Jokes are risky, sometimes. I've been burned before after making jokes. The forum rules don't belabor what is and isn't "jokes", so I won't. You either figure out the boundaries after multiple moderation actions, or you don't.
Wow, that seems like the best way of dealing with this possible. "Stop having fun. If you want to have fun, you'll figure out what's allowed and what not after a few bans. Maybe."
Jokes are risky, sometimes. I've been burned before after making jokes. The forum rules don't belabor what is and isn't "jokes", so I won't. You either figure out the boundaries after multiple moderation actions, or you don't.
Translation: I make up the rules as I go along and I won't define them for people to find fault.
I tried competitive and did gathers a long time ago. I even managed to get on a div 1 team back in beta, although I really shouldn't of been skill wise at the time. I have done two newcomer tournaments which I found to be enjoyable.
I want to have an outlet for higher skilled games. I often get annoyed with pub skill levels. I respect what competitive ns2 is. I want to participate.
What keeps me from playing in a team, or gathers is the attitude. I am not speaking about toxic players, of which there are not all that many in comp. I am speaking about the negativity coming from many players in the comp community.
It is not that they call me names, or make fun of my skill, or anything like that. I could care less. Being around that negativity is not fun. It reminded me of my old middle school friends who constantly complained about the most trivial of things. I am not saying comp players complain about trivial things, or are middle school kids, but the negativity expressed is the same.
There are players I liked who went into competitive and picked up that negativity that I can not be around anymore. There are other players I know that tried competitive like me and also could not take the negativity, some realized it sooner than others. I know a lot of comp players who are great people but when with other comp players express that negativity. Not every competitive player expresses this negativity.
You may say that I can find that in other games, and that is true. That does not mean the negativity needs to be in NS2. You can say that you can find it in life, which is true. I avoid those kinds of people, and if provoked, tell them what they are like.
You may call it a competitive attitude, being toxic, or being salty but that is not it. It is being negative. There is being competitive and being negative. They are not inherently the same thing. Something is wrong with the culture of our competitive community. I call it negativity. Regardless of its name, it is poor behavior.
I want to participate in competitive play. I am even told that the most toxic of players are now banned. I have been meaning to try gathers again because of that. I am just too reluctant to spend what time I am gaming with players that I can not have a good time with.
Don't mistake me for asking for a safe space. I hate that safe space crap that has been going around. That is not what I am getting at.
The competitive community has needed to change. They could have a lot more players in competitive if the culture wasn't so negative. The sad part is that it looks like the competitive community is going to self destruct instead.
Or you could make a team/find a team that was completely negative? Not every team was the same. You would never find that on good teams such as Lucky Chams, Vanquish. Every person is different, every team is different. If you can't handle some negativity however you really shouldn't play competitive, most players play to win, if you happen to lose some 1v1's that you shouldn't or make a dumb play and cost a phase gate, well you just screwed your team over, and when you're trying to win, it sucks.
And more often than not those toxic players would be their own downfall for the team.
It is not just some negativity. It is A LOT of negativity. It is not even that I was the target of the negativity. I want to be 100% clear that it has little to do with how I personally have been treated. As I said, I could care less about that. Personal attacks may be apart of it, but it not all of it.
You don't seem to understand what I mean by negativity or how prevalent it is. Negativity is just not fun to be around be it in competitive ns2 or a bus ride home.
It is not just some negativity. It is A LOT of negativity. It is not even that I was the target of the negativity. I want to be 100% clear that it has little to do with how I personally have been treated. As I said, I could care less about that. Personal attacks may be apart of it, but it not all of it.
You don't seem to understand what I mean by negativity or how prevalent it is. Negativity is just not fun to be around be it in competitive ns2 or a bus ride home.
That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity. It has been indeed true those last months but most of the lifetime of the NSL proves otherwise.
You won't convince them Pelar, they won't change their prejudice. they didn't follow the up or down of the comp community the last few years and only live it through this forum when issues were brought here. Not everybody has the ability to stand back from a situation or emphasize with other's opinion.
Anyway, the majority of the comp players are moving on, even if they are staying in touch between each others (i guess playing thousands of hours with the same people doesn't bring only negativity). What you heard on this forum was the last death ratel of a dying community receiving a fatal blow, a community which ironically is still alive outside ns2.
They won't bother you as much with their whining now
I wouldn’t generalize the whole comp community. Plenty of players that are extremely courteous, professional, and constructive. You have to understand that NS2 can get pretty intense, especially when you start to play on a higher level, with people that are close to or more skilled than you are. You’re passionate and fully invested at this point. It’s only natural that heated moments evoke an emotional response to some degree. Laying it on the line in crucial moments, going all in, trying your very best to achieve something as a team is the thrill and beauty of competitive. Sparks will fly. This is also why comp players love to analyze every detail, what worked and what went wrong. Some people tend take it a bit over the edge (coughschu) and some choose to act more professional. But you can’t really blame them for being overly passionate. Those that take it way over the line, are obviously moderated. The NSL has a fairly rigid sportsmanlike conduct policy. When I first started out I was the new guy, and was pretty bad on the comp scene. Yes there were negative people that told me some nasty discouraging things, but it took some time until I built up a rep and earned the respect. This is true of any competitive scene.
My point is, you will always encounter people displaying negative/butt hurt attitudes everywhere you go, that’s just life. I’d understand if the whole comp community was rotted to its core with negativity, but it is not. The competitive scene may not be for everyone. However, “negativity” and “toxicity” is a factor, not a cause.
That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity. It has been indeed true those last months but most of the lifetime of the NSL proves otherwise.
If I did not make it clear enough in my first post, I don't mean it is all of comp, but in my experience it is very prevalent. I am just one man with one opinion. What has been seen the last few months is just the extreme of what I have seen for years.
That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity. It has been indeed true those last months but most of the lifetime of the NSL proves otherwise.
If I did not make it clear enough in my first post, I don't mean it is all of comp, but in my experience it is very prevalent. I am just one man with one opinion. What has been seen the last few months is just the extreme of what I have seen for years.
You've put effort to say what sort of attitude and behaviour it isn't but you haven't been very explicit in what you actually mean.
Are you talking about attitudes like players getting uninvested in a game because say, tactically a team has lost the battle because marines/aliens have held res for too long?
A lot of players end up reading the game in a way that's different to the pub attitude. Life forms down or key structures destroyed are times when people feel like they're pressing the attack but sometimes it's already GG because one team has quietly teched up to end game on 5+ rts while the fight's been on your territory and losing their forward base meant time for them to come back with jp's etc. to finish the job.
I remember someone saying that if a game isn't clearly won by 15 minutes then both teams have screwed up. It's an interesting outlook but not one pub players are going to consider when they regularly play long games.
But over lots of shorter games against players you come to know very well; people tend to start making long form reads even in places they shouldn't.
In any case player psyche is always important in a competitive game. How many skilled players/teams win matches by not just playing the field but the players as well? Quite a number I'm sure.
I'll echo what _mod says, you say a lot yet so little. Such a huge post with nothing but vague remarks to "negativity". Why not demand for world peace while at it?
I ventured to comp NS1 over 10 years ago, and have since been playing various different games with the people from this scene. Haven't touched NS2 seriously in over a year, it's sad that from last nights experiment pubs we did, performance looks actually stellar and what it should've been 3 years ago. In 15 hours i will put all my excess hours to Overwatch. With the same friends (and some new) i've gotten from competitive Natural Selection.
That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity.
I am tired of these straw man arguments.. did nordic, poneh, or me ever say the NSL has "always shown" anything?
No.. we are individuals giving our personal anecdotal experiences.
There really is no room to argue with such subjective accounts... so I understand why so many are attempting to clarify for others with "it's really not that bad" or "it's just a competitive attitude" or "those players exist everywhere".. which is fine, but there's just no arguing with our individual impressions and experiences as they're our opinion.
I am sure that's a hard opinion to just accept, because it implies that there was a flaw when it came to bringing more people into competitive environments.. maybe it wasn't all sunshine, rainbows and friends for those who attempted. But IMHO your time would be better spent addressing the specific bad experiences with suggestions on how to deal with it, avoid it entirely, report it so it can be fixed etc. and just generally recognizing that it does exist, at least in the perception of certain individuals - instead of attempting to use what I consider to be weak excuses for that behavior (those quotes) and strawman arguments. I suppose it matters less now that the scene has left, however, so maybe its too late anyways.. but addressing that such an experience occurs for some (and that it's undesirable) would at least be a start.
Yeah guys, you don't need to argue about subjectives opinions. In fact i'm going to argue about how arguing about a sujective argument is useless, not because i like arguing but because i think it's important to see that, with argumentation, we can progress and build a better world. Now with that said i think my opinion is more important than yours, that's why you shouldn't argue with me (or argue to the fact that you are not allowed to argue with me). Happy arguing everybody !
I am tired of these straw man arguments.. did nordic, poneh, or me ever say the NSL has "always shown" anything?
No.. we are individuals giving our personal anecdotal experiences.
I am tired of these straw man arguments.. did nordic, poneh, or me ever say the NSL has "always shown" anything?
No.. we are individuals giving our personal anecdotal experiences.
Did I say you did?
You implied we did, yes, by responding with that as your rebuttal.
Recap : Users say they haven't had a good experience. Your only response is that it's unfair to say such because it's not always like that.
They never said that was the case, and in fact were pretty clear about it being a personal, anecdotal experience.
But IMHO your time would be better spent addressing the specific bad experiences with suggestions on how to deal with it, avoid it entirely, report it so it can be fixed etc. and just generally recognizing that it does exist, at least in the perception of certain individuals
That was part of the NSL admins and moderators job, to police the community and follow their general guidelines on behaviour. However I didn't see anyone give any specifics situations that can be fixed, just that they had bad experiences.
I'm not questioning anyone's perception in their own eyes. It's just hard to find a specific solution, when others, such as myself, have had completely opposing experiences. I made a lot of friends and had a lot of fun playing pugs/gathers/mixes over the years.
Some people above were genuinely trying to give solutions and to empathize, but it's difficult to give more than just generalisations if you don't explain specifically what occurred.
Nordic talked about disliking some peoples attitude. I have no idea what specific events took place to annoy him so much, so it's hard to understand and therefore to provide any suggestions on what could be done in the community to improve it or how to deal with it; other than what he did, which was to avoid it.
But it's probably for the best that you don't name and shame, especially on these forums. My advice to you back when the events took place would have been to contact the admins and explain what happened, the person would have been warned to cut it out. Or make friends, have fun, and ignore the douchebags. If that means avoiding the entire competitive scene then so be it I guess.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Very well said, thank you.
I wasn't even aware that one could report that behavior to anyone, (where would one do this btw?) I just took it as an accepted part of the culture.
Maybe if this were to have been more apparent to newcomers there might've been a higher retention rate in that community? No one can say for certain I suppose.
I wasn't even aware that one could report that behavior to anyone, (where would one do this btw?) I just took it as an accepted part of the culture.
Maybe if this were to have been more apparent to newcomers there might've been a higher retention rate in that community? No one can say for certain I suppose.
There is an issues tab in your ENSL dashboard which allows people to report people as well as site issues, I believe. There are also moderators you can talk to, which is how those concerns are primarily addressed. A few of the strongly toxic players were banned from playing gathers for their behavior in the past, so it is something that has been done.
Comments
Wow, that seems like the best way of dealing with this possible. "Stop having fun. If you want to have fun, you'll figure out what's allowed and what not after a few bans. Maybe."
Translation: I make up the rules as I go along and I won't define them for people to find fault.
I tried competitive and did gathers a long time ago. I even managed to get on a div 1 team back in beta, although I really shouldn't of been skill wise at the time. I have done two newcomer tournaments which I found to be enjoyable.
I want to have an outlet for higher skilled games. I often get annoyed with pub skill levels. I respect what competitive ns2 is. I want to participate.
What keeps me from playing in a team, or gathers is the attitude. I am not speaking about toxic players, of which there are not all that many in comp. I am speaking about the negativity coming from many players in the comp community.
It is not that they call me names, or make fun of my skill, or anything like that. I could care less. Being around that negativity is not fun. It reminded me of my old middle school friends who constantly complained about the most trivial of things. I am not saying comp players complain about trivial things, or are middle school kids, but the negativity expressed is the same.
There are players I liked who went into competitive and picked up that negativity that I can not be around anymore. There are other players I know that tried competitive like me and also could not take the negativity, some realized it sooner than others. I know a lot of comp players who are great people but when with other comp players express that negativity. Not every competitive player expresses this negativity.
You may say that I can find that in other games, and that is true. That does not mean the negativity needs to be in NS2. You can say that you can find it in life, which is true. I avoid those kinds of people, and if provoked, tell them what they are like.
You may call it a competitive attitude, being toxic, or being salty but that is not it. It is being negative. There is being competitive and being negative. They are not inherently the same thing. Something is wrong with the culture of our competitive community. I call it negativity. Regardless of its name, it is poor behavior.
I want to participate in competitive play. I am even told that the most toxic of players are now banned. I have been meaning to try gathers again because of that. I am just too reluctant to spend what time I am gaming with players that I can not have a good time with.
Don't mistake me for asking for a safe space. I hate that safe space crap that has been going around. That is not what I am getting at.
The competitive community has needed to change. They could have a lot more players in competitive if the culture wasn't so negative. The sad part is that it looks like the competitive community is going to self destruct instead.
And more often than not those toxic players would be their own downfall for the team.
You don't seem to understand what I mean by negativity or how prevalent it is. Negativity is just not fun to be around be it in competitive ns2 or a bus ride home.
That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity. It has been indeed true those last months but most of the lifetime of the NSL proves otherwise.
Anyway, the majority of the comp players are moving on, even if they are staying in touch between each others (i guess playing thousands of hours with the same people doesn't bring only negativity). What you heard on this forum was the last death ratel of a dying community receiving a fatal blow, a community which ironically is still alive outside ns2.
They won't bother you as much with their whining now
Edit : oh and it's called an analogy
My point is, you will always encounter people displaying negative/butt hurt attitudes everywhere you go, that’s just life. I’d understand if the whole comp community was rotted to its core with negativity, but it is not. The competitive scene may not be for everyone. However, “negativity” and “toxicity” is a factor, not a cause.
You've put effort to say what sort of attitude and behaviour it isn't but you haven't been very explicit in what you actually mean.
Are you talking about attitudes like players getting uninvested in a game because say, tactically a team has lost the battle because marines/aliens have held res for too long?
A lot of players end up reading the game in a way that's different to the pub attitude. Life forms down or key structures destroyed are times when people feel like they're pressing the attack but sometimes it's already GG because one team has quietly teched up to end game on 5+ rts while the fight's been on your territory and losing their forward base meant time for them to come back with jp's etc. to finish the job.
I remember someone saying that if a game isn't clearly won by 15 minutes then both teams have screwed up. It's an interesting outlook but not one pub players are going to consider when they regularly play long games.
But over lots of shorter games against players you come to know very well; people tend to start making long form reads even in places they shouldn't.
In any case player psyche is always important in a competitive game. How many skilled players/teams win matches by not just playing the field but the players as well? Quite a number I'm sure.
I ventured to comp NS1 over 10 years ago, and have since been playing various different games with the people from this scene. Haven't touched NS2 seriously in over a year, it's sad that from last nights experiment pubs we did, performance looks actually stellar and what it should've been 3 years ago. In 15 hours i will put all my excess hours to Overwatch. With the same friends (and some new) i've gotten from competitive Natural Selection.
Not sure, but this may be part of it
fucking great wordplay
edit: how many times has wob been banned this week and can we get a leaderboard coded @moultano
No.. we are individuals giving our personal anecdotal experiences.
There really is no room to argue with such subjective accounts... so I understand why so many are attempting to clarify for others with "it's really not that bad" or "it's just a competitive attitude" or "those players exist everywhere".. which is fine, but there's just no arguing with our individual impressions and experiences as they're our opinion.
I am sure that's a hard opinion to just accept, because it implies that there was a flaw when it came to bringing more people into competitive environments.. maybe it wasn't all sunshine, rainbows and friends for those who attempted. But IMHO your time would be better spent addressing the specific bad experiences with suggestions on how to deal with it, avoid it entirely, report it so it can be fixed etc. and just generally recognizing that it does exist, at least in the perception of certain individuals - instead of attempting to use what I consider to be weak excuses for that behavior (those quotes) and strawman arguments. I suppose it matters less now that the scene has left, however, so maybe its too late anyways.. but addressing that such an experience occurs for some (and that it's undesirable) would at least be a start.
Your sarcasm is a great example of another weak argument, that avoids addressing certain user's points, for the record.
Did I say you did?
Recap : Users say they haven't had a good experience. Your only response is that it's unfair to say such because it's not always like that.
They never said that was the case, and in fact were pretty clear about it being a personal, anecdotal experience.
Wow, this is actually one of my fav Satchmo song ! Eetheir ... Either .... Ahh
Wanna ride some good energic mood ? Watch this !
That was part of the NSL admins and moderators job, to police the community and follow their general guidelines on behaviour. However I didn't see anyone give any specifics situations that can be fixed, just that they had bad experiences.
I'm not questioning anyone's perception in their own eyes. It's just hard to find a specific solution, when others, such as myself, have had completely opposing experiences. I made a lot of friends and had a lot of fun playing pugs/gathers/mixes over the years.
Some people above were genuinely trying to give solutions and to empathize, but it's difficult to give more than just generalisations if you don't explain specifically what occurred.
Nordic talked about disliking some peoples attitude. I have no idea what specific events took place to annoy him so much, so it's hard to understand and therefore to provide any suggestions on what could be done in the community to improve it or how to deal with it; other than what he did, which was to avoid it.
But it's probably for the best that you don't name and shame, especially on these forums. My advice to you back when the events took place would have been to contact the admins and explain what happened, the person would have been warned to cut it out. Or make friends, have fun, and ignore the douchebags. If that means avoiding the entire competitive scene then so be it I guess.
I wasn't even aware that one could report that behavior to anyone, (where would one do this btw?) I just took it as an accepted part of the culture.
Maybe if this were to have been more apparent to newcomers there might've been a higher retention rate in that community? No one can say for certain I suppose.
There is an issues tab in your ENSL dashboard which allows people to report people as well as site issues, I believe. There are also moderators you can talk to, which is how those concerns are primarily addressed. A few of the strongly toxic players were banned from playing gathers for their behavior in the past, so it is something that has been done.
Breaking news, guys!
People that commit to playing a game competitively are less likely to leave than those who picked it up in a steam sale!
Oh my god that is just so amazing!!!!
Mind = blown
Wow! Now I undersantd why my rasta neighbour is still on marijuana while I quited smoking years ago