Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2016
The old can of worms of ranked server being modded/vanilla argument again
This has been done to death in the past. The end results of the original discussions was that agreed mods could be run on a server and it could be whitelisted. I don't know how rigorously the policy was followed.
It does seem a server can easily change it's mod configuration after whitelisting without having to re whitelist, but again, I don't know how things got implemented, only how the original debates reached a compromise.
I just remembered another question about powernodes.
I played on a server yesterday where it seemed that powernodes dropped automatically. The players assured me that this wasn't a mod. Is that a thing now or were they badly informed?
The old can of worms of ranked server being modded/vanilla argument again
This has been done to death in the past. The end results of the original discussions was that agreed mods could be run on a server and it could be whitelisted. I don't know how rigorously the policy was followed.
It does seem a server can easily change it's mod configuration after whitelisting without having to re whitelist, but again, I don't know how things got implemented, only how the original debates reached a compromise.
I believe it is policy that whatever mod setup doesn't alter the core gameplay *too much*. now the debate over whether 20 players on a team alters the gameplay too much.
But servers like Luckyfkers with whatever their mod conglomerate changes was apparently enough to get them not whitelisted.
As you can see, the policy is as such that Wooza's should not be whitelisted. I don't really have a problem with Wooza's being whitelisted myself. I just want the policy to be consistant. UWE should either say they white list large servers, or not white list Wooza's.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2016
Wtf is this. I mean really.
">24 slots are not accepted"
Wooza has over 24 slot since its up and every1 know this, oops.
Like in every other game out there, servers should be only ranked if there are official supported.
If they have a unsupported status, people can still play there for "fun" but cant rankup (like in CS:Go with 64slot pistol only for example)
Now im waiting for "No, this community is so small, blabla" or funny statistics about how "balanced" the rounds are there.
Btw.
Its funny that this server is also whitelistet, cause it has the ">24 slots are not accepted" in the servername.
"GPlay NS2 20v20 5Spec" (well, this server doesnt exist anymore but wtf)
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited February 2016
The effect on your score is inversely proportional to the number of players so I don't think whitelisting wooza's is a bad idea. Rounds there will just count less which seems like a nice middle ground between counting fully and not counting. Wooza's needs shuffle to work correctly just as much as any other server.
I've had a few instances already in which it hit me killed or caused more confusion than it's worth.
I took some videos as examples but probably won't have time to post for a few days, hopefully I'll catch some more instances.
If anything, the time it goes from primed to buildable blueprint and then backed to prime after flashing your light at it is too short. Couple times I flashed it, but disappeared before I could get to it to build it.
It is just is too tedious of a thing to be mindful of when you're already trying to watch map, listen for aliens, communicate with your team, etc.
I've had a few instances already in which it hit me killed or caused more confusion than it's worth.
I took some videos as examples but probably won't have time to post for a few days, hopefully I'll catch some more instances.
If anything, the time it goes from primed to buildable blueprint and then backed to prime after flashing your light at it is too short. Couple times I flashed it, but disappeared before I could get to it to build it.
It is just is too tedious of a thing to be mindful of when you're already trying to watch map, listen for aliens, communicate with your team, etc.
An example of prime power nodes breaking game flow.
I've had a few instances already in which it hit me killed or caused more confusion than it's worth.
I took some videos as examples but probably won't have time to post for a few days, hopefully I'll catch some more instances.
If anything, the time it goes from primed to buildable blueprint and then backed to prime after flashing your light at it is too short. Couple times I flashed it, but disappeared before I could get to it to build it.
It is just is too tedious of a thing to be mindful of when you're already trying to watch map, listen for aliens, communicate with your team, etc.
An example of prime power nodes breaking game flow.
Btw I was being facetious earlier with my spam fl comment. It's a silly thing, I feel derpy flashing at the damn thing.
Ironically, this change which is supposed to make power... easier for nubs (? I don't really know why it was implemented I guess) makes @frozen's anti power campaign more compelling for me.
Where is the huge diffence?
I cant see it.
And the comp player didnt play on server where rounds are shuffled, so its logical that he gains or lose more score.
Cant see the effect of the serversize here.
Where is the huge diffence?
I cant see it.
And the comp player didnt play on server where rounds are shuffled, so its logical that he gains or lose more score.
Cant see the effect of the serversize here.
if a structure is dropped, the node is dropped automatically.
Long time no see @F0rdPrefect Wondered where you had got to
I periodically enter phases of hibernation during which I require little nanites ns2. During these I usually only creep out on sundays for some maptesting.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2016
"The mean change per round for the wooza's player is 7.8. The mean change per round of the comp player is 20. "
Thats indeed a huge difference. (did i mention that there is no shufffle on comp servers?)
Its just amazing that the devs telling nonstop that these hacked servers are not supported, telling that ">24 slots are not accepted" for whitelisting and than postings like this.
Then whitelist all servers please. Doesnt make sense to not whitelist modded servers while other "modded" with an "unspported slotsize" are.
Personally, I am not happy with the new update. I have always avoided servers that run primable power nodes, as I dislike the being forced to play the game the way a select few decide it should be played.
Now however, NS2 has gone down that route.
What next? Are you going to go through every aspect of the game.. Find all the areas where someone could do something which is sub-optimal, and remove the choice from the game?
This game is about choices, decisions and mistakes. You are now trying to remove those from the game and force us to all play the same way. I know, in a future update, remove the ability for players to actually play the game, and just have them perma-speccing a bot, which plays the game exactly as people want it to be played, rather than you know, making, choices decisions and mistakes.
So much this ^^^
It's something that you learn about and can use/exploit if you continue to play the game, I've fully built power nodes to make aliens think that there's a forward base near their main so they reallocate players to investigate etc...
Also REALLY not liking the "swap to welder" if you have one on your person...
I don't want to see NS2 turn into "press W and click to win". Options are good and putting things like this in Vanilla are IMHO, harmful to the game. If someone thinks the game should have prime-able nodes to aid rookies then let the server owner put the mod on their own (rookie friendly?/only?) server.
Maybe, have this ONLY on for rookie only servers so they can learn the premise of priming nodes and then when they transition to normal servers they'll learn to use it to their advantage.
In Short, I agree it's daunting for rookies, but I don't want to see the game degrade in attempts to keep players that aren't willing to learn the game.
In Short, I agree it's daunting for rookies, but I don't want to see the game degrade in attempts to keep players that aren't willing to learn the game.
No one wants the game to be dumbed down to a mindless shooter. The beauty of NS2 is that it has a strategic depth. But you can choose where you place the depth. Ideally it should be in places which are fairly obvious to people, and yet it it is hard to reach perfection (easy to learn, hard to master), so that people have motivation to improve. There are very obvious areas here even to rookies - the aiming skill for marines, the movement skill for aliens, the benefits of good team play, the strategic thinking of a player (once the basic concepts are understood), the strategic play of the commander. All of those offer great depth and are naturally understood even by rookies. Once you understand that securing resources is more important than going on a shooting spree inside alien territory, you begin to pay more attention to the map, you begin communicating with others, and you become a better player. The same goes with hundreds others game mechanics in the game, when you learn alien movement patterns, the importance of focusing tunnels/phase gates first, the fact that footstep sounds are an extremely important part of this game, etc etc. There are also areas which you can't naturally see from the game play (e.g. how different weapons harm different species, what is flamethrower good for, etc), so that you have to crawl some wiki (this should be really improved in the game), but still are pretty naturally understood by people.
All of those offer great depth and make sense even in the real world, which means people grasp them quickly and without any extra help.
And then you have mechanics which have no basis in the real world, doesn't work as one would naturally expect, and you need to learn them counter-intuitively just because they are derived from some core design decision (one could say flaw) of the game. Invulnerable power nodes are one of those. It makes absolutely no sense for power nodes to be invulnerable until finished for the first time. It is not natural and obvious. And the fact that good players leave power nodes at 99% completion is the end result of having an nonsensical opaque game mechanic which good players abuse and turn into an unnatural weird gimmick. And that's why all rookies run around and complete all power nodes (because it makes a freaking sense!) and good players get angry at them, and lengthily explain this gimmick. This does not help the game.
The first ones are depth mechanics that you want to have more of, the second ones are depth mechanics you want to have less. NS2 devs are working on reducing those unnatural gimmicks, which is great. I'm not sure primed power nodes are a good solution of this (I'd just make it behave the same as any other building), and especially the flashlight override is a terrible mistake wrt natural game learning, but at least they're trying to improve these opaque game mechanics, which I'm really really glad for.
Those ns2large servers are such a cluster**** of lag, bad performance, and mindless gameplay that to consider them whitelisted while other servers like luckyfkers isn't is just insane..
If they're going to whitelist crap like woozas then they should just go all the way.. Marine vs marine, faded, last stand, you name it..
I don't want to see NS2 turn into "press W and click to win".
The hyperbole in that statement is absurd.
I do like an outlandish hyperbole.
Ridiculousness aside, Wouldn't features like these be better suited to rookie only servers? or is there any potential issue with creating client side, hive level based 'tutorial' features like this during normal play?
For instance:
Only primable power nodes until level 5,
Auto welder until level 8,
General help tooltips etc until level 10.
This way it gives rookies a 'helping hand' and a chance to learn first hand little mechanics of the game, what's generally expected of them and then allow them to decide how to play once a level cap has been breached.
At least that way the tutorial essentially continues into them playing but won't affect players that want more control over what they do.
^auto welder is not going to help balance unless it's only in rookie only servers. But maybe something could be implemented similar to this, it's similar to csgo casual where you automatically have a defuse kit and armor at start of the round.
But servers like Luckyfkers with whatever their mod conglomerate changes was apparently enough to get them not whitelisted.
I think Luckyfkers op turns off the hive reporting. Theory is players can just enjoy the NS2 world and not worry so much about stacking and stuff to protect their hive rep.
Comments
This has been done to death in the past. The end results of the original discussions was that agreed mods could be run on a server and it could be whitelisted. I don't know how rigorously the policy was followed.
It does seem a server can easily change it's mod configuration after whitelisting without having to re whitelist, but again, I don't know how things got implemented, only how the original debates reached a compromise.
I played on a server yesterday where it seemed that powernodes dropped automatically. The players assured me that this wasn't a mod. Is that a thing now or were they badly informed?
Long time no see @F0rdPrefect Wondered where you had got to
I believe it is policy that whatever mod setup doesn't alter the core gameplay *too much*. now the debate over whether 20 players on a team alters the gameplay too much.
But servers like Luckyfkers with whatever their mod conglomerate changes was apparently enough to get them not whitelisted.
As you can see, the policy is as such that Wooza's should not be whitelisted. I don't really have a problem with Wooza's being whitelisted myself. I just want the policy to be consistant. UWE should either say they white list large servers, or not white list Wooza's.
">24 slots are not accepted"
Wooza has over 24 slot since its up and every1 know this, oops.
Like in every other game out there, servers should be only ranked if there are official supported.
If they have a unsupported status, people can still play there for "fun" but cant rankup (like in CS:Go with 64slot pistol only for example)
Now im waiting for "No, this community is so small, blabla" or funny statistics about how "balanced" the rounds are there.
Btw.
Its funny that this server is also whitelistet, cause it has the ">24 slots are not accepted" in the servername.
"GPlay NS2 20v20 5Spec" (well, this server doesnt exist anymore but wtf)
(more ip's/eggs?)
Otherwise i agree. Over 24 servers should not be whitelisted if other mods do not.
I've had a few instances already in which it hit me killed or caused more confusion than it's worth.
I took some videos as examples but probably won't have time to post for a few days, hopefully I'll catch some more instances.
If anything, the time it goes from primed to buildable blueprint and then backed to prime after flashing your light at it is too short. Couple times I flashed it, but disappeared before I could get to it to build it.
It is just is too tedious of a thing to be mindful of when you're already trying to watch map, listen for aliens, communicate with your team, etc.
An example of prime power nodes breaking game flow.
Btw I was being facetious earlier with my spam fl comment. It's a silly thing, I feel derpy flashing at the damn thing.
Ironically, this change which is supposed to make power... easier for nubs (? I don't really know why it was implemented I guess) makes @frozen's anti power campaign more compelling for me.
I cant see what you discribe in the results.
Lets compare a wooza pub star:
http://hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/106804949
With an comp player:
http://hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/265699
Where is the huge diffence?
I cant see it.
And the comp player didnt play on server where rounds are shuffled, so its logical that he gains or lose more score.
Cant see the effect of the serversize here.
Here's a spreadsheet that shows it. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zBfcNt2spnm5WNNMc7AKzJu8b_Ai4HxTJZyNQmNBgN0/
The mean change per round for the wooza's player is 7.8. The mean change per round of the comp player is 20.
Edit: maybe not according to average change per round from post above.
I periodically enter phases of hibernation during which I require little nanites ns2. During these I usually only creep out on sundays for some maptesting.
Thats indeed a huge difference. (did i mention that there is no shufffle on comp servers?)
Its just amazing that the devs telling nonstop that these hacked servers are not supported, telling that ">24 slots are not accepted" for whitelisting and than postings like this.
Then whitelist all servers please. Doesnt make sense to not whitelist modded servers while other "modded" with an "unspported slotsize" are.
So much this ^^^
It's something that you learn about and can use/exploit if you continue to play the game, I've fully built power nodes to make aliens think that there's a forward base near their main so they reallocate players to investigate etc...
Also REALLY not liking the "swap to welder" if you have one on your person...
I don't want to see NS2 turn into "press W and click to win". Options are good and putting things like this in Vanilla are IMHO, harmful to the game. If someone thinks the game should have prime-able nodes to aid rookies then let the server owner put the mod on their own (rookie friendly?/only?) server.
Maybe, have this ONLY on for rookie only servers so they can learn the premise of priming nodes and then when they transition to normal servers they'll learn to use it to their advantage.
In Short, I agree it's daunting for rookies, but I don't want to see the game degrade in attempts to keep players that aren't willing to learn the game.
Hey man, pressing W is a good way to get around. If you don't press W you end up in one spot. And last I heard, standing still is deadly in this game
No one wants the game to be dumbed down to a mindless shooter. The beauty of NS2 is that it has a strategic depth. But you can choose where you place the depth. Ideally it should be in places which are fairly obvious to people, and yet it it is hard to reach perfection (easy to learn, hard to master), so that people have motivation to improve. There are very obvious areas here even to rookies - the aiming skill for marines, the movement skill for aliens, the benefits of good team play, the strategic thinking of a player (once the basic concepts are understood), the strategic play of the commander. All of those offer great depth and are naturally understood even by rookies. Once you understand that securing resources is more important than going on a shooting spree inside alien territory, you begin to pay more attention to the map, you begin communicating with others, and you become a better player. The same goes with hundreds others game mechanics in the game, when you learn alien movement patterns, the importance of focusing tunnels/phase gates first, the fact that footstep sounds are an extremely important part of this game, etc etc. There are also areas which you can't naturally see from the game play (e.g. how different weapons harm different species, what is flamethrower good for, etc), so that you have to crawl some wiki (this should be really improved in the game), but still are pretty naturally understood by people.
All of those offer great depth and make sense even in the real world, which means people grasp them quickly and without any extra help.
And then you have mechanics which have no basis in the real world, doesn't work as one would naturally expect, and you need to learn them counter-intuitively just because they are derived from some core design decision (one could say flaw) of the game. Invulnerable power nodes are one of those. It makes absolutely no sense for power nodes to be invulnerable until finished for the first time. It is not natural and obvious. And the fact that good players leave power nodes at 99% completion is the end result of having an nonsensical opaque game mechanic which good players abuse and turn into an unnatural weird gimmick. And that's why all rookies run around and complete all power nodes (because it makes a freaking sense!) and good players get angry at them, and lengthily explain this gimmick. This does not help the game.
The first ones are depth mechanics that you want to have more of, the second ones are depth mechanics you want to have less. NS2 devs are working on reducing those unnatural gimmicks, which is great. I'm not sure primed power nodes are a good solution of this (I'd just make it behave the same as any other building), and especially the flashlight override is a terrible mistake wrt natural game learning, but at least they're trying to improve these opaque game mechanics, which I'm really really glad for.
Those ns2large servers are such a cluster**** of lag, bad performance, and mindless gameplay that to consider them whitelisted while other servers like luckyfkers isn't is just insane..
If they're going to whitelist crap like woozas then they should just go all the way.. Marine vs marine, faded, last stand, you name it..
I do like an outlandish hyperbole.
Ridiculousness aside, Wouldn't features like these be better suited to rookie only servers? or is there any potential issue with creating client side, hive level based 'tutorial' features like this during normal play?
For instance:
Only primable power nodes until level 5,
Auto welder until level 8,
General help tooltips etc until level 10.
This way it gives rookies a 'helping hand' and a chance to learn first hand little mechanics of the game, what's generally expected of them and then allow them to decide how to play once a level cap has been breached.
At least that way the tutorial essentially continues into them playing but won't affect players that want more control over what they do.