I love the use of gorges doing nothing and a comm blowing res to back up your argument...
Because he's totally talking about having fun by doing nothing and/or trolling the team.
And of course if you aren't playing the "proper" way then obviously you must be circle jerking in main or blowing all the team res to screw your team over...
Nice
MoFo man, at this point I think that you are feeling attacked while we are clearly no trying to do so.
I am attacking skulks circlejerking in main base and ignoring team calls, which even you accept that is not the "proper way to play" (even though this sentence hurts you somehow)
In which we disagree is in allowing more tunnel placements, and in assuming that this brings more fun to the game
I have always been in the atmosphere ballpark. I like a games good looks to come along with a nice play.
NS2 has become more and more bland in terms of looks. And I detest it, personally.
As a side note, the comp scene was always a big part to scream of the evil of visual obstruction and clutter. I see skill in working with darkened rooms, sudden sounds etc... the "how to handle it" situation. Comp never did.. One of the big downsides of the comp scene I am myself a part of.
While I can see the point of having a more 'even' playing field across computers, it still removes atmosphere as a whole. (Sadly occlusion is to bugged to use.)
Folk who know me know I even run with shadows.. I just like atmosphere.
I doubt ns2 wil change at this point, but just my 2 cents.
Yeah, I agree with this in some ways. The issue is of course gameplay. I wanted the alien mood lighting so to speak too until I saw it implemented and realized it just makes the gameplay worse. It's difficult in a fast FPS game to limit what someone can see. You don't want to feel like the game or a dark corner was the difference between you winning and losing. You want it to come down to skill and teamwork. So if they could find that balance, I'm all for it. After seeing it though, I don't think you can make it more difficult for both teams to see, you need to find another way to create atmosphere. Or keep the atmosphere for 1 player games and work on making this game fun, balanced, teach people how to get better, and improve the game performance. I think those should be the 4 things to look into going forward. If they constantly work on those 4 things, the game will be as good as it can be.
I personally would prefer to see darker maps. I just didn't realized how much the lighting had changed until watching those old videos. The game looked so much better in my opinion back then with the darker atmosphere. It actually looks like you're going to a beaten down station, etc. and clearing this infestation. There is this ominous threat, but you don't full know what it is. I know there may be balance concerns, but I'm sure there are ways of toning down the lighting and returning that feeling of danger to the game without inhibiting balance issues. Unless people are truly blind that shouldn't be too much of a concern.
I love the use of gorges doing nothing and a comm blowing res to back up your argument...
Because he's totally talking about having fun by doing nothing and/or trolling the team.
And of course if you aren't playing the "proper" way then obviously you must be circle jerking in main or blowing all the team res to screw your team over...
Nice
MoFo man, at this point I think that you are feeling attacked while we are clearly no trying to do so.
I am attacking skulks circlejerking in main base and ignoring team calls, which even you accept that is not the "proper way to play" (even though this sentence hurts you somehow)
In which we disagree is in allowing more tunnel placements, and in assuming that this brings more fun to the game
I should've been more clear..
That post was in response to depara and this little rant...
@rebirth
So you trying to tell us personal fun is the most important thing while playing a online shooter, right?
And noone has the rights to tell these people how they have to play a game, right?
So by your logic 2 gorges that standing in the starthive training there babblers are ok, as long they have fun doing this.
A com who spend all the ressources exlusive on armory walls everywhere cause he wants to try out new stuff and placing the armorys is fun in general is ok.
Even a hacker is ok by your logic, cause hey, he play the game like he wants and its fun to slaughter all enemys.
If you want to play for fun only, play singleplayergames.
In an online shooter especial in an team orientated game like NS2 with a wide variations of playerskills you cant have pure fun cause your way to play the game affects the other players fun directly.
The fun of the 2 gorges of above is trolling for me while for the gorges i am a toxic player.
I would start a kick vote against the com of above immediately while he might post in the forum after that about how toxic the community is.
If you dont want to win a round and dont care about objectives, dont play online shooter.
So simple is that,
Having fun by using certain strategies or features of the game is vastly different than having fun trolling or hacking...
They're [Tunnels] just boring and bland, I don't like using tunnels anymore because they feel like a waste of res. Especially since the only "good" place to put them is near res nodes, where they are the first thing targeted by attacking Marines.
The latter sentence is just patently wrong and might be a reason you don't enjoy tunnels
Whether it's patently wrong or not, the number of times I've been bitched at for not dropping my tunnel on the res node (not to mention how many times I've heard others getting bitched at) is astounding...
If it's not at a res node or right outside their main for a rush, you're almost guaranteed to be called noob...
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited July 2016
Well in competitive games we have successfully used gorge tunnels to just give you more map presence (a classic one is in cross on summit), tunnels to block a lane and also bait tunnels (meaning we wanted the enemy to put pressure on the tunnel even though it didn't give us much)
I have always been in the atmosphere ballpark. I like a games good looks to come along with a nice play.
NS2 has become more and more bland in terms of looks. And I detest it, personally.
As a side note, the comp scene was always a big part to scream of the evil of visual obstruction and clutter. I see skill in working with darkened rooms, sudden sounds etc... the "how to handle it" situation. Comp never did.. One of the big downsides of the comp scene I am myself a part of.
While I can see the point of having a more 'even' playing field across computers, it still removes atmosphere as a whole. (Sadly occlusion is to bugged to use.)
Folk who know me know I even run with shadows.. I just like atmosphere.
I doubt ns2 wil change at this point, but just my 2 cents.
Yeah, I agree with this in some ways. The issue is of course gameplay. I wanted the alien mood lighting so to speak too until I saw it implemented and realized it just makes the gameplay worse. It's difficult in a fast FPS game to limit what someone can see. You don't want to feel like the game or a dark corner was the difference between you winning and losing. You want it to come down to skill and teamwork. So if they could find that balance, I'm all for it. After seeing it though, I don't think you can make it more difficult for both teams to see, you need to find another way to create atmosphere. Or keep the atmosphere for 1 player games and work on making this game fun, balanced, teach people how to get better, and improve the game performance. I think those should be the 4 things to look into going forward. If they constantly work on those 4 things, the game will be as good as it can be.
The thing which happened both in NS and NS2 is that mappers were all sorts of creative and using cinematics and atmosphere to play around with their artistic view of how they wanted the maps to look.
Than came the mandatory balancing of the maps, which in NS2 took one step further by having all bases either be alien or marine. AND the lack of interactivity in NS2 only compounds this issue... In NS we had the static layouts of 3Hive location vs 1MS, which resulted in the following available for mappers:
wrote:
Natural Selection mapping in a nutshell
Marine Start:
- Lit up areas
- Squeaky clean surroundings
- Serious lack of vents
- A lot less cover
Hives:
- Moody, flickering, emergency lighting
- Aliens like to make a mess
- You want crawling spaces, we've got crawling spaces... You want vents, we've got vents!
- All kinds of hidy holes and barriers
"Neutral areas" near hives were more alien friendly and vica versa more marine friendly near marine start. Which might be the biggest part of lack of atmosphere. I mean right now we don't have that "going into the unknown vibe" with everything being similar in between the bases. In NS, the further you got away from MS, the more desolate/broken/scary it started to look, which also gave aliens that feeling of "we're home"
Now of course the "dynamic" infestation helps a tad bit, but mapping architecture helped a lot more in that regard. For the maps that do have those alien or marine only areas, the maps are still relying way too much on the cyst/infestation system to some extent apart from some maps. Docking generator (and surrounding areas) is good example of utilizing map architecture along with the infestation (along with Kodiak, Mineshaft and Biodome to a smaller extent, the areas are mostly intact but look desolate/kinda alien). But even these maps are not as atmospheric somehow...
In NS2 that extra step took away a lot of options to make certain areas have more of a desolate, broken, alien or marine vibe, which also took away a lot of the atmosphere. And we still didn't get weldables, water drainage systems, big scary doors and so on (GoldSrc entity list), interactivity with the surroundings might as well not exist...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
Hehe the funny thing is, when I think of NS(2) in terms of colours... It is always boils down to, aqua/orange/green (+grey hazewith blurry FXAA vision, courtesy of NS2)
It was meant to be a protest against dumbing down the game... but it got derailed into nostalgia and the usual cockfight about balancing+abilities
But it's fine, as long as there enthusiastic are players :]
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2016
Idk seems pretty on topic to me still.. a big part of your post was about the impression from the presentation.
Of which has been modified/ degraded.. so you had a good point and people are capitalizing on it by supporting it with evidence.
The rest of your post and the potential debate around it was aptly covered by @Therius post.. enough for many potential commenters to simply click agree and move on. *Shrug*
Well in competitive games we have successfully used gorge tunnels to just give you more map presence (a classic one is in cross on summit), tunnels to block a lane and also bait tunnels (meaning we wanted the enemy to put pressure on the tunnel even though it didn't give us much)
Bamboo pass/far south in falls (almost bioreactors)/Bridge on biodome... Water treatment or receiving on descent... offload on jambi... upper platform in mezzanine/connection from ore to north tunnels on tram... inspection/Enclave on nexus... east path/loading bay on mineral...
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2016
For those still tracking this thread..
Thanks to McGlaspie I got my hands on one of the very first versions of Summit.
I thought instead of using old PT pics this time I could actually make some legit comparison screenshots of the changes in lighting.
Granted it's not the best map to do this (since summit has never been moody or atmospheric compared to the others) but I think it still highlights a change in direction that occurred.
The thing I noticed being the biggest difference is the variance in colors of light used, or spotlights vs ambient lights.
It makes sense to have certain rooms exhibit certain colors for distinction, but I think the "room wide" lighting makes things look washed out instead of the contrasting lighting that we first saw.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited July 2016
tbh looks like lots of small differently coloured lights has been replaced with less and larger lights. So the colour varience isn't given as much
maybe @Loki@Zavaro and maybe @Flaterectomy can make go through the maps and change the lighting again in a way of adding a third lighting layer so we have the options for low, medium and high quality lights (high being like it used to look like)
Comments
MoFo man, at this point I think that you are feeling attacked while we are clearly no trying to do so.
I am attacking skulks circlejerking in main base and ignoring team calls, which even you accept that is not the "proper way to play" (even though this sentence hurts you somehow)
In which we disagree is in allowing more tunnel placements, and in assuming that this brings more fun to the game
It is the monthly casual vs competitive drama thread.
FTFY
Yeah, I agree with this in some ways. The issue is of course gameplay. I wanted the alien mood lighting so to speak too until I saw it implemented and realized it just makes the gameplay worse. It's difficult in a fast FPS game to limit what someone can see. You don't want to feel like the game or a dark corner was the difference between you winning and losing. You want it to come down to skill and teamwork. So if they could find that balance, I'm all for it. After seeing it though, I don't think you can make it more difficult for both teams to see, you need to find another way to create atmosphere. Or keep the atmosphere for 1 player games and work on making this game fun, balanced, teach people how to get better, and improve the game performance. I think those should be the 4 things to look into going forward. If they constantly work on those 4 things, the game will be as good as it can be.
I should've been more clear..
That post was in response to depara and this little rant...
Having fun by using certain strategies or features of the game is vastly different than having fun trolling or hacking...
Whether it's patently wrong or not, the number of times I've been bitched at for not dropping my tunnel on the res node (not to mention how many times I've heard others getting bitched at) is astounding...
If it's not at a res node or right outside their main for a rush, you're almost guaranteed to be called noob...
The thing which happened both in NS and NS2 is that mappers were all sorts of creative and using cinematics and atmosphere to play around with their artistic view of how they wanted the maps to look.
Than came the mandatory balancing of the maps, which in NS2 took one step further by having all bases either be alien or marine. AND the lack of interactivity in NS2 only compounds this issue... In NS we had the static layouts of 3Hive location vs 1MS, which resulted in the following available for mappers:
In NS2 that extra step took away a lot of options to make certain areas have more of a desolate, broken, alien or marine vibe, which also took away a lot of the atmosphere. And we still didn't get weldables, water drainage systems, big scary doors and so on (GoldSrc entity list), interactivity with the surroundings might as well not exist...
Or green. Or orange. Or bland.
(Bland is a color.)
It was meant to be a protest against dumbing down the game... but it got derailed into nostalgia and the usual cockfight about balancing+abilities
But it's fine, as long as there enthusiastic are players :]
Of which has been modified/ degraded.. so you had a good point and people are capitalizing on it by supporting it with evidence.
The rest of your post and the potential debate around it was aptly covered by @Therius post.. enough for many potential commenters to simply click agree and move on. *Shrug*
Bamboo pass/far south in falls (almost bioreactors)/Bridge on biodome... Water treatment or receiving on descent... offload on jambi... upper platform in mezzanine/connection from ore to north tunnels on tram... inspection/Enclave on nexus... east path/loading bay on mineral...
Thanks to McGlaspie I got my hands on one of the very first versions of Summit.
I thought instead of using old PT pics this time I could actually make some legit comparison screenshots of the changes in lighting.
Granted it's not the best map to do this (since summit has never been moody or atmospheric compared to the others) but I think it still highlights a change in direction that occurred.
The thing I noticed being the biggest difference is the variance in colors of light used, or spotlights vs ambient lights.
It makes sense to have certain rooms exhibit certain colors for distinction, but I think the "room wide" lighting makes things look washed out instead of the contrasting lighting that we first saw.
maybe @Loki @Zavaro and maybe @Flaterectomy can make go through the maps and change the lighting again in a way of adding a third lighting layer so we have the options for low, medium and high quality lights (high being like it used to look like)
This. I really like those pillars. What happened to them? Surely not balance, because you know, UWE?