While the Hitbox change had a noticable impact on the marine winratio, i cant see the "complete change in skulksplay".
Marine vs skulk gameplay, not skulk gameplay. Or rather, the balance in 1v1 encounters. Basically, the amount of bullets it takes to kill a skulk. More bullets need to be shot. Muscle memory needs to be rebuild.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Well, it is that simple @halfofheaven.
The playerbase has drasticly changed over the years.
So you compare the rounds of today with lets say rounds 2 years ago.
2 years ago, the game felt awesome while today you can have one good round from 10 with luck.
But again, im sure if you would play a round today with the competent players from the past you wont feel that much of a difference.
Well, it is that simple @halfofheaven.
The playerbase has drasticly changed over the years.
So you compare the rounds of today with lets say rounds 2 years ago.
2 years ago, the game felt awesome while today you can have one good round from 10 with luck.
But again, im sure if you would play a round today with the competent players from the past you wont feel that much of a difference.
Sure, but it's not just because people are bad at aliens. People are bad in general. And communication is often times non-existant.
I'm not sure there even IS a way to improve this situation, but if there is, it isn't health bars and hitbox changes.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Lets revert to the allmighty 249 build but im sure you wont see any difference.
Leeroy Jenkins skulks would still die like flies, walkerfades getting slaughtered, still no communication or packplay.
Its just hillarious that there really people out there who are thinking that aliens getting wrecked cause some healthbars or a little larger hitbox (with hp buff).
Its just hillarious that there really people out there who are thinking that aliens getting wrecked cause some healthbars or a little larger hitbox (with hp buff).
What's hilarious is your insistence that the problem is specifically bad alien players and nothing else..
There have always been bad players both alien AND marine. For you to be all like "the latest changes would be fine if people didn't suck at the game" is extremely elitist and counter productive... It's presenting yourself with the attitude like "well I can solo 3 fades at once so anyone who can't is just bad"
Im just tired of these "I have no clue how to fix stuff but X has to removed 1st and Y is something noone wanted" threads.
These "The devs killing the game" attitude is counter productive.
I mean skulk across the board at all skill levels are incredibly difficult to play. People CAN do better, but the game is simply asking too much of people. I think there do need to be changes to help the common low skill alien playstyles like making them a little quieter, but I think the majority of the changes need to come from nerfing marine early game pressure and expansion.
Early game marine pace is far too fast for skulks to deal with. If we just slowed that down a little and gave a bit more breathing space for aliens then skulk early game would be less of a problem.
The issue with any change like that is trying to adjust for the already alien friendly mid + late game.
@dePARA let's entertain the thought that there has been an influx of players recently, whom are significantly worse at skulk play compared to the rest of classes.
What exactly is you solution to that again?
On the other hand most of us here gave ideas how to fix balancing/gameplay issues that could actually work, without any assumptions about the player base. I'm not saying that they will work exactly as dreamed up, or if they technically (economically) possible in the first place.
But simply raging about "stupid" new players is not constructive at all. They don't read these posts, so will have no effect on them
Im just tired of these "I have no clue how to fix stuff but X has to removed 1st and Y is something noone wanted" threads.
These "The devs killing the game" attitude is counter productive.
OMGOMGOMG I'm overjoyed because I just got my old forums account back so I'll just say nice thread and let's be friends forever!
(Disclaimer: not really, I don't like people. Good thread though.)
I mean skulk across the board at all skill levels are incredibly difficult to play. People CAN do better, but the game is simply asking too much of people. I think there do need to be changes to help the common low skill alien playstyles like making them a little quieter, but I think the majority of the changes need to come from nerfing marine early game pressure and expansion.
Early game marine pace is far too fast for skulks to deal with. If we just slowed that down a little and gave a bit more breathing space for aliens then skulk early game would be less of a problem.
The issue with any change like that is trying to adjust for the already alien friendly mid + late game.
Make marine base speed increase with armour level? Since, you know, lighter nanites. And stuff.
I mean skulk across the board at all skill levels are incredibly difficult to play. People CAN do better, but the game is simply asking too much of people. I think there do need to be changes to help the common low skill alien playstyles like making them a little quieter, but I think the majority of the changes need to come from nerfing marine early game pressure and expansion.
Early game marine pace is far too fast for skulks to deal with. If we just slowed that down a little and gave a bit more breathing space for aliens then skulk early game would be less of a problem.
The issue with any change like that is trying to adjust for the already alien friendly mid + late game.
Make marine base speed increase with armour level? Since, you know, lighter nanites. And stuff.
I would slightly cut marine walk speed (and maybe buff jps a little in return), and increase the build time of fresh powernodes and RTs.
If you want to try something real new, add a third path of upgrades next to a/w: Speed. That would need some major rebalancing though. (Probably not worth it.)
Increasing build time (aka the most boring time spent in the game) is probably a bad idea. What about just levelling running speed with armour instead of base speed? It wouldn't affect fights, so it probably wouldn't be that hard to balance.
I was thinking removing marine sprint (changing it to a silent walk), and decreasing build time for RTs.
Should stop the insane pressure early game (although expansion might be quicker), but not be much of an issue once map control is established by both teams and allows for no real change in recapping or alien snowball speed
My main focus in playing a skulk was always what is the most optimal way to dodge so i could close the gap into close range most efficiently, rapid a-d ground strafing with a mix of mouse curving, an incredibly rewarding skill in the game that took decent practice, has essentially been wiped off the face of the game because of larger hitboxes. That tiny micro window of getting the enemy's crosshair off of your model for half a second because of a sharp directional change greatly affected how you can charge up to marines (even with great aim). The larger hitbox causes any decent marines aim to never leave the hitbox even if you'v moved left, right, forward or backwards enough to think his crosshair wasn't over your model anymore, it in fact still is (even if the marine is aiming at open air directly next to your model). Seems like you really wanted them to only be ambushing vs a 1v1 engagement because otherwise its suicidal to run at a rine now with a skulk no matter how you move.
I was thinking removing marine sprint (changing it to a silent walk), and decreasing build time for RTs.
Should stop the insane pressure early game (although expansion might be quicker), but not be much of an issue once map control is established by both teams and allows for no real change in recapping or alien snowball speed
Hmm. That would probably work, too, but would make marines a lot more unresponsive before they get jetpack.
Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.
Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.
*cough* Doom *cough*
On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)
My 2 cents without having caught up on the whole thread - I love the way the new hitboxes make the shooting feel. Being able to have confidence that when my crosshair is on top of a skulk I'm definitely hitting them is a big improvement. But clearly that has tremendously far-reaching repercussions on the whole balance of the game so I think we should keep moving forward with new ideas to adjust for it. For example, maybe a buff to Leap speed/distance/biomass is in order? The NS2 version has always been quite weak.
I've never played a game where the community simply "told the devs what to do" and they went and did it. Everybody has an opinion and no one ever agrees unanimously, it's been that way here since the very start of the alpha. The current NS2 team is still well above industry average when it comes to interacting with the community IMO. The forums are so toxic lately though that it's not hard to see why the devs might prefer to keep their own counsel. I wish people would just keep an open mind, play with each patch for a while and then post their honest thoughts without endlessly harping on it.
I've never played a game where the community simply "told the devs what to do" and they went and did it. Everybody has an opinion and no one ever agrees unanimously, it's been that way here since the very start of the alpha. The current NS2 team is still well above industry average when it comes to interacting with the community IMO. The forums are so toxic lately though that it's not hard to see why the devs might prefer to keep their own counsel. I wish people would just keep an open mind, play with each patch for a while and then post their honest thoughts without endlessly harping on it.
uh no the team of subnautica listen to feedbacks, this one does its plan while trying to dodge the drama
Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.
*cough* Doom *cough*
On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)
In Doom you already move extremely fast, so there never arises the issue of needing to move faster. In NS2 this would not be the case. Imagine how frustrating it would be to chase a lifeform around a corner without sprint.
Compare to evolve where you a) are always sprinting and b) are almost out of jetpack/boost fuel, which makes this situation come up a lot.
Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.
*cough* Doom *cough*
On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)
In Doom you already move extremely fast, so there never arises the issue of needing to move faster. In NS2 this would not be the case. Imagine how frustrating it would be to chase a lifeform around a corner without sprint.
Compare to evolve where you a) are always sprinting and b) are almost out of jetpack/boost fuel, which makes this situation come up a lot.
This is a good point. Also, if you compare ns2 to csgo, the difference is aliens are moving faster. So it's fine if both teams are moving slow, but ns2 does have that thing about trying to shoot an alien trying to run. I mean you could still position yourself where you can hopefully get to the escape route of the alien without needing sprint though.
What if the current normal speed is the new sprint or you are always running normally. A new walk button would go slower.
In Doom, at least the original, sprinting was defaulted to always on with a walk button. You could reconfigure to walk with a sprint button if you wanted to.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain there was no sprinting in NS1 and it worked just fine. Everyone would get used to a removal much faster than they think.
Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.
*cough* Doom *cough*
On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)
In Doom you already move extremely fast, so there never arises the issue of needing to move faster. In NS2 this would not be the case. Imagine how frustrating it would be to chase a lifeform around a corner without sprint.
Compare to evolve where you a) are always sprinting and b) are almost out of jetpack/boost fuel, which makes this situation come up a lot.
This is a good point. Also, if you compare ns2 to csgo, the difference is aliens are moving faster. So it's fine if both teams are moving slow, but ns2 does have that thing about trying to shoot an alien trying to run. I mean you could still position yourself where you can hopefully get to the escape route of the alien without needing sprint though.
What if the current normal speed is the new sprint or you are always running normally. A new walk button would go slower.
In Doom, at least the original, sprinting was defaulted to always on with a walk button. You could reconfigure to walk with a sprint button if you wanted to.
The thing is that if you can keep it so that you can only shoot while not sprinting, you're going to have to press an additional button just to be able to shoot. This would not be a good thing.
If you on the other hand let players shoot at max speed (current walk speed) there is (almost) no de facto change you run into the problem I mentioned above.
I wish people would just keep an open mind, play with each patch for a while and then post their honest thoughts without endlessly harping on it.
If you disagree with a change, whatever it is, that's just it. I've read tons of what you may call 'not honest feedbacks' straight after updates that brought a lot of fuss in this forum. I read the same feedbacks after those players have spent hours and weeks playing following those said updates. It appears the previous and current feedbacks are quite close. They've not changed their mind and even if I agree some are willingly throwing negative feedbacks for the lolz, most of them just mean it.
Apparently feedback is 'toxic' and 'mindless group think, circle jerk.' Yes, people coming to the same conclusions individually thru separate clouds of thought is considered group think.
This is really just denial.
We've already been told that they essentially aren't open to feedback. Your must swallow the pill you've been given because mommy knows best.
Comments
The playerbase has drasticly changed over the years.
So you compare the rounds of today with lets say rounds 2 years ago.
2 years ago, the game felt awesome while today you can have one good round from 10 with luck.
But again, im sure if you would play a round today with the competent players from the past you wont feel that much of a difference.
Sure, but it's not just because people are bad at aliens. People are bad in general. And communication is often times non-existant.
I'm not sure there even IS a way to improve this situation, but if there is, it isn't health bars and hitbox changes.
Leeroy Jenkins skulks would still die like flies, walkerfades getting slaughtered, still no communication or packplay.
Its just hillarious that there really people out there who are thinking that aliens getting wrecked cause some healthbars or a little larger hitbox (with hp buff).
What's hilarious is your insistence that the problem is specifically bad alien players and nothing else..
There have always been bad players both alien AND marine. For you to be all like "the latest changes would be fine if people didn't suck at the game" is extremely elitist and counter productive... It's presenting yourself with the attitude like "well I can solo 3 fades at once so anyone who can't is just bad"
Atleast im not whining nonstop about every little change and writing something like this:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/144137/list-of-qol-changes
Im just tired of these "I have no clue how to fix stuff but X has to removed 1st and Y is something noone wanted" threads.
These "The devs killing the game" attitude is counter productive.
Early game marine pace is far too fast for skulks to deal with. If we just slowed that down a little and gave a bit more breathing space for aliens then skulk early game would be less of a problem.
The issue with any change like that is trying to adjust for the already alien friendly mid + late game.
What exactly is you solution to that again?
On the other hand most of us here gave ideas how to fix balancing/gameplay issues that could actually work, without any assumptions about the player base. I'm not saying that they will work exactly as dreamed up, or if they technically (economically) possible in the first place.
But simply raging about "stupid" new players is not constructive at all. They don't read these posts, so will have no effect on them
(Disclaimer: not really, I don't like people. Good thread though.)
Make marine base speed increase with armour level? Since, you know, lighter nanites. And stuff.
I would slightly cut marine walk speed (and maybe buff jps a little in return), and increase the build time of fresh powernodes and RTs.
If you want to try something real new, add a third path of upgrades next to a/w: Speed. That would need some major rebalancing though. (Probably not worth it.)
Should stop the insane pressure early game (although expansion might be quicker), but not be much of an issue once map control is established by both teams and allows for no real change in recapping or alien snowball speed
Hmm. That would probably work, too, but would make marines a lot more unresponsive before they get jetpack.
Personally I don't like the feeling of not being able to move faster when I need to in any game, though.
*cough* Doom *cough*
On a different note, I think JP's would work better if they were more like a long pulsed-jump, rocket-jump, etc. and maybe if skulks could do some kind of strafing or something like that (multi-directional leap?)
Bam. Shooting feels better and no impact on balance..
People have been requesting slightly smaller skulks for as long as I've been playing also.
Maybe it's not unanimous, but an overwhelming majority has been opposed to this in one way or another.
uh no the team of subnautica listen to feedbacks, this one does its plan while trying to dodge the drama
In Doom you already move extremely fast, so there never arises the issue of needing to move faster. In NS2 this would not be the case. Imagine how frustrating it would be to chase a lifeform around a corner without sprint.
Compare to evolve where you a) are always sprinting and b) are almost out of jetpack/boost fuel, which makes this situation come up a lot.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case that the majority of people playing now don't come on here let alone care enough to post.
This is a good point. Also, if you compare ns2 to csgo, the difference is aliens are moving faster. So it's fine if both teams are moving slow, but ns2 does have that thing about trying to shoot an alien trying to run. I mean you could still position yourself where you can hopefully get to the escape route of the alien without needing sprint though.
What if the current normal speed is the new sprint or you are always running normally. A new walk button would go slower.
The thing is that if you can keep it so that you can only shoot while not sprinting, you're going to have to press an additional button just to be able to shoot. This would not be a good thing.
If you on the other hand let players shoot at max speed (current walk speed) there is (almost) no de facto change you run into the problem I mentioned above.
Because they used to be part of that community before getting hired?
Define 'toxic'.
If you disagree with a change, whatever it is, that's just it. I've read tons of what you may call 'not honest feedbacks' straight after updates that brought a lot of fuss in this forum. I read the same feedbacks after those players have spent hours and weeks playing following those said updates. It appears the previous and current feedbacks are quite close. They've not changed their mind and even if I agree some are willingly throwing negative feedbacks for the lolz, most of them just mean it.
This is really just denial.
We've already been told that they essentially aren't open to feedback. Your must swallow the pill you've been given because mommy knows best.