I see you know the community quite well. Weren't you the guy who lashed out on new players - that they are stupid and can't play aliens, that's why the marine stomp - when the hitbox update came out?
Yes he was that guy. dePARA doesn't understand that 1.) shi.t game balance is shi.t for pubs too and 2.) regardless of balance unprecise hitboxes are worse than precise hitboxes. With that change the game received a HUGE drop in overall quality and not only that, then they increase skulk HP to "balance" for a change that was terrible anyway and nobody wants to have. So instead of making the game better and more fun by making the skulk smaller and more fun to play, they decided to go into the tank direction and also make that a hidden change since the models didn't increase in size while the hitboxes did.
Oh yea and also it is very fun to play to get sniped from 100m away as Lerk vs shotguns.
These kind of updates limit the gameplay the game has to offer, make it less fun and hitboxes bigger than the models (fade scythe big rofl) are also another hidden mechanic. What is funny because I heard they actually wanted to reduce the amount of hidden mechanics.
I understand that some people think it is fun to deal damage when you miss the target but probably they have not thought about the problem that it is not so fun as an alien.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Your shit gamebalance comes from the fact that half of the team has no clue what they are doing.
So you balancing the game around the 2 carrys of each team, congrats.
Smaller skulks=more fun to play? Makes sense, well, no.
The fun of this game comes from the teamplay, good coordinated ambushes are fun. Playing with people who listen and know what todo is fun.
And as i said before, after the HP buff the skulk didnt feel that different to me in early game compared to pre 305.
So, I'm the only person whose performance hasn't improved one bit with the new hitboxes then? I feel like my accuracy is the exact same, only skulks got stronger. What I wouldn't give to get back my 144hz monitor...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2016
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
I'm sorry to say, but that goes against ANY proper gamedesign of a multiplayer game... You always balance around intermediate+ play and add elements like noobtubes. And this can be done from theorycrafting as well, if the theorizers actually have enough game knowledge to do that, able to anticipate what certain changes would do...
But alas, all of this it a moot point people, mostly because the devs have designed themselves into a corner by alienating the vets and being left with mostly new players who leave after something like 20-30 hours? So they cannot design around intermediate/top level play anymore based on playtest/rounds data
Your **** gamebalance comes from the fact that half of the team has no clue what they are doing.
And now you're contradicting yourself in second-order. How can the enlarged hitboxes change the fact that most pple don't know how to play the game?
Marine side may be more forgiving (relatively) for new players, but how many times do you see marines running blindly through doorways not checking the ceiling/corners? Not to mention they never keep their distance and choose smart positions, just run towards lifeforms.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I wonder why so many vets had left the game before the CDT team was takin over the development?
And i wonder why the game had always a low playerbase?
Cause all the vets who never going to play other games and stick with the game should end in an HUGE playerbase after 3 years, right.
What a logic.
All this "The vets leaving cause the last changes" is just wrong.
Most of them had left it anyway, with or without the changes.
We had people in the past left the game cause there was no development going on, now they leave cause to much?
Jesus. If you dont like to play for whatever reason stop searching a scapegoat.
We had people in the past left the game cause there was no development going on, now they leave cause to much?
Jesus. If you dont like to play for whatever reason stop searching a scapegoat.
No, a large portion of players are leaving because of UNREASONABLE changes, not because of changes.
Can we not fall on the other side of the horse?
And people like you know for sure what is UNREASONABLE. I understand.
Hyperbole alert!
I've written pages of arguments, along with others (here and elsewhere).
That's B&W, care to argue about those instead of "people like you"?
But wait, since we are here, let me ask you this: why should we care about a guy's opinion who was clearly in the wrong, yet haven't even bothered to correct himself? You sure you want to go down that road?
Mines are becoming more traps than area denial tools which isnt necessarly a bad thing, it allows to do something about it if you notice it before walking on it, tho I agree it could use like 10 more hp because both functions need to remain somewhat usable.
How many parasites does it to kill a mine now? Just yesterday, me fool researched mines and encouraged people to buy them... only to see they had no res left for shotties, nor did they get any mine kills. And not everyone placed them in the middle of the room
How many parasites does it to kill a mine now? Just yesterday, me fool researched mines and encouraged people to buy them... only to see they had no res left for shotties, nor did they get any mine kills. And not everyone placed them in the middle of the room
Three parasites. This and the effective damage reduction just reduced mine effectiveness by a whole lot.
Would be nice if they reverted parasite kill of mines... they are quite useless this way, even if they increase the damage.
Tagging is great, other aliens see where they shouldn't step, while still retaining it's area denial function
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
Of all people Kouji, I think you should know that we don't do that. Balance has to take into account a huge amount of things. What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players. Everyone knows the barrier to entry for NS2 is high, even with the new tutorials we've been working on. This doesn't mean dumbing down the game, but it's no secret that NS2 has had for a long time issues that have needed addressing for new players. We're taking steps to help ensure new players have a better introduction to the game, and don't walk away from their first play session feeling like they had zero chance at doing anything. We need to grow NS2, not look to the past. The past has clearly not worked. That's why we're starting to see growth compared to this time last year (5 months so far).
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Does dePARA have a template that he uses to create his posts? I struggle to understand how he currently generates 20% of the posts with literally the same post over and over again. I think it was better when he limited himself to abusing new players on the steam forum for not using the search function.
Classic case of good posters departing a forum and leaving only the crappy low end posters to finally have their time in the sun and think they're the source of sage wisdom. ROFL.
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
Of all people Kouji, I think you should know that we don't do that. Balance has to take into account a huge amount of things. What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players. Everyone knows the barrier to entry for NS2 is high, even with the new tutorials we've been working on. This doesn't mean dumbing down the game, but it's no secret that NS2 has had for a long time issues that have needed addressing for new players. We're taking steps to help ensure new players have a better introduction to the game, and don't walk away from their first play session feeling like they had zero chance at doing anything. We need to grow NS2, not look to the past. The past has clearly not worked. That's why we're starting to see growth compared to this time last year (5 months so far).
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
So you are basically saying, all NS veterans should go on and search for other games to play, as long as enough new casual players find their way into the game. For me it sounds that you are working towards a NS3 casual console game and NS2 is your marketing campaign.
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
Of all people Kouji, I think you should know that we don't do that. Balance has to take into account a huge amount of things. What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players. Everyone knows the barrier to entry for NS2 is high, even with the new tutorials we've been working on. This doesn't mean dumbing down the game, but it's no secret that NS2 has had for a long time issues that have needed addressing for new players. We're taking steps to help ensure new players have a better introduction to the game, and don't walk away from their first play session feeling like they had zero chance at doing anything. We need to grow NS2, not look to the past. The past has clearly not worked. That's why we're starting to see growth compared to this time last year (5 months so far).
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
Best intentions...
I'm sorry, but they are only as good as how they are implemented. And what I see right now, tunnelvision fixing of problems without keeping an eye on the bigger picture. While better options, suggested by the community from vets and people who know their stuff have been completely ignored.
And please don't call me out, when the case you're presenting ambiguous at best. [that edit] I also don't appreciate the selective quote, cause I explained why it is no longer really possible to get proper results due to lack of data from veteran rounds
And of all people, you know I'll definitely speak up when I see wrongdoings, even now when my interest has reached rock bottom. And I'm very unimpressed by the current ripping apart the core of a working game, instead of focusing on making hidden game mechanics more obvious, streaming lining information and adding obvious incentives to push people to do stuff. Instead of adding way to radical changes to the game that once was Natural Selection 2...
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
Of all people Kouji, I think you should know that we don't do that. Balance has to take into account a huge amount of things. What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players. Everyone knows the barrier to entry for NS2 is high, even with the new tutorials we've been working on. This doesn't mean dumbing down the game, but it's no secret that NS2 has had for a long time issues that have needed addressing for new players. We're taking steps to help ensure new players have a better introduction to the game, and don't walk away from their first play session feeling like they had zero chance at doing anything. We need to grow NS2, not look to the past. The past has clearly not worked. That's why we're starting to see growth compared to this time last year (5 months so far).
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
Best intentions...
I'm sorry, but they are only as good as how they are implemented. And what I see right now, tunnelvision fixing of problems without keeping an eye on the bigger picture. While better options, suggested by the community from vets and people who know their stuff have been completely ignored.
And please don't call me out, when the case you're presenting ambiguous at best.
And of all people, you know I'll definitely speak up when I see wrongdoings, even now when my interest has reached rock bottom. And I'm very unimpressed by the current ripping apart the core of a working game, instead of focusing on making hidden game mechanics more obvious, streaming lining information and adding obvious incentives to push people to do stuff. Instead of adding way to radical changes to the game that once was Natural Selection 2...
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
Of all people Kouji, I think you should know that we don't do that. Balance has to take into account a huge amount of things. What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players. Everyone knows the barrier to entry for NS2 is high, even with the new tutorials we've been working on. This doesn't mean dumbing down the game, but it's no secret that NS2 has had for a long time issues that have needed addressing for new players. We're taking steps to help ensure new players have a better introduction to the game, and don't walk away from their first play session feeling like they had zero chance at doing anything. We need to grow NS2, not look to the past. The past has clearly not worked. That's why we're starting to see growth compared to this time last year (5 months so far).
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
Best intentions...
I'm sorry, but they are only as good as how they are implemented. And what I see right now, tunnelvision fixing of problems without keeping an eye on the bigger picture. While better options, suggested by the community from vets and people who know their stuff have been completely ignored.
And please don't call me out, when the case you're presenting ambiguous at best.
And of all people, you know I'll definitely speak up when I see wrongdoings, even now when my interest has reached rock bottom. And I'm very unimpressed by the current ripping apart the core of a working game, instead of focusing on making hidden game mechanics more obvious, streaming lining information and adding obvious incentives to push people to do stuff. Instead of adding way to radical changes to the game that once was Natural Selection 2...
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I am sorry but I disagree @Obraxis, in a way.
Your reasoning is fine. The game is hard and rookies could do with a lower entry.
Sadly the whole surrounding area doesn't seen to match up to real world at the moment.
Some small details become slightly easier for rookies while they become vastly easier for vets, lowering the skill ceiling quite significantly. This in terms lowers end game quality as there is just no real challenge for anyone of even medium skill. (I am, by no means high skill.)
Balance in general is going more and more haywire. Rookie marines and vets in general keep having a easier and easier time to play. Alien wins are by far less and less. More balanced games will of course go up the more we take new players out the equation, but with the low count of current veterans sticking around to play, its far unlikely to have a server full of such players.
Most of the games which do last long and have a 'random' size win are of such a insane low quality, I was amazed we could lower the bar on pub play any lower. (And one again, this bar is not a competitive bar.. my expectations of pub skill are quite quite low.)
Weird nonoptional stuff keeps being implemented which is questionable at best. Sure it may serve a certain goal, but does it help the game in global? To name a example in hope it never sees the light of day.. Adding a option to use a new type of controls is good. More options is better. Replacing last weapon switch by a new control method in a long established old game would be bad. But if recent experience is anything I half expect it to be replacing, not being added. (And yes I love for you to prove me wrong and make it a toggle.)
So it boils down to 'many' players who want to play the game, simply are being put off because:
Pub is disastrous at best compared to 'normal'.
No alternative to more experienced play exists.
No visible future of improvement.
All the while to get more rookies in, which probably will not stick around due to the abhorrent quality of the game which everyone who isnt zerging weeks on end can see.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Yeah and I've gone into detail (somewhere on here) on that if you lower the ceiling you also make the game easier for better players. In fact it has a bigger effect for better players, exponentially making them more effective compared to the greenies.
Meaning the rookies, which you're trying to appease will get their ass handed to them time and time again due tot eh easier gameplay.
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
Of all people Kouji, I think you should know that we don't do that. Balance has to take into account a huge amount of things. What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players. Everyone knows the barrier to entry for NS2 is high, even with the new tutorials we've been working on. This doesn't mean dumbing down the game, but it's no secret that NS2 has had for a long time issues that have needed addressing for new players. We're taking steps to help ensure new players have a better introduction to the game, and don't walk away from their first play session feeling like they had zero chance at doing anything. We need to grow NS2, not look to the past. The past has clearly not worked. That's why we're starting to see growth compared to this time last year (5 months so far).
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
You CANNOT get significant growth out of this game. It is TOO OLD. Any kind of major improvement would require a significant amount of resources, in which case it would still be better to just leave this game in a good state and start fresh with NS3.
Oh my, I just noticed. But it seems now we're balancing the game around entry level play?
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
perhaps I missed something in the time I've been away but hasn't the average and peak players been going down?
it's trending downwards for 6 months, more worryingly the peak for July dropped massively. That should be raising alarm bells. If you are looking to grow the playerbase that's exactly what it should not be doing. being up YoY for the last 3 months is great and all but it's going in the wrong direction.
Comments
New players can't play the game, period
Yes he was that guy. dePARA doesn't understand that 1.) shi.t game balance is shi.t for pubs too and 2.) regardless of balance unprecise hitboxes are worse than precise hitboxes. With that change the game received a HUGE drop in overall quality and not only that, then they increase skulk HP to "balance" for a change that was terrible anyway and nobody wants to have. So instead of making the game better and more fun by making the skulk smaller and more fun to play, they decided to go into the tank direction and also make that a hidden change since the models didn't increase in size while the hitboxes did.
Oh yea and also it is very fun to play to get sniped from 100m away as Lerk vs shotguns.
These kind of updates limit the gameplay the game has to offer, make it less fun and hitboxes bigger than the models (fade scythe big rofl) are also another hidden mechanic. What is funny because I heard they actually wanted to reduce the amount of hidden mechanics.
I understand that some people think it is fun to deal damage when you miss the target but probably they have not thought about the problem that it is not so fun as an alien.
So you balancing the game around the 2 carrys of each team, congrats.
Smaller skulks=more fun to play? Makes sense, well, no.
The fun of this game comes from the teamplay, good coordinated ambushes are fun. Playing with people who listen and know what todo is fun.
And as i said before, after the HP buff the skulk didnt feel that different to me in early game compared to pre 305.
I'm sorry to say, but that goes against ANY proper gamedesign of a multiplayer game... You always balance around intermediate+ play and add elements like noobtubes. And this can be done from theorycrafting as well, if the theorizers actually have enough game knowledge to do that, able to anticipate what certain changes would do...
But alas, all of this it a moot point people, mostly because the devs have designed themselves into a corner by alienating the vets and being left with mostly new players who leave after something like 20-30 hours? So they cannot design around intermediate/top level play anymore based on playtest/rounds data
And now you're contradicting yourself in second-order. How can the enlarged hitboxes change the fact that most pple don't know how to play the game?
Marine side may be more forgiving (relatively) for new players, but how many times do you see marines running blindly through doorways not checking the ceiling/corners? Not to mention they never keep their distance and choose smart positions, just run towards lifeforms.
On that we agree. But I don't see any way to force it on players
It does for me. Both 305 and 306 brought huge changes in gameplay - for both sides, not only skulks.
And i wonder why the game had always a low playerbase?
Cause all the vets who never going to play other games and stick with the game should end in an HUGE playerbase after 3 years, right.
What a logic.
All this "The vets leaving cause the last changes" is just wrong.
Most of them had left it anyway, with or without the changes.
We had people in the past left the game cause there was no development going on, now they leave cause to much?
Jesus. If you dont like to play for whatever reason stop searching a scapegoat.
No, a large portion of players are leaving because of UNREASONABLE changes, not because of changes.
Can we not fall on the other side of the horse?
I've written pages of arguments, along with others (here and elsewhere).
That's B&W, care to argue about those instead of "people like you"?
But wait, since we are here, let me ask you this: why should we care about a guy's opinion who was clearly in the wrong, yet haven't even bothered to correct himself? You sure you want to go down that road?
Three parasites. This and the effective damage reduction just reduced mine effectiveness by a whole lot.
Tagging is great, other aliens see where they shouldn't step, while still retaining it's area denial function
Of all people Kouji, I think you should know that we don't do that. Balance has to take into account a huge amount of things. What we ARE doing, is trying to make the game more accessible to new players. Everyone knows the barrier to entry for NS2 is high, even with the new tutorials we've been working on. This doesn't mean dumbing down the game, but it's no secret that NS2 has had for a long time issues that have needed addressing for new players. We're taking steps to help ensure new players have a better introduction to the game, and don't walk away from their first play session feeling like they had zero chance at doing anything. We need to grow NS2, not look to the past. The past has clearly not worked. That's why we're starting to see growth compared to this time last year (5 months so far).
We can argue and argue about the various sizes & accuracy of hitboxes. We've done that for years before (I know I have). But now is the time to focus make sure the game feels good and modern if we have any chance of continuing to increase the active playerbase like we have been.
Classic case of good posters departing a forum and leaving only the crappy low end posters to finally have their time in the sun and think they're the source of sage wisdom. ROFL.
So you are basically saying, all NS veterans should go on and search for other games to play, as long as enough new casual players find their way into the game. For me it sounds that you are working towards a NS3 casual console game and NS2 is your marketing campaign.
Best intentions...
I'm sorry, but they are only as good as how they are implemented. And what I see right now, tunnelvision fixing of problems without keeping an eye on the bigger picture. While better options, suggested by the community from vets and people who know their stuff have been completely ignored.
And please don't call me out, when the case you're presenting ambiguous at best. [that edit] I also don't appreciate the selective quote, cause I explained why it is no longer really possible to get proper results due to lack of data from veteran rounds
And of all people, you know I'll definitely speak up when I see wrongdoings, even now when my interest has reached rock bottom. And I'm very unimpressed by the current ripping apart the core of a working game, instead of focusing on making hidden game mechanics more obvious, streaming lining information and adding obvious incentives to push people to do stuff. Instead of adding way to radical changes to the game that once was Natural Selection 2...
1v1 de_dust scrub
Your reasoning is fine. The game is hard and rookies could do with a lower entry.
Sadly the whole surrounding area doesn't seen to match up to real world at the moment.
So it boils down to 'many' players who want to play the game, simply are being put off because:
All the while to get more rookies in, which probably will not stick around due to the abhorrent quality of the game which everyone who isnt zerging weeks on end can see.
Meaning the rookies, which you're trying to appease will get their ass handed to them time and time again due tot eh easier gameplay.
You CANNOT get significant growth out of this game. It is TOO OLD. Any kind of major improvement would require a significant amount of resources, in which case it would still be better to just leave this game in a good state and start fresh with NS3.
You're doing it wrong.
perhaps I missed something in the time I've been away but hasn't the average and peak players been going down?