Making Humans Too Powerful Will Kill This Game
ResolutionBlaze
The Dunes Join Date: 2016-04-06 Member: 215392Members
The Dunes Join Date: 2016-04-06 Member: 215392Members
There are two things that are fun to Subnautica for me:
A) I can explore and discover new things, and always run into a new challenge (scary aspect)
I can discover new things and make goals to achieve it (survival aspect)
While I am fine with having Humans being able to defend themselves, I don't think we should make humans too powerful, or make survival so easy for humans especially. Right now, it takes maybe an hour or two for a human to begin building a base, and several hours more to get vehicles. The amount of time it takes to gather these things is pretty low.
But I fear that this game will make humans have all these cool gadgets, and make the creatures too weak or vulnerable (I am referring to the Sea Dragon's supposed "ability to hurt it with it's own fire attack" or something) and ruin the fear aspect of the game. When I built a base in the Creepvine Forest, I felt safer in those areas, despite having been terrified of them before. The more stuff we have, and the easier it is for us to survive because we have 'cool stuff', the harder it will be for this game to remain a survival game. It will just become a game where you get a bunch of stuff and you're king of the ocean, the end.
I was watching one livestream where you could just avoid Reapers until you get the Cyclops and never really have to worry about them much (oh yeah, they give you a little push, big woop) but it completely cancels out the fear aspect. They should have to FORCE you into Reaper territory to EARN that Cyclops, to EARN THE RIGHT to not "fear the Reaper". To keep you on edge, so that the only way to advance is to get through the dangerous areas.
But you can easily get almost all the content in the game without even setting foot in Reaper territory, and by then you're sailing in a big ass cyclops and you feel untouchable.
A) I can explore and discover new things, and always run into a new challenge (scary aspect)
I can discover new things and make goals to achieve it (survival aspect)While I am fine with having Humans being able to defend themselves, I don't think we should make humans too powerful, or make survival so easy for humans especially. Right now, it takes maybe an hour or two for a human to begin building a base, and several hours more to get vehicles. The amount of time it takes to gather these things is pretty low.
But I fear that this game will make humans have all these cool gadgets, and make the creatures too weak or vulnerable (I am referring to the Sea Dragon's supposed "ability to hurt it with it's own fire attack" or something) and ruin the fear aspect of the game. When I built a base in the Creepvine Forest, I felt safer in those areas, despite having been terrified of them before. The more stuff we have, and the easier it is for us to survive because we have 'cool stuff', the harder it will be for this game to remain a survival game. It will just become a game where you get a bunch of stuff and you're king of the ocean, the end.
I was watching one livestream where you could just avoid Reapers until you get the Cyclops and never really have to worry about them much (oh yeah, they give you a little push, big woop) but it completely cancels out the fear aspect. They should have to FORCE you into Reaper territory to EARN that Cyclops, to EARN THE RIGHT to not "fear the Reaper". To keep you on edge, so that the only way to advance is to get through the dangerous areas.
But you can easily get almost all the content in the game without even setting foot in Reaper territory, and by then you're sailing in a big ass cyclops and you feel untouchable.
Comments
Then hell will break loose, you'll get scared to death and every time you hear a roar or strange sound, you'll turn around in panic. Even with your super upgraded Seamoth, Exosuit or Cyclops. And the lava zone will become "mission impossible" and the place where you can find dozens of Cyclops wrecks, destroyed by angry sea dragons.
Without roaming though you're right. All creatures are easy to predict, avoid and defeat, as they simply stay at their well defined spawning place.
I think, instead of the Stasis Rifle making a sphere, it should instead just surround the creature you hit and freeze that creature in stasis, and depending on the size, it requires more charge to freeze it.
You need to hit the Reaper in the face for it to work, though, so the effective target is relatively small and I can imagine quite a few players dying before they figure that out. Right now, the Stasis Rifle charging time decides how long a field is active, which is an agreeable effect.
Also mind that the Stasis Rifle is pretty much the one good tool to get a chance for a scan of some of the more hostile creatures. Database enthusiasts deserve some mercy.
Subnautica has built a unique aspect around the whole survival genre that is that you are not "supposed" to kill off the Fauna and Flora, but to adapt and overcome by non-lethal measures. Sustainability is the key aspect of the game and should stay this way.
I have a similar issue with the game being too fast to become fearless.
Once you have the fruit tree from the island and the indoor planter, you can put them both in your base and your Cyclops, and ALL issues with food and water are gone - COMPLETELY. Honestly, part of what made me spend time in this game from the start was the rush to not only explore new areas, and technologies but to also have to grab fish on the way in, and get power for my water separator (I know, improper name, me). Now that I've got the trees, it's game over in regards to those problems.
Next, you have the issues with resources.. Oh, you have a new blueprint and NO resources? Don't worry, spend <5 minutes outside of your base with your Seamoss and you'll have EVERYTHING you need. No reason to grab extra resources (Not that I don't, still...) and no real farming for said resources. I know some people don't like spending all day working on something.. But who else was able to put together an entire CYCLOPS (Have you SEEN the size of this ship?) within a mere 10-15 minutes or so? I'd like to see the cost of some of these ships go up drastically. Keep it within reason, but 5 special ingots? 5 Special glass? Head by the Aurora (Sp), load up on all the titanium via scrap metal you could ever need, (Just over 10 pieces total for the cyclops), then propulsion gun a piece of scrap into a stalker for 2 minutes while he bites it repetitively to get your 5 teeth.. The rest is cheese.
LASTLY, the Stasis Rifle definitely needs adjusting. Now, as much as I love the concept on being able to shoot at a Blueprint Fragment and know I can scan it in peace inside of my pretty bubble, I see no reason why I'm not affected by the same Stasis Field that's freezing all of my enemies (Per se)? Most terrible creature in the entire universe, Mr. Reaper coming your direction? Charge for 1-3 seconds, release - then when he's frozen, stand just behind his head and shoot a fully charged blast at him. 15-20 seconds of complete safety to go wherever you please. Just head back and re-charge a new blast - Because hell, it's only like 5% power per shot, and you're charging your gun at least that with your awesome fins of awesome. And I've run into every (Non-consolespawningcommandrequired) hostile creature in this game, and there's not a ONE (including Reaper) I haven't been able to simply outrun with my Seaglide. Why can I move faster with my little piece of machinery, than this water-born creature at the top of the current foodchain? Not even to mention the OTHER aggressive lifeforms. Maybe swimming in circles near them, like dodging a shark in the ocean sure.. But just directly swim away? Eat me, please.
TLDR: Stasis rifle has too little of an energy requirement for too strong of a freeze-effect, and maybe one way to improve it is to remove your personal immunity to it.
Ships covered in metal, should take more than 5 measly ingots to create (Make crafting proportional, and within reason).
Standard carnivores should swim faster than a human with a SeaGlide, and Reapers and anything in the Leviathan category should swim faster than an un-modded (Maybe add in speed mods to counter this?) SeaMoth.
Just my opinion. I enjoy a challenge, and I've all but removed them from my game through simple measures.
Farming will probably be made a bit more difficult soon what with seatreader manure, and I do hope the growth rate for (all?) flora will be slowed down a bit, but that's honestly all that's needed. Also, if you can bring a tree, you can bring an aquarium, so no need to go out for fish soon anyway. I fail to understand why so many people call farming OP when an aquarium is much easier to set up with about the same lasting food supply payoff.
"Don't worry, spend <5 minutes outside of your base with your Seamoss and you'll have EVERYTHING you need." - I can't say I agree. You need 50 pieces of titanium to make a cyclops (plus another ten for the vehicle bay). That means two titanium-only missions, which leaves out the lithium, teeth, quartz, gold, silver, table coral, and creepvine seeds (and acid mushrooms and copper for the power cell of the vehicle bay, or a lucky find at the Aurora). This is by no means a small feat, nor is getting the full blueprint. And then there's learning to drive and use the thing, as well as the investments for upgrade modules and energy supply. The only thing I think fair to add with recharging is 2-4 power cells to the recipe, but that's it.
The seaglide is, in a way, another vehicle. One that doesn't protect you from attacks or provides you with air. It does, however, provide you with speed and mobility. This is a fair balance. Like, is there any gameplay reason you shouldn't be able to outrun a reaper with technological aid?
First off, maybe making the game harder in general can be part of a difficulty feature later. Make it so that higher difficulties scale the amount of food/water/power to sustain yourself, and resources to build.
As for the balancing of the stasis rifle: 1) Don't let us swim inside the stasis field, as was suggested. 2) The longer you charge it = the more battery is consumed. 15+ seconds of free time should cost much more than 4% of a measly battery.
I don't know what they're planning to do with SeaTreader manure, so I can't speak for it's upcoming changes. I'm not sure if slowing the growth rate for fruit would really do much good, as you could just have multiple farms. And, I would never use an Aquarium over a Lantern Fruit Tree. The Lantern Fruit restores SO much Hp/Water, and if you throw even just two of these bad boys in a planter, you'll never ever ever ever EVER be hungry or thirsty again. Every time you stop in at the base, just harvest the trees and you're golden.
50 pieces of titanium is a measly 12-13 scrap metal. If you've ever been south of the Aurora (or anywhere near it, for that matter) you've had access to a tremendous amount of scrap. Simply throw a few cargos on your Seamoth, load that bad boy up and bring it home. From the Escape Pod it's like a 5 minute run total. Even if you had to make several trips it'd still be fairly fast. Lithium, you've probably got a few laying around at that point and time, you only need 5. If not, you can snag it when you're by the aurora - it's not extremely rare. The teeth I already explained. How many quartz do you need? Baker's Dozen? Easily harvested around your base, at almost any location. If you're short on gold, but you have the blueprint for the cyclops, you're not doing it right. I can't get RID of my gold fast enough. Table corals, creepvine seeds.. These are very minor things, and all easily obtainable. The only thing you might struggle with is the Silver, which can be difficult to get a hold of some times and may take a few minutes to locate. The modules are irrelevant, as the concern is how easy it is to make a near indestructible mobile base. No hull damage above 450 meters? Able to line the walls with storage, and create a interior plantbed? Even REAPERS can't attack you, at ALL? We're lookin at an early-game development for god-mode.
And relating to the seaglide, AND the fact that it might take you a little longer (as a newer player) to obtain these materials... If you HAVE a seaglide (Which, you definitely should at this point, as you're crafting a Cyclops..) then there's simply no challenge. Keep one extra battery on you, watch your oxygen - and boom. Nothing can catch you... Not even a reaper. And yes, THIS is a problem. Outrunning sharks and other fast swimmers with a Seaglide - no, I'm not happy about it but yes, I could see it being feasible... But outrunning a REAPER LEVIATHAN? Nah.. That's too much. With that little dinky thing? You should be sharkbait, ooh ah ah.
Quite simply, the game was incredible when I first started it up.. So many points felt on-key but then I realized I was going through it too fast.. After 8 hours, I had a self-sustaining base, a fully modified Seamoth, 2/4 modded Cyclops, and every tool and item in the game.. Not even mentioning the amount of that time spent towards nothing but exploration.
It wouldn't kill any of the noobies to have a bit more of a challenge when trying to craft the largest ship in the game.. Or to see some of the more deadly carnivores in the game and actually be AFRAID of approaching them with a Seaglide OR a Seamoth. It just adds to the actual joy of having accomplished the creation of something you spent so much time working towards. Of course, at this point and time there's really not much point in even MAKING a cyclops, with the exception of having the mobile base aspect - being able to have food/water and storage with you wherever you go.. But it is moderately useless on the grand scale of the current can-do's in the game.
Not to mention I didn't speak just of new players, but also of people with disabilities and people who don't game much in general. Like, yeah, gaming is popular, but there are many people who do not get into gaming or stay in a "safe" segment because of (perceptions of) difficulty and unaccommodating userbases.
Subnautica seems to mean something different to everyone, and from the perspective of a survival game I get the wish for more challenge. But Subnautica also is a huge norm-breaker with its "no weapons" rule, photo option/pro-scenery aspect, frivolous parts of base building, considerate player designs/atmosphere, etc. These are things that make Subnautica appealing to people who need more convincing to pick up a game. It shouldn't be merely a bonus to people who come for a challenge. It should just as be possible to come for the experience and through it be invited to a challenge.
You say you had everything after 8 hours of gameplay? Congrats. I took a little under 30 hours and I've so far avoided at least five biomes I know to not be super interesting yet and scanning most of the bigger fish. I can find a lot of enjoyment in the experience portion of the game. As for challenge, I'm no longer afraid of the fauna (give or take a jumpscare moment), but I certainly don't find them boring or insignificant either because I know I am not afraid because I've learned to deal with them. That my not-afraidness is earned.
This isn't to say I don't think the game may not be more difficult, but it matters how. Like, you are contradicting yourself somewhat. If five plasteel ingots is a piece of cake to get, is, say, ten that much more challenging then? I don't think so. Just upping the amount of needed supplies does nothing to enhance gameplay. Adding new ingredients might improve it a little simply because it is new, but an entire shopping list to keep track of also isn't fun. Finetuning of all the ways gameplay details intersect in a way that is intuitive and paced is what is important. Hence, I'm majorly looking forward to how much more intricate the energy system will become now that the nature of batteries and power cells has changed.
Not here for trashing the Cyclops, btw. I'm a tad bored with people being so negative all the time about gameplay parts that are still mostly in development and for which we know the general future plans. I may not have a technical reason to build the Cyclops, but I love the thought that went into its design. Just hanging around inside and admiring the details is a treat on itself.
I can also understand that the predators are not much of a threat right now for me. I just recommended this game to a friend of mine and he gets bitten by stalkers all the time, which is something not happening to me at all. So there is, as people said the new players that need to feel at home as well.
Another thing to keep in mind though, is our incentive to play Subnautica at all. Personally, base-building is just convenience for me nothing I spend hours on, but many people do and build great stuff. Creative Mode is ideal for them, but you can also build great bases on standard. Then there are people like me that play Subnautica not for the gameplay but the experience, for exploring and seeing the things just thinking "Wow!" all the time. So the normal mode is really for me. I think though that the hanging fruit tree and the medkit fabricator is a bit too easy to get and use, but this is all subject to change.
Now talking balance I would think that the tree should only have 3-4 fruits, with each filling up 4-5% of Hunger and Thirst. So you could use them as a filler really, but not to fill your bars fully unless you have ten trees. I think the key to hunger and thirst are indeed the nutrient blocks. If you could craft them by say 4 fruit trees, 4 potatos, 4 marblemelons and similar, this would work. It would give more use to salt and water, too.
Another thing useful for gating is energy consumption via crafting and stuff. Say the larger your base, the more oxygen needs to be produced, the more energy you need for lighting it and so forth. Also the amount of energy it takes to craft certain things should differ. Instead of 5 or 10 energy per item, make it dynamic and relying on the complexity of the item, like 15 for a computer chip, but 5 for glass. Mods should use energy as well.
Also instead of increasing the amount of materials used for creating certain vehicles and stuff, increase diversity, make aluminium oxide more used, or magnetite, mercury. You would need to refine them as well. I am sure stuff like this is planned because so many things are unused as of now.
Hardcore could see more or many of explained limitations, but I would like to see most stuff on normal, too. Just so you spend more time gathering to achieve a milestone, without just farming only one resource. Make people look for it and everything worthwhile.
Also loving the idea of advanced base management. I kinda am hoping myself we'll one day get a control room where we can monitor and program energy expenses. I don't know how difficult it would be to program, but little things like an instruction to cease all energy expenses but the vital ones as soon as the amount gets under 30 or to not spend energy on water filtration or light at all.
The medkit fabricator is something I'd like to see the recipe change for, but I am not sure how. Something with more ingredient variety, but not so that it can't be gained from ingredients in the Shallows/Forest/Plateaus area. Less quartz and more electronics and maybe salt/bleach.
Actually, how about when you go into the sphere, you freeze to?
I don't quite understand this distinction between "Hardcore" and "Casual"
Would I be considered casual for not touching hardcore mode? I think of myself as a casual player of video games, yet I am requesting some challenge to be put into the game. I am asking for the game to be harder, so does that make me hardcore? Hardly (no pun intended). I just think the game is too easy and it makes the game not fun. You're thus saying that casual players like easy games, which isn't true at all. "Casual" players like challenging games as much as "Hardcore" players.
You're putting all of the gaming community into two very vague boxes. Which is somewhat necessary, but I think difficulty and challenge should not cater to one of these two vague boxes. Challenge should be a thing in itself, not something like, "casuals like easy games and hardcore players like hard games"
As for my part, I enjoy this game tremendously. I still fear the reaper, I still occassionally get jumpscares and when I go out to explore, with or without my seamoth, I'm always terrified of what I will find out there. I don't have a setup for starting a new game, or for making my first new outpost, or for gathering materials or blueprints. Every time I restart I spend a lot of time finding blueprints and materials, even though I probably could have used a guide or map or something to increase my efficiency. I spend a lot of time gaming in general, but I'm not the kind of person that "specialize" in one game. I don't mind having to work for something, but I never play on the higher difficulties either. In this particular game, that means playing survival mode instead of hardcore or creative mode.
My point with this is that, as mentioned by earlier posters, there are many different types of gamers. Changing the game will make it uninteresting, if not unaccessible, for some of them, while keeping it as it is will alienate others. My personal opinion on this is that there could be more gamemodes or difficulties in order to cater to all of us. I doesn't have to be two completely different games, but as mentioned earlier a lot can be acheived just by tweaking costs and effectiveness of various aspects of the game. Shouldn't be too much work for the devs, and hopefully it will be accessible to as many people as possible as this is a terriffic game that deserves to be experienced.
Yet.
No they wont! The devs say this is meant to be a passive games and they aren't adding any new weapons.The only thing close to a weapon that i found on the trello page is a canister gun for transporting small plants and such.