I think it's a bit more important in this game than in other games.
We're a silent protagonist, and it's nothing more than a proxy for the player, not a predefined character with a backstory, dialogue and all the bells and whistles. As a male, I feel a bit more immersed when I hear a male sounding voice yelling in pain.
For that reason I can empathise with female players wanting to play as a female. Anything that increases immersion can only be a positive.
I'm all for it. Especially considering how little work (comparatively) it would take to implement.
And if you'll allow me a little male piggery, chicks in wet suits are hot.
Gender is genetic. It is not something you can change due to a decision or a surgical knife. However, masculinity and femininity are social constructs that should be separated from the classic gender stereotypes. A person is stuck with their gender, but they are free to exhibit masculine and feminine behaviour.
I'm not going to pretend I can carry an argument for people whose gender does not fit the cisbinary, but I know that statement is incorrect (people who are intersex are the first to come to mind) and weirdly dictating who people are. Folks don't decide their gender - they figure it out. And a little bit of support for what is a difficult journey with regularly health- and lifethreatening consequences won't be held against you.
For what it's worth, until a few years ago I reasoned like you. Things happened within my circles. Bottomline, whatever one may think of gender, it isn't worth putting that before other people's happiness, health, and safety.
Intersex is genetics. Genetics defines our looks, our gender, and our susceptibility towards certain health problems. It is a combination of genetics and environment that defines who we are attracted to, what we define as, our skills, and other aspects of our lives. It is getting to the point where gender is only important in reproduction. Some of the new "genders" are due to people conflicting with social norms of commonly accepted male and female behaviour.
Creating more and more "genders" is just a method of segregating us into more groups instead of uniting together. It creates an us vs. them attitude that should be avoided at all costs since we see evidence of that happening with certain people ignoring someone else's opinion due to the ignored person being a white cis male. It shouldn't matter that people are separated into gender, race, country, and sexual preference. The only group that should matter is that we are all humans and when alien life is discovered, the only group that really matters is that we are all Sapient Lifeforms.
Gender is genetic. It is not something you can change due to a decision or a surgical knife. However, masculinity and femininity are social constructs that should be separated from the classic gender stereotypes. A person is stuck with their gender, but they are free to exhibit masculine and feminine behaviour.
I'm not going to pretend I can carry an argument for people whose gender does not fit the cisbinary, but I know that statement is incorrect (people who are intersex are the first to come to mind) and weirdly dictating who people are. Folks don't decide their gender - they figure it out. And a little bit of support for what is a difficult journey with regularly health- and lifethreatening consequences won't be held against you.
For what it's worth, until a few years ago I reasoned like you. Things happened within my circles. Bottomline, whatever one may think of gender, it isn't worth putting that before other people's happiness, health, and safety.
Intersex is genetics. Genetics defines our looks, our gender, and our susceptibility towards certain health problems. It is a combination of genetics and environment that defines who we are attracted to, what we define as, our skills, and other aspects of our lives. It is getting to the point where gender is only important in reproduction. Some of the new "genders" are due to people conflicting with social norms of commonly accepted male and female behaviour.
Creating more and more "genders" is just a method of segregating us into more groups instead of uniting together. It creates an us vs. them attitude that should be avoided at all costs since we see evidence of that happening with certain people ignoring someone else's opinion due to the ignored person being a white cis male. It shouldn't matter that people are separated into gender, race, country, and sexual preference. The only group that should matter is that we are all humans and when alien life is discovered, the only group that really matters is that we are all Sapient Lifeforms.
Julian, I know most of us can't see you, but just because there's an alternate gender option doesn't mean it's a crazy feminist! Not all feminists are that way.
Calarand77lurking in general forumsJoin Date: 2016-01-22Member: 211786Members
I think what personally hurt me the most about Subnautica's female player model debate was the initial attitude from the devs. I remember that very offensive and hurtful poll one of the devs confronted the players with, where the choice was basically between an epic, detailed, super developed game and a... single female model. The poll was purposefully worded as a hard either/or, as if it was supposed to take 100% of their resources to have the model done.
Further commentary from the same dev only made the situation worse. He said that - I paraphrase here, because I honestly can't be arsed to look for this verbal garbage to quote - female model was not necessary, not relevant, and would not bring anything new into the game. When I read that, I felt like I was slapped in the face, cliche as it may sound. That man had the audacity to tell me that I did not matter. That my enjoyment of the game, my immersion, were somehow less important than that of the men. That was the one and only time I regretted buying Subnautica and giving my hard earned money to the man who would disrespect me so damn much.
Anyway, in all the arguments I've seen so far, the important thing to remember is that it is easy for men to write female player models off as unimportant, because men have ALWAYS been represented in 99% of the games. Male is pretty much the default gender (and not only in games!), and in the extremely rare cases where there is only a female protagonist to play as - like in Tomb Raider, for example - the model is hyper-sexualized to appeal to the MALE eye and make it entertaining for them. All the skin tight outfits, skimpy armors, and giant, gravity-defying boobs are there for men to enjoy, not for women to feel included. Sad but true.
Perhaps that's why part of me is gleefully enjoying the infamous "dong slider" and pecs physics in Conan Exiles now. For once I can create a hyper-sexualized MALE character and have a silly giggle at his equipment flapping on the wind like a banner of masculinity... I'm not sure it's a step in the right direction for games, but at least there is a female model there as well, available right from the start, and in the very early access stage of the game's development, at that. Enough said.
You're thinking of sex. A person's sex is genetic. Gender is a social identifier referring to a collection of behaviors that a culture views as being masculine or feminine that is actually independent of their naughty bits.
For the people saying "There's no need for a female character" I just have one question - Who's it hurting? I'm not a developer, but given that the Trello seems to HAVE a model for a female character already, why NOT throw her in for those who want it? It's not like Subnautica's narrative is so tightly tied to the player's sex that it suffers for having a female character. It's not like The Witcher, where making Geralt a woman would require a LOT of changes to the narrative.
How many game properties feature a female-only protagonist? I'll give you Tomb Raider and Metroid for free, but if gender really didn't matter, where are the rest? Can we even think of 5? Across all platforms even?
Here's a fun game. Name a female scientist - who's name is not Marie Curie.
Don't get me wrong, Subnautica does plenty of things right. The voice of the PDA is at least female, as well as the base, and we do have Marguerit - but what of the rest of the Aurora survivors? I don't recall any of them being female.
It's a little depressing that a game about exploring the *ocean* - won't have a female option until release. If anything the devs are missing out on potential market share. The paper I linked earlier shows that 57% of undergrad oceanography majors are female, so they're not addressing a significant potential market.
They're going to add a female option and it's fine by me, but as a silent character with no backstory, third person or speech. The character isn't even named so no difference there. The gender is not visible in this game in any way, and would make a difference only in a few situations and would be only visual even in those.
But that being said, it's easy to implement, just another 3D model and sound effects for being hurt. It making only a little difference is not a proper argument when it still makes some, and it's not that much work so there are no real arguments against it.
The bottom line is, yes you should add it (this should be a poll)
Ps: TBH without all this debate about a female character, I wouldn't probably even be sure about the character's gender. Aside from the trailer, there's nothing that would tell for sure if the character is male or female. There are some features of course that are more common with males (for example the lower voice when hurt), but they're not that uncommon with females.
How many game properties feature a female-only protagonist? I'll give you Tomb Raider and Metroid for free, but if gender really didn't matter, where are the rest? Can we even think of 5? Across all platforms even?
Not to disprove you, just listing bad ass woman/girls in game
- Jade from Beyond Good and Evil was a good female protagonist, that game is also highly underrated
- Chell from Portal a kinda Gordon Freeman style silent protagonist bad ass
- Faith from Mirrors Edge
- Jill from Resident Evil
- Ellie from The last of Us
- Aya from Parasite Eve
- I think Dirty Bomb does a fine job with Proxy, Sparks, Aura, Kira, Nader and Aimee
- As does Overwatch with Pharah. Sombra, Tracer, Mei, Widowmaker, D.Va, Ana, Mercy and Symmetra
- -And then there's TF2 Fan made female alternatives are there, but Valve don't care. Kinda weird what with their own clothing/hat additions..........
- Zoey and Rochelle, L4D
- And since we're here... Natural Selection 2!
Also yes I do count Lara Croft as one of these awesome characters. Sure she's a damn fine looking lady and they use that as a selling point, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it doesn't change the fact that she is a pure bad ass with a cool backstory
Metroid was a bit of a funny one, we all thought she was a man and than came off the helmet.
It's not just woman, men are also over the top good looking for the most part (not just in games), there's just more of em so you kinda lose track of that (can't see the trees because of the forest). The thing which bothers me is that for a lot of games where there are armor sets where the female set is just... Well made to be scantily clothed and loses all believably...
The thing which bothers me is that for a lot of games where there are armor sets where the female set is just... Well made to be scantily clothed and loses all believably...
Yep. I studied Medieval history and when you combine the ridiculous female armor in games with the equally ridiculous impractical or just plain dangerous armor even the males wear, well, it's a recipe for one very angry English Infidel.
It's not just woman, men are also over the top good looking for the most part (not just in games), there's just more of em so you kinda lose track of that (can't see the trees because of the forest).
I'd pay a dollar for DLC that let you play as an overweight Scotty from the original Star Trek movies.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2017
Hehe yeah, some people would still find the big man a sex beast though
Also just throw that "female protagonists in video games" into Google, you're bound to find many more awesome games. These were just of the top of my head. Borderlands also has a few chars with Lilith, Maya, Nisha, Athena and Gaige
It's not just woman, men are also over the top good looking for the most part (not just in games), there's just more of em so you kinda lose track of that (can't see the trees because of the forest). The thing which bothers me is that for a lot of games where there are armor sets where the female set is just... Well made to be scantily clothed and loses all believably...
@Kouji_San Don't forget about Bayonetta. That seven-foot-tall Amazon Witch is one of the few cases where her strutting about in a tight bodysuit while shedding clothing for her special attacks actually felt in-character for her.
And while we're on the topic of female protagonists, don't forget the Shantae games!
As for why they're not implementing the female avatar right now... Can't fault the designers for prioritizing making a stable game first. Yeah, it's a bit of an "Oh bother" for those who want to play a female, but the female avatar IS coming, and probably won't take a long time to put in. I mean it's a first-person game with no dialogue from the player and no cutscenes that focus on the player, so from my limited (read: Nonexistent) understanding of programming it shouldn't be difficult to plug in the option.
When I read that, I felt like I was slapped in the face, cliche as it may sound. That man had the audacity to tell me that I did not matter
If you got that over the lack of a couple of higher pitched grunts and a character model we really need to work on your self-esteem. Really, have a hug and a cup of tea.
I'm still in favor of making the character in neutral ground and could go either way, but I don't really know of how much work it would actually be to implement a different character model. Not a programmer by any means, but a single new model shouldn't take that much time. It would push back an update by... a week? Tops? I can't think of any animations off the top of my head that would be nullified with the different proportions. There certainly aren't any parts in the game as-is that demands the character be any particular sex. Recording the new vocals and grunts I wouldn't think would take that long... The coding is probably the more difficult part since there's a new choice branch right at the beginning. Anyone with coding experience care to take a stab at how long that might take?
I'm pretty baffled at the idea that this would take awhile. I accept that I could be entirely and completely wrong, but... it seems relatively simple (as simple as things get in such things, at any rate)
I find the arguments over so little to be hyperbolic to be entirely honest, but if it really is that upsetting to a good portion of the fanbase I think the devs would be wise to make that change.
Equality? Equality would mean a male only protagonist is fine. And a female only protagonist is fine. And a choice with both is fine. They are all equal.
What you want is representation. A quota. And quotas are by their very nature discriminatory, not equal.
Argue with game design concepts, not ideology. There should be no politically motivated restriction or requirements for creativity, no thoughtcrimes.
An argument is player choice, because choice matters and empowering the players matters.
An Argument is immersion, because it matters in a first person game, it matters even more in a VR game and Subnautica lives through its atmosphere which is experienced by the player through immersion.
These are arguments. The other is politically motivated shamebullying.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm a male player who frequently plays female characters because, well, chicks rock. But that's just my thing. I can understand how some female players would like to play their own gender, so from a customer satisfaction point of view, it will be a wise move when it's implemented.
When I read that, I felt like I was slapped in the face, cliche as it may sound. That man had the audacity to tell me that I did not matter
If you got that over the lack of a couple of higher pitched grunts and a character model we really need to work on your self-esteem. Really, have a hug and a cup of tea.
Don't be a patronizing jerk talking about things you don't understand or want to understand because that would inconvenience you. If someone opens up, that's not invitation to go in for the attack.
If you got that over the lack of a couple of higher pitched grunts and a character model we really need to work on your self-esteem. Really, have a hug and a cup of tea.
*sigh* You completely failed to see the bigger picture there and decided to go for a patronizing, personal jab instead. Congratulations and thanks for proving my point, I guess. Of course this entire debacle is not about my self-esteem being hurt, but about women in general being treated as second class customers by the vast majority of game developers. So no, it is not an argument over a little thing, and the attitude the SN dev had expressed is the prime example here - his entire approach to the subject and the way he had handled it in social media, were disgusting and offensive, and there's no real excuse for that.
Anyway, I do not wish to tangle myself into yet another argument about this. We've already had one topic about it here on the forum, it was not a pleasant read, looks like this one won't be either. I've said my piece like everyone else has, and with that I bow out of the discussion.
Hehe yeah, some people would still find the big man a sex beast though
Also just throw that "female protagonists in video games" into Google, you're bound to find many more awesome games. These were just of the top of my head. Borderlands also has a few chars with Lilith, Maya, Nisha, Athena and Gaige
I'm a lifelong gamer. When I was a little girl, video games were still a rather new thing, and I found myself confused and dismayed that games with female protagonists were practically nonexistent. All of the most popular franchises of the era invariably had male protagonists. Of course, adults would say it was because usually only little boys play video games, not little girls, or that if the protagonist was a girl, then boys wouldn't play it. Kids would say, it was because girls can't be heroes, period, because girls are weak and stupid.
The industry has evolved a great deal since then, but we still have a long way to go. I just want male to stop being the "default" sex, because there shouldn't be a "default" at all.
Subnautica is slated to be able to choose the gender of your character after v1.0 hits; also: here
And thus, we've ruined what could have been a great discussion.
It started off as calmly exchanging opinions about this choice, and I participated somewhat in this, but in typical internet-fashion it has devolved into anarchy, ranging from personal insults to god knows what else (honestly I haven't cared enough to check).
One day, I swear to god we will have a proper discussion on this here internet and not let it descend into an argument like it always does. I thought this could be it; we were calmly discussing what had been labelled a "touchy subject" by a lot of people, and I found it a welcome change of pace from what conversations of that calibre usually ended up being.
Obviously I was wrong to think it could remain civil for more than a week. Either we can back away from this thread, like I'm about to do, or we can start discussing this in a calm and actually acceptable manner.
Yeah, If you could choose your gender it would be cool.
He's got the right idea; it was never about equality in the first place, just more options, letting people who wanted to play as a woman play as a woman.
Someone brought up equality and the internet latched on... as expected...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2017
I feel that's a bit over dramatic though
The thing is, they outsource sound design, and do have the model (which could be rigged to the current animation graphs and tweaked a bit for more feminine movement?). Adding the character option in there shouldn't pose that much of a programming headache what with the programming gods up in here working on the game. Slap some rudimentary GUI on there (heck placeholder stuff would suffice...)
All in all... That cannot be a job of more than a week few days... As opposed to the ongoing performance and bug fixing that was compared to it on a certain dev info outlet?
@Calarand77 can ya link me up please, I kinda wanna see what was written... Mostly because I have this feeling that is was meant to be sarcastic, which never really translates well on touchy subjects with just text
Comments
/thread
Intersex is genetics. Genetics defines our looks, our gender, and our susceptibility towards certain health problems. It is a combination of genetics and environment that defines who we are attracted to, what we define as, our skills, and other aspects of our lives. It is getting to the point where gender is only important in reproduction. Some of the new "genders" are due to people conflicting with social norms of commonly accepted male and female behaviour.
Creating more and more "genders" is just a method of segregating us into more groups instead of uniting together. It creates an us vs. them attitude that should be avoided at all costs since we see evidence of that happening with certain people ignoring someone else's opinion due to the ignored person being a white cis male. It shouldn't matter that people are separated into gender, race, country, and sexual preference. The only group that should matter is that we are all humans and when alien life is discovered, the only group that really matters is that we are all Sapient Lifeforms.
Further commentary from the same dev only made the situation worse. He said that - I paraphrase here, because I honestly can't be arsed to look for this verbal garbage to quote - female model was not necessary, not relevant, and would not bring anything new into the game. When I read that, I felt like I was slapped in the face, cliche as it may sound. That man had the audacity to tell me that I did not matter. That my enjoyment of the game, my immersion, were somehow less important than that of the men. That was the one and only time I regretted buying Subnautica and giving my hard earned money to the man who would disrespect me so damn much.
Anyway, in all the arguments I've seen so far, the important thing to remember is that it is easy for men to write female player models off as unimportant, because men have ALWAYS been represented in 99% of the games. Male is pretty much the default gender (and not only in games!), and in the extremely rare cases where there is only a female protagonist to play as - like in Tomb Raider, for example - the model is hyper-sexualized to appeal to the MALE eye and make it entertaining for them. All the skin tight outfits, skimpy armors, and giant, gravity-defying boobs are there for men to enjoy, not for women to feel included. Sad but true.
Perhaps that's why part of me is gleefully enjoying the infamous "dong slider" and pecs physics in Conan Exiles now. For once I can create a hyper-sexualized MALE character and have a silly giggle at his equipment flapping on the wind like a banner of masculinity... I'm not sure it's a step in the right direction for games, but at least there is a female model there as well, available right from the start, and in the very early access stage of the game's development, at that. Enough said.
You're thinking of sex. A person's sex is genetic. Gender is a social identifier referring to a collection of behaviors that a culture views as being masculine or feminine that is actually independent of their naughty bits.
For the people saying "There's no need for a female character" I just have one question - Who's it hurting? I'm not a developer, but given that the Trello seems to HAVE a model for a female character already, why NOT throw her in for those who want it? It's not like Subnautica's narrative is so tightly tied to the player's sex that it suffers for having a female character. It's not like The Witcher, where making Geralt a woman would require a LOT of changes to the narrative.
Here's a fun game. Name a female scientist - who's name is not Marie Curie.
Don't get me wrong, Subnautica does plenty of things right. The voice of the PDA is at least female, as well as the base, and we do have Marguerit - but what of the rest of the Aurora survivors? I don't recall any of them being female.
It's a little depressing that a game about exploring the *ocean* - won't have a female option until release. If anything the devs are missing out on potential market share. The paper I linked earlier shows that 57% of undergrad oceanography majors are female, so they're not addressing a significant potential market.
But that being said, it's easy to implement, just another 3D model and sound effects for being hurt. It making only a little difference is not a proper argument when it still makes some, and it's not that much work so there are no real arguments against it.
The bottom line is, yes you should add it (this should be a poll)
Ps: TBH without all this debate about a female character, I wouldn't probably even be sure about the character's gender. Aside from the trailer, there's nothing that would tell for sure if the character is male or female. There are some features of course that are more common with males (for example the lower voice when hurt), but they're not that uncommon with females.
Not to disprove you, just listing bad ass woman/girls in game
- Jade from Beyond Good and Evil was a good female protagonist, that game is also highly underrated
- Chell from Portal a kinda Gordon Freeman style silent protagonist bad ass
- Faith from Mirrors Edge
- Jill from Resident Evil
- Ellie from The last of Us
- Aya from Parasite Eve
- I think Dirty Bomb does a fine job with Proxy, Sparks, Aura, Kira, Nader and Aimee
- As does Overwatch with Pharah. Sombra, Tracer, Mei, Widowmaker, D.Va, Ana, Mercy and Symmetra
- -And then there's TF2
- Zoey and Rochelle, L4D
- And since we're here... Natural Selection 2!
Also yes I do count Lara Croft as one of these awesome characters. Sure she's a damn fine looking lady and they use that as a selling point, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as it doesn't change the fact that she is a pure bad ass with a cool backstory
Metroid was a bit of a funny one, we all thought she was a man and than came off the helmet.
It's not just woman, men are also over the top good looking for the most part (not just in games), there's just more of em so you kinda lose track of that (can't see the trees because of the forest). The thing which bothers me is that for a lot of games where there are armor sets where the female set is just... Well made to be scantily clothed and loses all believably...
Yep. I studied Medieval history and when you combine the ridiculous female armor in games with the equally ridiculous impractical or just plain dangerous armor even the males wear, well, it's a recipe for one very angry English Infidel.
THERES NOT GONNA BE CO-OP
Thanks for the list, I wasn't aware of many of your female-only protagonist games, and totally forgot about Chell from Portal (shame on me!).
I'd pay a dollar for DLC that let you play as an overweight Scotty from the original Star Trek movies.
Fat guy in a wetsuit, coming through!
Also just throw that "female protagonists in video games" into Google, you're bound to find many more awesome games. These were just of the top of my head. Borderlands also has a few chars with Lilith, Maya, Nisha, Athena and Gaige
And while we're on the topic of female protagonists, don't forget the Shantae games!
As for why they're not implementing the female avatar right now... Can't fault the designers for prioritizing making a stable game first. Yeah, it's a bit of an "Oh bother" for those who want to play a female, but the female avatar IS coming, and probably won't take a long time to put in. I mean it's a first-person game with no dialogue from the player and no cutscenes that focus on the player, so from my limited (read: Nonexistent) understanding of programming it shouldn't be difficult to plug in the option.
It's a game that makes you go "um wtf... Oh well, sure why not..." -that is gud
If you got that over the lack of a couple of higher pitched grunts and a character model we really need to work on your self-esteem. Really, have a hug and a cup of tea.
I'm still in favor of making the character in neutral ground and could go either way, but I don't really know of how much work it would actually be to implement a different character model. Not a programmer by any means, but a single new model shouldn't take that much time. It would push back an update by... a week? Tops? I can't think of any animations off the top of my head that would be nullified with the different proportions. There certainly aren't any parts in the game as-is that demands the character be any particular sex. Recording the new vocals and grunts I wouldn't think would take that long... The coding is probably the more difficult part since there's a new choice branch right at the beginning. Anyone with coding experience care to take a stab at how long that might take?
I'm pretty baffled at the idea that this would take awhile. I accept that I could be entirely and completely wrong, but... it seems relatively simple (as simple as things get in such things, at any rate)
I find the arguments over so little to be hyperbolic to be entirely honest, but if it really is that upsetting to a good portion of the fanbase I think the devs would be wise to make that change.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm a male player who frequently plays female characters because, well, chicks rock. But that's just my thing. I can understand how some female players would like to play their own gender, so from a customer satisfaction point of view, it will be a wise move when it's implemented.
Don't be a patronizing jerk talking about things you don't understand or want to understand because that would inconvenience you. If someone opens up, that's not invitation to go in for the attack.
Anyway, I do not wish to tangle myself into yet another argument about this. We've already had one topic about it here on the forum, it was not a pleasant read, looks like this one won't be either. I've said my piece like everyone else has, and with that I bow out of the discussion.
▲ I did.
It started off as calmly exchanging opinions about this choice, and I participated somewhat in this, but in typical internet-fashion it has devolved into anarchy, ranging from personal insults to god knows what else (honestly I haven't cared enough to check).
One day, I swear to god we will have a proper discussion on this here internet and not let it descend into an argument like it always does. I thought this could be it; we were calmly discussing what had been labelled a "touchy subject" by a lot of people, and I found it a welcome change of pace from what conversations of that calibre usually ended up being.
Obviously I was wrong to think it could remain civil for more than a week. Either we can back away from this thread, like I'm about to do, or we can start discussing this in a calm and actually acceptable manner.
He's got the right idea; it was never about equality in the first place, just more options, letting people who wanted to play as a woman play as a woman.
Someone brought up equality and the internet latched on... as expected...
The thing is, they outsource sound design, and do have the model (which could be rigged to the current animation graphs and tweaked a bit for more feminine movement?). Adding the character option in there shouldn't pose that much of a programming headache what with the programming gods up in here working on the game. Slap some rudimentary GUI on there (heck placeholder stuff would suffice...)
All in all... That cannot be a job of more than a week few days... As opposed to the ongoing performance and bug fixing that was compared to it on a certain dev info outlet?
@Calarand77 can ya link me up please, I kinda wanna see what was written... Mostly because I have this feeling that is was meant to be sarcastic, which never really translates well on touchy subjects with just text
I just... Dammit Kouji!