It is your own definition. I've given you the dictionary definition, and explained many times that quality applies to many different facets.
You are wrong. And that's okay if you don't mind being wrong.
Opinions/preference/taste do matter in determining quality, because quality is more than what you think it is. That's why you're wrong. You're incapable of understanding that quality is not just a one dimensional, black and white thing.
I don't know how you can honestly accuse me of "adding things to it which have no place" and then go on to give me another meaningless analogy which really does have no place here, talking about docks and cookies and bridges and other such meaningless stuff.
My cookie is tasty, I like it, yet you and 5 other people don't like my cookie even though it's made from the best ingredients, most likely the best cookie ever made...
Who's opinion is more valuable to determine the cookie quality... NEITHER!!!
You have to DEFINE QUALITY before you can answer! I've told you that about 20 times now. Pay attention;
If you're talking about production quality, it could be the best cookie in the world. You made it, so you'd know. Unless you messed up.
If you're talking about how it tastes, if it tastes like crap, that's a person's opinion. If it's not a good tasting cookie then it's a BAD QUALITY cookie and me and the other 5 are right.
QUALITY CAN BE APPLIED TO VARIOUS ASPECTS OF A SUBJECT. NOT JUST PRODUCTION VALUE.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2016
I think it's time to rethink what you are on about, cause I'm not wrong and all your nonsense is starting to contradict itself...
Also that cookie bit tasting like crap according to 5/6 people still had no bearing on quality as they are opinions, neither has the 1/6 who likes it.
You keep adding things to what determines quality and adding opinions as being valueble in that process. That shit is starting to become hilarious, I'm afraid...
You keep adding things to what determines quality and adding opinions as being valueble in that process. That shit is starting to become hilarious, I'm afraid...
No I don't. You just can't understand this frankly simple concept and keep accusing me of things you yourself are doing. How you determine quality has never changed, and I've said from the very beginning that it applies to many facets. Not just your stupid "production quality" definition where quality means one thing and one thing only. Read the dictionary. Listen to people use the word in so many ways. Whatever.
I've been doing this for too long not to see through badly constructed childish straw men. They are of a terrible quality.
It would be hilarious, if it weren't so incredibly sad. I expected more from you. Why exactly are you so certain that "quality" means only one thing when it's used in our language for so much more?
If a game had a great story, would you really not say that story was good quality? That's your opinion. Your opinion matters in defining quality. The end.
Uhm, peeps? Maybe not get into a fight about something this... well, you're evidently not going to come to terms or convince each other and it's not going to affect either of you, so maybe a cool down period? I mean, if we go back to what caused all this:
I hate Nintendo and have never enjoyed a Nintendo game or a game played on a Nintendo platform.
No.
Then it's not even about quality. It started with denying other people something based on one's own preferences. Which is not cool. Also since it is followed up by this:
I didn't deny anything to anyone. I'm not in charge of whether or not it gets released on the Switch, I don't have that power. I don't care if it does or doesn't.
The "no" is because it won't happen anyway. There's no way Subnautica will run well on the Switch and I don't see anybody going to the effort to port it.
OP specifically asked for our opinions on it being developed for the switch. I answered.
Edit; Besides, if I did have the power to deny anyone, I'd deny all console versions until the game is released on PC and finished, patched and works 100%. There shouldn't be even a single penny or minute of time spent on developing the game for other platforms if it takes away from the main PC development.
The argument between me and @Kouji_San did not start there, it started when he claimed "Not liking them is one thing, but they are top quality games nonetheless" and I disagreed on his use of the term. But anyway, it's a semantic argument, not the first I've had, and won't be the last.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Owkay one last try... btw insults and passive aggressive remarks don't make your position any stronger... So, this is what you keep saying. If someone doesn't like it, quality is bad. And I've asked you plenty of times now... What happens to this quality statement, if another person does like it...
If your answer is anything other than, opinions do not determine quality or neither opinions has any influence on quality. Than I just don't know how to break it to you, but you are sooo wrong and just refuse to admit it! And story preference is entirely based on taste, how in holy hell do you want to determine the quality of a story, based on taste, taste differs from person to person. Story quality? Try some story writing rules/basics, sentence structure, cinematic/comedic timing, camera work, sound design instead, to determine quality...
As a matter of fact, the Nintendo game quality has yet to be determined by us if we're using either opinion. I like em, you don't, so what does this tell us about the quality, hmm? Quite...
Good things can be enjoyed by few, bad things can be enjoyed by a many. Yet their preference does not determine the good or the bad...
Owkay one last try... btw insults and passive aggressive remarks don't make your position any stronger... So, this is what you keep saying. If someone doesn't like it, quality is bad. And I've asked you plenty of times now... What happens to this quality statement, if another person does like it...
First of all, I haven't insulted you. If I do insult you, I'll probably get banned.
As for the answer to the question, again, I've told you time and time and time again.
The person who likes the game, thinks it is a good quality game.
The person who doesn't like the game, thinks it is a bad quality game. Because judging quality can be entirely subjective. Not. Always. Objective.
That's what you're failing to grasp. Are you reading this? Hello? It's right there, on the line above this one, right there, look, read it, so I don't have to tell you for the 100th time.
Quality is not just how well a game performs.
Why am I having to repeat myself so much? This is so easy to understand.
As a matter of fact, the Nintendo game quality has yet to be determined by us if we're using either opinion. I like em, you don't, so what does this tell us about the quality, hmm? Quite..
It tells us you think they're good quality, good games. And I think they're poor quality, crap games. Understand now? No of course you don't.
Good things can be enjoyed by few, bad things can be enjoyed by a many. Yet their preference does not determine the good or the bad...
Yes it does. That's what good or bad means. Good or bad is entirely based on preference. It's an opinion, by it's very definition. Good and bad are the most subjective things in existence!
For God's sake man, the entire school of philosophical study was founded on that very principle!
how in holy hell do you want to determine the quality of a story, based on taste, taste differs from person to person. Story quality? Try some story writing rules/basics, sentence structure, cinematic/comedic timing, camera work, sound design instead, to determine quality...
Because the personal preference of the reader determines whether or not it's a quality piece of writing.
Harry Potter, while being well written, is NOT a quality book. It's story, plot, setting, etc is all terrible in my own, personal, subjective opinion. It is a low quality book, despite having high quality writing.
You could judge a piece of prose by it's structure, it's grammatical accuracy, it's spelling. That would be an objective judgement of quality.
But you could judge it on it's content, it's story, it's plot, the character development, the immersion. That is a subjective judgement of quality.
So it's both good and bad quality, based on different aspects. That's what you're not understanding. To you, it can only be one or the other.
Seriously, how many of your examples do we have to go through before you get this concept?
I'm done now, seriously. If you don't get it by now, you never will.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Wow, I think it's best for you to stay completely quiet, if you cannot even grasp the simplest of logic...
Opinions/reviews/critics have no bearing on the quality of a product, only on the actual success of a product, simple yet beyond your reach it seems. Just go, you were done before you even started your contradicting nonsense
You are genuinely the most hypocritical and illogical person I've ever encountered online or otherwise. And I frequently debate religion, ethics and morality. It's one of my favourite pass-times.
But you took the biscuit.
You can't even point out where I've been contradictory, because I haven't. The more you say it doesn't make it more true.
Why don't you try actually pointing out where I'm wrong instead of crying and acting like I don't understand you?
Why don't you do more than give another ridiculous example which actually disproves your point?
This is like watching someone shoot themself in the leg and then accuse me of doing it.
The way I see it is if someone made a vase, and it was of a great quality, made from the finest materials, painted with the most expensive paints, brushed on with the most fine brushes, moulded with the cleanest of hands, it is an amazing product as it is. Then, say, if someone doesn't like the design that's for them to decide, but they cannot argue with the quality of the product that the craftsman has made. That's how I see it anyway.
Sorry if that's analogy's been made already, just can't be arsed to sit here and scroll through this pointless god damn argument.
You are genuinely the most hypocritical and illogical person I've ever encountered online or otherwise. And I frequently debate religion, ethics and morality. It's one of my favourite pass-times.
But you took the biscuit.
You can't even point out where I've been contradictory, because I haven't. The more you say it doesn't make it more true.
Why don't you try actually pointing out where I'm wrong instead of crying and acting like I don't understand you?
Why don't you do more than give another ridiculous example which actually disproves your point?
This is like watching someone shoot themself in the leg and then accuse me of doing it.
Stop projecting WTF seriously, just stop this, its embarrassing.
You might see it as your favourite pastime, but you really suck at it. When you're wrong you're wrong and you just keep on spouting utter nonsense and talking down as if "you know something". Get over yourself, you are wrong just accept it!
And James, watch out now, he won't get that basic logic and might have a go after you now with his book of nonsense
For a moment there I was hoping you were trolling, but I'm afraid I was wrong about that...
What's the matter, still can't provide any evidence of where I've been contradictory and not in fact absolutely schooled you? Oh dear.
Nice bait, mature
I can't be arsed to look it up. It was something about... Two opinions, yet only one matters according to you. And to add to that, the one that "is right" actually having influence on the quality of a product. Who validates these opinions and how are they connected to the quality of a product, a product of which they (with opinion) have no part in creating or are part of in any way, shape or form
My point has always been the same, it hasn't changed. Quality means a lot of different things based on the person perceiving it. It can be both objective and subjective.
No contradiction, no bait, it's simple.
If you disagree that's fine, that's one thing. But you can't say I'm wrong because it's an objective fact.
So come on, prove me wrong if you're so sure I am.
You can say all you want, "my definition of quality is my own"... However, it's not that I just think quality is purely technical. In fact, that is the ONLY way to judge a game's actual QUALITY. Not going along with that and constantly draggin' personal preference and taste in here, that serves no purpose in deciding the quality of a game...
Right, so story, gameplay, immersion, enjoyability, all of that means nothing. The story has no impact on a game's quality? The immersion means nothing?
Now, show me one place where I've "made something up" or one example of me "contradicting myself."
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I just did.
Ooooh wait I see what you are spouting on about... It's all in your own world/mind. In your world those games are bad cause you say so. Well step into the real world laddy, cause your opinion doesn't matter it's just fluff. Something is either good quality or varying degrees of quality from good to bad. And what you happen to think does not change that level of quality (good to bad). your opinion isn't as important as you think it is. Well good to see, what you meant. funny though it has no logic backing it up and is just in your mind.
Ooooh wait I see what you are spouting on about... It's all in your own world/mind. In your world those games are bad cause you say so. Well step into the real world laddy, cause your opinion doesn't matter it's just fluff. Something is either good quality or varying degrees of quality from good to bad. And what you happen to think does not change that level of quality (good to bad). your opinion isn't as important as you think it is. Well good to see, what you meant. funny though it has no logic backing it up and is just in your mind.
This is meaningless drivel.
Either prove me wrong or I'll take it as you admitting you're wrong.
I just want to add to my point an a controlled sort of neutral manner, so that I don't get dragged down this rabbit hole.
It works the other way around too. You can like something that's really bad, but you have to accept and realise that it is still not that well made, even if you do like it. Just another example off the top of my head.
Hah, I don't know, is it? G'night!
If you decide to grow some balls and actually show me any of this "contradicting" or "making up" things, I'm still willing to listen. But we both know that won't happen.
Already dd that for you Just read it's not that hard. Use the words in this thread and stitch together the answer you like or rather don't want to hear...
SkopeWouldn't you like to know ;)Join Date: 2016-06-07Member: 218212Members
Wow, started off as a question if Subnautica could run on the Switch, and turned to a console war/opinion war. It is amazing what we humans can do. I'll just stay over here, don't mind me.
omg, internet drama as always, just kiss and make up, it ain't like this is gonna do anything to change the society or something. We all have our opinions, especially on games, people like the graphics and game play, some don't, just accept the fact that we have opinions, and if you can't, then just ignore them. @EnglishInfidel had his attention he hoped for saying Nintendo games are trash (I loved them since i was a baby on the NES), it should have been over now.
This discussion was created from comments split from: Subnautica for Switch.
I also gave it an appropriate title. Enjoy, kids.
Oh boy, @Kouji_San and @EnglishInfidel are not going to like that. Good thing you're a dev @Foxy and you can shut down any comment you want, 'cause if you weren't, I don't think you'd ever hear the end of the squabbling.
I do like it actually, I think its pretty hilarious.
The squabbling was over the moment I realised Kouji couldn't back up a single thing he said and he's full of nothing but hot air and straw men arguments. He lost, end of story.
I do like it actually, I think its pretty hilarious.
The squabbling was over the moment I realised Kouji couldn't back up a single thing he said and he's full of nothing but hot air and straw men arguments. He lost, end of story.
The thread may as well be closed.
Well, better that the argument is ended than left going, even if neither side is satisfied. I for one don't want new Subnautica forum members to see this as there first impression of the community. We might get a reputation of being like some other communities .
This discussion was created from comments split from: Subnautica for Switch.
I also gave it an appropriate title. Enjoy, kids.
Oh boy, @Kouji_San and @EnglishInfidel are not going to like that. Good thing you're a dev @Foxy and you can shut down any comment you want, 'cause if you weren't, I don't think you'd ever hear the end of the squabbling.
I'm not a dev, but I can shut down any comment. *waggles stick around angrily*
In my opinion, quality is a judgement of an object based on its standing relative to other objects of a similar nature. Because it can only be compared to objects of a similar nature, it is subjective, as no "grand scale" for "quality" exists. However, this subjective rating of the object's individual parts can be viewed as an amount of objective truth- it is objectively true by consideration of only the other objects that the original object is judged by.
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More objective bit
More Subjective bit
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I think this judging of "quality" is a function best served by official rating systems, and, to a lesser extent, the democratic consensus of the object's rating. This democratic consensus consists mainly of the reviews and opinions of critics/fans. However, I think that official rating systems (such as those for games or movies) are the most objective that we will get about "quality," even if they tell us very little (like the maturity rating, or the classification of game RPG, FPS and the like).
To re-use @EnglishInfidel's image, that's just my opinion, man
Comments
You are wrong. And that's okay if you don't mind being wrong.
Opinions/preference/taste do matter in determining quality, because quality is more than what you think it is. That's why you're wrong. You're incapable of understanding that quality is not just a one dimensional, black and white thing.
I don't know how you can honestly accuse me of "adding things to it which have no place" and then go on to give me another meaningless analogy which really does have no place here, talking about docks and cookies and bridges and other such meaningless stuff.
You have to DEFINE QUALITY before you can answer! I've told you that about 20 times now. Pay attention;
If you're talking about production quality, it could be the best cookie in the world. You made it, so you'd know. Unless you messed up.
If you're talking about how it tastes, if it tastes like crap, that's a person's opinion. If it's not a good tasting cookie then it's a BAD QUALITY cookie and me and the other 5 are right.
QUALITY CAN BE APPLIED TO VARIOUS ASPECTS OF A SUBJECT. NOT JUST PRODUCTION VALUE.
Also that cookie bit tasting like crap according to 5/6 people still had no bearing on quality as they are opinions, neither has the 1/6 who likes it.
You keep adding things to what determines quality and adding opinions as being valueble in that process. That shit is starting to become hilarious, I'm afraid...
Are you serious? You can't be for real.
Yes their opinions do have a bearing on it's quality. Deal with it. And learn what words actually mean before you use them.
No I don't. You just can't understand this frankly simple concept and keep accusing me of things you yourself are doing. How you determine quality has never changed, and I've said from the very beginning that it applies to many facets. Not just your stupid "production quality" definition where quality means one thing and one thing only. Read the dictionary. Listen to people use the word in so many ways. Whatever.
I've been doing this for too long not to see through badly constructed childish straw men. They are of a terrible quality.
It would be hilarious, if it weren't so incredibly sad. I expected more from you. Why exactly are you so certain that "quality" means only one thing when it's used in our language for so much more?
If a game had a great story, would you really not say that story was good quality? That's your opinion. Your opinion matters in defining quality. The end.
Then it's not even about quality. It started with denying other people something based on one's own preferences. Which is not cool. Also since it is followed up by this:
Which 1+1's this to not just "denying other people" but specifically "denying kids".
Subnautica on the Switch would affect none of us negatively, so if it would be technically possible, why not?
The "no" is because it won't happen anyway. There's no way Subnautica will run well on the Switch and I don't see anybody going to the effort to port it.
OP specifically asked for our opinions on it being developed for the switch. I answered.
Edit; Besides, if I did have the power to deny anyone, I'd deny all console versions until the game is released on PC and finished, patched and works 100%. There shouldn't be even a single penny or minute of time spent on developing the game for other platforms if it takes away from the main PC development.
The argument between me and @Kouji_San did not start there, it started when he claimed "Not liking them is one thing, but they are top quality games nonetheless" and I disagreed on his use of the term. But anyway, it's a semantic argument, not the first I've had, and won't be the last.
If your answer is anything other than, opinions do not determine quality or neither opinions has any influence on quality. Than I just don't know how to break it to you, but you are sooo wrong and just refuse to admit it! And story preference is entirely based on taste, how in holy hell do you want to determine the quality of a story, based on taste, taste differs from person to person. Story quality? Try some story writing rules/basics, sentence structure, cinematic/comedic timing, camera work, sound design instead, to determine quality...
As a matter of fact, the Nintendo game quality has yet to be determined by us if we're using either opinion. I like em, you don't, so what does this tell us about the quality, hmm? Quite...
Good things can be enjoyed by few, bad things can be enjoyed by a many. Yet their preference does not determine the good or the bad...
First of all, I haven't insulted you. If I do insult you, I'll probably get banned.
As for the answer to the question, again, I've told you time and time and time again.
The person who likes the game, thinks it is a good quality game.
The person who doesn't like the game, thinks it is a bad quality game.
Because judging quality can be entirely subjective. Not. Always. Objective.
That's what you're failing to grasp. Are you reading this? Hello? It's right there, on the line above this one, right there, look, read it, so I don't have to tell you for the 100th time.
Quality is not just how well a game performs.
Why am I having to repeat myself so much? This is so easy to understand.
Am I a mirror? Did we swap bodies at some point? I'm beginning to genuinely wonder if you're touched in the head.
It tells us you think they're good quality, good games. And I think they're poor quality, crap games. Understand now? No of course you don't.
Yes it does. That's what good or bad means. Good or bad is entirely based on preference. It's an opinion, by it's very definition. Good and bad are the most subjective things in existence!
For God's sake man, the entire school of philosophical study was founded on that very principle!
Because the personal preference of the reader determines whether or not it's a quality piece of writing.
Harry Potter, while being well written, is NOT a quality book. It's story, plot, setting, etc is all terrible in my own, personal, subjective opinion. It is a low quality book, despite having high quality writing.
You could judge a piece of prose by it's structure, it's grammatical accuracy, it's spelling. That would be an objective judgement of quality.
But you could judge it on it's content, it's story, it's plot, the character development, the immersion. That is a subjective judgement of quality.
So it's both good and bad quality, based on different aspects. That's what you're not understanding. To you, it can only be one or the other.
Seriously, how many of your examples do we have to go through before you get this concept?
I'm done now, seriously. If you don't get it by now, you never will.
Opinions/reviews/critics have no bearing on the quality of a product, only on the actual success of a product, simple yet beyond your reach it seems. Just go, you were done before you even started your contradicting nonsense
You are genuinely the most hypocritical and illogical person I've ever encountered online or otherwise. And I frequently debate religion, ethics and morality. It's one of my favourite pass-times.
But you took the biscuit.
You can't even point out where I've been contradictory, because I haven't. The more you say it doesn't make it more true.
Why don't you try actually pointing out where I'm wrong instead of crying and acting like I don't understand you?
Why don't you do more than give another ridiculous example which actually disproves your point?
This is like watching someone shoot themself in the leg and then accuse me of doing it.
Sorry if that's analogy's been made already, just can't be arsed to sit here and scroll through this pointless god damn argument.
Stop projecting WTF seriously, just stop this, its embarrassing.
You might see it as your favourite pastime, but you really suck at it. When you're wrong you're wrong and you just keep on spouting utter nonsense and talking down as if "you know something". Get over yourself, you are wrong just accept it!
And James, watch out now, he won't get that basic logic and might have a go after you now with his book of nonsense
For a moment there I was hoping you were trolling, but I'm afraid I was wrong about that...
What's the matter, still can't provide any evidence of where I've been contradictory and not in fact absolutely schooled you? Oh dear.
Nice bait, mature
I can't be arsed to look it up. It was something about... Two opinions, yet only one matters according to you. And to add to that, the one that "is right" actually having influence on the quality of a product. Who validates these opinions and how are they connected to the quality of a product, a product of which they (with opinion) have no part in creating or are part of in any way, shape or form
I'm still waiting.
My point has always been the same, it hasn't changed. Quality means a lot of different things based on the person perceiving it. It can be both objective and subjective.
No contradiction, no bait, it's simple.
If you disagree that's fine, that's one thing. But you can't say I'm wrong because it's an objective fact.
So come on, prove me wrong if you're so sure I am.
Right, so story, gameplay, immersion, enjoyability, all of that means nothing. The story has no impact on a game's quality? The immersion means nothing?
Now, show me one place where I've "made something up" or one example of me "contradicting myself."
Why aren't you doing it?!? Because you can't.
Ooooh wait I see what you are spouting on about... It's all in your own world/mind. In your world those games are bad cause you say so. Well step into the real world laddy, cause your opinion doesn't matter it's just fluff. Something is either good quality or varying degrees of quality from good to bad. And what you happen to think does not change that level of quality (good to bad). your opinion isn't as important as you think it is. Well good to see, what you meant. funny though it has no logic backing it up and is just in your mind.
Except you didn't.
This is meaningless drivel.
Either prove me wrong or I'll take it as you admitting you're wrong.
Okay fine. You admit defeat. Good.
It works the other way around too. You can like something that's really bad, but you have to accept and realise that it is still not that well made, even if you do like it. Just another example off the top of my head.
Okay, I'm going now.
Sure buddy whatever makes you sleep at night, complete denial is such a sad thing
If you decide to grow some balls and actually show me any of this "contradicting" or "making up" things, I'm still willing to listen. But we both know that won't happen.
Again... except you didn't.
(Honestly, no one is gonna win like this)
Thanks homie.
I split this thread out from the the other one at a users request. I also gave it an appropriate title. Enjoy, kids.
Oh boy, @Kouji_San and @EnglishInfidel are not going to like that. Good thing you're a dev @Foxy and you can shut down any comment you want, 'cause if you weren't, I don't think you'd ever hear the end of the squabbling.
The squabbling was over the moment I realised Kouji couldn't back up a single thing he said and he's full of nothing but hot air and straw men arguments. He lost, end of story.
The thread may as well be closed.
Well, better that the argument is ended than left going, even if neither side is satisfied. I for one don't want new Subnautica forum members to see this as there first impression of the community. We might get a reputation of being like some other communities
I'm not a dev, but I can shut down any comment. *waggles stick around angrily*
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More objective bit
More Subjective bit
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V
I think this judging of "quality" is a function best served by official rating systems, and, to a lesser extent, the democratic consensus of the object's rating. This democratic consensus consists mainly of the reviews and opinions of critics/fans. However, I think that official rating systems (such as those for games or movies) are the most objective that we will get about "quality," even if they tell us very little (like the maturity rating, or the classification of game RPG, FPS and the like).
To re-use @EnglishInfidel's image, that's just my opinion, man