However, that isn't possible if the competitive scene isn't willing to balance test vanilla and able to provide constructive feedback in a civil manner.
We gave feedback for years. It was ignored for years. We made Compmod.
I know, but haven't the current devs shown that they're interested in competive balance by taking over most of the comp mod changes?
If cyst hp and life form eggs are biggest problems in order to play vanillia competitively, then I think its on a good way.
However, that isn't possible if the competitive scene isn't willing to balance test vanilla and able to provide constructive feedback in a civil manner.
We gave feedback for years. It was ignored for years. We made Compmod.
I know, but haven't the current devs shown that they're interested in competive balance by taking over most of the comp mod changes?
If cyst hp and life form eggs are biggest problems in order to play vanillia competitively, then I think its on a good way.
No, when you look at the last updates, you can see that they have shown that they are interested to balance around lowest level of play (rookies) and 12vs12.
However, that isn't possible if the competitive scene isn't willing to balance test vanilla and able to provide constructive feedback in a civil manner.
We gave feedback for years. It was ignored for years. We made Compmod.
I know, but haven't the current devs shown that they're interested in competive balance by taking over most of the comp mod changes?
If cyst hp and life form eggs are biggest problems in order to play vanillia competitively, then I think its on a good way.
No, when you look at the last updates, you can see that they have shown that they are interested to balance around lowest level of play (rookies) and 12vs12.
exactly.
Healthbars, the stupid idea about "alien beacon" when your lifeform dies, faster pres to get your lifeform back more quickly and everything is marking you now and for a longer time, primeable power.
nobody asked for this changes. especially not the comp players.
If i would be a dev i would try to cooperate with the players who now the game best. and that are the comp players. So i would try to implement the compmod in the game.
On the other hand people have been asking for Exo and Gorges changes especially babblers and webs forever (aswell as balance changes in general).
I'm glad there are finally movements on that front. Also something needs to be done to make this more engaging for Rookies.
However, that isn't possible if the competitive scene isn't willing to balance test vanilla and able to provide constructive feedback in a civil manner.
We gave feedback for years. It was ignored for years. We made Compmod.
I know, but haven't the current devs shown that they're interested in competive balance by taking over most of the comp mod changes?
If cyst hp and life form eggs are biggest problems in order to play vanillia competitively, then I think its on a good way.
No, when you look at the last updates, you can see that they have shown that they are interested to balance around lowest level of play (rookies) and 12vs12.
I'm guessing you're talking about the health bars, but I don't see how this shows an interest in balancing around the lowest level of play. It shows that they're interested in lowering the entry level for this game. Yes, it does affect gameplay and therefore balance, but I think that most people are either exaggerating the effects or unjustly rate the effects as bad, because it may not provide the gameplay that we're used to.
I don't see what change is aimed specifically at 12vs12 though? The rapture change?
The changes being made are for the better, Yes off course there is changes i dont like nor agree with, but if the bigger picture is to make Natural Selection bigger and better with more players, then am all for it. But at what cost??
New changes are great if your a new player, never to have played Ns2 before, or even a returning player from days of younder.
If you have been around from the start and are still here playing, then some of these changes maybe bad, Health bars? more annoying than usful but i can see what your aimming for, maybe only have these on rookie only?
But to my main point on Comp, Should there be a mod? Yes, or at least some type of tournament mode that can be used to help test new changes, build upon and have a proper feedback built in so maybe after each round played, players can submit said feedback.
Copy and Pasted from Ensl.org Written by Simba:
Using this will be very difficult to do and coordinate. As such, we have decided that it is not a realistic option. Reasons:
Coordinating 150 players to switch to a separate branch of NS2 is annoying and painful for each person to do. Some people will refuse to do this, and might force match forfeits as a result. Some may have technical difficulties.
Coordinating modders to have versions of their mod that is compatible with our branch is going to be difficult. We would have to get versions of comp-mod, nsl mod, and ns2+ working at the minimum.
Coordinating server operators to switch to use the right branch of NS2 and the right branch of mods will be a logistical nightmare. Any technical difficulties are going to take a lot of time to resolve, and we're all volunteers here.
1) I remember some games ns2 included that have a choice box on startup
(back in the days it was the choice between the launch pad and start ns2)
looks like that:
Can we not have the same for NS2 comp and NS2 instead of a different branches ?
2) Or a starting parameter for "ns2.exe -comp" to launch in comp mod.
With both possibility's:
The Patch size will increases but its a 1 time download.
instead of switching Branches that makes multiple downloads.
Its better for people with slow internet/volume based internet or no ssds/Slow Pcs.
leave alone the time you have to take to always switch back and forth in branches every time you want to switch to NS2 or Comp.
I'm worried that the devs seem to think that features veterans (particularly comp players) want that will make them happy and make the game better for them are mutually exclusive from features that improve retention.
Comp mod was made because it improved glaring problems with the game and made it more fun; ever thought that these changes might make it more fun for new players?
e.g.
Diminishing returns on cyst HP further down the chain
Gorge bhop
Silence/Camo split
HMG
I still think that making gorge bhop a vanilla feature will massively improve games because strong players can go gorge and actually be effective instead of going skulk/lifeform and stomping or going vanilla gorge and being useless.
i think gorge bhop would be a great addition. for one, it's easy. the bare minimum you need to do is slide and jump. I think people get intimidated when they hear it referred to as "bhop" because they think of something difficult like circle/strafe jumping from quake, or actual bhop in CS. nothing fancy whatsoever is required to do it in ns2 at the basic level and benefit from it. as I said, slide and jump. skulks gain speed by jumping, lerks gain speed by spamming their jump key, fades maintain speed by jumping between blinks, gorge might as well too, eh? consistency.
however, like any good movement mechanic, there's a more advanced method people can strive to learn. golden has a decent video on it. if you're familiar with strafe jumping you'll pick it up in a few minutes.
i have two videos of myself playing gorge competitively where you can see the bhop used throughout in actual games. first , second (div1 finals)
I'm worried that the devs seem to think that features veterans (particularly comp players) want that will make them happy and make the game better for them are mutually exclusive from features that improve retention.
Comp mod was made because it improved glaring problems with the game and made it more fun; ever thought that these changes might make it more fun for new players?
e.g.
Diminishing returns on cyst HP further down the chain
Gorge bhop
Silence/Camo split
HMG
I still think that making gorge bhop a vanilla feature will massively improve games because strong players can go gorge and actually be effective instead of going skulk/lifeform and stomping or going vanilla gorge and being useless.
What if I told you that all the things you just mentioned are being worked on in their own way
I can give you the best numbers I can for high skilled games. I limited the 1658 games played in B297 to the top 200 most skilled games. The average skill increased from 1377 to 1849. Aliens won 51.5% of games, and marines won 48.5% of games. So yes, even higher skilled games still have near 50/50 win rates.
I can also tell you that from B279 to B297 that there were 2807 games that had tournament mode turned on. These were competitive matches. In those games, the average hive skill was 2364. Aliens won 52.1% of games, and marines won 47.9% of games. I would do a similar B296 to B297 for tournament mode but the sample sizes are in single digits. There is just not enough data to compare.
It is difficult to get data on games of really high skill. The top 10% of skill starts at about 2100 hive skill. These players don't always play together, and often mix with lower skilled players. I agree that the top top end of skill is not well represented in the data, because there just aren't enough of them. That does not change my point. I am not saying that the decisions the developers made are perfectly balanced, I am saying that the sky isn't falling. The game balance is still near 50/50. Zr0fx's sample size of 20 is not nearly enough.
Nordic this struck me as a really interesting and surprising claim, since my rough impression was that there was more of an imbalance. But I'm not sure I agree with you. You say "I am not saying that the decisions the developers made are perfectly balanced, I am saying that the sky isn't falling. The game balance is still near 50/50." Based on the context, I assume that you mean to say that the sky isn't falling *with respect to high level play*. You defend this by looking at 200 games with an average skill of about 1850. Now, while I don't have data to support this, my impression is that what the comp scene views as high level play typically involves a much higher average skill. (You yourself note that the average skill of games played with tournament mode was 2364, which sounds about right.) But if so, then I can only assume that the number of high level games included in the 200 you mention is quite low - probably below 100. And if that is correct, then it seems that you really can't make any statistically significant generalization about whether high level play remains balanced with the recent changes. In particular, you seem to be no more justified in claiming that the sky *isn't* falling (with respect to high level play) than are others who claim that it is. And if the data doesn't yield a verdict either way, why not trust the judgment of the comp players who are almost unanimously saying that balance is off?
I guess they don't want a hidden mechanic. Is is possible to give gorges a skill based movement mechanic without making it non intuitive? Something that makes sense right away? Maybe change the way belly slide works.
You could adapt the lerk flying mechanic to belly slide, so that if you shift tab, you push yourself off with your gorge feet and if you shift hold, you belly slide.
It would also work as a combat dodge mechanic, so that you can push yourself off and belly slide in any direction. Like a gorge belly slide shadow step?
Not every movement ability is a hidden mechanic. Come on, there is NO game where you know everything as a rookie. But the devs still want that for the NS2 rookie though. WHY? The gorge movement in comp mod is more balanced and it is FUN! Making belly slide faster to not have a "hidden mechanic" is terrible because it is not fun to play. Give more movement options. Okay, maybe a complete noob will not be able to keep up with a Veteran gorge in Terms of speed then, but really, it is a good tthing, it means rookies can learn something and it means rookies can improves and they can discover that they got more movement options what is more FUN. It will Help keeping the rookie motivated more than having a very Basic very boring movement system.
Also you could make a gorge tutorial so every rookie can learn at the very start what you can do with a gorge.
Just stop making everything simple and add more options, depth and fun to the game.
I remember reading those comments a while back and thinking "Wow, none of these people have even tried it" based on their reasoning. Just afraid because it has "bhop" in the name. Shit, you can tell from that screenshot that whoever submitted the ticket hadn't even tried it and doesn't like it because the name implies it's difficult when in reality it's literally "slide and jump". such difficulty.
edit: I also question the legitimacy of the votes. I remember looking at that page before "Do not implement bunnyhop" existed, only "Gorge bunnyhop" which was one of the top voted suggestions. Then within a month I look and "Do not implement bunnyhop" is nearly the top most voted item with only 1 (3 of them are calling the votes sketchy) comment. the pro-bhop suggestion had at least 16 of back and forth conversation.
I can give you the best numbers I can for high skilled games. I limited the 1658 games played in B297 to the top 200 most skilled games. The average skill increased from 1377 to 1849. Aliens won 51.5% of games, and marines won 48.5% of games. So yes, even higher skilled games still have near 50/50 win rates.
I can also tell you that from B279 to B297 that there were 2807 games that had tournament mode turned on. These were competitive matches. In those games, the average hive skill was 2364. Aliens won 52.1% of games, and marines won 47.9% of games. I would do a similar B296 to B297 for tournament mode but the sample sizes are in single digits. There is just not enough data to compare.
It is difficult to get data on games of really high skill. The top 10% of skill starts at about 2100 hive skill. These players don't always play together, and often mix with lower skilled players. I agree that the top top end of skill is not well represented in the data, because there just aren't enough of them. That does not change my point. I am not saying that the decisions the developers made are perfectly balanced, I am saying that the sky isn't falling. The game balance is still near 50/50. Zr0fx's sample size of 20 is not nearly enough.
Nordic this struck me as a really interesting and surprising claim, since my rough impression was that there was more of an imbalance. But I'm not sure I agree with you. You say "I am not saying that the decisions the developers made are perfectly balanced, I am saying that the sky isn't falling. The game balance is still near 50/50." Based on the context, I assume that you mean to say that the sky isn't falling *with respect to high level play*. You defend this by looking at 200 games with an average skill of about 1850. Now, while I don't have data to support this, my impression is that what the comp scene views as high level play typically involves a much higher average skill. (You yourself note that the average skill of games played with tournament mode was 2364, which sounds about right.) But if so, then I can only assume that the number of high level games included in the 200 you mention is quite low - probably below 100. And if that is correct, then it seems that you really can't make any statistically significant generalization about whether high level play remains balanced with the recent changes. In particular, you seem to be no more justified in claiming that the sky *isn't* falling (with respect to high level play) than are others who claim that it is. And if the data doesn't yield a verdict either way, why not trust the judgment of the comp players who are almost unanimously saying that balance is off?
I don't think I am communicating my point well if I said it twice, and yet it is still not understood. I will try to expand on my words and say it in a different way.
By saying "...the sky isn't falling..." I mean that it is not as bad as many people are making it out to be. To me it seems as though many players are saying balance is poor, and that this is what is killing the community. I did not say "the high level community" because I did not mean the high level community. I am trying to say that even though some, including myself, may dislike some of the changes it does not mean that the game is imbalanced. As I have shown with the data, the game is still just as balanced as it was before.
Migalski made a good point that my data may not reflect the highest levels of skill in the game. He is correct. This just not change my point that I expanded on in the above paragraph because I was not speaking about the highest levels of skill. Balance in ns2 is still near 50/50.
Hobbes, you say I defend my point by looking at the top 200 games in b297. I was not doing that to defend my point. I was doing that to show the limitations of my data. That is at least how I read it, and how I intended it. It seems that was not made clear.
I even started the paragraph by saying "I can give you the best numbers I can." The best numbers I had for top level play in b297 had an average skill level of 1849. This shows that my data does not reflect the highest level of skill in the game.
Hobbes, you said "I can only assume that the number of high level games included in the 200 you mention is quite low." This is true if you only use tournament mode games. You assumed correct, and I stated as much in the post you quoted. I said "I would do a similar B296 to B297 for tournament mode but the sample sizes are in single digits. There is just not enough data to compare."
I even explained why it is hard to get data on really high skill games. "It is difficult to get data on games of really high skill. The top 10% of skill starts at about 2100 hive skill. These players don't always play together, and often mix with lower skilled players. I agree that the top top end of skill is not well represented in the data, because there just aren't enough of them." To add to that, b297 may have single digit tournament mode games but b296 wasn't much higher. There are EXTREMELY few of these high level games that average 2300 hive skill. Comp games only made of 5% of the games from b279 to b297. There are very few players of high skill to begin with.
So no, my data does not reflect high level games. If I had not made that clear, it should be now. The limitations of my data should be clear. This does not change my point that the balance in ns2 is near 50/50.
Also, just being picky on this one. "Average skill of games played with tournament mode was 2364, which sounds about right." It is not about right, it is right. The data I used for most of these statistics was from sponitor which collects from every server.
_____________________________________________________________________________
"why not trust the judgment of the comp players who are almost unanimously saying that balance is off?"
I want to address this separately because it does not relate to my prior points, and because I don't have data to back it up.
I don't agree with several of the decisions UWE have made recently. I think the comp community got the short end of the stick on season 9. I think high level players can have great insight into balance. Even with all of this, I am skeptical of the comp communities judgement on balance.
I may not like a decision, but I am glad they are at least trying something. I am glad they are being bold, and are willing to try new things. I dislike healthbars for example, but I respect UWE has the balls to try something like that.
UWE has recently began experimenting with balance. I expected a much greater shift in balance in ns2. I think NS2's balance is fickle and any change could have unintended consequences. The fact is the effect on balance was minimal.
I expect that the very top end would experience the greatest imbalances. But 68% alien win rates are ridiculous and just false. The sample size was low. 55% alien win rates would be more believable but then again, nobody knows. I don't have data to know the win rates, and I won't trust gut feelings on win rates.
I think the comp community is overly emotional right now. I think they were already outraged from other things but justified and unjustified. The comp community has gotten the short end of the stick in recent times. I think many or most of these outraged players were looking for reasons to criticize and put forth hate towards UWE.
If the high level community is saying that the highest levels are unbalanced, I believe them. I do not believe how extreme they are making it out to be. I will not trust gut feelings about win rates. I think the comp community was primed for conflict. Because of this, I am skeptical about the comp communities judgment on balance.
On a related but separate note, I do see UWE listening to feedback. They are just not making the decisions that the most vocal of players want. UWE is experimenting with balance. Many of these balance changes are heavily influenced by comp mod. UWE is putting in some of the best parts of ns2+ into vanilla ns2.
Being 50/50 is not the sole indicator of balance. There is more to it than that. But my string of posts started by me responding to a guy following the logic that ns2 should be balanced for 50/50 win rates.
Thanks for the reply Nordic. Despite what you say here, it still seems to me that your original comment (which I quoted in my post) was clearly trying to support a point about the balance of high level play - but who cares, because it seems like we agree that we don't have hard data shedding light (either way) on this balance. Now, one question is whether we should care about high level balance (as opposed to only the balance for ns2 more generally), but let's assume that we do care. Without any data on this point, I'm inclined to look to the closest thing we have to experts on high level balance, and those are the top players. But you think this is wrong, because you think that the judgment of high level players is being clouded by emotion and hard feelings toward UWE. And you also think that high level balance is probably more or less fine, based on your own judgment (unclouded by emotion, presumably). I don't have a lot to say about this, mainly because it's just a report of your own gut feelings, but I do want to say this: Sure, there are plenty of whiners and drama queens in the comp scene poised to go into histrionics whenever a simple change is made, but there are also plenty of extremely smart people who have spent countless hours playing and thinking about this game. To just dismiss their opinions in this way strikes me as pretty unfair, and I hope that UWE doesn't share this attitude, or else they will soon be losing many of their most loyal players.
Being 50/50 is not the sole indicator of balance. There is more to it than that. But my string of posts started by me responding to a guy following the logic that ns2 should be balanced for 50/50 win rates.
I think IN THEORY the game should be balanced so that in a perfect world, where both teams are perfectly evenly matched in terms of individual players skill, the game should end in a draw. IN THEORY the better team should ALWAYS win.
I shouldn't have used my pathetically small sample size stats to try to prove my point, but I don't have much else at this point other than "my opinion":
-The increased pres rate makes losing lifeforms feel irrelevant.
-Being able to parasite using rupture is unfair, because parasite is already super powerful, the problem is bad players don't realize how powerful it is.
-Being able to drop lifeform eggs is a bad idea, which also helps make lifeforms feel disposable.
-The vanilla game is currently alien sided. 6v6 is HEAVILY alien sided. It's not terrible in 8v8, with the help of ExtraIPs from Shine, and I imagine it might actually be balanced in 10v10-12v12 as long as marine comm is smart enough to know he needs to drop 2 more IPs.
-Healthbars make Aura not worth taking. Silent lerks are now super OP and silent fade can be OP sometimes.
-As a developer of a multiplayer FPS, you should be much more concerned with maintaining your competitive community than "shaking up" gameplay or "retaining new players".
You will never achieve perfect balance on an assymetric game, balance & skill translates from the top down not the other way around. If you balance the game at its highest level, that will translate to the lower levels by default.
Comp had their own internal balance team, if UWE adopted their changes years ago and balanced around that instead, we would of not had any of these issues.
Not every movement ability is a hidden mechanic. Come on, there is NO game where you know everything as a rookie. But the devs still want that for the NS2 rookie though. WHY? The gorge movement in comp mod is more balanced and it is FUN! Making belly slide faster to not have a "hidden mechanic" is terrible because it is not fun to play. Give more movement options. Okay, maybe a complete noob will not be able to keep up with a Veteran gorge in Terms of speed then, but really, it is a good tthing, it means rookies can learn something and it means rookies can improves and they can discover that they got more movement options what is more FUN. It will Help keeping the rookie motivated more than having a very Basic very boring movement system.
Also you could make a gorge tutorial so every rookie can learn at the very start what you can do with a gorge.
Just stop making everything simple and add more options, depth and fun to the game.
In fact I didn't thought about it that way tbh.
Removing skulk walljump and increasing the walking speed to be equal to walljump would be boring aswell...
So I agree you have a point there
edit: I also question the legitimacy of the votes. I remember looking at that page before "Do not implement bunnyhop" existed, only "Gorge bunnyhop" which was one of the top voted suggestions. Then within a month I look and "Do not implement bunnyhop" is nearly the top most voted item with only 1 (3 of them are calling the votes sketchy) comment. the pro-bhop suggestion had at least 16 of back and forth conversation.
So when it doesn't fit your view there most be something wrong with the voters or the voting system, but if it does it was the voice of democracy. Sounds like the people from some far-left party in my country.
You might give the comments in "Gorge bunnyhop" a look. Many if not most are against the idea. Note that you can't give a thumbs-down, which is the reason why the ticket "Do not implement bunnyhop" was created in the first place (one month after "Gorge bunnyhop"). On the other hand, there's less need for agreeable comments when you can give a thumbs-up.
Comments
I know, but haven't the current devs shown that they're interested in competive balance by taking over most of the comp mod changes?
If cyst hp and life form eggs are biggest problems in order to play vanillia competitively, then I think its on a good way.
No, when you look at the last updates, you can see that they have shown that they are interested to balance around lowest level of play (rookies) and 12vs12.
exactly.
Healthbars, the stupid idea about "alien beacon" when your lifeform dies, faster pres to get your lifeform back more quickly and everything is marking you now and for a longer time, primeable power.
nobody asked for this changes. especially not the comp players.
If i would be a dev i would try to cooperate with the players who now the game best. and that are the comp players. So i would try to implement the compmod in the game.
I'm glad there are finally movements on that front. Also something needs to be done to make this more engaging for Rookies.
I'm guessing you're talking about the health bars, but I don't see how this shows an interest in balancing around the lowest level of play. It shows that they're interested in lowering the entry level for this game. Yes, it does affect gameplay and therefore balance, but I think that most people are either exaggerating the effects or unjustly rate the effects as bad, because it may not provide the gameplay that we're used to.
I don't see what change is aimed specifically at 12vs12 though? The rapture change?
Yes to official comp mode.
New changes are great if your a new player, never to have played Ns2 before, or even a returning player from days of younder.
If you have been around from the start and are still here playing, then some of these changes maybe bad, Health bars? more annoying than usful but i can see what your aimming for, maybe only have these on rookie only?
But to my main point on Comp, Should there be a mod? Yes, or at least some type of tournament mode that can be used to help test new changes, build upon and have a proper feedback built in so maybe after each round played, players can submit said feedback.
So simply gonna repost.
I posted similar things already on: http://www.ensl.org/topics/1689#post_21943
1) I remember some games ns2 included that have a choice box on startup
(back in the days it was the choice between the launch pad and start ns2)
looks like that:
Can we not have the same for NS2 comp and NS2 instead of a different branches ?
2) Or a starting parameter for "ns2.exe -comp" to launch in comp mod.
With both possibility's:
The Patch size will increases but its a 1 time download.
instead of switching Branches that makes multiple downloads.
Its better for people with slow internet/volume based internet or no ssds/Slow Pcs.
leave alone the time you have to take to always switch back and forth in branches every time you want to switch to NS2 or Comp.
Comp mod was made because it improved glaring problems with the game and made it more fun; ever thought that these changes might make it more fun for new players?
e.g.
I still think that making gorge bhop a vanilla feature will massively improve games because strong players can go gorge and actually be effective instead of going skulk/lifeform and stomping or going vanilla gorge and being useless.
however, like any good movement mechanic, there's a more advanced method people can strive to learn. golden has a decent video on it. if you're familiar with strafe jumping you'll pick it up in a few minutes.
i have two videos of myself playing gorge competitively where you can see the bhop used throughout in actual games. first , second (div1 finals)
What if I told you that all the things you just mentioned are being worked on in their own way
Nordic this struck me as a really interesting and surprising claim, since my rough impression was that there was more of an imbalance. But I'm not sure I agree with you. You say "I am not saying that the decisions the developers made are perfectly balanced, I am saying that the sky isn't falling. The game balance is still near 50/50." Based on the context, I assume that you mean to say that the sky isn't falling *with respect to high level play*. You defend this by looking at 200 games with an average skill of about 1850. Now, while I don't have data to support this, my impression is that what the comp scene views as high level play typically involves a much higher average skill. (You yourself note that the average skill of games played with tournament mode was 2364, which sounds about right.) But if so, then I can only assume that the number of high level games included in the 200 you mention is quite low - probably below 100. And if that is correct, then it seems that you really can't make any statistically significant generalization about whether high level play remains balanced with the recent changes. In particular, you seem to be no more justified in claiming that the sky *isn't* falling (with respect to high level play) than are others who claim that it is. And if the data doesn't yield a verdict either way, why not trust the judgment of the comp players who are almost unanimously saying that balance is off?
https://trello.com/c/TmHGQRIT/258-improve-gorge-belly-sliding
I guess they don't want a hidden mechanic. Is is possible to give gorges a skill based movement mechanic without making it non intuitive? Something that makes sense right away? Maybe change the way belly slide works.
You could adapt the lerk flying mechanic to belly slide, so that if you shift tab, you push yourself off with your gorge feet and if you shift hold, you belly slide.
It would also work as a combat dodge mechanic, so that you can push yourself off and belly slide in any direction. Like a gorge belly slide shadow step?
Also you could make a gorge tutorial so every rookie can learn at the very start what you can do with a gorge.
Just stop making everything simple and add more options, depth and fun to the game.
edit: I also question the legitimacy of the votes. I remember looking at that page before "Do not implement bunnyhop" existed, only "Gorge bunnyhop" which was one of the top voted suggestions. Then within a month I look and "Do not implement bunnyhop" is nearly the top most voted item with only 1 (3 of them are calling the votes sketchy) comment. the pro-bhop suggestion had at least 16 of back and forth conversation.
I don't think I am communicating my point well if I said it twice, and yet it is still not understood. I will try to expand on my words and say it in a different way.
By saying "...the sky isn't falling..." I mean that it is not as bad as many people are making it out to be. To me it seems as though many players are saying balance is poor, and that this is what is killing the community. I did not say "the high level community" because I did not mean the high level community. I am trying to say that even though some, including myself, may dislike some of the changes it does not mean that the game is imbalanced. As I have shown with the data, the game is still just as balanced as it was before.
Migalski made a good point that my data may not reflect the highest levels of skill in the game. He is correct. This just not change my point that I expanded on in the above paragraph because I was not speaking about the highest levels of skill. Balance in ns2 is still near 50/50.
Hobbes, you say I defend my point by looking at the top 200 games in b297. I was not doing that to defend my point. I was doing that to show the limitations of my data. That is at least how I read it, and how I intended it. It seems that was not made clear.
I even started the paragraph by saying "I can give you the best numbers I can." The best numbers I had for top level play in b297 had an average skill level of 1849. This shows that my data does not reflect the highest level of skill in the game.
Hobbes, you said "I can only assume that the number of high level games included in the 200 you mention is quite low." This is true if you only use tournament mode games. You assumed correct, and I stated as much in the post you quoted. I said "I would do a similar B296 to B297 for tournament mode but the sample sizes are in single digits. There is just not enough data to compare."
I even explained why it is hard to get data on really high skill games. "It is difficult to get data on games of really high skill. The top 10% of skill starts at about 2100 hive skill. These players don't always play together, and often mix with lower skilled players. I agree that the top top end of skill is not well represented in the data, because there just aren't enough of them." To add to that, b297 may have single digit tournament mode games but b296 wasn't much higher. There are EXTREMELY few of these high level games that average 2300 hive skill. Comp games only made of 5% of the games from b279 to b297. There are very few players of high skill to begin with.
So no, my data does not reflect high level games. If I had not made that clear, it should be now. The limitations of my data should be clear. This does not change my point that the balance in ns2 is near 50/50.
Also, just being picky on this one. "Average skill of games played with tournament mode was 2364, which sounds about right." It is not about right, it is right. The data I used for most of these statistics was from sponitor which collects from every server.
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"why not trust the judgment of the comp players who are almost unanimously saying that balance is off?"
I want to address this separately because it does not relate to my prior points, and because I don't have data to back it up.
I don't agree with several of the decisions UWE have made recently. I think the comp community got the short end of the stick on season 9. I think high level players can have great insight into balance. Even with all of this, I am skeptical of the comp communities judgement on balance.
I may not like a decision, but I am glad they are at least trying something. I am glad they are being bold, and are willing to try new things. I dislike healthbars for example, but I respect UWE has the balls to try something like that.
UWE has recently began experimenting with balance. I expected a much greater shift in balance in ns2. I think NS2's balance is fickle and any change could have unintended consequences. The fact is the effect on balance was minimal.
I expect that the very top end would experience the greatest imbalances. But 68% alien win rates are ridiculous and just false. The sample size was low. 55% alien win rates would be more believable but then again, nobody knows. I don't have data to know the win rates, and I won't trust gut feelings on win rates.
I think the comp community is overly emotional right now. I think they were already outraged from other things but justified and unjustified. The comp community has gotten the short end of the stick in recent times. I think many or most of these outraged players were looking for reasons to criticize and put forth hate towards UWE.
If the high level community is saying that the highest levels are unbalanced, I believe them. I do not believe how extreme they are making it out to be. I will not trust gut feelings about win rates. I think the comp community was primed for conflict. Because of this, I am skeptical about the comp communities judgment on balance.
On a related but separate note, I do see UWE listening to feedback. They are just not making the decisions that the most vocal of players want. UWE is experimenting with balance. Many of these balance changes are heavily influenced by comp mod. UWE is putting in some of the best parts of ns2+ into vanilla ns2.
Thanks for the reply Nordic. Despite what you say here, it still seems to me that your original comment (which I quoted in my post) was clearly trying to support a point about the balance of high level play - but who cares, because it seems like we agree that we don't have hard data shedding light (either way) on this balance. Now, one question is whether we should care about high level balance (as opposed to only the balance for ns2 more generally), but let's assume that we do care. Without any data on this point, I'm inclined to look to the closest thing we have to experts on high level balance, and those are the top players. But you think this is wrong, because you think that the judgment of high level players is being clouded by emotion and hard feelings toward UWE. And you also think that high level balance is probably more or less fine, based on your own judgment (unclouded by emotion, presumably). I don't have a lot to say about this, mainly because it's just a report of your own gut feelings, but I do want to say this: Sure, there are plenty of whiners and drama queens in the comp scene poised to go into histrionics whenever a simple change is made, but there are also plenty of extremely smart people who have spent countless hours playing and thinking about this game. To just dismiss their opinions in this way strikes me as pretty unfair, and I hope that UWE doesn't share this attitude, or else they will soon be losing many of their most loyal players.
I think IN THEORY the game should be balanced so that in a perfect world, where both teams are perfectly evenly matched in terms of individual players skill, the game should end in a draw. IN THEORY the better team should ALWAYS win.
I shouldn't have used my pathetically small sample size stats to try to prove my point, but I don't have much else at this point other than "my opinion":
-The increased pres rate makes losing lifeforms feel irrelevant.
-Being able to parasite using rupture is unfair, because parasite is already super powerful, the problem is bad players don't realize how powerful it is.
-Being able to drop lifeform eggs is a bad idea, which also helps make lifeforms feel disposable.
-The vanilla game is currently alien sided. 6v6 is HEAVILY alien sided. It's not terrible in 8v8, with the help of ExtraIPs from Shine, and I imagine it might actually be balanced in 10v10-12v12 as long as marine comm is smart enough to know he needs to drop 2 more IPs.
-Healthbars make Aura not worth taking. Silent lerks are now super OP and silent fade can be OP sometimes.
-As a developer of a multiplayer FPS, you should be much more concerned with maintaining your competitive community than "shaking up" gameplay or "retaining new players".
UWE killed NSL confirmed.
Comp had their own internal balance team, if UWE adopted their changes years ago and balanced around that instead, we would of not had any of these issues.
In fact I didn't thought about it that way tbh.
Removing skulk walljump and increasing the walking speed to be equal to walljump would be boring aswell...
So I agree you have a point there
You might give the comments in "Gorge bunnyhop" a look. Many if not most are against the idea. Note that you can't give a thumbs-down, which is the reason why the ticket "Do not implement bunnyhop" was created in the first place (one month after "Gorge bunnyhop"). On the other hand, there's less need for agreeable comments when you can give a thumbs-up.