another slight (and needed) boost.
Marines bunnyhopping all over the place is in direct clash with the general feel of the marine team, atleast in my opinion. Skulks however are supposed to be speedy and stealthy.
Anyway, I think you're the whiner here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you could try some constructive criticism instead of just flaming. People might take you more seriously.
Also as some people have already mentioned, it shoudnt just be a black/white, long range = marine, short range = skulk. A good skulk should be able to take out a marine at long range by running up to them while dodging side to side, and a good marine should be able to take out a skulk at short range by dodging attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what? You should be able to predect where they'll be? Yeah, try biting a bouncy-ball marine and succeeding(as in for your bite connects); unless you have celerity you won't reach him before he can line you up and toast your non-carapaced butt, or he'll hurt you bad if you do have carapace. GJ rambo marine, you smoke another alien with your 1337ness. The reason why this is cheap is that the skulk bite will knock the enemy away a bit, and if they're jumping you'll knock them further away. Tie this in with the already buggy hitbox issues, and you have a nasty exploit. Maybe <u>that's</u> why the aliens always seem to die when you play, you "skilled" marines you. *sigh*
Unfortunately for those who know how to use B-hopping for both travel, pleasure, and victory, Flayra plans on crushing this ASAP, I would point to the thread he posted in, but we've all read it.
As for a good skulk TAKING OUT a marine at long range.. that's impossible. The only way you can TAKE OUT a marine at long distance is with a non-melee attack... what are you going to do, pray he stands still for a minute's worth of parasiting? Jeez, get real. Dodging long range and dodging short-range are related, and bunny-hopping during both is just silly.
The B-hopping marines claim they B-hop as fades, too. I wonder if that helps any? I personally have yet to B-hop while playing alien, since I don't have a key bound to b-hopping.
sidenote-if you like playing DM-style fights, play as the kharaa, that was the design's intention.
sidenote2-Sorry that I'm defending those that prefer B-hopping more than those who don't, but its not because I play aliens more than marines, it's that I feel the game design isn't supposed to have this close-range marine advantage. You want close-range marine advantage, use a shottie <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I enjoy the "reality" arguments too though you have to wonder where you end up. After all, IRL, 1-2 direct hits from a 5.56er pretty much puts you out of commission or kills you, which is why real life soldiers head for cover and depend on covering fire and firing from entrenched positions rather than jumping around like maniacs. Hell, go back to WWI and think about the trench raids. Can you imagine an entire battalion of soldiers getting out of the trenches and bunnyhopping like mad to the other side?
The real problem is that most players don't have the uber arms training that allows them good accuracy with their weapon and the aliens don't have the intuitive closecombat functionality. Now some people have training or experience, but I guarantee for 95% of us the standard encounter with a mad dog would include backing away then putting an arm out in front for the dog to chew on while you scream piteously for help. God help you if you encounter a true attack dog (not a police dog trained to immobilize, but like a WWII military dog).
This is why "realism" arguments don't work well, because its not reality. We are not heavily buffed Marines with years of military training nor are we attack animals with centuries of wellbuilt instinct and insane dexterity. All of that HAS to be poorly coded in for us into the game.
My ONLY problem with bunny-hopping is that there is a confirmed then not-confirmed BUG where you become harder to hit IN THE ENGINE ITSELF. If this is true, it should be fixed and if it cannot be, then gameplay mechanics should be put in place so that bunny-hopping cannot be infinite.